American Democracy Is A Failure

[WillTwain]

Democracy failed the ancient Greeks and it has failed modern America, too. The conservative movement - the backward looking, fact-free, neanderthal system - has in one form or another steered the ship for 35 years. The result is a United States that is far behind the civilized world by nearly every metric.

If we do not turn to science, reason and progressive thinking the decline will undoubtedly continue and probably accelerate.

The real depressing reality is the solution is nowhere in sight. If the U.S. Senate cannot get to around 65 "progressive" democrats, we will never have a just society. We will envy Europe, Australia, Japan and every other smart country.

Our founding fathers failed us. They naively imagined a country of reasonable men working for a common good. Instead, with gerry-mandering, the filibuster, Citizen's United, Evangelical churches and Fox News, the meat heads rule. The chances of democrats ever getting to 65 senators is hard to imagine. Dems probably need 65 senators because there will always be a handful that will be peeled away. This will leave around 60, just enough to get something done.

So, it looks like the conservatives own the future.

With the chances of a benevolent dictatorship unlikely, the only hope is a genuine progressive president that makes big promises and forces his will on the House and Senate. If you see this as a pipe dream then Que Sera Sera.

[Thinkingabout]

1. A how do we start changing this, by getting good candidates to run and then voting every

election. The angry old men are going to be gone, the remarks I have heard about not voting for anyone who does not match 100% is killing us. I would rather have someone who goes to Congress to do many things I think is desirable rather than have the RW in which we know is going to vote against Democratic ideas every time. Our demise has been evolving for some time, we have to vote, there is not any choice.

[Katashi_itto]

2. Won't happen.

[WillTwain]

5. It does not look good.

I think we should have let the economy collapse after the Bush/ Cheney debacle. This would have forced people to take a look from the bottom rung at how messed up things are. Most people need to feel pain before they understand.

[Katashi_itto]

7. That's my attitude. The system needs to collapse. Democracy may or may not take hold again but

that is the way the cookie crumbles.

We have Republicans and 3rd Dems who needs external enemies?

[FrodosPet]

13. Can you promise that the new system will be better?

After all, the collapse that so many people are cheerleading will kill a LOT of people who are now struggling but surviving.

People who are strong willed and well connected will not suffer much, if at all, but the people on the bottom will be crushed.

Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.

[WillTwain]

16. We came out of the Great Depression with the New Deal

Last edited Sat Dec 27, 2014, 02:03 PM - Edit history (1)

In the short term, suffering will be awful. In the long run, the suffering will be much less. The U.S. sucked before the New Deal. The short term suffering ended with a fifty year run of good times.

[heaven05]

25. I just would like to know

how you have the nerve to tell that shit to all the people who will suffer. Oh so brave and cavalier with other peoples lives. The system does not need to crash. I will lose what little I have at 66, and when I die, your system of dealing won't care. Kids, will starve and die, not be able to get health care and die under your 'solution'. WW2 was the stimulus to the economy that brought this country out of the hard times called the 'Depression', nothing else. You should learn some history before you consign so many people to your 'bonfire of vanities'. Don't want no stinking, very hot, world war3!!!!!!

[WillTwain]

30. People are suffering now in large and growing numbers.

How about the 500000 Iraq women and children that wer killed by out right-wing beliefs. How about half of all Americans in or near poverty. How about a meth culture brought about from hopelessness and despair? I am looking at the big picture. How about the slaughter in Chile in 1973? You are the cavalier that does not care about the big picture.

Every great movement and act of progress is going to be beaten back by entrenched power. I feel in the overall picture, less not more suffering will occur.

By the way, it is my life that will suffer, too.

[heaven05]

40. Oh, you're looking at the big picture, are you

well I'm looking at my neighbors kids crying through the night now, before your solution, because the family can't afford the medicine. You are amazing in your "big picture". Some 15 or 20 years of rebuilding the economy at the expense of the poor and dwindling middle class is going to settle our problems? The rich will still get richer and the poor will continue to die in even greater numbers with your "big picture" solution. No thanks. Too cavalier with other lives...and I truly wonder if you will suffer that much...doesn't feel like it to me..... Take it to others, I don't believe your "big picture" solution will help anyone except the ones ruining our economy and country today. The fascist will solidify their power with an iron grip. There will be warfare, death and destruction in OUR streets, with your "big picture" solution. Nah! Anyone else have a humane and sensible solution, this one is a fail, big, big fail.

