What happened to negotiations between police and suspects?

[rbrnmw]

Do they really have to start shooting at every threat they perceive? Unarmed or Armed in some cases like Tamir Rice and John Crawford. It is clear they didn't have time to tell either of them to drop a weapon which turned out to be toys. If they are in public isn't the general public in more danger if these cops start shooting out of nervousness? I just don't understand how it is so reactionary anymore.

[_Blue_]

1. There is a time and place for a negotiation.

That time isn't when one human is pointing a firearm at another.

[rbrnmw]

2. It has been done before

what is your angle did you join DU just to defend cops?

[LincolnsLeftHand]

3. Agree

If you point a gun at a policeman then you are likely going to get shot.

[rbrnmw]

4. I am not just talking about armed suspects

[randys1]

5. Our police are either not trained for negotiation or if they are they simply dont want to

We seem to have an institutional issue

[rbrnmw]

6. well I think in some cases they don't want to

if they are that afraid they need to find a new line of work

[randys1]

7. Almost as if having 300 million guns could be a problem, is that the number?

Just guessing

[LincolnsLeftHand]

8. Or perhaps if you don't want to get shot

Then don't point a gun at a police officer.

[randys1]

9. Or a cell phone...

Or in Michael Brown's case, dont jaywalk if you dont wanna get shot.

[LincolnsLeftHand]

17. So now we are talknig about Michael Brown?

I thought we were talking about a case where a cop shot someone who pointed a gun at him. But feel free to keep moving the target.

[rbrnmw]

21. read the op we are talking all cases

[LincolnsLeftHand]

23. Sorry

I was responding to a post about someone pointing a gun/cell phone.

[phil89]

38. And especially don't try to take the cop's gun

that's a good way for anyone to get shot.

[rbrnmw]

43. I don't believe that fucking fairytale

Darren Wilson is a liar.

[Live and Learn]

61. +1 nt

[rbrnmw]

10. that may be part of the problem

bad training too
institutional racism
outright racism
military mentality
ect.......

[randys1]

12. Racism? In post Obama presidency America? Nah, I heard we aint got no racism no more

[rbrnmw]

15. I heard that too but keep seeing it everywhere

[LincolnsLeftHand]

24. So every police force in the US

Is guilty of bad training, institutional racism and outright racism? Really? I'm not even sure how to react to that, other than to say you paint with an awfully broad brush.

[rbrnmw]

25. no not every but too many

[TorchTheWitch]

46. what are you talking about?

And who says they don't negotiate with suspects when it's appropriate? A layperson isn't the one with the knowledge or experience to know. Police are who dig for and put together the evidence in any case, and they do a damn good job of it. They hunt for missing persons and dig up whatever they can find about where missing person's may be and whether or not they're likely alive or likely dead. They respond to every call and do their utmost to protect people from harm and arrest assholes that harm people. But does the cop hate brigade here give a flying fuck about any of that? No.

Isn't it interesting that whenever there's a story about a missing person or a criminal suspect no one has any problem believing what they say about it or how glad they are that they found someone that had been missing either alive or dead or that they put some criminal behind bars. But no, we actually have people here that say how much better we'd be off without police imagining there's no such thing as criminals.

[rbrnmw]

47. I am talking about police brutality

of course you knew that

[Ramses]

14. maybe cops should stop pointing guns

at citizens and murdering them in cold blood. They wouldn't have to worry so much if they stopped terrorizing citizens in the first place

[LincolnsLeftHand]

18. Maybe citizens should stop pointing guns at cops?

Christ, all the evidence indicates someone pointed a gun at a cop and was shot, and that the cop acted legally regardless of which state's law you want to apply. Sometimes cops shoot people and should be prosecuted for it, and sometimes cops are justified in shooting people. Assuming EVERY cop is crooked or EVERY police shooting is unjustified is simply ignorance, and certainly isn't something Democrats should do.

[Ramses]

22. problem is cops get away with shooting

Citizens all the time,justified or not. The good cops rarely speak up against criminals in their own ranks. Probably out of fear of losing their job or worse. Its systemic and the culture of corruption is deep and pervasive in police forces across this country

[LincolnsLeftHand]

26. No no no

If a cop gets away with an UNJUSTIFIED shooting that is certainly a problem. A cop getting away with a JUSTIFIED shooting isn't a problem. If you pull a gun on a cop, or try to run them over with your car then you might get shot. And if that happens the police man or woman acted appropriately. On the other hand, a police officer shouldn't be allowed to choke a suspect to death, or shoot someone who isn't a threat. And if folks are going to complain about this "culture of corruption" then sign up to be a cop, put your life on the line every day you go to work, and change the culture.

[Kingofalldems]

27. That actually reads like something Joe Friday said

on Dragnet.

[Ramses]

29. using you logic

A cop that pulls a gun on a citizen can expect to have the same done to them. The citizen would be acting in self defense. And i dont think you thought through the culture of corruption thing. One cannot sign up to be a cop and expect to change anything. Thats why is called a "culture of corruption ".

