A US State Dep't site search returns 790 texts and transcripts using "Trans-Pacific Partnership,"

[ucrdem]

the latest from Dec. 18 2014:



See for yourself: http://search.state.gov/search?oe=UTF-8&ie=utf8&output=xml_no_dtd&filter=0&getfields=%2A&lr=lang_en&client=emb_en_iipdigital&proxystylesheet=emb_en_iipdigital&site=emb_iip_en&q=Trans-Pacific+Partnership&ulang=en&ip=68.177.49.70&access=p&entqr=3&entqrm=0&entsp=a&wc=200&wc_mc=1&ud=1&sort=date%3AD%3AS%3Ad1#axzz3NiiqQ5DV

One of these is a detailed "USTR Fact Sheet on Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement Outline" that has been available online, in three languages, since Nov. 13, 2011:

http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttrans/2011/11/20111113202959su0.4597829.html#axzz3Nij1eFRg

Can someone please explain what it is we're not being told about TPP, and why Liz and Bernie appear to be unaware of the State Department's website?

[ucrdem]

1. "USTR Fact Sheet on Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement Outline"

posted Nov. 13, 2011:








link: http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttrans/2011/11/20111113202959su0.4597829.html#axzz3Nij1eFRg

[JDPriestly]

43. Worthless vagueries about the content of the agreement.

And here is another one of the links from the references above:


Texts & Transcripts

Translated:
English
Русский

U.S. Envoy on Turkmenistan’s Release of 8 Jehovah’s Witnesses
06 November 2014

U.S. Mission to the OSCE
As delivered by Ambassador Daniel B. Baer
to the Permanent Council, Vienna
November 6, 2014

Turkmenistan’s Release of Eight Jehovah’s Witnesses

The United States welcomes Turkmenistan’s release of eight Jehovah’s Witnesses in October, including those imprisoned as conscientious objectors to military service. We hope to see continued progress in Turkmenistan with regard to the exercise of the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, and the fulfillment of Turkmenistan’s OSCE human dimension commitments.

Read more: http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttrans/2014/11/20141106310664.html#ixzz3NkBCqv2s

The list referred to in the OP is absolutely worthless, devoid of any specific details about the agreement at least as far as the pages I reviewed.

Sorry, but the TPP is one big scam that is going to hurt Americans, and that list of references is useless.
It must be really bad if they are hiding its contents this carefully.

iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttrans/2014/11/20141113310832.html

[ucrdem]

46. That article has nothing to do with this thread

and no it isn't "one of the links from the references above," at least that I could determine.

[Trillo]

69. I'm reminded of the "sales job" of the Declaration of Independence, versus failures of the "Bill of

Rights" (example, failure to insure such basic things as the right of freedom of speech of employees, while DofI insists that's a fundamental function of the government.)

Here's but one small specific example, from your link, "The competition text will promote a competitive business environment, protect consumers, and ensure a level playing field for TPP companies"

First, competition never protects consumers, cooperation protects humans. To label humans "consumers" is both demeaning and insulting.

Tie in this sentence, " preserving the right of governments to regulate in the public interest". Wow, the U.S. government has proven so incompetent at doing so we have unprecedented levels of income inequality, and everything has been given to, or taken by (I'm not certain its a difference with distinction), the banksters, they are above the law, I think the phrase is "to big to jail", while black people get murdered on the street by the banksters' police, and this has been happening for years, and government comes up with the lame excuse they weren't collecting police-death statistics while the NSA is snooping on everything. Liars!

This document is doing little more than providing false hope.

[PoliticAverse]

2. So which one of the "790 texts" contains the current text of the actual agreement?

'fact sheet's aren't actually law.

[ucrdem]

3. There is no current text of the actual agreement. It's still being negotiated.

You didn't know that?

[PoliticAverse]

22. Hence the word 'current' implying it is a working draft that might change. n/t

[sabrina 1]

26. Oh, we knew that. And we also knew it is 'being negotiated' without the input of the US CONGRESS!

Now can you explain why the US Congress has repeatedly been denied access to these 'negotiations'? Since Congress represents the people of the US, it is more than troubling that they have been excluded from these 'negotiations' don't you think?

Who IS 'negotiating' a Trade Deal that the American people have been excluded from?

Can you give us some names of these 'negotiators'?