[WillTwain]

45. Maybe I am wrong but what is your solution?

[heaven05]

91. Massive demonstrations

Last edited Sat Dec 27, 2014, 08:35 PM - Edit history (2)

rolling strikes of all slave wage paying capitalist enterprises/businesses. The Plutocracy that has been created since the day of Raygun is almost complete. The theft of the elections by bushco almost sealed that transformation from democracy to plutocracy. Surprisingly, the election of Obama has made them speed up things because they know people are still hoping for a better day. The corrupt rich and powerful will never relinquish power peacefully, as you said and we do not have the actual weapons to hurt them really. Pocketbook hurt is the only way to make a point with these sociopaths running a sham democracy. In them turning their backs on the needs and suffering of the 99%, minus the 40% that are just fox snooze hate radio mush brains, they have hastened their loss of power and control over people who have nothing to lose anymore.. I do not feel that 40% will every accept a true 'rainbow' society of all races and cultures so they will have to be made to see that their best interest is served by all of us being unified in one goal, taking back our democracy from the rich and corrupt that have stolen it from all of 'we the people'.

I am associated with people that just want peace among the racial and political factions forming in the streets of this nation. Democracy is failing. No argument. Only 'we the people' can force a 'new' democracy and are the only ones that can make the wealthy in their little secure enclaves feel uncomfortable. How. Hit them in the wallet. Massive boycotts of the capitalist robber enterprises like walmart, massive demonstrations against income inequality. Now that will hurt a lot of people me included, but to me, that possible outcome will be easier to accept rather than needless suffering and bloodshed that the plutocrat policing system has proven it is more than willing to inflict over and over again. We must find unity and numbers of disaffected masses like you and I. We must hope people will get tired of the 'business as usual'.

[WillTwain]

102. Boycotts Will Work

I have been doing it independently but it is so difficult. Every time I turn around there is another place that is creepy. Jimmy Johns was the latest.

[NewDeal_Dem]

84. But the people of Europe & Japan suffered a lot during WW2 and its aftermath, just as you fear the

people of the US would suffer if anything changed in the US.

Someone always suffers.

[heaven05]

87. History is replete

with the suffering of the innocent, granted. How do we make the culprits that cause the innocents to suffer, suffer, that's the challenge. Yeah, the police suppression is always going to be a threat. How do we make the 1% realize that they cannot continue robbing and stealing while people are starving and getting thrown out into the streets. I agree with 100%. Let's make the other guy suffer. The ones that don't know what suffering feels like in their little secured enclaves of wealth,

[Enthusiast]

109. It could never happen again.

There is no one that could start a new New Deal.

The entire media is controlled by the right. The internet is at their whim. They can shut it down at any time.

The people already support the New Deal. It no longer matters what we want.

[Katashi_itto]

17. Did I say the new system would be better?

I said "Democracy may or may not take hold again but that is the way the cookie crumbles. "

[DonCoquixote]

74. an eirc hoffer quote that fits

“Those who would sacrifice a generation to realize an ideal are the enemies of mankind.”

― Eric Hoffer, The Passionate State of Mind: And Other Aphorisms

http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/812859-those-who-would-sacrifice-a-generation-to-realize-an-ideal

Mankind has a lot of enemies here. When you see the people pour love upon nader because he got W. in, or praise Jane Hamsher even though she gets paid to consult GOP candidiates, you see them.

as far as Cookies crumbling, if you want to become a crumbled cookie, knock yoruself out, but do not drag children and the elderly to you atlar just because you want to be blessed by the gods and goddess of psuedo-intellectual cool.

[Anansi1171]

55. You know, in retrospect...nt

[Thinkingabout]

8. Are you one of the problems or one of the solutions?

[Katashi_itto]

9. Neither.

[Thinkingabout]

11. Then change and become one of the solutions. Even if you are not an eligible voter then

work to get others to vote.

[Katashi_itto]

18. Not anymore. I did that with Obama, worked on his campaign, canvassed. Twice.

I won't do it again.

[WillTwain]

19. We need to get beyond Obama

If a great candidate emerges, we need to be all in. We can do this. The key is nominating real change.

[Katashi_itto]

20. I would get involved for Warren or Sanders or someone that wasnt a marketing gimmick.

Otherwise I continue to just lay the groundwork to get out of the country

[WillTwain]

26. Wow, dramatic move. I do not blame you. Northern Europe?

It really does come down to Sanders, Warren, maybe a Sherrod Brown type. Anything less is a slow bleed.

[Katashi_itto]

43. Either Northern Europe or Japan, since i am hafu (half Japanese)

[Puglover]

99. We built a home in the northern Andes.

House is sold. Need to pack, toss, give away or sell thirty years of crap.

One more Summer garden and then......

10/15/15 we will be looking at the US in our rear view mirror.

I am literally counting the days.

