History is Religion for the Masses

[NightOwwl]

Written by the winners for the winners.

The Government is the big entity in the sky. Politicians are the gods and goddesses.

Suggest there may be an alternative and the people freak out, just like the religious when their world is threatened.

You are under a spell that was started when you were REQUIRED to pledge allegiance - the beginnings of the conditioning that taught you a concept (flag, country, government) was more important than you - a real live person.

The American Dream. The Bible. Hi-STORY.

Think about it. If it freaks you out, if you feel threatened - ask yourself why.

[brooklynite]

1. Personally, my religion is reality...

We have a representative political system which gives people as much of a role as they're willing to accept. We have a capitalist economic system that nobody's proposed a practical alternative to.

What is it you think we SHOULD believe in?

[NightOwwl]

10. I think that's for everyone to figure out by themselves.

Create the world you want. Learn how to co-exist with those who haven't figured out they have that option yet.

That's what freedom is.

[brooklynite]

17. But since we don't live alone, we create a world together. That's why we have the political process

[NightOwwl]

22. We have a political process because it's been drummed into our heads

that we need a political process. The politicians, the bankers, the few who control the media love this political process. Hasn't been that great for everyone else though.

It is a hamster wheel of never-ending insanity that is broken beyond repair.

We have an ever-changing world held to standards that are based on a few wealthy men who died before we were born.

But it's a process by golly and I'm going to run on that hamster wheel until I die - even if I have to sacrifice who I am for it! Well, you don't have to.

We create a world together - I agree. The political process is a disease that is holding us back from creating the best possible world for everyone - not just a select few.

[brooklynite]

24. So, given that we're in the real world with other people...

...how do YOU propose we come to agreement on this new world you envision? Because all I'm hearing are broad platitudes.

[NightOwwl]

48. Welll, first you have to be willing to consider everything you think you know about yourself

is based on possibly false premises.

Real-life example: For many years, introverts were considered to be depressed and miserable because they didn't like to socialize. Now people are starting to realize introverts just prefer the company of themselves, and the reason they were depressed was because they were constantly being told there was something wrong with them, they needed to make friends, they needed to socialize. They were square pegs forced into round holes - so many turned to drugs and alcohol as that was the only way they could 'fit in'. In some cases even that isn't enough to dull the pain, hence the reason we see many young, talented, intelligent, beautiful people committing suicide.

Point is - they believed what they were told. They believed there was something wrong with them. And it was just bullshit. Totally false bullshit that had the power to make them miserable.

It ain't easy. You have to question everything you've been taught, everything you've been told. You need to believe in yourself, but before you can do that, you have to know yourself.

[brooklynite]

51. I'm not miserable at all. Why should I be?

I live in the real world. I engage in politics in the real world. I have no illusions about the political process, but neither to I subscribe to the "it's all hopeless" endorsements of disengagement.

Let me know if you come up with anything concrete. In the mean time, I'll just stick to doing what works.

[NightOwwl]

78. If you are happy and content - that's great.

Many people aren't and wonder why. They think their unhappiness is their fault, or they think they haven't lived up to some 'ideal.'

For those who are not happy and content, it might be helpful to question long-held beliefs. Could be that unhappiness is based on something completely untrue.

[Oilwellian]

69. Please realize...

you're debating with someone who brags about being rich. It's no wonder he/she is just fine with "what works."

[LanternWaste]

27. What is the precise and relevant objective evidence to support that allegation?

"The political process is a disease that is holding us back..."

What is the precise and relevant objective evidence to support that allegation?

[NightOwwl]

50. That is what I see when I look at the world.

I see a world where a few people who managed to get a hold of most of the resources have abused those resources in order to magnify their importance in the eyes of others. The political process is not about politics; it is about keeping wealth and keeping power - and the people, not just of America, but of the world, suffer for it.

But you have to examine your own life, your own assumptions, your own questions. It's not easy. Probably why most people are content just to accept what they are told and go from there.

[LanternWaste]

128. Hence, no objective evidence.

Hence, no objective evidence. Easiest way for you to arrive at your pre-determined conclusion, be content and docile, and accept what is most convenient for you to believe...

[thucythucy]

80. Tell me how someone who uses a power wheelchair

because they have multiple sclerosis, and relies on a government program (personal care assistance, managed by a publicly funded independent living center) fits into your "government is not the answer everyone 'create the world you want' paradigm.

You didn't answer my post in your other neo-libertarian OP. Check out that post if you haven't seen it yet.

Then get back to me with some answers that don't come from a position of relative privilege, as in "I'm not disabled so I don't give a fuck who runs government programs that people with disabilities rely on to live."

[NightOwwl]

85. There are programs that help people - I agree.

Those programs could exist independently of our current corrupt system.

