All I need to see (St. Louis Shooting)

[_Blue_]

Martin clearly draws an object from his waistband and points it at the officer in the same stance one would use if pointing a gun. A gun was recovered from the scene. The officer said Martin was pointing a gun. Martin has a history of armed robbery and armed criminal action.

Even if it wasn't a gun, which it was, the shooting would still have been justified. The courts have ruled again and again that when someone displays an object in a manner which would indicate to a reasonable person that said object was a gun, deadly force is authorized.

Just because men like Oscar Grant and Eric Garner were brutalized doesn't magically mean every officer involved shooting is criminal. There are still plenty of violent, brutal criminals on our streets. We do a disservice to victims of police brutality by blending their victimization with lawful, legal and necessary use of deadly force. It discredits the protests and protestors. It gives the police unions ammunition to paint us all with the same brush.

Support the police when they're right. Hold their feet to the fire when they're wrong. Leave the conspiracy theories to the right wing nuts.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[helpmetohelpyou]

1. It's a gun

[MrMickeysMom]

219. Well...

Case closed then. But, I gotta tell you… it looks more like you got a peace sign there…

[alcibiades_mystery]

2. Welcome to DU

[lame54]

4. even if that cigar is blurry as fuck?...

funny how you use the word "clearly"

nothing clear about this gif

[helpmetohelpyou]

8. It's drawn and pointed , he has a record of carrying an illegal gun and a history of violence

This was a bad guy

[Live and Learn]

77. Actually, he didn't have a record carrying a gun. He was never charged

and is therefor presumed innocent. Good guy, bad guy is pretty subjective and a bit ridiculous in my opinion.

That said, what the cameras depict do seem to indicate that the officer had little choice but to shoot.

[Travelman]

150. He wasn't?

I'd like to see the evidence of that. Lots and lots of other reports clearly state that he had multiple weapons charges in the past, as well as at least one charge of armed robbery.

[Live and Learn]

157. See the article attached to post 1 of the following:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026003552#post1

[Travelman]

158. Interesting.

A bit of a technicality, since McCullough's office apparently just had not gotten around to charging him yet on the armed robbery, but I'll certainly concede that he was not actually charged with any weapons crime so far as the present evidence indicates.


Thanks for the link.

[Live and Learn]

185. Or they decided there wasn't enough evidence.

Charges like that are usually done right away not years later.

[GGJohn]

9. You can clearly see that the object he's pointing at the officer is in the shape of a gun.

[lame54]

14. there's that word clearly again

[GGJohn]

21. Let me rephrase that.

I can clearly see that the object is in the shape of a gun.

[lame54]

87. no you can't

[GGJohn]

88. Yes, I can.

Last edited Fri Dec 26, 2014, 12:09 AM - Edit history (1)

The object in relation to his right hand is exactly how you would point a gun at someone.
Deny it all you want, but this definitely appears to be a gun pointed at the officer and that would make it a justified homicide.

[uppityperson]

138. thank you for clarifying that it is not that the shape of the gun is what makes you think that but

that the pose is "exactly how you would point a gun at someone".

[LanternWaste]

228. Your faith in the unknown is impressive.

Your faith in the unknown is impressive.

[GGJohn]

231. I would seem that I was justified in my faith.

Several witnesses were interviewed. They have confirmed that Mr. Martin was armed and did attempt to fire his weapon at the officer.

The individual who was with Martin at the time confirmed the same. He told police that he fled for fear of his life. He didn’t know if he would be shot.

http://fox2now.com/2014/12/30/update-berkeley-mayor-to-hold-news-conference-on-officer-involved-shooting/

[LiberalElite]

22. FWIW the cop wasn't looking at the gif nt

[lame54]

89. the point is...

what exactly the cop was looking at is not revealed in this gif because it is unclear to us

we would have had a clear vid if the cop didn't turn off both his cameras

[GGJohn]

5. That's the best video of the shooting I've seen so far,

and there's no doubt it's a gun, you don't pull a cell phone and point it like a gun at a cop.
You can even see the object is shaped like a gun.
Yeah, I'm going to say it was a justifiable homicide.

[helpmetohelpyou]

12. There's a post where a DU member froze the screen shot and blew it up a little

It's a gun

[Hutzpa]

6. If he pulled a gun on the cop and pointed it at him

then the outcome is obviously going to result in an outcome that will not be favourable to him, besides it is a sign of a sociopath as no one in their right mind will pull a gun on a police officer unless you're an harden criminal or someone who is paying his wages.

[randome]

7. Did you really need to start your own thread about it?

I agree with what you said but it seems like starting yet another thread on the subject is a way to shove it in the faces of those who see it differently.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[seveneyes]

18. The ability to see things differently

Is an uncontrolled ability and should remain as one. Denomination will eventually resolve to one. Until then we must all decide which is real and which is an illusion, or both.

[951-Riverside]

10. Show me the unedited/uncropped video then we can talk "Blue" n/t

[treestar]

11. It is getting weird on DU I've seen stubbornness that the cop must always be wrong

just as unreasonable as those stubbornly insisting they are always right. One poster here even said snidely that some people actually want you to consider each case on a case by case basis, as if that was evil authoritarianism - to even consider the cop might be right in a case. Got jumped down my throat that of course I must support Wilson, etc., if I even questioned that cops aren't evil all the time.

That cop is lucky he's alive, too, because the ultimate victim of the shooting disobeyed the concept that you aren't supposed to draw it unless you are going to shoot to kill as soon as you do. That "rule" is causing of lot of these shootings to happen and be fatal.

[pintobean]

13. That cop is very lucky.

I'm guessing that the gun either jammed, or he unknowingly had the safety on. PD said there was 1 in the chamber and 5 in the magazine.

[Duckhunter935]

17. My guess is safety

Easy to forget in a panic, one reason why Glock can be better in a panic.

[exboyfil]

84. My opinion is from Breaking Bad

.38 Snub Nose Revolver:

If you can't get it done with five, then you're into spraying and praying, in which case I wouldn't count on another six closing the deal.
You load that with 158 grain hollow points instead of your standard wad cutters.
It's got plenty of stopping power.
Can't get more dependable than a wheel gun.

Of course I would have no intention at pointing it at a police officer. Its purpose is last chance self defense.

[Chemisse]

73. Sometimes - and maybe even most of the time - the cop shooting the victim is justified.

It's important to see the areas of gray. Let's not join the Republicans in seeing the world in black and white - and in shaping the facts to fit our agendas.

There are plenty of actual injustices with cops killing unarmed blacks, without our creating them.

[treestar]

91. Exactly

Each case has its own facts. There is a problem with cop racism but when you're claiming they plant guns in cases where the guy did have a gun and pulled it on them, you do nothing to help with that problem.

[shaayecanaan]

132. once this place seizes on a narrative it generally doesnt let go

I think the best example of that was the lesbian waitress who claimed that she'd been denied a tip by a homophobic family. Even after the family in question produced a credit card statement showing that they did pay a tip, most of DU still didn't like to admit that the lesbian in question was a bullshit artist, and came up with some fairly unlikely scenarios to try and explain the discrepancies.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014657505

[onecaliberal]

15. Why wasn't a call for help placed after the

Police shot the guy.

