General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAw Crap... We All (Most Of Us) Stand By Barack Obama, BUT... When He's Wrong, We Will Say So...
Remember that old saw that says "If You Don't Vote... You Don't Get To Complain."
Well I voted for him... twice... And I do not give one shit about what Faux News and the Tea Party says...
I voted for him twice... And I get to complain when I think he is wrong. (TPP)
Why is that so hard to understand ???
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samsingh
(18,419 posts)billhicks76
(5,082 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)
Enrique
(27,461 posts)just so we're clear who we're talking about.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)we voted for regardless of how wrong they may be on issues that will affect millions of Americans?
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)love everything Hillary and Obama do that put up those huge pictures in their OPs. I guess they think if they yell loud enough and put up big enough pictures we will bow down and admit how perfect they are.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)
Jamastiene
(38,206 posts)In so many of the Tiger Beat threads, they post pictures of him from Hawaii without his shirt on, lol.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)
Me and the President
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
marym625
(17,997 posts)I cherish it. And I think the TPP is a bunch of hooey that will hurt the US a great deal.
Your post needed a picture so I thought I would help out
pnwmom
(110,255 posts)Name calling, as happened on another thread today, is not fine.
Is that hard to understand?
treestar
(82,383 posts)an attitude some take
And not agreeing with the criticism is not hero worship authoritarian and all the other straw man bad faith statements made so often.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and any discussion of TPP, that does not include the U.S. government's position is a bad faith discussion.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)"Any discussion"?
How about a discussion about the excessive secrecy about the TPP negotiations and the contents of the TPP?
How about a discussion about fast-tracking or trying to fast-track TPP when the text of the agreement has not been made available for national view and discussion?
How about the fact that from what we can tell, the TPP would deprive Congress of the authority to determine the limitations on copyrights, patents, etc. an authority granted in Article I, section 8 of the Constitution?
How about a discussion about our trade deficit which has grown steadily with each additional trade agreement?
How about a discussion about the fact that we as a nation have no strategy for competing in the global economy and that the big corporations intimidate the American people into refusing to even discuss such a strategy on the ground that organizing such a strategy would be socialism or Communism or some betrayal of freedom?
How about a discussion about all the jobs, good-paying jobs Americans have lost since we first started entering into "free" trade agreements?
And now, how about a discussion about how Obama is shamelessly trying to push Americans into approving this trade agreement which is so shamefully being concocted behind closed doors without much involvement from the middle class and working poor in America whose living standards will drop even further if the agreement is passed?
How about discussing our outsized trade deficit before negotiating much less agreeing to any more trade agreements?
How about it?
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Or, just to rehash the speculation of what might be in any agreement?
bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)first tell me what's Governments position on TPP, please give me the details.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Ensuring respect for worker rights is a core value. That is why in TPP the United States is seeking to build on the strong labor provisions in the most recent U.S. trade agreements by seeking enforceable rules that protect the rights of freedom of association and collective bargaining; discourage trade in goods produced by forced labor, including forced child labor; and establish mechanisms to monitor and address labor concerns.
Specifically, in the TPP we are seeking:
•Requirements to adhere to fundamental labor rights as recognized by the International Labor Organization, as well as acceptable conditions of work, subject to the same dispute settlement mechanism as other obligations in TPP;
•Rules that will ensure that TPP countries do not waive or derogate from labor laws in a manner that affects trade or investment, including in free trade zones, and that they take initiatives to discourage trade in goods produced by forced labor;
•Formation of a consultative mechanism to develop specific steps to address labor concerns when they arise; and
•Establishment of a means for the public to raise concerns directly with TPP governments if they believe a TPP country is not meeting its labor commitments, and requirements that governments consider and respond to those concerns.
ENVIRONMENT
Environmental stewardship is a core value and advancing environmental protection and conservation efforts across the Asia-Pacific region is a key priority for the United States in TPP. In addition to core environment obligations, we are seeking trailblazing, first-ever conservation proposals to address some of the region’s most urgent environmental challenges.