[Hekate]

57. Would this be the same US Congress that has REFUSED to work with Obama? But Benghazi hearings!!!

That US Congress?

[think]

77. No. This would be 151 House Dems that said they will not support fast tracking the TPP

http://delauro.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1455:delauro-miller-lead-151-house-dems-telling-president-they-will-not-support-outdated-fast-track-for-trans-pacific-partnership&Itemid=21

The majority of the congressional Republicans don't have any problem with it....

[Boreal]

30. AND

it's secret

[Recursion]

6. How can they post a text that isn't written yet?

It's being negotiated right now.

[PoliticAverse]

23. When people negotiate they do write things down so they know where

the negotiation stands.

[Recursion]

24. And, generally, in international treaties those notes are kept secret

For that matter, where does this idea that "corporations" (a fairly nebulous term) get to see "parts" of the under-negotiation treaty come from? And which "parts"?

[Boreal]

34. There's nothing "nebulous"

about the word corporation. It's a government chartered enterprise that can raise money from investors who are free from personal liability, for one. Started with the Dutch and the East India Company, I believe. The British liked the model and perpetuated it, along with the Dutch banking methods.

[JDPriestly]

44. Public Citizen, a very careful, trusted organization in the US for one.

The TPP would even elevate individual foreign firms to equal status with sovereign nations, empowering them to privately enforce new rights and privileges, provided by the pact, by dragging governments to foreign tribunals to challenge public interest policies that they claim frustrate their expectations. The tribunals would be authorized to order taxpayer compensation to the foreign corporations for the "expected future profits" they surmise would be inhibited by the challenged policies.

We only know about the TPP's threats thanks to leaks – the public is not allowed to see the draft TPP text. Even members of Congress, after being denied the text for years, are now only provided limited access. Meanwhile, more than 500 official corporate "trade advisors" have special access. The TPP has been under negotiation for six years, and the Obama administration wants to sign the deal this year. Opposition to the TPP is growing at home and in many of the other countries involved.

http://www.citizen.org/tpp

[ucrdem]

47. What does Public Citizen know that we don't know?

Apart from repeating disinfo from wikileaks, which in typical fashion presents its TPP "leaks" dishonestly?

[JDPriestly]

49. Public Citizen is a serious, trustworthy reswearch organization.

Wait and see, It's always good to be skeptical, but we shall see who is telling the truth.

I think Obama has his pride set on finishing some trade agreement. I oppose these trade agreements. The US negative balance of trade attests to the fact that previous trade agreements have seriously harmed the financial stability of the US. We cannot go on importing so much more than we export. It's irresponsible. It hurts wage-earners in the US. And the products we import are shoddy and getting shoddier.

"Free" trade has been a big loser for Americans.

I'm 71 and old enough to remember clearly what life was like before "free" trade. Believe me. It was a lot better.

[ucrdem]

52. But wikileaks isn't, and that appears to be the source of these characterizations.

I've seen the "leaked"docs that wikileaks is flogging and their demagoguery is frankly inane.

[Scootaloo]

59. Disinfo, you say? Do tell.

Quantify your statement, and do be more thorough than "I don't like it because a Democrat is president right now," please.

[ucrdem]

80. You can thank Darrell Issa for this awesome wikileak:

http://sojo.net/blogs/2012/06/29/insider-list

[Scootaloo]

82. Where's the disinfo, ucrdem?

And according to the article, Issa leaked a 2011 draft, which is something different.

You get one more try.

[misterhighwasted]

4. Realizing we've been betrayed & taken for fools

Like finally being told your spouse has been seeing someone else ..for the last 3 years.
In the end we are irrelevant, invisible, and TPTB have long ago abandoned the original promise of trust.

I can think of many ways to describe what I just read in your post. Absolute betrayal of trust is all it boils down to.