[pangaia]

129. I like the way you think.

Always have.
Norway as a possibility?
As you are hafu, there is a fine sushi bar in Trondheim !!
And my impression of the Norwegians is that, they are sane !

Good luck to you when you move on.

[Thinkingabout]

27. Okay, then there are choices, I choose to stay and work towards getting Democrats elected.

Don't complain if you do not vote.

[Katashi_itto]

47. Was I complaining? American is experiencing cultural Darwinism is all. Looks like it doesn't

or won't adapt and survive.

Oh well.

Looks like it will be tough on the populace.

[Katashi_itto]

100. I havent been complaining though.

[Thinkingabout]

24. Then do not get upset when things goes against you, how many republicans do you think

are going to help Democratic causes, name a few who votes like you want.

[Katashi_itto]

52. Again, you seem to think, that I think, we will have even a remotely working system

once Republicans take over.

I don't.

I think Republican control is a form of fast National Suicide.

But it's better than a slow death by a thousand paper cuts under a 3rd way.

[Thinkingabout]

57. Do you have a name of a Republican who votes the way you want?

[Katashi_itto]

64. Are you capable of reading anything I said?

[Thinkingabout]

79. I have read what you said, did you read the question I ask?

[Katashi_itto]

90. You said "Do you have a name of a Republican who votes the way you want?"

I don't think there are any such creatures.

But neither will Hillary she just happens to be Republican "lite".

Worse in some ways, since she is an architect of TPP.

[Thinkingabout]

94. Her voting record proves you wrong on this but cognitive dissonance helps those who wants to

Believe the same trash, trash without facts I might add.

[CentralMass]

78. How many democrats are going to help thém?

[Thinkingabout]

82. Let's start with those who voted for minimun wage increase. Did it get passed, no

The Democrats does not have the majority in the House. Congress passed ACA, may not have helped all but many have benefitted. There would have been more if the Republican governors would accept Medicaid expansion. There are more issues, if you follow what bills are being introduced you will know. Fifty times the House has voted to repeal ACA but the Senate has had enough votes to stop the repeal.

[LiberalElite]

48. So the messiah wasn't all that

and now you're done?

P.S. I voted for Obama twice.

[maddiemom]

60. Same here.

And I was the cynical one. Just hoping and despising the alternative. My Obama coworkers cheerily believed with every fiber of their being.

[WillTwain]

3. It is more than just warding off the republicans. We must vote, yes.

But we must have a progressive candidate. A moderate democrat cannot solve things. We have tried that a few times with no success on turning this big ship around. We must think big because even big efforts will fall short to some degree.

[Thinkingabout]

10. This is a problem, we are looking for solutions, allowing GOP candidates to win is not a solution.

[WillTwain]

12. Right...but

Republicans will take an axe to the country, but with a moderate democrat they will be mitigated. They will be forced to use a hatchet, instead. A quick death versus a slow death but it ends up the same.

[Katashi_itto]

21. Exactly

[Thinkingabout]

22. The numbers are on the side of Democrats, why are we losing elections?

Simple, not enough of the Democrats vote, ergo Republicans vote and elect more RW to act against our best interest.

[Odin2005]

32. Dems need a decent candidate to vote for.

You can blame the voters for not voting for a shitty product all you want, the truth is that the Left in this country is sick of voting for the lesser evil.

[LiberalElite]

49. Thank you. nt

[HughBeaumont]

119. Proof positive - Sherrod Brown.

Ohio, currently possessing a Sea of Tea surrounding it's major cities, was given the option of Sherrod Brown vs long-time Bewsh Rubberstamp Mike Dewine at Senator. Sherrod is no third-wayer; he's likely one of the few progressive voices in the Senate, a strong supporter of unions, LGBTQI rights, a living wage and against one-sided free trade.

Now, if highly conservative Ohio chose an actual progressive who will stand up for worker's rights and unions over a Bewsh rubberstamp who thinks shipping their jobs overseas is a great idea and governs by Bible, then why can't the Democratic Party look at THIS example as a blueprint and start getting some progressive voices on their ballots?

Oh, and Sherrod Brown recently got re-elected by a wide margin over Josh Mandel, another Teahadi.

[WillTwain]

124. Sherrod could be a political star with that gravely voice and likable personality.

I would like to see him run. He is the real deal.

[RiverLover]

125. I'd vote for him! And canvas too, here in his home state.

But he doesn't want to run. Our loss, for sure.

[WillTwain]

127. Will he take a V.P. spot?

Hillary may offer even though it will be for show.

[WillTwain]

34. We need to vote but they are uninspired with the lack of positive change

I hear it all the time, "there is no difference between the parties so who cares." I do not believe this to be true, but the dems are not differentiating them from the thugs. They need to deliver then brag forever about it.