Specifically, in the TPP we are seeking:
•Strong and enforceable environment obligations, subject to the same dispute settlement mechanism as other obligations in TPP;
•Commitments to effectively enforce domestic environmental laws, including laws that implement multilateral environmental agreements, and commitments not to waive or derogate from the protections afforded in environmental laws for the purpose of encouraging trade or investment;
•New provisions that will address wildlife trafficking, illegal logging, and illegal fishing practices; and
•Establishment of a means for the public to raise concerns directly with TPP governments if they believe a TPP member is not meeting its environment commitments, and requirements that governments consider and respond to those concerns.
http://www.ustr.gov/tpp/Summary-of-US-objectives
This is of particular interest to me, since it is the topic that I know most about ... and, since it seems to explain the language of President Obama, that has everyone here outraged.
(Well ... I really don't know that much about the environmental stuff ... But, I know that these goals will make locating jobs to low regulation countries less economically attractive.)
bahrbearian
(13,466 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but, no, I have no more than those talking about the leaked drafts.
But then, again, I'm not one that has taken a "this is the worst deal ever" position. In fact, I haven't taken ANY position of the TPP, other than to say, "Let's wait and see."
Deny and Shred
(1,061 posts)Are you cool with the President inviting a dozen CEOs to the negotiating table?
The details are few on purpose. Are you cool with the lack of transparency? Are you cool with Congress's lack of input?
'Let's wait and see.' If its a bad agreement once passed, then what? Dems have sucked on that for decades.
Now is the time to question and quell, not once its fait accompli.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I'm cool with fast-track as it stops republicans from screwing with (amending) any agreement to change the U.S government's negotiating position.
Yes, I'm cool with that, too ... because it is the CEOs that have to make the trade agreement work.
True ... Yes ... Yes. During negotiations, all details are kept close to the vest, and lack transparency. Congress has never had input on trade or treaty agreements.
We will know all we need to know about the REAL trade terms when the ACTUAL terms it the Congressional committees. All interested parties will have their opportunity to voice their opinion and lobby Congress ... if the agreement is as bad as folks say it is, Congress can always vote it down.
Deny and Shred
(1,061 posts)fighting the good fight for the 99% vs the policies written by the CEOs? God bless.
We can revisit this once it comes up for a vote. I'm sure the righteous few in Congress will galvanize against it if its that bad. Just like they galvanized against the Patriot Act.
I can see the headlines : "President Obama and a majority in Congress (Republicans) are all for it. Only the Commies are against it. Flag, Truck, Eagle !!! Your no vote means you are a Communist. Why do you hate America?"
I've watched this movie far too long. I'm glad you are confident that these secret agreements are carefully guarding the interests of average working-class Democrats.
You never know, they could come up with progressive tax rates and quintupling the minimum wage as a result. We don't know yet, so anything is possible. Let's just 'wait and see.'
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)that's why I favor fast-track ... It gives Democrats in the legislature (and advocacy groups) 60 days to debate/expose what is actually in the agreement, and removes the republicans' ability do change it.
Hubert Flottz
(37,726 posts)How about the stupidity of buying this giant pig in a poke?
Logical
(22,457 posts)pnwmom
(110,255 posts)saying that he's a POS implies that he has accomplished NOTHING worthwhile as President. It's a generalized personal attack.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Unlike criticizers, who seem to believe criticism is right just because it's criticism.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)....since you have referenced it three times here
Bobbie Jo
(14,344 posts)These chest-thumping posts declaring the right to criticize are getting silly.
I remember when the standard was "constructive criticism." Nowadays, any manner of spittle flinging is acceptable.
sheshe2
(97,531 posts)The spittle seems to work here.
On an aside, I found this image and asked skinner if it could be an avatar.
Bobbie Jo
(14,344 posts)it would make an excellent addition, and I just borrowed it.
sheshe2
(97,531 posts) 
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)because that makes me an intellectually and morally unique resistance fighter, he sucks, that corporate fascist."
