Another "Orthodox Jews were seen to "--fill in the blank--" thread today!

[PCIntern]

One could probably find, say 35 million examples of the equivalent DAILY, in countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and the like. But because Orthodox Jews are involved, it becomes a serious discussion. Now of course, I am NOT subscribing to their, IMO, idiotic rules in this modern society, but the dwelling upon JEWS is, well, somewhat disturbing and has become a trend around here. But of course, this post alone will lead to much sputtering, gasping, and pearl-clutching by many, including those who tell misogynisitic jokes when their wives/girlfriends,sisters leave the room, but then, who's counting?

Here's an exciting thread title: Two Jewish Physicians develop vaccines which end polio.

Here's another: Jewish Physicist wins Nobel Prize for the discovery and explication of the Photoelectric Effect and later proffers Theory of Special Relativity.

How about this one: Jewish actress to play Tiffany Case upon the return of Sean Connery to the Bond franchise

Or this: Jewish Baseball player named by Sports Illustrated Magazine as the Athlete of the Twentieth Century

While we're at it: Jewish Composer at sixteen years of age assisted by his twelve year old sister pens themes for Shakespeare's a Midsummer Night's Dream including the Wedding March used by couples for hundreds of years.

How's this: Jew sacrifices his life for his beliefs: is crucified by Romans and vanishes into air three days later. Disciples claim that he is the Son of God.

I haven't seen too many of these kinds of posts lately...

[Sheldon Cooper]

1. Wow. A bit sensitive, are we?

A bunch of ultra-orthodox Jews show their asses on a plane and you're upset about the response to it? Weird.

[PCIntern]

2. No…typical response around here...

what I'm saying, if you read my post, is that the equivalent occurs within WHOLE SOCIETIES DAILY, and there ain't no threads 'about that, are there?
On edit: You think I'm weird because I posit a question to a group? Who is weird now, Pal?

[Sheldon Cooper]

3. No threads? Are you kidding me?

Do you actually read this website?

[PCIntern]

5. Are you kidding me?

Yes, I have been here for ten years: the number of these Orthodox posts greatly exceeds the proportion of occurrences in the known Universe of biases within religion, and typically run up over a hundred responses. That for sitting on particular seat on a plane. When a woman is STONED TO DEATH for an alleged adulterous relationship, the same people who show up for the Orthos are not to be found.

Yes I READ THIS SITE. Sheldon.

[Sheldon Cooper]

13. LOL!!

I don't actually care how long you've been here on this esteemed website. Any religion that shuns women because they own a vagina deserves to be mocked and ridiculed, long and loud. Tough cookies, as the saying goes.

[PCIntern]

14. religion?

You condemn all Jews because of the actions of the Extreme Orthodoxy? Really?
Sheldon?

[Sheldon Cooper]

17. Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

And props for trying to turn the argument against me, as if I'm anti-Semite or something. It's the only option when you're getting your ass handed to you, amiright??

[PCIntern]

23. Jesus…nice try.

But not good enough… youamwrong.

My "ass" is not being "handed to me" by you or anyone else on this Board. Language!!!!

[Sheldon Cooper]

26. Sure fine, Hoss. Whatever gets you through the night.

[PCIntern]

33. You surrendered so soon…nt

[Sheldon Cooper]

37. Your post is not worth any further effort.

Sorry.

[PCIntern]

38. Trite and specious remark. Bye. nt

[Sheldon Cooper]

39. Sure, that's how to dismiss things when it's not going your way.

Bye yourself!

[treestar]

72. What is with the bad faith arguing on this site lately?

You know very well Sheldon cooper did not "condemn all Jews."

[jberryhill]

79. I'm starting to wonder whether increased CO2 in the atmosphere makes people antsy

[jberryhill]

76. He said "Any religion that shuns women because they own a vagina"

Am I to understand from your response that his statement defines "all Jews"?

The misogynist scumbags on this airplane are not representative of "all Jews", no matter how hard you want to argue that they are.

You actually want to stand up for these guys:

[treestar]

83. Whoah, who are they?

Those hats!

[jberryhill]

86. They are the anti-Israel nutbars the OP is supporting

The Haredim consider the Israeli government to be an abomination of some sort.







And, yeah, they have the most awesome hats ever:

[Tsiyu]

80. +1000000000000000000000000000000000000 n/t

[treestar]

71. Baloney

Rarely are there posts about Orthodox Jews. Most of the posts about religious extremists are about Christians.