Were we all set up from the beginning? Campaigning, fund raising, voting.
Was this just another 'selection' by those powerful enough to anoint themselves 'selectors of the next US President'?
Was this TPP push-thru by President Obama the promise that gave him the 'win'?
Is that how it fuckin works in this country i no longer recognize!
2011?
We are the last ones to find out about this betrayal and we are told only now, we have nothing to say about the destruction to our lives nor the Nation we live in.
A coup. Agreed to and signed by our own president

[ucrdem]

5. Can you please explain what exactly you find objectionable about this outline?

For instance:

o Labor. TPP countries are discussing elements for a labor chapter that include commitments on labor rights protection and mechanisms to ensure cooperation, coordination, and dialogue on labor issues of mutual concern. They agree on the importance of coordination to address the challenges of the 21st-century workforce through bilateral and regional cooperation on workplace practices to enhance workers’ well-being and employability, and to promote human capital development and high-performance workplaces.

Read more: http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttrans/2011/11/20111113202959su0.4597829.html#ixzz3Nj0n0d1Y

[misterhighwasted]

7. We have no say in our future with TPP

American workers will no longer negotiate no oppose what the Corporates choose for us. All employees within the trade partnerships will be treated as equals. Only we will have no say in just what that 'equality' will represent.

[ucrdem]

13. Okay but negotiating treaties is what the Constitution says the executive branch

is supposed to do, with the approval of the Senate:

He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

Now the Constitution also gives Congress power "To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes," so there's some overlap, but in any case, this is what we elect our Senators, Representatives, and President to do.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

[Boreal]

37. Maybe you should look it up

There is a shitload of info out there. Like all of the other trade agreements, it usurps national sovereignty, national and local laws, and gives power to corporations. Sure, the constitution gives this power to negotiate and sign treaties but the point here is that the executive and senate are working on behalf of corporate interests, not those of the citizens they supposedly represent. Do you want that? Also, anything printed online or reveled to the public is going to be completely sugar coated. That's why there is so much secrecy because the people would be and are so opposed to global rule by multinational corporations and their bought and paid for prostitutes in government.

http://www.citizen.org/TPP


The Trans-Pacific Partnership is a disastrous trade agreement designed to protect the interests of the largest multi-national corporations at the expense of workers, consumers, the environment and the foundations of American democracy. It will also negatively impact some of the poorest people in the world.

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/12/29/bernie-sanders-trans-pacific-partnership-disaster-workers.html


AND, while everyone is talking about the TPP, there is the TTIP aka TAFTA!!!

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/articles/opinion/eu-us-free-trade-agreement-risks-undermining-democracy

http://www.citizen.org/tafta


There's no end to this shit. These are real conspiracies involving governments and corporations working together for global corporate rule (dictatorship).

[ucrdem]

38. Yes, I did. I also voted for Kerry and Obama.

I didn't vote for Libertarian astroturf from Texas, sorry. YMMV.

[Boreal]

40. Bush and Kerry

Skull and Bonesmen. Same fucking agenda, opposing parties. McInsane also supports these "free trade" agreements. The point is, it doesn't matter who you voted or vote for. This is the agenda and whoever is the CEO is going to carry it out. Anyone who opposes the mission of corporation USA isn't going to be in the WH.

[JDPriestly]

51. Tne Constitution does not contemplate the president's negotiating treaties that would deprive

Congress of the ability to exercise the enumerated powers that are specifically identified for example in Article I, section 8 of the Constitution.

A treaty of this breadth and magnitude, one that overrides our Constitution with regard to fr example the enumerated power authorizing CONGRESS to establish the limitations on the time for copyrights and patents is not what is contemplated as part of the president's authority to negotiate treaties in our Constitution.

This treaty and some that have preceded it are mechanisms through which the executive is usurping the responsibilities and authority of Congress and our courts and thus conducting a sort of peaceful coup. The TPP is contemplated to reduce the sovereignty of the American people. It is a very bad thing. Very bad.

[ucrdem]

54. But there isn't any treaty, so this fear-mongering is ridiculous.

It also makes the treacherous job of governing even more difficult if not impossible. I'd prefer to leave that kind of obstruction to the neocons and not take their place at the catapult.

[JDPriestly]

45. That outline is absolutely worthless. The devil is in the details.

The outline merely identifies in vague language the areas to be negotiated and covered by the agreement. It is meaningless.

The agreement is obviously being kept secret because it is not what the American people will be willing to support or agree to.

It's a foreign policy ploy to try to increase our ties to certain countries and to protect the interests of certain businesses. It is not the intention of the negotiators or the Obama administration to protect or create American jobs. The agreement is a double-cross of the most egregious, disgusting kind. If it weren't we would know more about what it will mean in our lives.