[shaayecanaan]

119. Because he was dead

and therefore no help was required.

[onecaliberal]

128. Not according to his girlfriend....

[Travelman]

151. Who wasn't there.

Every report I've seen clearly states that EMS was on the scene within just a few minutes.

[uppityperson]

16. I guess "clearly" means something different to you than it does to me, that is not a clear

picture in any way.

All you need to make a judgement is a fuzzy video and a police report? Thank you for letting us know that about you.

[giftedgirl77]

19. Bullshit, that grainy ass picture shows nothing of the sort...

& I have experience with both firearms & being shot at both with pitsols & fuckin rifles. That isn't even a firing stance unless you want to fall on your ass afterwards, not to mention generally when someone plans on shooting at another armed person they plan on that person also firing back so they pull a gun while trying to run to take cover at the same time.

You & your 21 posts with your only 2 reccs for OPs that are both for articles involving the death of another young black male, not to mention this bullshit OP looks more like an agenda than anything else.

[_Blue_]

20. haha

How do you explain the video of him drawing and pointing a gun shaped dark colored object, and a dark colored hi-point 9mm was recovered, along with his criminal history of ARMED robbery and ARMED criminal action?

It's OK for the police to be right, you know? Even if 5% of the police deadly force incidents aren't justified, that's 5% too many. Focus on those, not the 95% of necessary ones.

[marble falls]

177. Unfortunately you've got the percentages upside down.

[_Blue_]

178. Oh jeez

[joeglow3]

213. Wow

Just wow

[GGJohn]

23. I too have extensive training and experience in the use of firearms, pistol and rifle,

and I can see very clearly that the object he's pointing at the cop is in the shape of a handgun, and the stance, what makes you come to the conclusion that man even knows what a shooting stance is?

You think a big guy like that is going to fall on his ass firing a handgun?
That statement alone makes me question your claim of experience with firearms.

[giftedgirl77]

26. You see what you want, as you have in every cop

shooting thus far. As far as you've been concerned they have all been justified in their actions.

[GGJohn]

29. No, I see what is obvious to any fair thinking person.,

And you're wrong about every cop shooting being justified, I believe that the Brown shooting wasn't justified, I don't believe the Rice shooting was justified, I don't believe the Garner killing was justified, however, this shooting was clearly justified.

And what about your ridiculous statement that his shooting stance would have knocked him on his ass?
Want to modify that obviously false statement?
Even someone that size shooting a 12 ga shotgun wouldn't put someone on their ass.

[giftedgirl77]

99. He had a grocery bag still in his right hand, he brought

his left leg up to his right, right before he lifted his arm. If that was a gun (which I still don't believe) it would have knocked him off of balance. For ppl under 40 on his ass is just jargon, I really don't give a shit how you take it. I'm not going to argue silly ass semantics with you.

[GGJohn]

106. A fucking 9mm won't knock a guy that size off balance,

you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Now I really know you are clueless about firearms and stances.

[giftedgirl77]

110. You have no idea how big that guy is...

& your opinion doesn't mean jack to me.

[_Blue_]

113. Does it matter?

The recoil from a 9mm pistol wouldn't knock down any human being.

[Travelman]

153. No kidding.

This whole argument is a farce. My ten-year-old niece could easily shoot a 9mm without having any problem whatsoever with the recoil.

[GGJohn]

117. You can tell by the video he's an average sized man,

and no 9mm is going to rock someone his size, in that stance, off balance, you don't know what you're talking about.
I carried and qualified a full sized Barretta 9mm for years in the US Army and it has a minimal recoil compared to the .45 I carried when I first entered the service.

Yeah, you don't care about my opinion because you know you've been shown to know jack shit about firearms and stances.

[giftedgirl77]

121. Ha ha ha, funny you were a fuckin officer weren't u?

Well that explains plenty. US Army here as well over 10 yrs but enlisted. Fuckin figures. Did you just carry it around & take it out to qualify because that doesn't really count as using it.

[GGJohn]

125. No, I was an Attack Helicopter pilot with over 40 years in.

I started as a WO., shot down twice in Vietnam, the sidearm was part of my survival kit, I was expected to be very proficient in the use of it, which I was.

[giftedgirl77]

134. That is one point I will apologize for mocking u for.

[GGJohn]

135. No problem and I apologize for getting a little too hot under the collar with you,

I'm sure you're a good person.
Happy Holidays and a Happy New Year to you and your family.

[giftedgirl77]

136. To u as well...

[Logical]

120. FWIW, I think you have been pretty fair in your history on cop issues. You seem to call them out....

when they deserve to be called out.

[GGJohn]

122. Thank you.

I remember the Tamir Rice shooting and I was supportive of the cops until the video was released and once I saw it, I immediately changed my mind and called it an execution.

[Logical]

123. I agree this current shooting is a good one. Cop had no choice. nt

[treestar]

92. There's the accusation

It is simply not true. Some cases are and some are not.

[GGJohn]

24. So fucking what if he only has 21 posts?

How is that relevant?

[_Blue_]

44. Apparently, my post count is directly proportional to the likelihood it was a firearm.

At least in the eyes of those who choose conspiracy over reality.

[GGJohn]

47. It would seem so.

My post count is almost equal to hers, so you would think, by her standards, I would have more credibility?

But back to the video, that is clearly a gun he's pointing, the position of his right hand in relation to the object is very typical of someone pointing a gun, unless it's like gang bangers do by pointing it sideways.

[giftedgirl77]

55. No, your post count & reccs are directly related to the

deaths of young black males.

[GGJohn]

57. Stop, plz just stop.

You ever heard the saying: It's better for one to keep quiet and let people think you're a fool than to open one's mouth and prove them right?

[giftedgirl77]

66. So now I'm a fool for pointing out the obvious??

His/her posts & reccs clearly prove my point. They are desperate to spin this pro cop with no substantial evidence & well as far as you go, that's always your narrative.

[GGJohn]

70. Weren't you a low count poster at one time?

At this point, I have a hard time believing you know anything about firearms and stances, especially after your ridiculous statement that his stance would put him on his ass if that was a gun.

[pintobean]

81. She still is. It's a matter of perspective

but it doesn't matter.

[GGJohn]

83. Yep, I still consider myself a low post count member.

I'm still a babe in the woods compared to most on DU.

[840high]

86. groan

[840high]

74. Welcome to DU.

[NickB79]

25. Not a firing stance, you say?

I've fired many handgun rounds using this stance. Hell, I've even done it using the exact handgun this guy used (Hi-Point 9mm), and didn't fall on my ass. It's a 9mm, after all, not a .500 S&W.

The young man's stance, while not perfect, was clearly a stance you ONLY assume when you are firing a pistol.

[giftedgirl77]

27. and that's not at all how he was standing...

That's a proper firing stance. Thanks for proving my point.

[NickB79]

28. Not at all? Bullshit

Was it textbook? Nope. Too much bend at the elbow, body too squared to the target (should angle away to present a smaller target for return fire). I'd flunk him if I was evaluating his form.

However, was it clearly a shooting stance similar to the one I posted? Yep. It's pretty unique to anyone familiar with firearms.

And you've already been shown to be full of disinfo when you claimed he'd "fall on his ass" for firing a puny 9mm.