There are millions of children who still go hungry even though we have enough resources on this planet to feed and shelter everyone. The elderly is shunted off to nursing homes. We put people in prison for selling weed yet millionaires extort your 401K money in broad daylight.

I believe EVERYONE has the right to a life without hunger, without pain, without fear of poverty. EVERYONE.

We settle for the scraps our masters throw us, and we are so grateful for those scraps we forget we are just as powerful, and just as capable as they are. They are doing a lousy job - but guess what - the system was created to keep them in power...as long as we are satisfied to feed off their scraps.

The myth: We need the government to protect us. We need the government to take care of us.

The reality: They need us to continue to believe they will protect and take care of us - so they can keep their cushy jobs, many of which are unnecessary, wasteful and only exist as a means to line their bank accounts.

Gotta be willing to question yourself, your beliefs, your view of the world - basically everything you think you know. That's the first step. It's hard and sometimes painful, but also very rewarding.

Most people settle for the alternative - and here we are.

[thucythucy]

89. Nobody I know in the disability rights movement is "grateful for those scraps."

And to say "our masters threw them" at us is the most ridiculous, ignorant, insulting shit I've read in a very long time.

You know NOTHING about the disability rights movement, am I right? Nothing about ADAPT demonstrators being dragged out of their wheelchairs and beaten as they protested discrimination. Nothing about the National Federation of the Blind picketing sheltered workshops to protest the slave labor conditions there. Nothing about the National Association of the Deaf protesting police brutality against Deaf kids.

And nothing, absolutely nothing, about the hard, tough, amazing struggle people with disabilities had to wage to get where we are today. Nothing about people who suffered and sacrificed and fought and bled for these programs you so blithely dismiss. Because, by your own admission, you know nothing about history.

Read some books on disability history. Read Kim Neilsen's "Disability History of the United States." Read Fred Pelka, "What We Have Done: An Oral History of the Disability Rights Movement." Read "The Madness Network News Reader" or Judi Chamberlin's "On Our Own" about the history of the psychiatric survivor movement. Get a copy of "Lives Worth Living" a film by Eric Neudel on the movement. Watch as people literally fucking crawled up the Capitol steps to protest the lack of accessibility.

And yes, people such as myself do need government to protect us, if nothing else to protect us from ignorant fucks who would just as soon see us dead as provided with the essentials we need to live.

How about you question yourself. Why this need to lecture others about topics which you know little or nothing? And where on earth did you get this half-baked notion that ANYBODY handed disabled people ANYTHING by way of civil or human rights?

The myth: people with disabilities aren't able to engage in meaningful political activism.

The reality: Bullshit. But you'd need to know some history (gasp!) to understand that.

The myth: private charities and good people will take care of anything people with disabilities need, without needing nasty old government to interfere.

The reality: when was the last time you volunteered to change an adult diaper?

"Most people settle for the alternative."

What an amazingly condescending and self-congratulatory thing to say!

Educate yourself. You'll be a better person for it.

[NightOwwl]

93. You know nothing about me and I know nothing about you.

But I believe we are both good people who want everyone to have a good life. We disagree on how to make that happen, but I'm not your enemy.

A government can be efficient and effective - but what I see is not a government. It is a playground for the wealthy. At the local level I believe there are people who actually want to do good for others. It's as you get to state and above that the corruption begins.

I am sorry you were offended by my use of the word 'scraps'. I meant that when there are so many available resources in this world, what is given to those in need is a tiny percentage while the rest of it goes to those who already have so much - and I find that disgusting.

If it makes you feel better, I was in a horrendous automobile accident when I was 20 years old. I've had to deal with the fallout - physical and monetary - my entire life.

[thucythucy]

114. If, as you say, you know nothing about me

or really, any of the other people on this board, how do you presume to lecture us on the futility of our social justice work and our "addiction" to government?

And yes, much of what goes into government--our government anyway--is directed in ways I'd prefer it not be directed. But the solution to that problem isn't to shrug our shoulders and walk away from the struggle, all the while pretending we're somehow above it all because we aren't personally ground down by some aspect of the inequality. We're all disgusted by what goes on in the world--I doubt anybody on this board is particularly happy with how the last fifty years have played out in American history. The solution isn't to pretend the struggle is somehow beneath us. It's to re-engage to the best of our ability.

And that means knowing history--not dismissing it as nonsense. BTW, given the amazing levels of historical illiteracy in the general public, I simply can't agree that history is "religion for the masses." If "the masses" knew more history, it wouldn't have been so easy for Bush/Cheney & Co. to drag us into that atrocity of a war in Iraq. And if more Americans had known the history of Vietnam in 1960, we wouldn't have gone on that fool's errand trying to "save" Vietnam from itself. What we need is more history, more historical knowledge and understanding, not less. Even your framing of the argument is borrowed from history. It was Marx who said "religion is the opiate of the masses." Whether or not you meant to echo that phrase, echo it is what you did.