"Me too!" "Yeah, me too" "I hate him more than you."
Roy Rolling
(7,626 posts)Name-calling is not political discourse and beneath the standards of DU. And uncritical hero-worship is the same thing. I support the principles of DU, and those principles are forever. If a politician decides to abandon those principles, he/she is abandoning the very reason I support them.
Principles are forever, but humans sometimes change. That is at the core of the term "public servant". They serve us, not the other way around.
CaliforniaPeggy
(156,598 posts)I voted twice for him too, and I gave money and time.
Damn right I can criticize him when I think he's wrong, and it seems to me that he's wrong too often.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
CaliforniaPeggy
(156,598 posts) pnwmom
(110,255 posts)like someone did on another thread today, calling the President a P.O.S.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)CaliforniaPeggy
(156,598 posts)I'm not aggressive that way.
But everyone's different, and I understand why that poster said it. If you're referring to the poster I'm thinking of.
Strong feelings can engender strong language.
SunSeeker
(58,263 posts)It conveys no ideas, just hate.
It is fine to express hate against hateful politicos, but spewing hate against our Democratic President on Democratic Underground should not be tolerated and treated as "understandable." If I wanted to see my President called a P.O.S., I would read Yahoo comments.
I'm sad that you of all people would take this stance, CaliforniaPeggy.
CaliforniaPeggy
(156,598 posts)I'm sorry that you're sad.
SunSeeker
(58,263 posts)pnwmom
(110,255 posts)Wow.
That isn't a criticism of a policy or an action, that's a condemnation of a whole person.
People get angry and frustrated when they see stupid shit happening over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over over and over and over.
it does not equal hate.
I've had it from the completely clueless to intelligent members of DU directed at me and not once did I feel hate. Anger and frustration, but not hate.
An example: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026036134#post9
Phlem
(6,323 posts)I have PTSD from early childhood abuse from my stepfather, ongoing into my teens till I fought back. That was hate.
Some guy being frustrated by seeing how Obama manipulates the simple in his own party to satisfy the right, priceless.
pnwmom
(110,255 posts)The continuum of hate you have experienced makes you numb to lesser forms of hate.
I'd rather discover these things with an actual psychologist than an arm chair wannabe. My home was also full of blind unabated ignorance. I hear the same kind of ignorant crap here on DU.
Like: " I am for having barack obama negotiate tpp, rather than bush or romney."
Thing is life is what choices you make, those choices can last a lifetime.
So, being the person that ended my own persecution, I have the ability to look ahead and make better choices as i did early on.
It's called hyper vivgilance
http://ptsd.about.com/od/glossary/g/hypervigilance.htm with the difference being that I ended my attacker/monster. I can read people pretty easy and know who's yanking my chain.
I'm also way into science and live by the scientific method, so yeah, I process multitudes of options over and over (automatically) again till I start to see a common thread.
Then I take action.
Instead of blind cheer-leading.
My parents had very lazy minds and see that a lot here on subjects that affect huge amounts of people.
So I care. Sue me.
LeftOfWest
(482 posts)I would not have been that nice to that post, ugh...
I am so sorry that happened to you growing up. Take care, and again great classy response.
Phlem
(6,323 posts)Peace to you and your loved ones.
LeftOfWest
(482 posts)Peace to you and yours. Thank you.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Personally, I don't have enough hours of the day to have seen it, but you may have.
I think most of the criticism is what you see about policy, about holding his feet to the fire of civil rights a la Gitmo and NSA, and certainly about TPP as in the OP.
It's a forgone conclusion that CA Peg wouldn't call the prez a pos, nor would I.
It's a paranoid request, me thinks!
pnwmom
(110,255 posts)excused it.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Or is it not linked here? I keep seeing reference to it but I don't know what post is being referred to
pnwmom
(110,255 posts)“I stand with President Obama (Redux)”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026033274
See posts 3 and 13.
The writer of the original OP was objecting to nasty name-calling. WillyT's OP appears to be a response to that, but changes the subject from name-calling to criticism -- as if the original OP was objecting to criticism of Obama.
marym625
(17,997 posts) 
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)but I'm a "hater"....