[RKP5637]

44. Because many democrats are damn fools! They sit home and don't vote somehow

thinking in their lame minds they are changing the system and/or demonstrating their disapproval of the status quo, or perhaps too lazy. Well, they did change the system, more republicans got into office. Yep, that Idiocracy by democrats worked really well. Now, they will whine, WTF how did this happen.

[WillTwain]

50. I have never missed a vote and it is not always easy to vote dem but I do.

[RKP5637]

54. Same here. I always vote, research each candidate and also elected judges. I don't care for

some of the democrats I vote for, but I believe incremental change is better than none or really backsliding. No candidate is often perfect, so I try to pick the best I can.

[maddiemom]

62. Oh boy!

Let's go back to the way they treated Bill Clinton.

[Dustlawyer]

70. Until we get rid of the legalized bribery called "campaign contributions," we will continue to go

downhill. Democrats are not immune from the lure of corporate money. They own both sides now, this is why we are failing. We must face this fact and unite to change it. If we can get behind Bernie Sanders, who is the only national politician to advocate attacking the root cause of our problems, we may have a shot at turning this around.
Any form of government will always be under attack by the wealthy and powerful. It is up to us, the citizens of this nation, to remain vigilant and knock back the attempts by the powerful to take control. We have been lulled to sleep and allowed the corporations and the very wealthy to buy our government, judiciary, and control almost all media. They have us blaming each other for problems they have created. The Right excuses the behavior of their politicians because us Libruls are so evil. The Left overlooks abuses by their politicians for the same reason. Sure, we get mad and call them "spineless" when they vote against us instead of calling it what it is, "corruption!"
I believe we need to fight for Publicly Funded Elections and take away the ability to legally bribe our Representatives. At this point, they are our Representatives in name only.

[project_bluebook]

37. Too much money in politics for elections to matter

Its no longer a government or system by the people and the only way it will change is through a US Perestroika or worse.

[RiverLover]

112. For ex, Democrats who voted for the CRomnibus have received 2xs as much $$ from the finance industry

Democrats who voted for the CRomnibus have received twice as much money from the finance industry as the ‘no’ voters
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/12/12/democrats-who-voted-for-the-spending-bill-have-received-twice-as-much-money-from-the-finance-industry-as-the-no-voters/


And the best corporate sponsors of all?

Bill and Hillary Clinton: Couple Has Raised More Than $1 Billion in Two Decades; Republicans Worry of Early Lead in 2016
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-bill-and-hillary-clinton-money-machine-taps-corporate-cash-1404268205

[WillTwain]

113. The Beat Goes On

It never ends. Does Bernie have a snowballs chance in hell?

[project_bluebook]

130. I wish Bernie did but will never happen.

He is too honest, too caring to be elected president. Presidents now days, like corporate CEO's, need to be cut throat sociopathic types.

[99Forever]

4. Oh, there's another alternative.

It involves pitchforks, torches, and guillotines.

The question is, how far do we get pushed before we turn to that?

[WillTwain]

6. This is very possible

The pot is nearly boiling and the right-wing can only hold the lid down for so long.

[DrDan]

14. I don't think our founding fathers ever imagined the extent to which greed could dominate our lives

religion, education, charities . . . nothing is exempt from money-grabbing.

[WillTwain]

15. They did not imagine much of what we now live in

They had no idea AK 47s would be stashed by the dozens in people's homes. They had no idea about radio and television and their power of persuasion. They could not predict Wall Street. They had no idea how willfully ignorant most people are.

They knew about greed, but did not do enough about it. They were far from perfect.

[951-Riverside]

23. America never was and isnt a democracy

Its a republic.

[Odin2005]

29. That's a Puke talking point.

The US is supposed to be a republic and a democracy. The "republic-not-a-democracy" BS is a RW meme used to justify attacks on voting rights.

[951-Riverside]

69. America isnt even a Democratic Republic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_republic

[Odin2005]

88. No, but it is supposed to be.

In reality it is an oligarchical republic with superficially democratic features, like Rome before Caesar.

[jeepers]

58. It is not a democracy but a representative plutocracy

The Greek democracy of which we speak existed between 600 and 350 BC.. and for two thousand years after that the word democracy was used as a pejorative to describe chaos and mob rule. Not until the French revolution in 1800 was democracy tried again on a national scale and the word regain some semblance of respect.

American history is a lie and until you figure that out you will be condemned to repeat it to paraphrase George Santayana.

I believe democracy is still out there waiting for some brave and noble people to pick up the banner and march it forward.

[MFrohike]

72. Boring

A representative democracy, or republic, is a subset of the larger governmental family known as democracy. Thanks for playing.