Im also saying their are most definitely good cops out there. They unfortunately are all to likely to be intimidated into not speaking up against criminals in their ranks. They stand to lose their job and worse

[rbrnmw]

48. I haven't seen anybody on DU say every cop

stop defending police brutality

[_Blue_]

39. Cops should definitely not point their guns unnecessarily.

[onecaliberal]

37. The man with the toy gun in Walmart was NOT

Pointing it at anyone, neither was the 12 year old in the park.
Stop defending the indefensible.

[giftedgirl77]

41. or the 14 yr old in CA...

Hell he wasn't even given the chance to turn around.

[rbrnmw]

49. It's sickening

[unblock]

53. there is a time and a place for shooting people.

that time isn't when the other human is simply checking out a toy in a place where they're legally for sale.

[_Blue_]

54. Agreed.

I think the 911 called who lied and reported he was pointing a gun at shoppers is to blame there.

[unblock]

56. lol. patients lie, 911 callers lie, everybody lies, or at least says things that aren't true.

that in no way gets a shooter off the hook.

anyone who shoots at another human being has the utmost responsibility to get it right. you don't take someone else's life because a stranger got it wrong.

in fact, the 911 caller might have gotten it right, maybe there was a real gun, but then he left, leaving nothing but ordinary shoppers, one of whom happened to be checking out toy guns.

the police, in particular, are paid to be experts at assessing threats, identifying real guns, etc.


something is seriously wrong with the picture if the only threat in the room is the police officer, and excuses are made that's it's somehow ok for the police officer to shoot and kill a complete innocent.

[alcibiades_mystery]

11. Happens all the time for white suspects

Just sayin'

[randys1]

13. Actually there does seem to be endless examples of that

Hell, in the Bundy case, no negotiation, nothing was done at all to those dipshits.

[rbrnmw]

16. yes it does

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. you don't "negotiate" with someone who's pointing a gun at you.

Pulling a gun on a cop is an excellent way to get shot. Antonio Martin is not Tamir Rice and is not John Crawford. He pulled a gun and pointed it at a cop.

[rbrnmw]

35. I wasn't just talking about one but all of them

[Spider Jerusalem]

36. I agree that there are some serious issues with the way policing is done in the USA.

The Antonio Martin shooting is not an example of those issues, though.

[seveneyes]

20. Life and Death

When only one is inevitable, it leaves us nothing to decide. We act upon emotion and let the dice fall where they land. When the hammer of death is dropped, we may dodge or die.

[doc03]

28. You don't negotiate with a gun to your head. n/t

[rbrnmw]

31. Did you even read the OP?

I bet not

[doc03]

33. I agree that the Crawford and Rice shooting were not justified, each case is different n/t

[rbrnmw]

34. ok

[rbrnmw]

50. what are talking about?

Which one had a gun to his head? Which case?

[Savannahmann]

30. Is it really?

Unarmed or Armed in some cases like Tamir Rice and John Crawford. It is clear they didn't have time to tell either of them to drop a weapon which turned out to be toys.

Why didn't they? In the case of Tamir, they could have stopped further back and given themselves time, and space to evaluate before taking action. Instead they rushed right up to him, closing the distance, taking away all the of the options save one in their minds.

In the case of John Crawford, why didn't they seek cover first, and then talk? Instead they rushed right up to him and gave themselves no chance to do anything but shoot.

We need to learn from every situation, and improve the responses. If the cops had stopped further back, or gotten on the loudspeaker installed on the car and told the boy to drop the weapon, it almost certainly would have ended differently. Instead they closed to point blank range, where they couldn't miss.

[rbrnmw]

32. yep

they just reacted and never tried anything just gunning them both down

[KingCharlemagne]

40. In a supposedly color-blind society as ours, I've had to come to terms with the

brutal fact of white privilege. To wit, had Rice or Crawford been white, there's every likelihood that no fatality would have ensued. White privilege in this context means that police don't "shoot first and ask questions later" but instead look for ways to de-escalate that do not involve the discharge of firearms as the primary means.

Of course, I don't know how one would prove that Rice or Crawford would have survived had either been white, since each was black. But there are many instances where a white citizen is brandishing or even aiming a firearm at law enforcement and somehow that white person doesn't end up on the cold slab of the mortuary as a result.

As a white male, I know my chances of emerging unscathed from the random quotidian encounter with law enforcement are vastly better than those of a black male. Knowing that really sucks and it makes me ashamed to call myself American.

[rbrnmw]

45. I wish they kept track of these situations somehow.

we need to demand better record keeping.
we also need journalists in this country not talking heads or news readers

[Bluenorthwest]

51. Congress passed a law this week to track police shootings on a national basis

Congress reauthorized legislation this week that will require states to report the number of people killed during an arrest or while in police custody.

"You can't begin to improve the situation unless you know what the situation is," Rep. Bobby Scott (D-Va.), one of the bill's sponsors, said in an interview with the Washington Post. "We will now have the data."

The Death in Custody Reporting Act was originally passed in 2000, but expired in 2006. Scott has attempted to reauthorize the bill unsuccessfully four times since then.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/12/11/congress-decides-to-get-serious-about-tracking-police-shootings/

Some people have been putting effort into passing that law for years. Others don't even know it was discussed, nor that we finally got it passed.
How could anyone who cares about this issue at all be unaware of the legislation about it?

[rbrnmw]

52. thanks for the info

[giftedgirl77]

42. They only happen if you're white.

[rbrnmw]

44. BINGO