[ucrdem]

50. "The agreement’s broad framework is as follows"

It's an outline, and I strongly disagree that it's worthless. For one thing it sets out the agenda which is ambitious:

Scope

• The agreement is being negotiated as a single undertaking that covers all key trade and trade-related areas. In addition to updating traditional approaches to issues covered by previous free trade agreements (FTAs), the TPP includes new and emerging trade issues and cross-cutting issues.

• More than twenty negotiating groups have met over nine rounds to develop the legal texts of the agreement and the specific market access commitments the TPP countries will make to open their markets to each others’ goods, services, and government procurement.

Read more: http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttrans/2011/11/20111113202959su0.4597829.html#ixzz3NkQb6zSr

That was over three years ago, when there were only nine countries involved, and yes, those "emerging trade issues and cross-cutting issues" are specifically identified, for example:

o Sanitary and Phytosanitary Standards (SPS). To enhance animal and plant health and food safety and facilitate trade among the TPP countries, the nine countries have agreed to reinforce and build upon existing rights and obligations under the World Trade Organization Agreement on the Application of Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures. The SPS text will contain a series of new commitments on science, transparency, regionalization, cooperation, and equivalence. In addition, negotiators have agreed to consider a series of new bilateral and multilateral cooperative proposals, including import checks and verification.

Read more: http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttrans/2011/11/20111113202959su0.4597829.html#ixzz3NkRTRiJa

Dismissing a detailed seven-page outline as "meaningless" is, well, meaningless.

[JDPriestly]

53. Useless blabber. It is not concrete. You can assess nothing based on those generalities.

Whatever the Agreement says or will say, that description is like describing a cat as black and having four paws. Worthless. People who are not used to reading legal documents may be impressed, but the many people on DU who are accustomed to reading documents including legal documents will recognize those vague words as merely obfuscation intended to impress the ignorant.

That language is meaningless.

[ucrdem]

55. You can't get to the details without the outline. nt

[stillwaiting]

60. The outline is filled with corporate speak.

The kind of communication that is developed to make things sound fantastic (even when those that work within the corporation know it's bullshit; well, at least a majority of them do).

The reason WHY it's going to be filled with corporate speak is that the TPP is being drafted and created by corporate lobbyists (not "our" elected Congresscritters) who are experts at managing public relations, public reactions, and public expectations.

The truth always lies BEHIND the corporate speak and legalese, and the executive management of a corporation rarely lets the lowly rabble in on their true agenda.

And, yes, I do believe that the outlines posted are mostly meaningless corporate speak that is most probably meant to deflect from a hidden agenda and to persuade as many as possible to support this hidden agenda.

[Buns_of_Fire]

70. Slight correction: "You can't get to the details AT ALL..."

"The SPS text will contain a series of new commitments on science, transparency, regionalization, cooperation, and equivalence. In addition, negotiators have agreed to consider a series of new bilateral and multilateral cooperative proposals, including import checks and verification" is typical mushmouth corporate-speak, saying nothing in many words.

"Be it resolved and approved, all signatory nations hereby commit to cutting all public funding for science education by 23% and reallocating those funds to subsidize all currently chartered investment firms in proportion to their net worth as of the date of ratification in their respective countries" is concrete.

So is "Be it resolved and approved, all signatory nations hereby commit to increasing all public funding for preschool lunch programs by 11% no later than one year from the date of ratification."

No, I don't think either one will be in the final draft. But, on the other hand, they could be. And that's the crux of the matter -- we'll never know one way or the other until it's too late.

But if corporations are negotiating this, I guarantee that it'll be closer to the former than the latter.

[sendero]

62. What is hilarious..

... is finding ANYONE who, after NAFTA and the big stinking pile of lies surrounding that, would be naive enough to believe that a trade agreement of any kind is going to benefit average Americans.

Really, don't you get it? The secrecy is all anyone with two brain cells to rub together needs to know. Folks don't do things in secret when their intentions are honorable.

[sabrina 1]

27. Excellent post and excellent questions which need answers.

You aren't the only one who wonders about this:

Was this TPP push-thru by President Obama the promise that gave him the 'win'?
Is that how it fuckin works in this country i no longer recognize!

And not just about this President. What, eg, is being 'negotiated' regarding who the next President will be?