It'd be more convincing if you said the federal government is not a direct democracy. It's less convincing when you include the states because, well, there's a lot of ways the average citizen can directly affect law- and rulemaking, as well as the implementation and execution of law. Contrary to popular belief, self-rule involves a lot more than voting for a national government every couple of years.

[Odin2005]

28. I'll be crucified for saying this, but a benvolent dictatorship is looking better every day.

Give somebody like Sanders or Warren dictatorial powers for 8 years to bypass the gridlock and fix the country. The Athenians did it when they gave the great Solon complete power to remake Athenian society and government amd that put them on the path to democracy.

[WillTwain]

31. FDR was as close as we ever got and it was great.

[Odin2005]

35. My thinking is that most Americans think only about the president when...

...it comes to politics, a lot of people don't even know who their damned Congresscritters are! Hence the idiots one both sides that blame the president for problems originating from failures in the legislative branch of our government.

Fine, if people want the President responsible for everything then let him/her be responsible for everything, and then don't come back to me screaming about how the president is a horrible, evil dictator because he/she did something you didn't like.

[WillTwain]

42. Very True

The pres is very important, though as salesman-in-chief. He does set the agenda and is often a charismatic person with great propaganda skills. So yes the pres gets too much praise and too much criticism but he is important. Bench the quarterback, then put the benched quarterback back in. It is a team sport.

[RKP5637]

53. Yes, that is what will be needed, another FDR, and a populace that gets their

head out of their butt and looks toward the future at what will work best for ALL. Our system has handsomely rewarded a skewed wealth distribution, greed, power brokers and either direct or mimicked sociopathic behavior. It will be a system very difficult to change IMO.

[WillTwain]

56. I am selling out. Buying an M.B.A. from Capella University and conquering the world.

Sarcasm.

[RKP5637]

63. ...

[unrepentant progress]

61. Heh. Did you ever see the anime series Higashi no Eden (Eden of the East)?

Huge spoiler (select to view):
[div style="color:white"]The basic premise is an old rich guy who holds a covert competition to find the perfect philosopher king to remake modern Japan. Excellent series even if you don't agree with the outcome.
//End spoiler

I seriously doubt either would accomplish very much except heartache if they were king. It's not just the politics but the culture too. Things used to be so different. Things like unions or the Grange weren't about just winning economic concessions, but social centers too. The way I see it, politics and rulers are just the tip of the iceberg. What's below the surface depends on us.

[Odin2005]

89. Sounds interesting!

I'll have to look for that show!

[chrisa]

104. The problem is, the "benevolent dictatorship" would never end. A dictator can just extend their

reign indefinitely. Secondly, dictators almost never care about their populace. The goal of a dictatorship is usually either power or (their peoples') money. They also don't care much for dissenting opinions.

[WillTwain]

106. Benevolent is the key word

But is is mono-generational. This is true. But one great fair man can do immense good that would take generations (or Ronald Reagan) to break up.

[chrisa]

107. There isn't such a thing, imo. A dictator is a dictator. None can ever be trusted.

A 'benevolent' dictator earned their title by fooling others into believing that they're harmless. On the other hand, try challenging their power in any way - they'll show you how benevolent they really are.

People here don't understand what a dictatorship would really be like - even one that is "benevolent." Freedom is difficult to maintain when you have it, but near-impossible to get back once you throw it away.

[WillTwain]

114. It will need to be some sort of revolution. Maybe an occupy Wall Street derivative.

But, I think people need to wake up about the importance of unions. If I am correct, even occupiers pushed them away. Not smart.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

33. It definitely needs some heavy tweaking.

[2banon]

36. The system was a failed experiment from the onset.

apart from the obvious inequities with regard to race and gender, the beginnings of a class system rife with profound corruption tied to the origins of the financial system that got set up and of course intertwined as it is now, with political office.

New York City was essentially the capital of this country in terms of political and economical structuring and institutionalization of wealth & power.

Tammany Hall was not some antiquated anomaly, isolated to New York City, it got created in the wake of the American Revolution before the ink was dried on the parchment containing the Constitution.

Despite the "Fall of Tammany Hall" 50 some odd years ago, new crops of these poisonous mushrooms keep blooming from the fertile horse manure cultured over 200 years ago.

[WillTwain]

39. Like Great Britain, the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree.

Last edited Sat Dec 27, 2014, 08:30 PM - Edit history (1)

[world wide wally]

38. Even the "best" player on a team is not necessarily "good"

The authors of the Constitution came up with the best possible solutions in theory, but we now see how that has played out. The RW gimmick is to push deregulation of all things that can be turned into profit, and the low information voter (American idiot) thinks this is "rebel" talk
and it makes them think they are "free" if they buy into it.