The whole world is "a playground for the wealthy." Not just government--the media, the churches, the universities, the beaches, the mountains, the frickin' ground you walk on and the air you breathe are "playgrounds for the wealthy." Do you advocate we get out of, give up on, all those as well? The wealthy control the majority of the wealth of this planet--that's what makes them wealthy! You act as though this was some amazing epiphany you're bringing to the rest of us--that the world is corrupt! Governments are corrupt! OMG who woulda thunk it?????

And I'm truly sorry about your accident. It doesn't sound as though it impacted you in the same way as, say, some of my quadriplegic friends have been impacted by their accidents. I know people who need assistance eating, moving, dressing. I've known a number of people who need ventilators to breathe. Who use puff and sip controls to manage their power wheelchairs. Shit like that is expensive. An average power wheelchair can cost anywhere from $15 to 30 to even 45 K. Most of us can't afford something like that, unless, again, we're very wealthy. Ideally, that's what governments are for. To give the rest of us a chance to survive if we need that extra bit of assistance. To dismiss that need as some sort of stultifying addiction is really quite insulting. I don't think you necessarily mean it to come off that way, but that's how it reads--to me, and evidently to others on this thread.

In one of your posts here you said something like "you need to listen less, and think more." I think you need to open your ears and eyes and mind to the experiences of people outside your own comfort zone, and truly understand some of the history of social justice movements, before you dismiss it all as a useless diversion.

I'll leave you with just a little more history for you to think about the next time you feel a need to declaim on how politics don't matter because it's all so corrupt.

I mentioned earlier that I was old enough to remember the impact Reagan had, not just nationally, but on pretty much every street corner in every city in this country. When JFK was elected, he helped foster the beginning of the deinstitutionalization movement. Did you know that, up until the 1950s, MILLIONS of disabled adults and kids were locked up in massive institutions, sometimes for their entire lives, just because they were disabled? That disabled kids were routinely used as guinea pigs in medical experiments? That the vasectomy, for instance, was perfected by operating on boys with disabilities--kids who were thrown away by society because they were different? This started to change in the '50s and '60s, and part of that was because JFK's sister had been locked away, and so he knew personally what it was like--wealthy as he was--to see a sibling experimented upon and locked away. So under JFK the institutions began to empty, and in their place were put community centers, group homes for people labeled mentally retarded, community mental health centers for people labeled mentally ill. JFK started this, LBJ expanded it greatly. Nixon tried to gut it but Watergate stopped him. Carter continued the programs.

Then Reagan came in. Reagan didn't try to cut federal funding for these programs. He ENDED THEM entirely. The result: tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of mentally ill people living on the street, or put into jails. That's the difference a good president, or a half way decent president can make, as opposed to a fucking travesty like Ronald Reagan. The man who started "the war on drugs." The man who refused to take AIDS seriously, because it was a "homosexual disease,"

Voting matters. Politics matter. Governments matter.

A great disability rights activist--may he rest in peace--Justin Dart used to tell us, "Get into politics as if your life depended on it. Because it does."

To urge people to opt out of voting--to cite your earlier OP--is thus something I think is very counterproductive.

So that's the end of my lectures for tonight.

Best wishes to you and yours, and have a safe and happy New Year.

[NightOwwl]

119. Thank you. I appreciate your response, and hope you will take the time to read my reply.

In one of your posts here you said something like "you need to listen less, and think more." I think you need to open your ears and eyes and mind to the experiences of people outside your own comfort zone, and truly understand some of the history of social justice movements, before you dismiss it all as a useless diversion.

Point taken. I realize I can sometimes come across as one of those annoying, pushy ex-smokers who yak endlessly about the dangers of smoking.

When JFK was elected, he helped foster the beginning of the deinstitutionalization movement.

JFK was a good man. So was his brother. So was Martin Luther King. They tried to fight the system from within. They were stopped.

The whole world is "a playground for the wealthy." Not just government--the media, the churches, the universities, the beaches, the mountains, the frickin' ground you walk on and the air you breathe are "playgrounds for the wealthy." Do you advocate we get out of, give up on, all those as well?

No, I'm suggesting that maybe that anger and resentment you feel could be due to a well-structured media campaign designed to make you believe you are powerless against them. I could be absolutely wrong, also.

You ask where the money would come from if no government. There are people trying to figure that out as we speak (link below). Am I talking about an overnight change? Far from it - it probably won't even happen in my lifetime. I am just, in my clumsy way, trying to suggest they are not the only game in town.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Regardless of our life circumstances, I think we are more powerful, more capable, have more integrity, and are more intelligent than the shysters who pretend to run this country. They may own most of the resources, but they don't own your mind.