[jberryhill]

7. Because we live in THIS society

This event did not happen in Saudi Arabia.

[PCIntern]

12. And Gaza didn't happen in the Bronx…nt

[jberryhill]

43. and this year's non-sequitur award goes to PCIntern

[malaise]

73. Where did this happen?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/31/us-israel-un-reject-palestinian-resolution-nigeria-security-council
<snip>
US and Israeli intervention led UN to reject Palestinian resolution
Binyamin Netanyahu and John Kerry called Goodluck Jonathan to ask Nigeria to abstain from crucial security council vote

The UN security council rejected a Palestinian resolution demanding an end to Israeli occupation within three years after Israel and the US crucially intervened to persuade Nigeria to abstain from voting.

Palestinian officials and other observers had thought Nigeria would back a Jordanian-tabled resolution, thereby delivering a nine-vote majority on the council which would have required a US veto to be blocked. Washington had been working strenuously to avoid having to use its veto.

Until shortly before the vote on Tuesday, council diplomats had expected the resolution to get nine yes votes. But Nigeria abstained, with its ambassador, U Joy Ogwu, echoing the US position in saying that the path to peace lay “in a negotiated solution”.

[Texasgal]

4. Oh waaah.

This is a discussion board. Discussions happen.

[PCIntern]

6. so I'm discussing...

what's your point?

[LeftyMom]

8. Ah yes, the "But Saudi Arabia!" retort to charges of misogyny.

It's always a sure-fire indicator that something is absolutely indefensible if the excuse one can even attempt is that people in arguably the most backward place on the planet are ever so slightly worse.

Here's the deal: most DUers can manage to avoid Saudi Arabia. Certainly any lady DUers with a bit of sense would do so. Avoiding a flight into or out of NYC? Not so much.

[PCIntern]

10. Oh…so if it doesn't happen here, it's OK and not worthy of discussion

is that right?

News to me…what is happening to the Palestinians seems worthy of discussion…at least it sure is here…

so I'm not supposed to note that discussion threads involving Jews are front and center. Just say, "Yes". It's easier...

[LeftyMom]

15. There's a great deal of discussion on DU of international news.

There is of course more discussion of US-based news and much of the international news discussion centers on US actions and interests. The userbase is primarily American and the discussions are in English, after all.

Instead of yelling at DUers for calling out blatant misogyny because it hurts your feefees why don't you tell your coreligionists to stop freaking out about women existing?

[PCIntern]

16. You tell 'em….

I'm too busy fending off anti-Semitic attacks cloaked as "peri-societal criticism".

[LeftyMom]

19. THEY'RE NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO ME. I HAVE A VAGINA THEREFORE EVIL.

[PCIntern]

20. No one is defending their actions, Mom...

did you happen to understand the substance of my OP? Go back and read it again. Or don't.

[LeftyMom]

35. I understand it, I just think it's ill-considered and needlessly defensive.

But the bottom line is that when people on DU call out misogynists you're standing up for the misogynists (provided they're Jewish) and not for women. Which says absolutely everything I need to know about you.

[VanillaRhapsody]

81. have to agree with you LeftyMom...

Misogyny doesn't get a religious pass.....

[PCIntern]

18. …and I know that...

it's the other poster who is making the counter-argument, not I.

[Scootaloo]

58. You're nostril-deep in whataboutism. How's the smell? n/t

[Archae]

9. Jews? Try Palestinians.

Those Orthodox Jews were being assholes, obviously on that plane.
"We can't sit next to a GURL...she'll give us cooties!"

But just try taking Palestinians to task when they are being assholes as well.
Palestinian media refers to the punks who killed those Jews in a synagogue, as "martyrs."

[PCIntern]

11. Not just Palestinian media, my friend… nt

[Capt. Obvious]

60. Palestinians control the media!

[jberryhill]

87. Yeah, the Haredim do too

You are seriously going to take a stand for these nuts?

[elleng]

21. 'Become a trend around here,' really?

[PCIntern]

24. Yeah..elleng

I was awaiting your presence here….and you know exactly why.

[Spider Jerusalem]

22. If Muslims had delayed a flight because they refused to sit next to a woman, that'd be news, too

fundamentalist misogyny is going to attract comment here, whether the people engaging in it are Jewish, Muslim, Christian, or Zoroastrian. If you have a problem with that, you should probably find another forum.