I guess no matter what, you aren't really "allowed" to complain.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
pnwmom
(110,255 posts)If so, then I guess you are a hater, like the person who wrote the OP that's being responded to.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Guess the Bush "you're a traitor" tactics are now the Democratic tactics.
treestar
(82,383 posts)with some posters anyway.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)I DO NOT like his support for TPP...and the "Grand Bargain"...
I DO NOT want HIS LEGACY... to be to the detriment of the things we once stood for.
We should stand for them still.
We need to come together and decide what Democrats are all about.
roody
(10,849 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)Deny and Shred
(1,061 posts)This gets so boring.
Please tell us where he has let you down. Are you on board with 100% of the President's actions?
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)I also vote and plan to continue to vote in every election big or small and I do complain. When complaining about every issue, like storms hitting in certain towns and cities, it isn't Obama's "fault" when this happens. Even when the Twin Towers was hit we could not blame Bush. All needs to be accountable for their actions. Now we can forge ahead and allow accountability to fall where it may.
sheshe2
(97,531 posts)That saying something negative gets you more recs than talking about the positives.
http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5056192
WillyT
(72,631 posts)Is that where we are now?
Cause I'm not crazy, and being a U.S. Citizen... I get to point out ANYTHING I think is wrong with this country.
Regardless of party.
It's sort of my duty... as citizen.
sheshe2
(97,531 posts)You just did it again below when you mentioned Cuba and immigration. A plus followed by negatives. Nothing can stand alone for even 60 seconds without a negative.
Willy you said yourself you do it for the recs. I gave you the link. Those were your words and a subthread that follows. You never said you were doing it as your duty as a citizen.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)There... I Said It...
And I could NOT give one shit about the "Recs".
Believe me... I had far more posts disappear than Recced.
What was trying to say... was that "controversial" posts get more attention.
sheshe2
(97,531 posts)There was more than one there, do you want me to them all?
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)You're whining that someone you don't know is not sufficient in their praise of someone else you don't know. Sure it's praise but not ENOUGH praise or praise that meets YOUR praise standards 
Shit like that is why we think of some posters here as a fandom rather than as serious people talking about real things.
stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Who is the royal "WE" that you are referring to? And who is it you deem "FANDOM" rather than you "SERIOUS PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT REAL THINGS"? Are you referring to those that support the President, the BOG. FYI, all people that support the President don't post at the BOG. That is a broad brush.
So do you get to define what 'real things' are and what is not? It's only important to you and your "WE" what is important and what is to be discussed.
Question where to you stand on racism in America? Those have been hot topic here for weeks. They have been on the front page. There have been crickets crickets crickets here from a group here that usually is very vocal. Guess racism doesn't interest some.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)
Lol~
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Whatever.
Number23
(24,544 posts)with threads about this? And from alot of folks that were quiet as mice when there were lots of discussion about racism and police brutality? What exactly is all of this about?
I would have thought the big news would have been the sanctions laid on North Korea but I come to DU and the same loud bunch are SALIVATING over the TPP and boringly and ever so predictably using it as the latest megaphone to scream about how this president has betrayed them. Yet again. 
sheshe2
(97,531 posts)I was amazed and applauded all of DU for standing up and giving support to those that died and the movement #blacklivesmatter. They swung their support to PoC dieing every 28 minutes. There raw compassion does my heart wonders. Hope abounds DU stood up to say Black Lives Matter!
Oh wait, ssssssssh they were breathtakingly silent. They were not here. They never spoke . They never cared.
They were listening to.
Silent Night and thought all was calm.
The loudest posters were the ones that were absent from this discussion. Color me surprised, Number23
Commercial pause here.
Next up wack a Black President. It is so refreshing. News at 11~
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)Deader than a cockroach in a shoe factory!!
zappaman
(20,627 posts)
great white snark
(2,646 posts)Just like the TTP issue now, all they care of is the outrage and all the Presidential insults/slurs that arise from discussing said outrage umongst themselves.