Tell you what: tell me what other things you do in a gas station parking lot that resembles so closely the position you take when you're drawing and pointing a firearm?

[GGJohn]

30. I'm calling bull on her knowledge of firearms and stances.

[giftedgirl77]

33. Well it's a good thing I don't have shit to prove to you then

huh big guy?

[GGJohn]

34. You have nothing to prove because you have nothing to offer in the way of firearms experience

or shooting stances.

[pintobean]

35. Well, some people are claiming that it's a cell phone

in his hand. Maybe he whipped it out, extended it out quickly, and asked the officer if he'd like to talk to Mama.

[giftedgirl77]

46. Orrrr maybe he whipped it out to film his encounter...

with Mr. Officer, especially if said officer is known in the area. I wonder where Antonio's cell phone is since the officer conveniently forgot his bodycam?

[pintobean]

50. Logic and probability have to be suspended

to get there.

[giftedgirl77]

59. Really, because the need to film police encounters as

in this country is unnecessary? Please, I installed a dashcam with mic in my son's truck solely because of the police. Any interaction with law enforcement it gets turned on.

[pintobean]

63. Well, Mr. Martin wasn't whipping out and pointing a camera

at officer friendly.

[giftedgirl77]

69. Well of course he wasn't, says almighty pintobean...

The great decider of all cop shootings

[treestar]

95. Pintobean has as much right to an opinion as you

You're the one being snide to people for questioning yours.

[giftedgirl77]

101. No one said they didn't. eom

[pintobean]

114. I have an opinion of

the word "gifted" too, but that's a story for another day.

[pintobean]

225. Says his friend who was with him

Several witnesses were interviewed. They have confirmed that Mr. Martin was armed and did attempt to fire his weapon at the officer.

The individual who was with Martin at the time confirmed the same. He told police that he fled for fear of his life. He didn’t know if he would be shot.

http://fox2now.com/2014/12/30/update-berkeley-mayor-to-hold-news-conference-on-officer-involved-shooting/

[GGJohn]

56. Yeah, because people always whip out their cellphones, point them at police like a gun

to record the encounter.

[treestar]

94. that might be an issue worth considering

Still there was a gun there (unless you are claiming they planted it).

[giftedgirl77]

40. A shooting stance huh?

Not only does he square his chest but his feet as well. You can see him bring his back foot in and together with the other foot, not a shooting stance. EVER. Not even for an inexperienced shooter. You can argue the shit all you want to try and make it fit your narrative but it's not there & taking pot shots about what you think my experience is to try & degenerate my argument is just pathetic.

[doc03]

65. A 9mm doesn't have a very powerful recoil, it is not like he is shooting

a 12 ga shotgun or 44 magnum.

[GGJohn]

75. I can take the same stance as that guy in the video and shoot my .45 w/o it

putting me on my ass, now my .454 Cassell, I have to hold with both hands and brace myself, otherwise the damn thing will kick my ass.

[cwydro]

97. You are right; I'm a small woman.

And I've fired a 9mm and never fell down. As a small girl, I fired a large handgun my dad had. Had a hell of a kick to it. I was about 9. He immediately corrected my stance. (several times lol)

But I did not fall down.

That guy looked to me like a dumbass pulling a gun and trying to shoot a cop.

Pretty sure that happened.

[TorchTheWitch]

72. while you and your less than 2000 posts are so superior?

Pot, meet kettle.

I have no experience with firearms whatsoever. However, I do have common sense. And common sense says that a criminal that's stupid enough to pull a gun on a cop isn't going to be shooting while running and isn't concerned about some kind of particular shooting stance to begin with since the object of the stupid decision to pull and point the gun in the first place is to kill the cop as quickly and accurately as possible which is far more likely to happen without bothering to waste time moving into a perfect shooting stance (if said criminal has any clue what that is to begin with which isn't likely) and isn't going to be shooting on the run because even a nincompoop knows that they're likely to be more accurate the closer and more still they are when firing.

We already know the guy was a nitwit because:

A) he'd already been caught in a multitude of crimes even over a very brief criminal career (good criminals don't get caught),

B) he was stupid enough to pull a gun on a cop in the first place which is basically a death wish,

C) was so stupid to imagine that he'd likely get the drop on a cop to begin with in the circumstances, and

D) had he wanted to accurately and quickly shoot and kill a cop and get away with it he'd have taken cover FIRST, had a planned escape route, and shot at the officer when said officer had no clue he was there with a gun intent on shooting him.

He's dead because he was a violent criminal and a barking idiot.

And instead of asking how it is that an 18 year old kid becomes a violent criminal with a gun in the first place - and NO ONE likes a violent criminal - the cop hate brigade is turning themselves inside out trying to deny the obvious and make this violent criminal some kind of martyr because they just can't stand it that a cop had to face the danger of being killed by a violent criminal and thankfully got the drop on them... that just throws a wrench in the nutty agenda that there are no violent criminals other than cops, and every one of them is a psychopath that just can't wait to go to work every day so they can blow some totally innocent person's head off. The cop hate brigade here has also systematically ignored the hundred of protesters that showed some of which turned it into a riot by blowing off explosives right next to gas tanks, threw rocks and bricks at police officers that sent at least two of them to the hospital, set the QT across the street on fire and otherwise attacked officers just as they've ignored every other instance of violence during protests since such incidents first started in Ferguson. Even at that time there were EXCUSES here for that behavior with people saying so what it's just stuff as if it's such a simple thing that completely innocent people had their businesses destroyed, people lost their jobs, had their cars destroyed, etc. by violent shits getting off on making mayhem.

And to top if off if the dead violent criminal was a white kid there would be little to nothing mentioned here and absolute silence if the dead violent criminal was white and the officer black or other minority. We even had someone here complain that when it's a white dude with a gun the police just talk them down using a video of a white guy that DID NOT draw or point a gun at anyone much less at an officer. Never mind the statistics that show that there have been far more white people killed by police than black in the first place, and never mind that the Berkeley police is over 50% black including command positions.

Nobody want to talk about the very real stupidity and danger of no-knock raids and the TRULY innocent people effected by them yet fall all over themselves to try to ignore the obvious in a circumstance where a violent criminal pointed a gun at a cop and got himself killed just as they did with another violent criminal that shot at a police officer and DU was in an uproar of stupidity claiming he was only carrying a sandwich and never mind the gun that was recovered or the ballistic testing that showed he fired at the officer and once again completely ignored the instant protest that arrived where once again violent mayhem ensued. Even the cop hate brigade forgot all about that one seeing as how stupid it was to try to continue the complaints even when the local protesters bought a clue. While all along no one has given shit one about all the innocent people that lost their jobs, their property or their business because of this violence because there's violent criminals to make into martyrs. They even complain when other items of news showing up here like the very recent shootings at a convenience store in St. Louis where one person was killed and three others gravely injured that didn't involve police at all since then they'd have to once again face the fact that there are violent criminals about. And no surprise there wasn't a soul showing up protesting violent criminals.

[giftedgirl77]

93. Oh yeah? Fuckin 18 with soooooo many crimes but yet

still not in jail doesn't that seem a little fuckin odd. I am so happy I got all the gun humping, "thug" bashers on one sub thread. Goddamn right they threw rocks & bricks at the fuckin cops. You would to if every time a fuckin cop rolled up into your neighborhood someone got shot. The fuckin cop had a dashcam & bodycam in his car but somehow managed to have both off. Yet no one seems to thinks that's a fuckin issue.