[PCIntern]

25. It might be news,

but it sure as heck wouldn't excite people around here this much. Oh…do I have to find another forum? I'm not allowed to have an opinion which counters yours? Really?

[Capt. Obvious]

84. Spider is denying your right to self-determination

[jberryhill]

88. When the "Flying Imams" were kicked OFF of their flight, there were threads at DU about it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_imams_incident

[Arcanetrance]

27. So after reading the story that prompted this thread

All Jews shouldn't be painted badly by the actions of the guys who showed their ass today on that flight. But this does lead to a conversation that needs to be had. Those societies that degrade women in the middle east are the constant source of negative attention by most. But why don't we speak about the ultra orthodox Jews in this country that still live by those same rules of segregating women from the rest of the population. Why should they be immune from the same harsh criticism that countries like Saudi Arabia are

[PCIntern]

30. they're not…I said that...

that being said, note the disproportionate outrage when it involves Jews. the excuse often given is that well, Muslim societies, well, you know, there's all that stuff there. Move along now…I hear a rabbi farted on the bimah.

[Arcanetrance]

31. No society or group should get away with it

I think this made news more because the flight delay and uproar over it than anything else. I don't think there's that much hatred of Jewish people here at DU

[Behind the Aegis]

46. Feel free not to answer.

Are you Jewish?

BTW: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6020092 That is just in the past few days.

[Arcanetrance]

82. Half Jewish actually my dad's Jewish my mom's Italian

Those quotes are disturbing but they're all trolls. I'd hope that members who are regularly active contributing members of DU wouldn't hold those opinions.

[Behind the Aegis]

92. And one had been here for awhile.

It is nice to hope regular members don't hold those opinions, but a few do; and have learned to adapt. It is very easy for them to spew their filth in the guise of "telling news."

[NewDeal_Dem]

47. Fundamentalist sects apparently the faster growing segment of Judaism.

How many wake-up calls do we need?

The spate of communal misogyny in Israel and the United States, carried out under the pretext of a religious mandate, yet unjustified even by ultra-Orthodox interpretations of Halacha; Haredi America’s wall of silence about sexual abuse; and a variety of other scandals in the Haredi world, such as the targeting of a dissident Hasid in New Square, N.Y., and allegations of financial improprieties. All of these have made headlines.

Yet those of us who care about Jewish communities in the U.S. and Israel have yet to get serious about the threat of Jewish fundamentalism to the vibrancy of our people. Yes, in recent weeks, girls being spit on and women pushed to the back of public buses have attracted public outrage, media exposure and statements of condemnation from across the Israeli political spectrum.

But the deeper problem remains: Not this or that policy, or this or that outrageous display of hypocrisy or sexism, but Jewish fundamentalism in general.

According to a recent study by CBS, the Haredi population of Israel is set to grow 580% in the next half-century. National Religious (Orthodox), secular and other Israeli Jews are expected to become a minority in Israel, squeezed between growing ultra-Orthodox and Arab populations. Even in America, Haredi Jews represent the fastest-growing sector of the Jewish population, threatening not only secular Jewish culture but non-fundamentalist religious Judaism as well.

Ignoring this demographic threat would bring costs as severe as ignoring assimilation or anti-Semitism: the shrinking of the Jewish culture and people, and a powerful fundamentalist bloc that, as in much of the Islamic world, will eventually define Judaism, both internally and externally.


Read more: http://forward.com/articles/148983/fighting-back-against-fundamentalism/?p=all#ixzz3NSdGGN00



Read more: http://forward.com/articles/148983/fighting-back-against-fundamentalism/?p=all#ixzz3NSd4hfb6

[JI7]

48. this can be misleading because if they are a very small number to begin with

even a high percentage growth could still mean they would still make up a small number.

[NewDeal_Dem]

49. The article claims that fundamentalists will outnumber mainstream Jews in Israel. It's not me.

"National Religious (Orthodox), secular and other Israeli Jews are expected to become a minority in Israel, squeezed between growing ultra-Orthodox and Arab populations. Even in America, Haredi Jews represent the fastest-growing sector of the Jewish population, threatening not only secular Jewish culture but non-fundamentalist religious Judaism as well."

[JI7]

50. i have a hard time believing this, are there actual numbers and details of the study ?