I was a passionate, liberal democrat for 30 years. I was proud to say I was a liberal, I was proud to go to the voting booth every election, I was proud of my candidate. I donated money to the Democratic Party, Presidential Candidates, and my State Senators on a regular basis. I was their perfect unpaid mouthpiece. I needed desperately to talk to my State Senator. Long story short - when the going gets tough, you'll get left behind. The disillusionment that had begun to blossom grew stronger. After I almost died due to various issues I won't go into, I left my job and started dabbling in trading. Let's just say that what I learned was quite a shock to my system. The Wall Street / politician connection was enough to turn my stomach and to turn me off politics completely.

I think much of who we are is learned, and the strong stuff we are made of gets buried underneath. Still there, but silenced. Waiting for you to find you.

https://www.thevenusproject.com/en/

I wish you only the best, always.

[el_bryanto]

2. The tagline at the end is great

"If you feel threatened or disagree with my assertion than ask yourself why - because clearly the problem isn't that I've made a somewhat silly comparison - no I'm pretty sure the problem is on your end."

I don't consider myself under a spell, but I'm also religious so presumably from your standpoint - that's two strikes?

Bryant

[NightOwwl]

18. You added words to my statement to fit your comfort zone -

then responded to your version as if that was my intended meaning.

I said "If you feel threatened or disagree with my assertion than ask yourself why."

You seem to think I said "If you feel threatened or disagree with my assertion than ask yourself why - because clearly the problem isn't that I've made a somewhat silly comparison - no I'm pretty sure the problem is on your end."

So now, any attempt to discuss this subject is based on a false premise that you created in your head. And that's what people do all the time - it's become such a habit no one is even aware they do it.

How can we solve the world's problems when assumptions are based on what we think we know, when what we think we know may be absolutely untrue?

[el_bryanto]

21. I'm pretty comfortable just concluding you have either mistaken this for freshmen philosophy

Or you are just messing around.

Your assertions that there is no meaning to history are insulting - your assertions that there is no meaning to politics are dangerous.

Bryant

[NightOwwl]

42. Dangerous? How so?

History (which is subjective - not factual) is used by those in power to control and subvert - that it is still accepted as truth is the danger.

I'm not saying what hasn't been said before by people with much better credentials than me.

People who said the earth was round were considered crazy, too.

I'm pretty comfortable just concluding you have either mistaken this for freshmen philosophy

Then you know me better than I know me. There is nothing left to say.

[el_bryanto]

44. Because you encourage apathy

Your goal is for people to be apathetic and to stop paying attention to politics.

That is the danger.

Bryant

[liberal_at_heart]

45. Not questioning can be just as dangerous.

[el_bryanto]

46. There's a difference between questioning and tearing the whole structure. nt

[liberal_at_heart]

49. That's how change takes place. Change takes tearing down structures.

It takes challenging authority. I love my 20 year old's outlook at life. She is young and hasn't been told how she must see the world so when she sees something wrong she points it out and even I have had to take a good long hard look at long held beliefs that I have held for my whole life. Should we as adults for example be telling our young women what they can and cannot wear because of what "society" demands of them? She says no and I have to agree with her. It is time to turn the world on its head and challenge long held beliefs.

[el_bryanto]

52. I agree with you that your daughter should challenge structures

This is, however a political board - to come here and tell us that politics is useless is problematic at best. The end result isn't challenging anything - it's apathy.

Bryant

[liberal_at_heart]

56. I guess we just see it differently. We cannot end apathy until we recognize the problem.

There is a reason why so many people in this country don't vote. Instead of blaming the voters we must recognize the system is the problem and address the real problems. Only then will more people vote.

[NightOwwl]

55. Bryant your goal is, Bryant you think this, Bryant you want that.

I don't presume to know you, why do you presume to know me?

Where is the danger besides in your head? Maybe you can think on that for a bit.

[el_bryanto]

60. I suppose because I naively assumed your words gave an indication into your thought

I see that was a mistaken impression.

Bryant

[NightOwwl]

64. I say what I mean. Rather than assume, ask if you need clarification.

[Posteritatis]

58. Hey now, freshman philosophy tends to work to higher standards. (nt)

[Journeyman]

3. Truly, you need to read more . . .

[NightOwwl]

9. Truly, you need to question more.

Truly, you need to think more and listen less.

Before you were taught what to believe, what did you believe?

[LTX]

140. "Think more and listen less." Because you can never get enough of your own navel.

"Before you were taught what to believe, what did you believe?"

I'll add that, it doesn't matter what temperature the room is, it's always room temperature. On the other hand, you have five fingers.

[LanternWaste]

4. Is perceiving an unsupported premise as valid as a bumper sticker the same as "feeling threatened"?

Is perceiving an unsupported premise as valid as a bumper sticker the same as "feeling threatened"? If so... I'm very, very threatened.