All the self righteous cop worshipping is tired, especially from the white folks that don't know shit, from shit.

[Ace Rothstein]

100. It isn't odd at all.

The criminal justice system is loaded with repeat offenders. They are even more lenient with juveniles.

[giftedgirl77]

107. Not supposedly Armed Robbery as they claim the

victim committed as well as other violent crimes....Those generally aren't get out of jail free offenses, especially for a black male in MO. It kind of throws that bullshit argument out the window.

But of course we must push the narrative that he was violent...without any proof yet again.

[Ace Rothstein]

116. Based on everything I've read, it is difficult to conclude he was not violent.

He served time for assault, was arrested for armed robbery but not charged and pointed a gun at a cop. He's a violent criminal.

[giftedgirl77]

133. He was accused of armed robbery but never charged

which means as litte as he met the description of someone & as of right now the only proof of a gun is some grainy ass edited video released by the police.

That is not the description of a violent offender.

[freshwest]

226. Carrying a bag of groceries doesn't sound violent to me, either. n/t.

[Ace Rothstein]

229. Doesn't get much more violent than pointing a gun at someone.

Regardless of what else one is carrying.

[giftedgirl77]

235. You're making assumptions based on something you

do not know. He was previously accused of armed robbery, being accused of a crime doesn't mean shit. Especially when you're a young black male & I've already made myself perfectly clear about what I think about this bullshit ass gif that some want to swear proves this guy had a gun.

You can say please, please, please, all damn day it still doesn't make it true.

[GGJohn]

236. Well, it turns out those of us that said that video showed he was pointing a gun at the officer

were right, it's even confirmed by his friend that was with him and fled.

[giftedgirl77]

239. No, once again it turns out the cops are claiming...

they have witnesses.... Sounds familiar doesn't it?? When a witness comes out on their own (that isn't a witness #40) I'll believe. Until then fuck anything a cop that has another to protect has to say. Especially in Klan land.

[GGJohn]

240. None are so blind as those that won't see.

There were other witnesses that confirmed it, the friend that was with him confirmed it, the gun was found at the scene, there's video of Martin pointing the gun at the officer, What The Fuck else do you need?

If the friend hadn't told the cops that Martin pointed a gun, he would've come out after the presser and said the cops lied, he never said that, as would the other witnesses.

[pintobean]

241. Here is what you are calling Klan land

They represent a population that is about 80% AA. BPD is over 50% AA.
This isn't Ferguson.

[GGJohn]

243. Why is it so hard for you to admit you were wrong?

[Ace Rothstein]

238. Im not making any assumptions.

You must have missed today's news, unless the witnesses are also bullshit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026020959

Also, Martin had served time for assault which shows he had a violent past. You can say please, please, please all damn day it still doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[treestar]

103. In what neighborhood have there been people killed every time a cop rolls up?

It makes the news because it is unusual. And now you are justifying throwing rocks and bricks.

[shaayecanaan]

104. alert

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Let's be fair..."white folks who don't know shit from shit" is racist. Put any other race in that sentence, and you know it is wrong.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Dec 26, 2014, 02:14 AM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh horseshit. This "white racism" is beyond stupid. Geeeze.

Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I have my own fuckin opinions on the issue and have expressed them pretty fuckin forthrightly. Notwithstanding that, my fuckin posts have not been fuckin taken down so in the spirit of free fuckin speech I am inclined to permit the same fuckin indulgence here. Merry Christmas to all and to all a fuckin good night.

Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: When white privilege goes wrong. Clearly you don't know what racism is.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[giftedgirl77]

108. Thank you for posting this....

[shaayecanaan]

115. No fuckin problem nt

[Jackpine Radical]

227. Juror # 6?

Rude Pundit? Is that you?

[flvegan]

127. This was telling of several things. None of them good. n/t

[giftedgirl77]

202. It wasn't hate speech nor was it ever intended to be...

The problem is white people do not understand what it is like to be a dark skinned minority in this country & the shit we deal with on the daily with the cops. If they aren't shooting us, they are physically or verbally harassing us, or slamming us against cars or buildings, or just straight up treating us like shit for no goddamn reason.

That's where my comments came from.

[cwydro]

98. Thank you for this post.

Yes.

[giftedgirl77]

109. That was from the heart, people have no idea what we

live through.

[Jesus Malverde]

82. Street criminals often don't go to the range working on their stance...nt

[giftedgirl77]

90. No, they go other places...

We used to go out to the marshes... jesus christ.

[rakeeb]

186. "That isn't even a firing stance"

That is your evidence that the object in the video is not a hand gun?

Regardless of what you believe you see or don't see in the video, I am curious as to why you would believe that any 18 year old civilian in illegal possession of a hand gun would know anything about a shooter stance; isosceles, weaver, boxer, retention or otherwise?

[NewDeal_Dem]

223. I can't tell what's going on in that clip at all. I don't see how anyone could base a judgement on

it.

[justiceischeap]

31. There's been a second angle released that shows what could have been a cell phone

Here's a close-up image taken from the end of the video which lends some credence to this theory.

https://mobile.twitter.com/mr_mookie/status/548000708117946368/photo/1

[Niceguy1]

38. execpt that it was actually

A gun.

This shoot does appear to be justified.

For the record, it doesnt mean I think that any other police involved shooting was. Some people have trouble with the case by case concept.

[X_Digger]

51. Huh? If you look at the video, the 'screen' in the screen cap is a circle of light from a flashlight

Between 1:17 and 1:19 -- you see the 'screen' on the ground- and then it moves away because it was obviously the beam from a flashlight on the ground.

Derp. Someone had to work hard to find one frame that could plausibly be a screen but intentionally ignore the rest of the video.

[ManiacJoe]

64. All that video shows is the friend running away

after the shooting starts.

[Historic NY]

102. He ran like hell into the store.....

obviously he didn't want to stick around and was taken by surprise.

[Historic NY]

112. What about the third video...

Why would the officer retreat backwards?

[justiceischeap]

129. Because he's scared

The first shot hit Antonio Martin and he went down, the second shot went astray and the third shot hit the cruiser tire (I think that happened when he fell down--but I could actually have shots 2 and 3's order mixed up).

I'm not saying Martin didn't pull a gun, I'm just offering an alternate theory based on how someone else views the video--it's a discussion that's going to come up (and already has in the Twitterverse).

The screen capture taken from the video looks like a cell phone (the color temperature is different for that sliver of light than the flashlight) and since most people are conditioned to think that all black males are armed and dangerous, it would make sense the police officer is scared if Martin "drew" a cell phone instead of a gun.

For me personally, I don't see the gain in drawing a gun on a cop and not firing it. Unless it was suicide by cop, or Martin was attempting to tape the incident with a cell phone, why pull a gun and not fire?

With both cases in St. Louis County we are being led to believe that all black males that confront the police are actually actively attacking the police even though logic would dictate that isn't the safest course of action for a person of color--especially in that area. So if you're going to pull a gun on a cop, you better damn well fire it or expect to be killed (hence, suicide by cop).