[NewDeal_Dem]

51. Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4209333,00.html


CBS predicts Arab-haredi majority in 2059


A Central Bureau of Statistics forecast predicts that haredim and Arabs will outnumber the secular population in Israel in 47 years. Israel's population is slated to grow to 15.6 million.

The CBS predicted that 2019 will see 5.84 million non-haredi Jews living in Israel, compared with 5.27 million in 2009. The number is expected to grow to anywhere between 6.09 million and 9.95 million by 2059. This marks a 16%-89% increase compared with today's figures.

According to the CBS forecast, the ultra-Orthodox population will number 1.1 million people by 2019, compared with 750,000 in 2009. By 2059, there will be anywhere etween 2.73 million and 5.84 million haredim – a 264%-686% increase.

It is therefore possible that there will be an equal number of non-haredi Jews and haredim in 2059.

[JI7]

54. this doesn't really say much , based on this there could be over 9 million secular jews

and under 3 million of the fundies.

at least in the near future there isn't anything to show the fundies will gain much on the seculars.

[nilesobek]

55. Occasionally I end up reading

in the IP group an article published in GD. One thing I noticed right away was popularity of the IP group is very high if you look at the number of posts over the years. The numbers dwarf other group totals.

I think you are right. There is a disproportionate response to the issues that involve Jews, even if people claim that its not there or they are not interested. I think there is lot of hidden feelings and agendas there.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. "There is a disproportionate response to the issues that involve Jews"

Unless it is about anti-Semitism....http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026020070 now, contrast with: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026023977 or the one this post is referencing: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026021855

[nilesobek]

57. That I hadn't noticed.

Thanks for the link. It helps when tryong to read between the lines. There is an unorganized brigade ready to jump on anything. Interesting names.

[hifiguy]

91. Wen they make the news

they get their fair share of stick, no more, no less. Last summer there was a story about sex-segregated buses in ultra-orthodox parts of NYC and the patented DU vitriol that emerges in the face of fundy stupidity of any denomination was present and accounted for. I know because I was a participant in that thread.

[Electric Monk]

28. Hmm, I hadn't seen that thread yet. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6021855


Are you familiar with the Barbra Streisand effect?

[PCIntern]

32. yeah…she happens to be Jewish but that doesn't upset me...

it's another proud feather in our caps…my wife is thought to resemble her sufficiently that she's occasionally mistaken for her when we're out.

If you didn't see the thread, you haven't been perusing the main page much.

[Electric Monk]

34. The Barbra Streisand Effect has nothing whatsoever to do with her being Jewish. nt

[PCIntern]

36. I know that...

but she is. That was my point.

[NaturalHigh]

29. K and R!

[1step]

40. Orthodox Jewish Cops are NOT killing unarmed Reform Jewish Civilians and getting away with it!

Sorry, but I'm failing entirely to grasp your point.

[SamKnause]

41. I don't give a crap what they have done.

Keep religion in your homes, schools, and places of worship.

No religious sect or denomination has the right to disrupt a plane full of people because of their beliefs.

It is insulting to women.

It is insulting to non believers.

They should charter a plane.

People should not have to put up with their insulting nonsense.

[Nye Bevan]

42. The extreme branches of most religions tend towards nuttiness,

and examples of this tend to be skewered by DUers whatever the religion. While I have seen a touch of anti-Semitism on DU, it is not pervasive. There is much more criticism here of Islamic fundamentalism and evangelical Christians.

[840high]

45. I found Jews and

Christians are criticized the most.

[Violet_Crumble]

53. At DU? That's not the case at all...

That's when it comes to all adherents of those religions.

When it comes to the fundy extremists of each religion, there should be criticism, and there is. In the case of this OP, they're seemingly complaining that DUers are talking about some misogynist extremists who didn't want to sit next to women on a plane and caused the flight to be delayed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026021855

For me the problem isn't OPs about religious extremists, it's the posts that appear that try to portray everyone of that religion as being extremists. And in the case of the OP that's being complained about, no-one was doing that. That's not the way it happens in other threads. Only a few weeks ago in LBN I watched the thread about the Sydney siege get overrun by a few DUers who used it (even though it wasn't terrorism, but a complete nutcase who'd murdered his ex-wife and was up on multiple rape charges) to peddle the RW 'religion of peace' nonsense, and in one case to equate extremist violence with billions of followers of the religion.