FWIW: Paul Kennedy, Rise and Fall of the Great Powers. Ludwig Mises, Theory and History. If those are a bit too erudite for your grammar skills, Wordy Shipmates by Sarah Vowell may help you achieve the same.

[NightOwwl]

8. Big words don't impress. Intelligence does.

WORLD --> politics, government --> shrinks your world

If everything you experience is through what you've been told, then that's all you know.

Enjoy.

[LanternWaste]

12. What big words are you referring to? History? Premise?

What big words are you referring to? History? Premise?

As you're unaware of what you're talking about and are compelled to tell others what and why they believe, why get defensive about criticism?

Enjoy, yourself...

[Posteritatis]

57. Big? Is?

Kinda frightening seeing someone mount a full-throated defense of ignorance itself built upon even more comprehensive ignorance like that, especially around here. OP was even worse than the usual "history's nothing but names and dates" cliches, ugh.

[NightOwwl]

59. I am not telling others what and why to believe.

I am suggesting exactly the opposite.

And I apologize for being snippy.

[NuclearDem]

5. dafuq

[Rowdyboy]

6. "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it"

George Santayana-20th century philosopher, novelist and atheist.

[NightOwwl]

7. I don't need to remember the past to know what evil is.

I don't need a book to tell me what evil is.

And remembering the past hasn't done any good as far as I can tell.

Whose the best god? I've got the best god! No I've got the best god and I'll kill you to prove it!

Whose the best color? I'm the best color! No I'm the best color and I'll kill you to prove it!

Sex is evil! No sex is good! Sex is evil and I'll enslave you to prove it!

Money is power! Power is money!

Oh yeah - remembering history has done wonders.

[LanternWaste]

14. yours is the most adamant rationalization I've read at maintaining sub-literacy.

"And remembering the past hasn't done any good as far as I can tell..."

No doubt, we're placing the emphasis on the second half of that statement, as you've (again) offered no supporting evidence to validate your premise, merely more bumper-stickers. And bumper-stickers aren't too good themselves, at discerning good and evil...

However, yours is the most adamant rationalization I've read at maintaining sub-literacy.

[NightOwwl]

33. 'as you've (again) offered no supporting evidence to validate your premise'

Supporting evidence. This is insanity:

Whose the best god? I've got the best god! No I've got the best god and I'll kill you to prove it!

Whose the best color? I'm the best color! No I'm the best color and I'll kill you to prove it!

Sex is evil! No sex is good! Sex is evil and I'll enslave you to prove it!

Money is power! Power is money!

Thinkers have always gotten a bad rap - comes with the territory. Music and math - how are they related, how did language develop, where did we come from, why are we here, what is our purpose?

Oh never mind, I have to go to my 9-5 to work for my 401k in hopes I don't die before I retire. By the way, do you know why those investments of yours are penalized for early withdrawal? Not to protect you, but so the funds will be available for the wall street insiders to make billions off of buying cheap and selling high.

Sub-literacy. lol. Do a little reading about politicians and Wall Street - that might jar your world a bit. Or not.

[el_bryanto]

15. OK - i've worked it - you are a performance artist right?

This is some sort of absurdest message board performance art piece?

If you are taking title suggestions, you might call it "The Meaninglessness of Meaning."

Bryant

[LanternWaste]

16. "I don't drink with you", part 2-- bigger, faster, dumber.

"I don't drink with you", part 2-- bigger, faster, dumber.

[NightOwwl]

34. You are the only one who can give your life meaning.

[el_bryanto]

35. Well put - so I'll go on giving my life meaning by supporting politicians who I think

will make things better and arguing against and opposing politicians who I think will make things worse.

I'll also give my life meaning by recognizing that I am one part of a much larger thing bound together by a shared history.

Bryant

[NightOwwl]

82. I have one request -

please don't send money to politicians or political parties. Use it for yourself, your family, people you care about.

In the meantime, remember, we are all bound together the minute we are born. It's what happens after that divides us.

[Dont call me Shirley]

29. Everything you are up to the present is a compilation of your past.

The past creates your present, the present creates your future.

[JI7]

32. this is the type of thing I always hear from right wingers

When they claim there is no global warming and other things.


"I dont need a book or any fancy expert. I can feel its cold so there is no warming"

[NightOwwl]

37. And the right thinks all left-wingers are lilly-livered socialists.

It's propaganda. Each side gets news specifically selected to promote their particular fears, anxiety and distrust.

Do your own research, question everything, think for yourself.

[LanternWaste]

40. Rational thought is taught-- not hatched from the imagination

Rational thought is taught-- not hatched from the imagination. Or is rational thought simply another bit of this "propaganda" you consistently label (yet never support with evidence).

[NightOwwl]

65. When you are required to say a pledge to your country on a daily basis...

when your history books are written to support the subjective view that your country is superior to all else - that's propaganda.