PS... I am not advocating that police officers be shot, I'm just questioning why someone would pull a gun on a cop and not fire. Martin had the upper-hand in that quick draw situation.

[GGJohn]

131. An alternative theory could be that he attempted to fire but failed, in the heat of the moment,

to dis-engage the safety, remember, this was a Hi Point 9mm with a safety on the left side of the gun, it may have been on safe and he failed to release it, which was a lucky thing for the officer.

[juxtaposed]

137. this is the best angle I've seen, the young man raises phone or gun cop pulls his gun shoots tire wh

ile backing up in a defensive posture still shooting hitting young man and then cop falling on his ass and dropping what appears to be his gun sliding.
Now if cop just wanted to kill the person he would have not backed up b/c it was not a gun but a phone. The cop would then move forward while shooting?????

[ManiacJoe]

168. Because distance is your friend.

> Why would the officer retreat backwards?

Since the Bad Guys do not get much practice time at the gun range, the further away you get the less likely the Bad Guy is to hit you. However, that works both ways if you are not getting much practice time either.

[randys1]

32. I dont see a gun

[rbrnmw]

36. you really needed your own thread for this mess.

I suspect you are on a mission. I don't see a gun I see a grainy mess

[randys1]

37. What motives someone to so DESPERATELY need to see a gun in that picture?

[GGJohn]

39. Because that's what it is.

What motivates someone to so DESPERATELY hope it isn't a gun in that picture?

[randys1]

42. Did I start a thread EMOTIONALLY insisting it ISNT a gun? no, but that is what we have here

[rbrnmw]

41. I suspect they feel a need to defend cops

[randys1]

43. Not just cops but cops in certain situations, but yes, always defending cops

Until it is their son or friend who is shot in suspicious circumstances, then a different tune will be heard.

[LincolnsLeftHand]

48. On the other hand

You've got folks who always attack cops, regardless of the evidence. I'd prefer to be on the side that assumes public servants act in a reasonable manner, since the evidence is that they almost always do.

[randys1]

49. Public servants? You mean cops, and certain groups of people can have that luxury

of an assumption, others based on history and experience, cant.

I think it is Paul Mooney who says the complexion for the protection.

[rbrnmw]

67. yep I love that man

he also says a lot of other things that are true but I suspect would piss a few of our fellow posters. I have wanted to post a few of his clips

[LincolnsLeftHand]

71. I mean that the thousands of people who put their lives on the line to protect others

Shouldn't automatically be lumped together with a few bad apples. I like to think that people generally act appropriately, even if they are in a position of authority. Perhaps I'm just naive.

[Long Drive]

124. One day in and a hidden post

CLASSIC!

[sheshe2]

62. Really?

I'd prefer to be on the side that assumes public servants act in a reasonable manner, since the evidence is that they almost always do.

So leaving Martin alive for 30 minutes without calling an ambulance is reasonable? Leaving his body on the street for 2 hours is reasonable to you?

Don't even get me started on Michael Brown and Eric Garner.

[sheshe2]

175. And not calling an ambulance?

He was alive. Is that too SOP for the police? If so the police S**K at their jobs. Then again, better dead cause they can't tell the story of what really happened now can they.

[giftedgirl77]

54. Ding ding ding

We have a winner!!!

[treestar]

105. I'm not seeing objectivity at all on the anti-cop side

So accusing others of that is pot calling kettle black.

And I have found cops wrong in some situations and only objected to broad brushing them all and gotten insulted by people who really can't claim they are somehow more objective.

[treestar]

96. This is the pot calling the kettle black

I see more of a need to find the cops in the wrong in every case.

[shaayecanaan]

130. what motivates people to so desperately see it as something else?

It could have been a carrot. It could have been a can of deodorant. But I don't see why he would have pointed any of those things in the same way as a gun.

[LincolnsLeftHand]

45. Thanks for posting this

I don't understand the automatic dislike of the police that has shown up here lately. I usually associate uneducated knee jerk finger pointing with the far right, but there's folks on this website too happy to assume the worst about apparently every police officer in the US. Disappointing frankly.

[randys1]

52. So now many DU members are uneducated, knee jerk finger pointers?

How many, care to name names?

[doc03]

58. Well said I agree 100%, if that is how it went down. But there are some here that

just deny the facts. They claim you can't tell it is a gun, maybe it's a cell phone. I really doubt he was aiming a cell phone at the cop.
Then even if there is a gun at the scene it had to be planted. It is a waste of time to try and reason with them

[GGJohn]

61. ^^^This^^^

+1000.

[chickenfairy]

68. I can't imagine holding

anything other than a gun like that. I take pictures and record video with my cell phone everyday and I never SHOVE it towards the subject.

[madville]

76. Looks like suicide by cop to me

Being a convicted felon in possession of a firearm, he was likely going back to prison for a long time if found with it. Maybe he just said screw it, I'll get these cops to shot me, happens quite often.

[bobGandolf]

78. I'm sold...justified but....

I do not like that body camera, and car camera "...were not working.."

[djean111]

85. The body cams and car cams are going to be one fucking huge waste of money. HUGE. n/t

[tularetom]

79. Because of recent events, my initial reaction to stories like this is skepticism

When I saw the first post on this incident, I was fully prepared to believe it was one more case of an unjustified killing of a young black guy by a cop.

After further review I'm glad I didn't jump to any conclusions. It's still an unfortunate event, but it wasn't a cold blooded murder.

[Live and Learn]

143. True, but it still leaves a lot of unanswered questions.

Why did the officer pull in? Why did the guys walk right up to him? What was the conversation about? What would prompt someone to pull a gun on a officer? Who was the guy that ran away because he obviously knows exactly what happened?

[classof56]

111. I confess I'm not sure what prompted this incident...

But was the officer informed about Martin's history of armed robbery and armed criminal action prior to the confrontation that resulted in the shooting? Not saying that was necessary to the officer's decision to fire on a man aiming a gun at him, probably reason enough in itself, but I'm just wondering.

At any rate, thanks for reminding me of Kipling's poem "The Betrothed" where he wrote the oft-quoted (sometimes skewed a bit) lines, "A woman is only a woman, but a good Cigar is a smoke."

Cheers.

[treestar]

118. I agree that it is not relevant

the officer would only be justified in using force if force was being used against him right then, without regard to the criminal record of the individual, even if he knew of it. In court, prior record is not admissible to prove guilt on the case being tried - the prosecution has to prove the accused did it, not that the accused is a bad person. Too many right wingers don't understand this. They think a trial is about whether the person is a good or bad person and guilt can be drawn from that. Not so.

Same with Brown and the cigars. Wilson didn't know about that and was only justified in going on what he saw right there.

[GGJohn]

126. As Denzel Washington put it so aptly in Training Day,

it's not what you know, it's what you can prove.

[TorchTheWitch]

171. do you need to know someone's history or anything else about them

when they point a gun at you? Take a single second to ponder anything about them and you'd be dead. Why you'd ponder anything at all about someone pointing a gun at you is ludicrous to begin with seeing as anyone that happens to is going to naturally assume they've got about one second left to live and soiling themselves with terror.

I'm sure what prompted this incident - some stupid violent criminal with a gun decided to commit suicide by cop because he was a fucking asshole of a stupid violent criminal with a long yet brief history of committing violent crimes both with a gun and without. That fucking simple.