[Boreal]

39. I think Obama was selected

by TPTB because was a smooth and appealing personality who could sell anything. The whole McCain run was theater, imo. Jeb Bush is the next selection. Another smooth and pleasant personality. It will be exactly the same agenda. Remember this from when NAFTA was rammed through by Clinton?



These people are all on the same page and it's not ours.

[Sunlei]

8. Also info on the White House and Europa searchs. ' Liz and Bernie' and many others have

concerns about worker rights, and exactly what the Corporations will try to get away with in secret. Corps. do not have a good history of taking care of their workers or the environment. Liz and Bernie say, "Use search"


Europa search

http://europa.eu/geninfo/query/resultaction.jsp?SMODE=2&ResultCount=10&Collection=EuropaFull&Collection=EuropaSL&Collection=EuropaPR&ResultMaxDocs=200&qtype=simple&DefaultLG=en&ResultTemplate=%2Fresult_en.jsp&page=1&QueryText=Trans-Pacific+Partnership&y=10&x=17


White House search

http://search.whitehouse.gov/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&affiliate=wh&query=Trans-Pacific+Partnership&commit=Search

[Number23]

9. I asked this in another thread but has something actually HAPPENED with TPP in the last day or so?

Why is GD suddenly blanketed with threads about this and from the usual mules braying about how this is YET ANOTHEr or worse, the FINAL betrayal from this president -- AGAIN??!1

Has something actually happened or is this folks just trying to yank the conversation back into the swamp of endless misery that GD turned into a few years ago?

[ucrdem]

11. Well, the drone thing fizzled when Liz jumped on the ISIS bandwagon,

even though she jumped off again a few weeks later, Ebola never got out of the starting blocks, Keystone XL is also dead in the water, so I guess that leaves torture and TPP.

[Number23]

12. So I just want to make sure because I haven't seen anything about TPP in WEEKS

And now suddenly, it is the Scream of the Day in GD.

Seems almost a bit coordinated, doesn't it? Particularly as it's not as though anything has actually happened. And yet, a bazillion threads, including some exceptionally stupid polls, have conjured themselves out of the ether on this topic all on the same day. 'Tis a curious thing...

[ucrdem]

15. I think we're being prepared for another campaign performance.

Stay tuned.

[ucrdem]

18. Preview:

Senator Warren Takes On TPP

Thursday, December 18, 2014, Common Dreams

In letter to U.S. Trade Representative Froman, trio of senators warns how trade deal could make it harder to prevent another financial crisis

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2014/12/18/senator-warren-takes-tpp

Here's the Dec. 17 letter signed by Warren, Markey and Baldwin, which gives a deadline of Jan. 6 for a raft of TPP info which evidently couldn't be gotten by checking the webiste or picking up the phone and calling Warren's former fellow senator John Kerry who currently runs the State Dept:

http://www.warren.senate.gov/files/documents/TPP.pdf

[Number23]

84. Aw, aren't her fans here precious and predictable? Methinks you are definitely on to something...

[ucrdem]

86. Yep, it's going to be an astroturf field day

for DU's mavericks!

[MADem]

76. Good question....

Maybe no one is buying the &quot Fill in the Blank Name of Celebrity/Politician) Had a Great-great-great grampa who benefitted from slavery so should we stone them to death" spate of spurious posts, so now TPP is the new "Let's get excited for no good reason" topic.

The SENATE will have a crack at TPP. But hey--let's get mad at OBAMA instead....because, ya know...it's OBAMA!!!!!

Booo!!!!

OBAMA!!!!!!!!!

[tech3149]

10. Just curious, what is the point you're trying to make?

I don't have a life and even I wouldn't invest the time and effort to mull over every word published in your link. Why would I trust a State Dept. and USTR to be specific and honest in their representation when their professional history tends toward the interest of one side of the equation?
Even worse, your links seem to be all publicly available discussions about the agreement but not the actual agreement or the negotiations that brought it to this point.
Have you not seriously considered who are involved in these negotiations, who is not involved, who is pushing them forward, and who stands to profit the most?

I haven't seen a "trade agreement" in our history as a nation that hasn't been built and sold for the benefit of a few at the expense of everyone else involved and affected as good for everyone.