Number23
(24,544 posts)behavior you described.
And it's even funnier that acting like this over and over and over and over again, that they are somehow STILL shocked and surprised that hardly anyone gives them the time of day.
Andy823
(11,555 posts)And you know what, it's usually the same crowd who rec every negative post about the president, or the democratic party as a whole!
The same group who seem to have a contest going to see who can get the most recs by being the most negative.
Warpy
(114,602 posts)especially when we look at the alternatives: McGrumpy and Mitt, a militarist and a corporate hack.
There are times I've wanted to shake him until his teeth rattled, but at no time would I have wanted either of the losers he defeated to replace him in office.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)not explain his stand on the TPP. He will not explain his stand on the Cheney torturers. He doesn't get a free pass.
Warpy
(114,602 posts)he's going along with some of the bullshit because he wants to see his girls grow up.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)As I don't think there's clear evidence for a threat one way or another, but if we are to accept that he or his family is being threatened, at what point does the president (or anyone in a position of power) have a responsibility to the country he was elected to serve? Hurting millions to protect a few is unnacceptable to me. Being president comes with risks, and no matter how hard the decision may be, you need to be able to fight for the good of the populace. People have laid down their lives for civil rights, for union rights, for many things. I would argue that holding the office of the presidency means that you need to be willing to do the same, because of the power that comes with the office. Though a vote one way may protect your family, it cannot come at the expense of thousands or millions of other families.
Of course, this entire discussion is pointless if the president is not actually being threatened, so make of that what you will.
LuvNewcastle
(17,812 posts)He's light years ahead of any of the other choices we had, but he really frustrates me sometimes. I've gone over the top with my criticisms of him before, and I was wrong for that. But I expected more from him than he's given on some issues, and as far as the TPP goes, he's dead wrong. I don't want the TPP to be part of the Democratic Party's legacy like NAFTA is. He's the one who told us to make him do the right thing, and I believe that now is the time to raise hell before this awful legislation is passed. I just hope it's not too late.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)It's amazing... in some ways... that we ever had a revolution.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)We see a lot of that here from normally able and thoughtful people.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
jwirr
(39,215 posts)but I reserve the right to tell him that I do not support everything he is doing. I do not want the TPP.
So here goes: I stand with President Obama but I do not give up my rights to anyone.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)they can't complain about the plantation. 
Demit
(11,238 posts)
Faryn Balyncd
(5,125 posts)and re-elect him.
We not only have a right to hold him accountable, but we would be derelict in our duty if we did not demand that he do the right thing.
Moreover, if his supporters did not hold him accountable, and were blind in his support, it would actually make his job more difficult (which is why he explicitly told us that our job was to hold his "feet to the fire".
Holding the president accountable to democratic principles is much more supportive, and much more value to the president, than blind support.
Thanks for your post.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)accountable for his actions. Those that follow blindly do themselves, the Party and the Nation a great disservice.
I don't support the TPP do you?
WillyT
(72,631 posts)
roody
(10,849 posts)PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)
pablo_marmol
(2,375 posts).......so no time for GOTV activity, but voted for the Pres twice, and donated the legal max to his first campaign. Plus a few hundred to the Party.
So yeah -- damn right I'll open my mouth when I see/hear stuff that hurts us.
Omaha Steve
(109,166 posts)I voted for him twice too.
K&R!
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)I voted for him twice. When he's wrong, he's very, very wrong.
on point
(2,506 posts)TPP
Torture prosecutions
Pipeline (get some backbone and just deny it already)
Bail out dollar wise and legal wise for the big banks
tax breaks for the wealthy
Chained CPI and other take always from people
and so on.
Martin Eden
(15,601 posts)Yep. 
marym625
(17,997 posts)I don't get it. And I am done trying. Especially when the answer is usually something that has nothing to do with the criticism.
K&R!