An intelligent question would be what made this 18 year old kid become such a violent criminal? Where were his parents? Who was responsible for raising this kid and why did they drop the ball so badly either not paying attention to what their kid was up to, not caring about what their kid was up to, or worse knowing what they were up to and not caring about that either?

[classof56]

200. TTW, I appreciate your reply.

In a couple of months I'll be 77, so maybe there's hope that someday I'll figure out an "intelligent question", as you put it. Nothing much shocks me anymore when it comes to language (I'm a writer), however, I'm guessing I can craft my questions without using the "F" word. But that's just me.

While your questions are certainly valid, mine had to do with the fact that the OP made it sound as if the 18-year-old shot by the police officer had a criminal history, therefore validating the officer's decision to shoot him dead. What I wondered was, did the policeman know all that when he pulled the trigger? Yes, even I in my dotage can figure out that someone pointing a gun at you may be reason enough to shoot, but lately it seems the immediate reaction to such events is to talk about the victim's history and leap to the conclusion that his death was somehow totally justified. To me, that is predominantly right-wing rhetoric, illustrative of their lack of compassion and understanding, and I tend to take issue with that. Perhaps if the officer in this case had worn his body cam, or even activated his patrol car cam, things might be clearer. Again, I simply wonder if prior acts by the victim actually warranted the death penalty. However, as you point out, if suicide by cop was his goal, clearly he got what he wanted. Reasons behind his actions notwithstanding, to me this incident and the aftermath serve as another example of how the gap that divides us as a nation is ever-widening, which saddens my old soul.

I sense that you are a compassionate and caring person who wants to make this a better world. That is greatly to be admired, and it's my goal as well, for my grandchildren and all the young people in whose hands the future rests.

Blessings and peace.

[sabrina 1]

139. How come the police in other civilized countries do not shoot suspects to death even

when they are threatening them?

Are our police so scared that their only reaction is to KILL first ask questions later?

Maybe we need to reform the recruitment process and try to find people who are capable of rational thinking before firing their weapons.

Clearly we do have some such people since they are not all engaging in this 'shoot first then cya' type of policing.

[_Blue_]

140. In which country is deadly force not the typical response to a deadly threat?

[sabrina 1]

144. Just about every civilized country except this one.

France police deadly shootings = 0

[GGJohn]

141. So the officer was supposed to wait to see if the guy was going to shoot or not?

Pointing a gun at someone indicates they're willing to use it, the cop was fully justified to think that the subject was going to shoot him, the officer was therefore well within his right and dept. policy to use deadly force to end the threat.

[sabrina 1]

145. Yeah, in the US that IS the only possible option that occurs to the police. Shoot first, never, ever

consider any other options.

Apparently the police in other civilized countries are able to THINK before they act.

Are you seriously unable to come up with other ways of handling a situation like this?

[GGJohn]

147. What other option?

The guy clearly had bad intentions for the cop, what should he have done?

I'm curious, is there any police shooting that you would rule justified?

[uppityperson]

148. How was this an "ambush"?

[GGJohn]

149. Maybe not an ambush in the true sense,

but the man clearly had bad intentions for the officer.

[uppityperson]

152. If it was not an ambush, why call it one? Any time someone has "bad intentions", does

that make it an "ambush"? Yes, words matter, especially ones meant to provoke an emotional response, like " ambush" which CLEARLY did not happen here.

[GGJohn]

154. You're right, I'll edit it.

[uppityperson]

155. thank you and merry happy etc

[GGJohn]

156. Back atcha.

[Boreal]

173. I'm no cop lover

but anytime points a gun at you and you are also armed, you shoot them first if you can draw that fast. I don't believe for one minute that any cop in any country is not going to shoot (if they have the chance) if someone aims a firearm at them. Please show an example of a cop in France who didn't shoot a suspect who drew a gun on them. Post an example of any armed cop, in any country, who chose not to shoot someone who drew a weapon on them.

The above is NOT my taking a position on this particular shooting. I'm speaking generally. I am not defending cops just the right to defend oneself.

[sabrina 1]

189. Maybe we should ask the French police how THEY handle these situations.

Their record of cops killing civilians is 0.

Maybe don't speed to a scene you don't know anything about, jump of the car and open fire without knowing what is going on.

I am sure there are thousands of incidents with armed people every year in this country where the cops do NOT rush to judgement and manage to deescalate the situation without blowing away a possible innocent person.

We are not in a war zone.

But that is the mentality of many cops these days.

In the situation under discussion, did they even try to communicate with the person, ask him to raise his hands, before jumping out of the car guns blazing?

They do have megaphones, many use them. This guy didn't.

There are also non lethal weapons that can be used. They are used on animals to subdue them, why not on humans?

Sorry but there are other options before instantly killing someone, and as we've seen so often now, sometimes even a child who never was a threat at all.

[GGJohn]

191. Why don't you show us where in the video the cop jumped out of his car guns ablazing?

The guy pulled a fucking gun out of his waistband and pointed it at the officer, what was the officer supposed to do?

[sabrina 1]

208. I wasn't referring to this one incident, I was referring to the number of other incidents

where cops just start shooting before even waiting to see what is going on.

Are you actually denying that we have a serious problem in this country with this issue?

How about the cop who was forced to resign from his previous PD, hired by the Cleveland PD, answers a call about a kid in a store waving a gun, gets there and in 2 seconds, kills a 12 yr old who was holding a toy gun?

Looks like HIS former superiors were correct when they stated he was not fit to be on the police force. And yet, he was, armed and dangerous and a child is dead because of it. But we know he too will get off.

How about the elderly Black Veteran who accidentally hit his alarm button (he was disabled) which the police responded to. He told them he was fine, they screamed at him to open the door, then kicked it down, went in screaming racial epithets, all recorded on the machine provided by the alarm co. One of them shoots him, he is unarmed, in his own home, and he is DEAD.

I could go on, but you are convinced that all this is justified, so why bother?

[GGJohn]

209. Jesus Christ!!!!!

Before you jump to conclusions about someone, try, just try to research their previous posts.
I have come out against the shootings of Brown, Rice, the choking death of Garner, but in this case, the cop was well within his rights and Dept. policy to shoot.

God, I fucking hate it when people jump to conclusions about another member without knowing jack shit about them, and I include myself in this when I jump to unwarranted conclusions.

[sabrina 1]

211. I hate that too. So my apologies, I do not know everyone on this forum and

lately have seen a whole lot of defense of torture and police brutality, crime iow, so probably do knee jerk react, despite ironically, criticizing cops for doing so.

[GGJohn]

212. No problem.

As I said, I sometimes do the same exact thing.
Have a very good New Year.

[GGJohn]

210. BTW, in the earlier post?

You specifically referred to the previous post when you said guns blazing .

In the situation under discussion, did they even try to communicate with the person, ask him to raise his hands, before jumping out of the car guns blazing?

[sabrina 1]

214. Yes, it was badly written. I was thinking of the other incident, but did conflate the two.

Anyhow, have a great New Year also ...

[GGJohn]

215. Thank you.

[Spider Jerusalem]

142. Other countries have much stricter gun laws.

Police in most countries don't have to deal with suspects who are potentially armed with handguns. The ready accessibility and availability of firearms in the USA changes the risk calculus for law enforcement.