What we're not being told is what we most need to know. Absolute, complete, and public availability of every detail of the discussions and who is involved and why.
None of us on an individual basis have the knowledge of every aspect of the overly broad scope of the agreement to provide a valid interpretation of all the aspects and their effect on all the economies involved.
That is the primary reason I could not and will not support it.
Should I ask my self years from now " If only Nixon could go to China and only Clinton could destroy "welfare as we know it", why did I let Obama destroy national autonomy for the corporate interest?

[ucrdem]

14. Nov. 11, 2014: "Trans-Pacific Partnership Trade Ministers’ Report on Negotiations"

http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttrans/2014/11/20141110310755.html

27 October 2014: "Joint Statement on Trans-Pacific Partnership Meeting"

http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttrans/2014/10/20141030310384.html#axzz3Nj81ljLz

As I understand it the negotiations are conducted in monthly meetings in multiple languages by multiple committees in multiple locations so it looks like the results of each month's meetings are summarized into a joint statement which is then translated into the various languages of the participating parties and distributed. In other words there are a lot of moving parts but if you know what you're looking for you can probably find it.

[sabrina 1]

28. Who is involved in these 'negotiations'? We know that the Congressional Trade Committee has

been denied access to these negotiations, some of the participants being FOREIGN CORPORATIONS.

So you seem to be informed. Can you list those who DO have access to these 'negotiations'?

[ucrdem]

56. There are 12 countries involved, each with its own trade representative and team of negotiators.

The countries are (from wikipedia): Australia, Brunei Darussalam, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, the United States, and Vietnam.

USTR -- Michael Froman

USTR Froman (second from right) addresses a press conference at the U.S.-China Joint Commission on Commerce and Trade in Chicago on December 18, 2014.

Read more: http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/article/2015/01/20150102312668.html#ixzz3NkVtwNYd

[whereisjustice]

16. And not one of those contains the provisions being fast tracked to avoid public review

Because the US Govt. is working exclusively with corporations for that.

It is set for fast track approval which means there will be NO Congressional debate, NO public review, NO ability to modify or review, essentially giving the president and a corporate proxy government exclusive power to negotiate the provisions of the treaty.

Some of the most controversial provisions of the EXISTING document are found here:
http://www.citizen.org/leaked-trade-negotiation-documents-and-analysis

http://www.citizen.org/TPP

http://www.citizen.org/tpp-ip-wikileaks

You won't find any of this on US Govt. web sites. For good reason. The US Govt. doesn't want you to know or interfere with this policy because it is a VERY bad deal for US workers and very good deal for the rich.

[ucrdem]

19. Yes but do you want Mitch, Rand and Boehner making it better?

I don't.

[Tommymac]

21. Fear - the fallback position when ya got nothing else. eom

[sabrina 1]

31. What we want is TRANSPARENCY. We want our Reps in Congress to have access to these

'negotiations'. And we want a list of Corporations who are writing this legislation. Are they American Corps, Foreign Corps?

We have had access to some leaks, thanks to Wikileaks, and it doesn't look good for this country's Environmental and Free Speech laws.

Do YOU want Foreign Corps to have the power to circumvent our hard fought for Environmental Laws eg?

And if you think Foreign Corps will not have that kind of power, you haven't been following the battles of the Long Shoremen with Foreign Corps who have already been given power over our Labor Laws.

[Recursion]

25. Which "corporations"? and how is the gov't "working with" them?

Do you mean the USTR is being lobbied? Of course he is, but we already knew that. And American businesses have every right to lobby the USTR.

[freshwest]

17. LOL at the Top Secret files on the website...

Maybe it's not dumbed down enough for Foxheads to read it. Besides, this guy had a much bigger media persona:



The head of the criminal organization SPECTRE, Ernst Stavro Blofeld is perhaps the quintessential movie villain. In his first few appearances he was only seen from behind with his cat, which became an enduring image of the character. While he has been portrayed by a number of actors and as having different appearances, he is perhaps best remembered from his appearance in You Only Live Twice where he is portrayed as bald with a distinctive scar over his eye. This image has become the stereotypical image of the criminal mastermind, directly influencing characters from Austin Powers’ nemesis Dr. Evil to Doctor Claw, Inspector Gadget’s arch-enemy.

http://popwrapped.com/news/73191/bond-24-oscar-winner-returning-villain/

Insert EVIL OBAMA pic here ______.