And to put this OP in perspective with the complaining about how dare people criticise fundies if they're Orthodox Jews, here's a post where the same person seems annoyed that more DUers weren't in the Sydney siege thread having a go at Islam and Muslims.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=965378

[Douglas Carpenter]

85. yeah, saw that - they are being utterly disingenuous to say the least

And to put this OP in perspective with the complaining about how dare people criticise fundies if they're Orthodox Jews, here's a post where the same person seems annoyed that more DUers weren't in the Sydney siege thread having a go at Islam and Muslims.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=965378

[jberryhill]

77. Ah, then it's obviously time for another hijab thread....

Start one off with this one....

[840high]

44. kick

[Behind the Aegis]

52. It was more than one...

The other was about "Snip-N-Suck Circumcision".

But, it is all OK...not we are not a real culture (except when it is useful).

[RandiFan1290]

59. Time for another GBCW post?

So obvious

[hobbit709]

61. When religious fundies of ANY religion act like assholes, then they are regarded as assholes.

They could have chartered a flight without any women aboard if they didn't want to see any.

[JustAnotherGen]

62. Kick and rec

[mmonk]

63. Actually, I see more anti-pope threads than about

anything else. Are you looking too deeply? Derogatory threads about religion are pretty plentiful.

[Tsiyu]

64. Well, it's ridiculous whenever it happens

no matter the "faith."

We're talking about the fundamentalists of the Jewish faith, not the mainstream and you know that.

I have reform orthodox Jews in the family and they don't pull that crap.

But the ultra orthodox Jewish are pissing a LOT of people off of late:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/534/a-not-so-simple-majority


Here's the sign they have in a PUBLIC TOWN in the US. What other US town would put up with this shit?

[PCIntern]

66. I believe the term is "Modern Orthodox"

...but what do I know?

It's funny...my OP was highly critical of the Black Hat sect of MY religion. That was not my issue. They act like assholes, yes. Will it be sufficient for me to say that, or do I have to throw myself on a pyre having first cut myself to ribbons with an x-acto knife? My point was that for all of the horrors perpetrated by religious sects in the world today, in America today, the occasional burp from the Orthodox community is over-represented in terms of posts and attention to them.

But let's return to the fundamental thesis that because these folks do this, then by extension the rest of us should come under some scrutiny. I mean, why else have the thread, right?

[Tsiyu]

67. Dude, I love ya' and respect ya'

but this new story is the front page everywhere right now.

People are always fascinated by idiots, no matter their faith or lack thereof.

My relatives call themselves Reformed Orthodox, but what do they know?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_Judaism

[PCIntern]

69. I didn't say anything in that regard...

once again my friend, my point was that as soon as a story like this "breaks", we're all over it with our typical DU pearl-clutching and Alas! but I repeat that there is a disproportionate response to these stories compared with the TRUE HORRORS PERPETRATED in other "cicumstances" and I'll be "circumspect" because..well, jsut because. And y'all know exactly what I'm referring to...

[Tsiyu]

78. do you think if you were female

you might have a different reaction to a story about this kind of superstition?

Being male might just blind you to how offensive these fundy pricks are, but since they wouldn't ever try to make YOU move to accommodate their imaginary fears, maybe you don't feel the same sense of outrage?

[ucrdem]

65. K'n'R for Mendelssohn's sister . . .

true or not it's a fine tale.

p.s. happy 2015 to all!

[Caretha]

68. Well

that last example is a little hard to swallow,

but I'm definitely interested in the 16 year old Jewish Composer. Sounds very interesting - got a link?

[oberliner]

74. Meet The Musical Mendelssohns: Felix And Fanny

http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecadence/2013/01/28/170484731/meet-the-musical-mendelssohns-felix-and-fanny

She was four years older than him though, not younger.

[treestar]

70. I don't agree at all

Muslims doing something like that would make the news.

Those men are extreme and ridiculous just like extremist Muslims and Christian fundies. Why should they get a pass?

[oberliner]

75. It is forbidden for a Muslim man to shake hands with a woman who is not related

Also a female Muslim is not permitted to be alone with a man in private who isn't related.

There are a lot of similarities between the Haredim and observant Muslims.

[JustAnotherGen]

89. Good points n/t

[hifiguy]

90. Christian fundies are roundly and rightly mocked on DU every day.

Sauce for the goose.... Stoopid is stoopid, whoever does it.