[Logical]

146. You may be correct, but I seldom see someone takes such joy in someone dying. Nt

[baldguy]

170. If that's the best you've got, then you've got nothing.

All you need to see is the color of Antonio Martin's skin.

As soon as you allow any ambiguous gesture to characterized as a threat and used to justify murder, you give the police the justification to continue the poor law enforcement practices that are at the core of the problem: racial profiling, collective guilt, & the "occupation" mentality that casts the people of the communities they serve as "the enemy".

[pintobean]

176. "All you need to see is the color of Antonio Martin's skin."

[GGJohn]

180. All you need to see is the color of Antonio Martin's skin?

Wow!!!!!
Never mind the fact that he pulled and aimed a gun at the officer?

[baldguy]

220. A "gun" with a glowing LCD screen? That seems to have disappeared from the crime scene

only to mysteriously reappear 20 min later?

[GGJohn]

221. That "glowing LCD screen"? That was the cops flashlight.

But you won't believe it so, bye bye.

[baldguy]

222. Except that it isn't a reflection.

But you won't believe it so, you can stick your head in the sand.

[MrMickeysMom]

172. Nevermind about what you saw… what about the witness in the picture?

[rgbecker]

179. All I need to see is the whole video.

The only explanation as to why the police have decided to edit out Martin falling, shot dead, is because there was no gun. We get to see the policeman falling with his flashlite skidding across the pavement, but no Martin falling, dropping his gun which amazingly we later get to see a picture of clearly marked as evidence. Oh, and isn't it interesting that neither the body cam or dash cam was turned on? Clearly Martin falls right in front of the car which would have been picked up clearly on a dash cam.

I'm a doubter with no trust of the "official" story. "18 year old chooses suicide on during Christmas holidays, forgets safety is on, pulls gun but doesn't shoot because, well, he's just an idiot black guy doing what black guys do on a daily basis all across the country."

Bull Shit.


That said, the cop must have been scared shitless.

[KingCharlemagne]

187. What is that cop's name and was he tested for steroids or meth after the shooting? - nt

[GGJohn]

188. Why should he be?

[KingCharlemagne]

192. In case he was operating 'under the influence' during the encounter with

Mr. Martin, that's why.

But you knew that.

[GGJohn]

193. What makes you think he was?

[KingCharlemagne]

195. The fact that he shot first and never asked questions. Doesn't make me think 'he was' (your

straw man notwithstanding) but that the possibility needs to be excluded.

But you knew that.

And what was that cop's name again?

[GGJohn]

198. He shot first?

Yeah, after he had a gun pointed at him.
For the record, after an officer involved shooting, the officer does have blood drawn for a substance test.
As to why no name yet? Go ask the Berkeley, MO PD.

[pintobean]

199. "never asked questions"

What do you think he was doing between the time he pulled up, and when he had a gun pointed at him?

And, do you think cops should have to be shot at before they can shoot.

Maybe if they just ask suspects nicely if they plan on shooting anyone.

[Capt. Obvious]

181. You joined up for this?

[rbrnmw]

183. it appears so

[Capt. Obvious]

190. Judging from the video, it appears there was no resolution.

[PeteSelman]

201. Yes, anti-police brutality is different than anti-police.

Some people here can't seem to make the distinction.

[SomethingFishy]

203. So then you are saying this was suicide by cop...

Because after the events in the last few months no black man in his right mind would pull a gun on a cop and not expect to get killed.

That is my problem with this. Yeah the video shows something, could be a gun, could be he was shoving his cell phone in the guys face, which in the current climate would certainly make more sense.

Of course the guy could be an idiot and maybe he did pull a gun. Then I would call this suicide by cop.

Anyone claiming they can tell what that is in the video, is seeing what they want to see. The video is too grainy. The cop will walk away and we will never know what really happened.

You say "it was a gun". If you can tell that from that video I have a job for you.

[pintobean]

204. Maybe it was a sandwich

and he was offering officer friendly a bite. Or, maybe he expected the gun to fire, and it didn't.

[SomethingFishy]

205. We must be blind or stupid

because it seems everyone else knows exactly what is in that video..

[_Blue_]

216. I can tell

The video shows him drawing and pointing something that could be a gun. The officer says it was a gun. The officers video-taped reaction to the gun shows genuine fear and an attempt to escape from harm. Martin had prior arrests for armed robbery and armed criminal action (he died before adjudication was complete). Oh, and let's not forget that the gun itself was located and is visible in the zoomed-in photographs.

Whether this was a suicide by cop or just a dumb criminal who was too dim to click the safety to Fire before drawing, or if the cheap weapon experienced a malfunction, it doesn't matter. The shooting was clearly justified.

Let's focus on Eric Garner's case which actually IS an example of police brutality.

[GGJohn]

217. +1000. eom

[MrMickeysMom]

218. "The shooting was clearly justified."

All things being equal, perhaps you'll re-think that = sign.

I don't know that it was a gun, and if an only if I know it was a gun, would I say something like that, WERE I being fair and balanced, or "=".

[SomethingFishy]

224. You can tell looking at that video that what you are seeing is a gun in that mans hand.

I understand, the shooting is justified because you see a gun and the cop told you it was a gun.

Let me reiterate..

[Schema Thing]

206. One thing IS *Clear*

The officer believed he'd had a gun pointed at himself.


All you have to do is see the video of the officer tripping over himself to get away from the gun to know he truly believed he was in mortal danger.

[chickenfairy]

207. So if it was a cellphone

And of course I know it's not but if it was when did he plan on hitting the record button? After shoving it in the cops face? When I record something or take a picture there's a few things I have to do on my phone to get it ready. Unlock it. Go to camera. Go to video. Hit record. Things like that.

[haele]

232. Side comment on cell-phone picture taking.

I've filmed a video of a rainbow one-handed. Not difficult to raise and "shoot a picture" one-handed on a smart-phone, and you can get a cheap Cricket smart phone that you can use voice activation to bring up the camera and set it to video.
As for this "good shoot/bad shoot" situation:
1) Previous history of the young man who was shot had nothing - absolutely nothing - to do with the "present situation". The officer wasn't responding to an armed robbery call or any other call from what I could determine, so why was the young man being stopped or approached?
2) The primary unacceptable police behavior was letting a still living "suspect" lie bleeding to death on the pavement for near 30 minutes and letting him die on the parking lot. That smacks of a "Judge, Jury, and Executioner" attitude on the part of the police, and that is not what the police have ever supposed to have been for, once they were established as. I don't care if he was shot while holding a busload of preschoolers hostage. Even in the f***'n ride-along COPS shows, they call for an ambulance as soon as someone is shot, no matter who it is.
Where was the ambulance call?
3) I haven't seen enough in the provided by the police to unequivocally determine if it was a gun or a cell phone; the young man's stance says very little about what he had in his hand other than he was pointing something smallish, and the granularity of the released video really isn't clear enough that in what light was available, I could tell if it was a snub-nose revolver or if it was a smart-phone held somewhat sideways. Also, it's a snippet of a video, not the complete from just before the initiation of contact to the fall after being shot, just "suspect pulling something out of his pocket or waistband".
and
4) It is obvious that not all police departments are the same and have the same protocol for "armed suspects" - witness a couple days later when a white woman in Texas decided to shoot up her affluent neighborhood and at the police who were trying to arrest her - and is still alive. If the police officer who shot the young man had been facing her, would he have shot her and left her to bleed to death on the pavement while he was getting his report ready? Likewise, would those Texas police officers have attempted to take an 18-year old black male who was shooting up his affluent neighborhood alive?
Is there a standard for shooting suspects and dealing out "final justice", or are there different standards or privileges to access to justice based first on race, then on gender, and ultimately on class?