[ucrdem]

20. LOL.

Welcome to NAFTA on steroids bwahahaha!

[Recursion]

29. Let's hope so. The post-NAFTA 90s was the best economy of my lifetime

until the Bush tax cuts killed the golden goose.

[sabrina 1]

32. Well we're all glad it worked for YOU. That, after all, is what matters. However it did NOT work

for millions of American workers, nor did it work for SA workers.

Are you seriously saying that NAFTA worked for the American Working Class?

Seriously?

[Recursion]

33. Of course I am. Median wages went up for the only time in 40 years

That's very much "working for the working class". Do you remember the 90s?

I know it's an article of faith at DU here, but the data don't actually bear it out. NAFTA passed, and working Americans' income rose for the first time since the Johnson administration.

[sabrina 1]

35. You have GOT to be kidding me!

I guess you don't know many people who lost jobs due to NAFTA.

Okay glad things went well for you.

Now we have to try to recover from the disastrous affects of NAFTA on all the other Americans who lost their jobs and/or were forced to take jobs way below their abilities and pay grade.

Enjoy your success, seriously. I know people who unfortunately did not share your good fortune, thanks to NAFTA.

[Recursion]

36. Sorry, you're just wrong. Median wages went up.

I guess you don't know many people who lost jobs due to NAFTA.

I do, and I also know how many jobs were created by it, and I'm willing to bet you don't know either of those.

At any rate, my point stands (and you didn't even bother to try to challenge it): median wages increased after NAFTA.

In terms of your argument, you have two options:

1. Show me that my data are wrong and that median wages didn't increase, or
2. Explain that rising wages for middle income Americans isn't what you mean by "working for the working class"

Or, I suppose

3. Repeat unsourced, poorly-thought-through articles of faith about trade

[sabrina 1]

41. There is just so much data out there proving the disastrous effects of NAFTA on wages, on jobs

on small businesses etc that it is difficult to choose what links to post.

Of course there were the beneficiaries, there always are when these 'deals' are made.

But for the working class here, and in Mexico, there is little doubt what a disaster NAFTA has been.

NAFTA at 20 One Million U.S. Jobs Lost, Higher Income Inequality

The study makes for a blood-boiling read. For instance, we track the specific promises made by U.S. corporations like GE, Chrysler and Caterpillar to create specific numbers of American jobs if NAFTA was approved, and reveal government data showing that instead, they fired U.S. workers and moved operations to Mexico.

The data also show how post-NAFTA trade and investment trends have contributed to middle-class pay cuts, which in turn contributed to growing income inequality; how since NAFTA, U.S. trade deficit growth with Mexico and Canada has been 45 percent higher than with countries not party to a U.S. Free Trade Agreement, and how U.S. manufacturing exports to Canada and Mexico have grown at less than half the pre-NAFTA rate.

NAFTA's actual outcomes prove how damaging this type of agreement is for most people, demonstrating why NAFTA should be renegotiated or terminated. The evidence makes clear that we cannot have any more such deals that include job-offshoring incentives, requirements we import food that doesn't meet our safety standards or new rights for firms to get taxpayer compensation before foreign tribunals for laws they don't like.

In the article the study shows just how devastating this 'deal' was for the workers of both this country AND Mexico. Can't post all of it here, but click on the link if you actually want the facts on this disastrous 'trade deal'.

Given NAFTA's devastating outcomes, few of the corporations or think tanks that sold it as a boon for all of us in the 1990s like to talk about it, but the reality is that their promises failed as millions of people were severely harmed.

Now the same interests that dished out lies to sell NAFTA are at it again to push the TPP, but the difference is that 20 years of the NAFTA experience has turned Americans against these sorts of deals.

Oh yes, we now have 20 years of experience with NAFTA so it is no wonder that selling the TPP has proven to be an impossible task.

OF course there are SOME beneficiaries, but none are among the Working Class.

[Recursion]

42. Median wages went up, unemployment went down.

I notice you didn't dispute either claim (since you can't). So, if lower unemployment and higher median wages aren't what you want, I'm left wondering what you actually do want? Why do you want American workers to have lower wages and fewer jobs? You want to go back to the pre-NAFTA days when unemployment was higher and wages were lower?