Absolutely Orwellian politics at work.
*Give everyone a little
*Keep them working to make ends meet so they are too exhausted to fight for a big change
*Sedate them with a passive drug (TV)
*Pretend to be on their side
*Make them believe that God is on the same side
*Baffle them with bullshit (FoxNews propaganda)
*Take all their money
*Game over

[WillTwain]

41. A recipe for feudalism

Last edited Sat Dec 27, 2014, 01:32 PM - Edit history (1)

I would add a dash of union hatred but otherwise you have it down.

[world wide wally]

46. Feudalism or maybe more like a Dickens novel with the aristocracy and the working poor

[WillTwain]

51. Who da thunk it 50 years ago?

[rock]

59. My take (a summary)

A good Democracy needs 1) heavy voter participation and 2) leaders. We seem to be a little short on both.

[Demeter]

67. Any good society of any flavor Needs that

a good democracy needs accurate public information and honest public servants. We have neither.

What has really broken our system of governship is that the "leadership" hasn't those essential things anymore, either. They believe their own propaganda (lies) and will sell each other out for pocket change. They no longer reserve their contempt just for the unwashed public. It's every hack for himself, these days.

[rock]

76. Very true n/t

[FrodosPet]

135. Occupy taught us to not have leaders

We should all be marching in the same direction organically. Leadership is considered authoritarianism.

[JDPriestly]

65. Sad but true.

[Cryptoad]

66. It is working very well for,,,,

the majority of those that vote! BTW,,,if these Quasi- Anarchist spent as much time getting good candidates to run and getting the vote out as they do whining and complaining about how democracy has failed, things may not seem so gloomy for Progressives.

[WillTwain]

68. Cryptoad

You do not know me or the constant efforts I have made so before you leap to judgements ask a few questions. If you have done more than me, I am extremely impressed.

This is merely a discussion board. Treat it as such. Let's talk without the insults and name calling.

[Cryptoad]

75. Critical Reading is Critical

My post was not directed toward you personally.
Never claimed that I know you or your efforts
Never called you a name
If you are insulted it must be cause my post hit close to home.

[WillTwain]

77. Come on man

enough with the pot shots. I am just trying to have a mellow conversation. This is not about hitting close to home. Exhausting.

[Rex]

81. LOL. You will learn who around here actually wants to have a discussion

and who wants you to just follow their narrative, rather quickly! Some here couldn't care less about what you say, just so long as you never rock the boat or question authority.

Goodluck! You will need it if all you want is an actual conversation on the topic.

Sadly we quit doing that back on DU2.

[Cryptoad]

85. then don't accuse people of things they didn't do........

[dawg]

93. Actually, it's working pretty shitty for the majority of those who actually vote, but ...

it's their own damn fault.

[Prism]

71. "A Republic, If You Can Keep It"

We're not being very good guardians of the Republic. If people got out there and voted, much would change. Our politicians suck and corporations have their sticky fingers in everything, but we have lost a civic culture over time where voting was a big deal and point of pride. Communities should be reinforcing a culture of voting. We don't. We reinforce a culture of grousing. And the internet hasn't made it any better. If I had a nickel for every facebook friend that posts political memes and then proceeds to not vote on election day.

Beliefs are nice. Actions are better. We're not a very act-y people these days. It will take a culture shift to budge that. Probably when everything goes in the shitter.

Or not. Partisanship is also corrosive. We tolerate a lot of crap as long as it's "our guy" doing it. Here in California, I've been watching Jerry Brown go to absolute town on social services. If this were a Republican, people would be screaming bloody murder. Instead, we get glowing posts about Democrats and California's surplus.

Yeah, that surplus is partly being piled on the backs of the poor, the elderly, and the disabled. Uh, yay us?

[closeupready]

73. What has failed democracy is legalized bribery.

It has had the effect of corrupting every single institution in the US. The only reason it hasn't made inroads in other Western democracies is because, paradoxically, they lack cultural consensus and thus, remain atomized. A highly centralized government induces corruption, and that's what Europe lacks.

[Demeter]

86. OH, Europe is well-corrupted

The Euro scheme has trashed the continent economically and politically. The Elite in charge doesn't even go through the motions of elections, anymore. Most of them are Goldman Sachs alumni.

[Rex]

80. Yes but democracy is not important, it turns out capitalism was the only thing that mattered.

As soon as the first corporate criminal got away with destroying thousands of families and getting a huge annual bonus, they've all been stampeding to be the next bankster to break the nations economy.

When you hold the door open to the vault for a bank robber and promise him no reprisals, expect him back the next day for more money.