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)
lexington filly
(239 posts)If I find someone offending me in words or attitude, or just acting asinine, unlikely to contribute to my understanding or the discussion---I skip to the next post. Rather than try to monitor what others write, I focus on what I prefer to read. I never understand others getting in big back-and-forth arguments when each of us has the power to read or not read a post. Just like choosing the music which we want to hear.
I defend a person's right to criticize any president or public official's decisions and policy proposals. But if they name call, use too aggressively trashy language . . . Well, it's like our mothers or fathers taught us: It's not what you say; it's how you say it.
kentuck
(115,401 posts)come together and "hold his feet to the fire".
If DU should unite over an issue, this should be it. We should have the backbone to tell the President and the Democrats in Congress that we do not agree with this treaty and we will do everything within our power to punish those that approve it.
So who's holding up the show??
olddots
(10,237 posts)He has been a scapegoat in a sinking world .
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)KG
(28,795 posts) Vinca
(53,956 posts)The current POTUS has come closest in my lifetime. We are not lemmings and we don't march in lockstep like Republicans.
DesertDiamond
(1,616 posts)
classykaren
(769 posts)
ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)Nothing you said is either wrong and/or difficult to understand.
Ask yourself this though:
Is it easier to dislodge a complaint when merited than it is to dislodge praise when merited?
The focus on the negative is often the rule on DU rather than the exception. While I can only guess at the inspiration for your OP (don't bother explaining, that's actually beside the point), many on DU are either silent or negative on the President. To be fair, though, some people around here are fully aware that the negative is more likely to get recognition than the positive and for some, this motivation is decidedly calculated, not in a subversive way, but in a divisive way. It gives them a manner to separate themselves from those "other" liberals who they believe don't merit a seat in the conversation due to some internal litmus test they've administered.
I am no negativist, criticalist, firebrand liberal. I believe that an acknowledgement of the positive MUST be a part of any movement basing itself in the idea of change for the purpose of improvement. I do reject the idea that your job as a liberal is exclusively critical in nature. Some people think me not liberal enough, not critical enough, too forgiving, too patient, and as such, having no business in the same discussion as those who hold much more hardcore left views.
Again, I don't know what precisely is the motivation for this OP. It is similar to many I've read, and it seems a complaint, not about the President, but rather on DU in a very meta way. So why don't we just call it that instead? Why be oblique? Your issue isn't with Obama, it is about the reception that your views on Obama may receive and what appears to be your reaction to that.
Why not just tell your detractors to kiss your ass and be done with it? If someone told you you had no right to complain about TPP, then you're absolutely right to do so.
demwing
(16,916 posts)but so difficult for some to accept.
You're seeing this logically, but others have their hearts tied up in the game.
riverbendviewgal
(4,396 posts)I celebrated when he became president twixe. I am disappointed in his siding with the Banks and Wall Street and wanting TPP snd signing FATCA .
Skittles
(171,645 posts)everyone else it just plain common sense
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)I've spent his entire presidency defending him against rightwingnuts over what he got right (with qualifications, like a too small stimulus, etc) as well as criticizing all the things that should be to them and lefties alike.
What's been most amusing, is that the latter never stopped a single rightwingnut from charging me with being a BOG-worthy _______, and around here, the latter makes you a Romneyite/Paulbot/racist hater, etc, etc, etc according to some members of that group.
At first glance one might be a bit CONfused as to how two different groups could come to two diametrically opposed povs based on the same set of facts, but when one considers that they share the same motive, it all becomes clear and easily understandable -- they are both weaklings grasping at straws with which to put a man together with.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)...Complaints and all. Should I apologize for doing what Barack Obama said to do when he asked that his feet be held to the fire?
A Democracy if we can hold it? Yes, fore-fathers…. if we can hold it by it's very foundation, I will say it.
And, if anyone says it better, I'm gonna be sure to remember how to spell their name.
Tommymac
(7,334 posts)Better than GWB though - I disliked at least 8 Brazillion percent of his policies and actions.
Guess I am required to post a larger than life pix of him now, huh...
Hmmm, gotta work on that...