The news you watch every day is propaganda. The right gets one version, the left another. Divide and conquer, anyone? I'm pretty sure history taught you about Divide and Conquer...so why is it so difficult to see what is right in front of your eyes?

[LanternWaste]

129. More allegations with a dramatic lack of objective sources.

Again, rational thought is taught-- address that, or (as you are in the habit of doing) don't-- which is also, obviously difficult for you to see though directly in front of your eyes..

[Bluenorthwest]

132. I'd just like to say that I was never required to say the pledge and each of my classes from K-6

the years that we pledged, had students who objected and did not participate. Some for religious reasons, others political. That's how it was. No such requirement existed, ever. First Amendment makes such a requirement illegal. We also had a kid who said the pledge but not the 'under God' part.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. "History supplies little more than a list of people who have helped themselves

"History supplies little more than a list of people who have helped themselves to the property of others." - Voltaire

I got my degree in history, still read a lot of it. But, I remember one of the profs who asked for history majors to raise they're hands. "Welcome to the cynic production class", said he. And, he was right.

But, you're confusing history with dogma.

[NightOwwl]

26. Thank you for that clarification :)

But since history is not objective, and since we can never be sure of the truth since were not there to experience it, and since most people do accept a subjective version of history as truth - is there really any difference anymore?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. Are you saying we shouldn't deal with the root causes of what's happening?

How can one possibly understand what's happening in the present without seeing what brought it about? Sure, most history is subjective. Should we accept "In Fourteen Hundred and Ninety-Two, Columbus sailed the Ocean Blue"? And, accept, as given, that everything that followed to the present day, just dropped out of the sky? Can you understand racism in America without knowledge of slavery? Vietnam without knowledge of the cold-war?

Amnesia is not a blessing or a producer of wisdom or understanding.

[NightOwwl]

38. No, that is not what I am saying.

In fact, the problem is that we aren't dealing at all with root causes. We fix the symptoms, but the disease still exists.

I'm saying that we know who we are and our place in the world through what we have been taught and told - and we learned that from people who know only what they have been taught and told - and they learned that from people who know only what they have been taught and told - and so on and so on.

And we never question any of it.

I'm suggesting you (and others) go beyond what you've been told, so you can figure out who YOU are without all that extra 'stuff'. Then we can deal with the root causes of our problems from a deeper level of understanding, instead of reacting based on currently held beliefs that may or not be true, and in fact, may be very destructive.

I'm talking major paradigm shift.

[liberal_at_heart]

39. "And we never question any of it." That right there is the problem.

[Ron Green]

19. Remember to not confuse history with

nostalgia.

[NightOwwl]

25. History is Nostalgia. Both have already happened, both only exist in our minds.

[Rex]

20. Yes 'history and religion' as in totally ignoring the meaning and doing whatever the fuck

ya want to do anyway...then ya. In that regard they parallel each other closely. History tries to teach us how not to fuck up again and religion tells us how we should live yet seldom do.

Both are trying to teach a message and both fail because humans don't ever like being told no.

[NightOwwl]

23. The message is always there, and it's quite simple.

It's the noise and distraction that's keeping it from being heard.

[Rex]

28. But it is not noise and distraction anymore, now it is part of our culture. We are all branded.

Trillions goes into making sure of that. Evidently people would rather shop than vote, but that's what happens when you never return from Halcyon days.

It is the only explanation for con men like Glen Beck and Alex Jones. They are now the maestros of babble and millions eat their shit daily. Or they buy the Queen Palin channel so they can be closer to their Creator's favorite daughter. Learn all about Twink and Tread.

Money won. That was established back in the 80s. What u gonna do about it now?

[NightOwwl]

70. Really? You look in the mirror and see a brand?

I'm not trying to be snotty - I'm trying to make a point.

When your focus is directed towards one thing, one point of view, one way of seeing life - that becomes your world. It seems like a very real world, until you realize most of it is in your head.

The few with the most resources (money) use the media well to magnify their importance in your eyes. They would have you believe there is terror around every corner. And no wonder you think that - the 'news' is selected for precisely that reason.

But look away from the pendulum for awhile and you'll discover there is a lot more to the world than partisanship, hate and fear. Turn off that damn media manipulation for a start. As your focus moves to other things, their importance shrinks to nothing.

This is not apathy. This is taking control.

[Rex]

74. So you will now take control and fix things starting tomorrow?

Please let me know starting tomorrow what you've done to take back control from the propaganda masters.

FYI haven't had a TV in over 5 years. You?

[NightOwwl]

86. This isn't some overnight fix. This is a complete shift.

As for TV - I have one, I just don't watch the news. I don't read any of the 'news' on the internet either.