[hifiguy]

83. Mr. Madison's Republic rested on one key premise above all others:

That the citizenry would be educated, informed, and take politics seriously.

For the last 35 years, at least, the populace has been dumbed down to a point that would make Madison, Jefferson, Franklin, Washington and their ilk chug a case of whisky in despair and tear their hair out.

TPTB learned long ago, and took special note of a certain period in 20th century German history, how a easily a mass populace can be manipulated. Even Goebbels didn't try to make the German people DUMBER. But our oligarchs' first project was to make as many people as dumb as possible. Sheeple are very easy to control and can easily be convinced to vote against their own interests.

The New Fascists want a populace that is just barely smart enough to make the machines work and fill out the forms, but are nowhere near smart enough to think critically and ask questions such as "just who the fuck put us in this handcart and why is it getting so hot?"

[Odin2005]

92. 100 years ago the conservative German historian Oswald Spengler argued...

that the propaganda potential of the modern media would destroy "Liberal Democracy" and leave Western society open to "Caesarism", Westerners would increasingly side with wannabe populist dictators to save them from "Money".

[WillyT]

96. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!!

[randome]

95. Our founding fathers were slave owners.

Their view of democracy was absurd from the very start. But I don't think democracy has failed us. We have changed it and it has changed us.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you don't give yourself the same benefit of a doubt you'd give anyone else, you're cheating someone.[/center][/font][hr]

[ileus]

97. dictatorship....if only....

[CJCRANE]

98. We can start building our own systems

right here right now from the ground up.

Find ways to make your community more self-sufficient in every thing it needs such as food and energy. Start reducing your reliance on centralized systems and corporations. A simple first step could be as simple as turning off the TV and reading a book. It starts now.

[Oakenshield]

101. I'd say it has always been a failure.

The only thing that's changed over the years is the degree of failure. We'd all be better off if the British had won the revolutionary war. You can't tell me a parliamentary system of government is inferior to our backwater politics.

[chrisa]

103. Interesting outlook. but wanting an Authoritarian government isn't going to fix our problems

any more than it did Europe's. Funny that the term "benevolent dictator" is being passed around - there is no such thing. Any form of dictatorship is unacceptable.

[Hekate]

105. wtf. The Founders didn't "fail" us; we failed ourselves. It's the job of every new generation to ...

...write the founding documents anew, to interpret them anew. How else did we get rid of slavery? How else did women get the vote?

Jefferson and the rest didn't come down from the mountaintop with commandments carved in stone for all time. They were both fallible human beings and geniuses, not gods.

So if this country fails as badly as you say, look in the goddam mirror.

[Enthusiast]

108. Sickening ain't it?

[raouldukelives]

110. Most people are conservaties at heart.

At least, those that fund & support the corporations that have slowly but surely eroded our system of regulations, checks & balances until it bears no resemblance to anything but a Corporatocracy.
We are what we do, everyday. Not what we wish to be or imagine ourselves to be.
The problem is there are many people who have worked diligently, in full knowledge that the corporations were waging war against democracy, to provide material support and comfort to them and to those who wish us to fail. When one looks around today, all one can say to them is mission accomplished.

[WillTwain]

115. Conservatism is about fear and these are scary times. This sways wishy washy types to the right.

I think 40 percent are liberals, 40 percent are conservatives, 20 percent are totally confused and vulnerable to all sorts of psychological ploys. From group think, to fear of rejection from peers, to on the job corporate pressures, living in a hardcore capitalist society, consumerism, militarism, etc. At this negative time, the 20 percent of weaklings are pulled to the side of fear and hate so they vote conservative.

Until this country feels good again, we are in trouble. The problem is as long as people are full of fear, they will continue to support those that make them afraid.

[FirstClassTicket]

111. Most good ideas eventually fail due to human nature.

Yes, I agree that American democracy has failed. But it failed for the same reason that Marxism failed in the Soviet Union: human nature. The Soviets came down heavily on the "nurture" side of the nature vs. nurture debate. They thought that an infant was a tabula rasa, and if you raised children just right, you could make them perfect socialist citizens.

The reality, of course, is that humans are animals and as such we have many inborn, instinctive behaviors, and they cannot all be overcome by "nurture." One of them is greed ("Some animals are more equal than others&quot , and another is the need to arrange ourselves in a hierarchy. Hierarchies of power helped early humans survive; the trait has been heavily selected for by millions of years of evolution. It's not going to disappear any time soon. Most people don't bother to vote in the US because of that very thing: they are biologically programmed to follow the leader, not to be the leader. I'm convinced that most people are simply not fit to participate in democratic self-rule, no matter how badly we all wish they were.