[zappaman]

85. You're gonna make someone's head hurt with those questions.

[ucrdem]

48. Brand new article, posted in the last hour:

"USTR Recaps 2014 Work to Advance Obama’s Trade Agenda"

02 January 2015

Read more: http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/article/2015/01/20150102312668.html#ixzz3NkK5hN8b

[JaneyVee]

65. Interesting.

Thanks for posting.

[ucrdem]

67. Isn't it!

[Hekate]

58. Thank you very much, ucrdem, this is solid information.

I hope you continue to post on this topic, with excerpts from actual documents. There's been a continual current of FUD regarding the TPP here at DU for I don't know how long. Post after post, and yours is the first I've encountered that has tried to explain and inform, rather than express fear and loathing and nothing else.

Bookmarking for follow-up. Good luck to you with this project, and don't expect much in the way of thanks from the masses.

[ucrdem]

66. thanks Hekate!

Seems there's two sides to every meme!

p.s.

[RiverLover]

61. PR pieces & "broad overviews" don't exactly spell out what's in the TPP.

Massive fail. But telling OP.

Where does it talk about investor-state settlement disputes? Or how many more jobs the US will lose to Vietnam. Or how local environmental laws will be trumped by foreign companies' right to profits?

Obama’s Pacific Deal Would Deepen Income Divide
http://dollarsandsense.org/archives/2014/0314bybee.html

[Proud Public Servant]

63. Sure, I can -- I work for State

I work for the State Department. Everything you just found is what State (or another government agency) has chosen to make available to the public. Sens. Warren, Sanders, Brown and others are not spun up about unavailable talking points (that's the Benghazi committee's job); they're spun up about the details of the agreement itself - which haven't been released to the appropriate Senate committees, even though some corporate leaders have seen apparently them. And I can tell you that I've had White House folks tell me frankly that, of course the details are being kept secret (details like how many US jobs are projected to be lost, and how much prescription drugs are now going to cost in member countries), because if they became fully known there would be a public shitstorm in pretty much every country signing on.

[RiverLover]

64. Thank you. PPS!!!

I wish this were the OP.

[ucrdem]

68. Yes I'm sure there is much eeeeevil afoot.

[Proud Public Servant]

72. Dude, it's not eeeeevil

But it does seem to be a corporate giveaway at the expense of ordinary people. Does that surprise you, given what the Democratic Party has become in the last 20-25 years? And does it surprise you that the WH wants to keep such a thing quiet -- and certainly wanted to in the run-up to the midterms?

Warren, Brown, et al. aren't fighting "evil"; their fighting for the soul a party that used to put people ahead of corporations, but hasn't done so for a long time now.

And, really, if ignorant hyperbole and a smiley are the best you can offer when someone who knows the State Department (and, in fact, has worked with USTR on aspects of TPP) shows up, should you really be starting threads?

[ucrdem]

74. No it isn't. Basically the IP chapter "leaked" in Nov. 2013 concerns bootlegging.

How that became a satanic threat to Liberty and Justice For All is a question Mr Assange and his cheer team will have to answer.

[ucrdem]

75. p.s.

[hedda_foil]

78. Thank you, PPS.

Would you consider posting the above as an OP?

[treestar]

71. It'll be interesting when it finally comes out

how Liz and Bernie will vote.

Sometimes I think as politicians they are not above stirring up support among those they know are relying on them as saviors.

[ucrdem]

73. I suspect they're counting on not having to cross that bridge.

Between the Koch Congress and the Libertarian noise machine there's not much space left for getting actual legislation passed. From what I can see the TPP is nothing close to the horror it's painted as and actually has labor and environmental protections which, like the Copenhagen climate accord of 2009, will probably go down in flames thanks to Assange and company.

[great white snark]

79. K&R & thank you ucrdem.

Very informative and very unlike the answers given by the TTP fearmongerers.

[ucrdem]

81. HNY!

p.s. leftover champagne donated by Cha

[ucrdem]

83. It seems the draft chapter flogged by Assange was first leaked by Darrell Issa:

last month House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa, R-Calif., leaked a draft {from 2011} of the "intellectual property" chapter of TPP, just because it's a "secretive agreement" that could “undermine individual privacy rights and stifle innovation."

source: http://sojo.net/blogs/2012/06/29/insider-list

Thanks, Jules!