[liberal_at_heart]

30. I remember learning about The fight for Texas Independence when I was in middle school.

When I grew up and learned more about the world I figured out it was not Texas fighting for its independence. It was Mexico fighting an invading army. Mexico was the one fighting for its independence, and lost. We took their land. Same goes for Native Americans. They were always portrayed as the barbarians who attacked innocent settlers. Yes they were no angels, but we never really learned in school the atrocities the settlers brought on the Native Americans. The Trail of Tears is glossed over and romanticized, and I don't remember learning anything about the Japanese internment camps while I was in school. Here's a question. Will our children learn about the war crimes that we committed during the Iraq War in their text books at school or will it be left out as well? How will the OWS be portrayed in the history books? Will they be credited with bringing income inequality into the national conversation or will they just be portrayed as aimless hippies? Will the textbooks talk about how our government squashed the OWS? Will they talk about how our constitutional right to assemble was squashed and peaceful protesters were jailed for no reason? It is hard to learn from our mistakes when our mistakes are hidden from us. America isn't very good at looking itself in the mirror and admitting its mistakes. We are the good guys. We are the bearer of freedom. We don't make mistakes.

[FSogol]

36. LOL: Step away from the bong....

[Bucky]

41. I think I'm more offended by the banality of your critique.

I prefer threads that encourage discussion rather than your hollow sloganeering and sweeping, unsubstantiated generalizations. The least you could do is get the cliches right, however. SHM

[NightOwwl]

68. Wow. OK then.

[tritsofme]

43. This is all you need to know about history:

[seveneyes]

47. It's cold inside the worm

...nothing ever bothers me now.

[Posteritatis]

53. I've seen inane, deeply ignorant dismissals of entire disciplines before..

.. But that's certainly one of the more impressive ones.

[NightOwwl]

67. I believe that's the same thing people said when they were told the earth was round.

[Posteritatis]

71. Well, there's another way to highlight how little you know about the topic, I suppose. (nt)

[NightOwwl]

72. You like George Carlin?

'The American Dream - you have to be asleep to believe it.'

[liberal_at_heart]

97. The owners don't want well informed people capable of critical thinking. Damn George

was so far ahead of his time. Funny how many people on here are defending the history books as written by our owners. How dare we question anything? We are just suppose to shut up and believe whatever our owners tell us. To hell with that. I will question authority and I will question history as written by rich, corporate publishing companies.

[NightOwwl]

100. Belief Disconfirmation Paradigm

'Occurs when an individual is presented with information which conflicts with their beliefs. If the individual is unable to change their beliefs the conflict experienced could result in a rejection or denial of the conflicting information. A person unable to resolve the conflict will seek others sharing a similar belief to restore agreement of thoughts.'

'Funny how many people on here are defending the history books as written by our owners.' Pretty ironic, isn't it. But the brainwashing runs deep.

Thanks for seeing through the fog with me.

[liberal_at_heart]

103. What's maddening to me is that the reason so many are satisfied is because we currently

have a Democratic President. If we had a Republican President right now they would be on fire. Democratic President, Republican President. Does not matter. Wages have been declining for over 30 years and cost of living has been increasing for over 30 years. Spending on education and social programs such as food stamps, WIC, SS, and SSDI have been declining for over 30 years. This has to be addressed.

[NightOwwl]

107. Yep - If people looked at the policies that are implemented and the actions taken they might wake up

But the sensationalistic 'news' is designed to keep their attention on fear! terror! endoftheworld!

So far it's working, but...

Legalization of pot, a pope that values people over religious affiliation, or sexual orientation...the times they are a'changin.

[liberal_at_heart]

110. People can feel when things are wrong especially when they can't put food on the table for

their kids. We are waking up. It is slow, but it is happening.

[thucythucy]

117. Who the fuck is "defending the history books written by our owners"?

I suppose when straw is all you've got as an argument, the temptation to build a straw man is just too tough to resist.

Look at the history books I recommend the OPer read. See any "history books as written by our owners"?

How about Howard Zinn? How about Noam Chomsky? James McPherson? David Blight? Claudia Koonz? Are they all shilling for our owners?

The OP is recommending we abandon the study of all history entirely. Read his comments. He "doesn't need to remember the past to recognize evil." If only we all were so enlightened! Books! We don't need no stinkin' books!

He doesn't know a thing about the history, for instance, of the disability rights movement (with which I'm involved) and yet he makes statements about how we disabled folk "gratefully accepted" "the scraps" we were handed by our masters. That's HIS version of history, not mine.

Shit--nobody handed us nothing. People struggled and bled and worked HARD for the gains we've made for people with disabilities these past fifty years. Some of us--and here I'm going to shock you--even VOTED in some elections. Jesus God, some of us even worked on political campaigns! Heaven forfend!

The OP is arguing for ignorance and political disengagement. And responds to most criticism of his "critique" with shop worn buzz words and self-realization nonsense. This could almost be parody (or discussion board performance art, as El Bryanto suggested)--but what's the point?