What comes next is designing a system of government that takes human nature into account and compensates for its weaknesses while still allowing us to progressively do better and better.

[WillTwain]

117. But the earth is only 6000 years old. It cannot be evolution. Sarcasm. Europe is taking the approach

They take a technocratic view and try to keep the average citizen a bit removed from policy making. It seems to be working much better than the train wreck we have.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

116. If so few people are capable of governing themselves how fewer are capable of governing others? nt

[WillTwain]

118. It does not require huge numbers to govern. America thrived from FDR to Carter.

Democrats ran the show for half a century and this country was spectacular.

[RiverLover]

121. Favorite post to date!!!!!!

Thank you.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

122. "Spectacular"?

The Cold War, the Bay of Pigs, Vietnam, the CIA running all over Central and South America, race riots, social upheaval, assassinations, Dixiecrats, etc.

And, yes, it does require huge numbers to govern, particularly when the number of people to be governed is huge.

At a minimum you'll need (435 + 100 + 1) * 0.51 untainted, good-hearted, right-minded people to pass the laws you want. You can't even get that many people to agree with things here on DU.

And in case you find representative government to be too messy remember that people can applaud someone like de Blasio all they want but without a police force he's powerless.

And then there are the bureaucrats. Those who are never fired in spite of the recurring debacles, waste, fraud and abuse (QED VA).

And that's even assuming the people want what you're offering. Many laws are simply ignored.

Humanity was created / evolved in a state of anarchy. Yes, people do organize but these massive nation states are an aberration to humanity's natural state. That is why, as your OP title observes, nation states don't work.

[WillTwain]

123. We had smaller numbers governing between 1930 and 1980.

It is not about huge numbers just the right people. We need a Huey Long or FDR running the show. Some think populism will not sell. I do not agree. We have not had a real hardcore populist run for office since FDR and he won four elections.

Bill was not a populist.
Barack is not a populist.

We have not had an extremely popular dem since FDR. We have not nominated a populist since then. Do you see a connection?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

133. How long has it been since Long and Roosevelt?

How many corrupt and incompetent and faux-populists have we seen since then?

[WillTwain]

134. Long was the greatest populist and was looking to run against Roosevelt when he was shot.

Long was the thirties, FDR died in 1945.

The funny thing is we have not even had a true populist president since probably LBJ in the sixties. So fifty years have passed without a president that truly fought for workers. Sort of easy to see the results.

The last progressive candidate was probably Mondale in 1984. he got crushed for saying he would raise taxes during the campaign. Reagan promised pie in the sky and sold lies. John Kerry was pretty good,too.

After the landslide defeat, the dems ran as far as fast as they could from anything progressive. Biggest mistake they could have made. At this point, nobody even knows what a progressive is and how much it matters to workers. They should have taken a few beatings all the while sticking to their roots and message. The stark contrast would look good today.

Clinton was probably the biggest faux-liberal we had, Obama would bump into Bill if Clinton stopped walking in front of him.

It's been a long time coming and if Hillary wins, it will be a long time gone. I do not know what to do to make Hill a progressive, though that looks like our best hope, unless Bernie or Elizabeth catch fire.

[moondust]

120. Moneygrubbing rulez!

Profits over people!

Capitalism over democracy!

Let the markets decide!

"Economic royalists" and their (GOP/DINO) servants in government don't really like democracy in general because it gives poor people a vote in how things go. What could poor people possibly know?

The fact that twelve U.S. Presidents owned slaves is a pretty good indicator of what the U.S. is all about. It's liable to get worse from here as the inequality divide worsens.

(Remind me to be born in Denmark next time. )

[WillTwain]

126. We should let the south secede.

Take most of the plains states, too.

The country is too big and the senate is rigged against the progressives.

Add the populations of N. Dakota, S.Dakota, Kansas, Nebraska, Wyoming, Oklahoma, Montana, Utah and Alaska together and you do not equal California or New York or Florida. Yet the senator ratio is 18 to 2. What a mess.

[cyberswede]

128. ...

Democracy is when the indigent, and not the men of property, are the rulers.
- Aristotle

We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office.
- Aesop

I weep for the liberty of my country when I see at this early day of its successful experiment that corruption has been imputed to many members of the House of Representatives, and the rights of the people have been bartered for promises of office.
- Andrew Jackson

[lunatica]

131. Why do you think this moment is the End Result For All Time...?

Things evolve. Thinks get stalled. Things devolve. Things slide back. Then things leap forward. Things, like history tend to arc towards liberalism and progresivism.

Things never stay the same. There is no moment frozen forever in time.

[EX500rider]

132. Democracy is the worst form of government...

.....except for all the others.