Those are my questions. And that's where my outrage would come from.

Haele

[pintobean]

233. Well, here are some answers

Several witnesses, including the friend who ran, said that Martin pulled a gun, pointed it at the officer, and tried to fire it.

Timeline of events:

11:11p.m. -Berkeley Police Department received call for service for shoplifting
11:12p.m. -Second call dispatched- advised of incident with suspect description
11:14p.m. -Officer arrived on scene
11:15p.m.- Advised shots had been fired-
11:16p.m. –First assist unit arrived on the scene & Ems was requested by officer’s on the scene. Supervisor arrived on the scene as well
11:17p.m.- EMS was contacted by Berkeley Communications Dispatch
11:19p.m.- Unknown female called 911 requesting an ambulance for Mr. Martin- She was advised that they were en route
11:21p.m.- Berkeley Fire & Paramedics arrived on the scene and began treating Mr. Martin
11:24p.m. –Berkeley Fire & Paramedics began conducting EKG monitoring
11:28p.m. –Berkeley Fire & Paramedics confirmed Mr. Martin was lifeless- His body was covered.
11:28p.m. -Berkeley Fire & Paramedics contacted Christian North East Hospital. His time of death was declared.
11:35p.m. -Mr. Martin was positively identified by family members
12:40a.m. -Medical Examiner arrived on the scene
2:00a.m. -Body was logged in at the Medical Examiner’s Office

http://fox2now.com/2014/12/30/update-berkeley-mayor-to-hold-news-conference-on-officer-involved-shooting/

[damnedifIknow]

230. Gun or not aren't most if not all police shootings found to be justified?

In the rarest of cases one or two might find it's way to a court of law only to be dismissed by a jury.

[Feral Child]

234. HOORAY!

You found an example of where a policeman apparently didn't commit an unjustified homocide.

That CLEARLY negates all the unarmed black kids murdered by cops, now doesn't it?

I think every one here will admit that sometimes the police need to shoot somebody whilst doing their job, but to even suggest this has anygoddamthing to do with the numerous cases when they CLEARLY murdered PoC because they're racist pigs defines your personal attitude towards unwarranted killings by cops, despite your carefully constructed but minimized disclaimer that you aren't a racist , 'cause "hold their feet to the fire..." (cliche)

As if your otaku screen-name hadn't already announced your intent. Next time sign up as "_Neutral_" so you can sneak up on us.

Oh, and that "cigar=cigar" closer is also trite. Go for a little originality, we're getting tired of the cliches from you guys.

[GGJohn]

237. That CLEARLY negates all the unarmed black kids murdered by cops, now doesn't it?

Did ANYONE in this thread, or any other thread for that matter, say this?

But there sure were plenty of others saying that the gun was planted, Martin was unarmed, the cops didn't call EMS for 30 minutes, the body lay there for hours, etc.

[Feral Child]

258. It didn't need to be said, it was CLEARLY implied.

Your buddy's been banned, as the distruptor he is.

Sorry for your loss, Officer.

[GGJohn]

259. No, it wasn't implied, not even close.

Officer? Wrong again, as usual, unless you count Warrant Officer, otherwise, I was a working man in the Army.

[Feral Child]

260. Yes, I remember.

Last edited Wed Dec 31, 2014, 01:53 PM - Edit history (1)

REMF, if your self-congratulatory post was honest at all.

Let me state here that I respect and appreciate the air-support that I received as a "grunt", but your self-description as a helicopter "driver" only tells me that you're a fan of "Red Dawn".

Lot's of pretenders on the internet, that's why I don't use my campaign ribbons, or my CIB, as my avatar.

As to the sarcastic honorific I've attributed to you, that's not an error. It's a recognition of your continuous support for the institutionalized racism in this country's security apparatus. In fact, you "contribute" little else to this site. Your original dissertation on your credentials was in response to my veiled accusation that your true allegiance is to the Oath Keepers. Let me remind you that many members of the military (if in fact you ever were) are active members in the treasonous OK.

Have a happy New Year. I'm walking away and forgetting your existence until you pop up to challenge me again.


And, oh, yeah: it certainly was implied. Note that "_Blue_" has been PPRd, because he was a disruptive troll that implied the negation I noted.

[uppityperson]

242. Notice the missing avatar? They made it to 106, thanks EarlG!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=319650&sub=trans

[tenderfoot]

244. buh bye...

[marym625]

245. Funny how you see a gun

And so many others, including news agencies that have studied it, see a cell phone.

Welcome to DU

[Ace Rothstein]

246. It was a gun.

[GGJohn]

247. You are aware of the presser today by the Chief?

Several witnesses, including Martin's friend, the one who ran when the shooting started, confirmed that Martin did pull and aim a gun at the officer, which validates those of us here who maintained that what we saw in the video was, in fact, a gun.

[marym625]

248. I am aware of the press conference

I am aware that the police say they have witnesses that say it was a gun.

[GGJohn]

249. Including the man that was with Martin,

seems pretty convincing that Martin did indeed point a gun at the officer, which would make it a justified homicide.

[marym625]

250. I am extremely skeptical

About all of it. I will remain skeptical until there is absolute proof. And the cops saying someone said something doesn't mean shit.

Regardless, there is no way to tell from that video if he's holding a gun, a cell phone or a hot dog. To claim "this is it, no doubt" from a video that is too far away, too blurry and too distorted for even experts to know for sure is just ridiculous.

I hope that for once there is a reason for a cop to pull a weapon. But I will not be convinced without absolute proof.

[GGJohn]

251. So you don't believe the several witnesses, again, including the guy who was with him

that Martin didn't have a gun that night?
Why? Why would they lie? Why would Martin's friend lie? If it wasn't true, why didn't Martin's friend say that what the Chief said was a lie? Why haven't the other witnesses come forward and disputed this?

[marym625]

252. Why haven't any of the witnesses come forward

That have supposedly said he had a gun?

No, I don't believe shit because a cop said it. Cop and prosecutor also said "it wasn't a choke hold" "a witness said he charged like a football player" which we know are lies. A person did say that but we know that she wasn't even there.

Until I know more about the "friend" and the cops, nope, I remain skeptical.

[MrScorpio]

253. Bye bye, Blue

See ya later, I'm sure!

[ecstatic]

254. Who whips out a gun that slowly?

It could be a phone or ID.

[GGJohn]

255. According to the witnesses, including the man who was with Martin,

he pulled and aimed a gun at the officer, not a phone or an ID.

[Action_Patrol]

256. You know as well as I do that facts won't matter if the person doesn't want them.

[GGJohn]

257. Yeah, I'm seeing that.

None are so blind as those that refuse to see.
Welcome to DU.