Historical ignorance and political apathy--what a great formula for progressive success! And here I thought liberals were supposed to be the smart ones.

[NuclearDem]

131. Way to piss all over the social sciences professions.

[liberal_at_heart]

136. It is true that the ruling class gets to write current history. It has happened since the

beginning of history. I'm not pissing on the social sciences at all. It is our job to question whether what the ruling class says happened really happened and question if they left anything out because often times they do leave things out. They leave out what really happens to the workers, the poor, the oppressed, and the minority. We have to demand our voices be heard in history because the ruling class would rather our voice not be heard.

[NuclearDem]

138. Yeah, you are.

Historians, sociologists, anthropologists, and archaeologists can't just write off versions of history just because of the names attached to them, which is what you're suggesting with the blanket "corporate" version of history. They have to weigh the evidence and make judgments based on the merit of the argument, not on who published the argument.

If you question Jared Diamond, you have to question Howard Zinn. If you question Paul Johnson, you have to question Noam Chomsky. Leftist historians have agendas as well.

[NuclearDem]

92. ...this is a joke, right?

This is just a performance art piece called "every dumb fucking science denial meme ever", right?

Please tell me you're not actually serious.

[NightOwwl]

96. I'm dead serious.

And a few of the greatest philosopher's agree. Not that I care about that, but it seems to make a difference to some.

George Carlin also agrees, if you would care to watch the video I posted in a previous post.

[LanternWaste]

130. I think your posts are opiates for you yourself.

I think your posts are opiates for you yourself. Search your true self. Seek the inner meaning. You know it to be true. George Santayana agrees with me, Insert vapid and irrelevant bumper sticker here.

[Bluenorthwest]

134. George Carlin, being dead, is a historical figure, and as such is subjective and not factual.

It is amazing how often you offer up the past in your quest to prove that knowing the past is futile. Your own selection of arguments contradicts your premise.

[Posteritatis]

115. I'd say it's a joke, just not necessarily on purpose.. (nt)

[Bluenorthwest]

133. And the 'I hate history' poster cites history to attempt a point. And that ends all deba

You, as the proponent of not knowing history, invoke history you learned when discussing the present. That sort of proves that without the context of our past it is not possible to speak of the present.
"The past is the present, isn't it? It's the future too."- Eugene O'Neill

[Alittleliberal]

112. It certainly takes talent

It certainly takes talent to be so wrong.

[brooklynite]

54. Have you noticed that nobody seems to agree with what you're saying?

Sometimes, when everybody says it's you.....it's you.

[Quantess]

62. I often don't agree with what you say,

I just don't bother to tell you that I disagree.

[NightOwwl]

63. Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect - Mark Twain

'Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.' - Aldous Huxley

'Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.' - Augustine of Hippo

'One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.' - Carl Sagan

'The soul becomes dyed with the colour of its thoughts.' - Marcus Aurelius,

I'm secure in the knowledge of who I am. I am secure in my beliefs. I don't live in fear. I am kind. I do unto others. I'm in good company, even though there are very few of us. But more are always welcome to join.

[Bluenorthwest]

135. And there you go, citing more history, going back to the Romans, as part of your 'history is without

value' thread. Sagan's quote is even about a valuable lesson taken from history. Which you say has no valuable lessons, and to prove that you quote a man from the past saying history teaches us valuable lessons.
It's an amazingly contradictory line of arguments.

[Alittleliberal]

113. Pot meet kettle nt

[brooklynite]

116. I freely admit that many people don't agree with me on a number of issues...

If I post an OP I generally state my position and leave it at that. But 43 comments out of 109?

[Quantess]

61. I get it.

You brought up some valid points. I think some people here at DU, as well as people in general, are too fixed in their ideas based on what they were told as kids.

[NightOwwl]

66. Thank you.

[wyldwolf]

73. Anyone who thinks "History is Religion for the Masses..."

... is looking for a excuse to revise it.

[NightOwwl]

75. Please don't confuse your assumptions with my reality.

[wyldwolf]

76. Yours is the mirror of the Karl Marx quote

You're equating religion with history. Pretty silly. But whatever.

[Posteritatis]

77. Hey now, they could simply be rationalizing their complete ignorance of it instead.

Or as well, for that matter.

[wyldwolf]

79. Very true

[NightOwwl]

81. One is ignorant when they accept everything they've ever been told as truth.

'they could simply be rationalizing their complete ignorance of it instead.' that is exactly what people say when they defend the bible as truth.

Questioning what you've told does not signify ignorance, it signifies curiosity about yourself and the world you live in.

[Posteritatis]

84. "Nuh-uh! I don't need to think! I just know!" is the opposite of questioning things. (nt)

[NightOwwl]

90. Who are you talking about?

I spent years questioning what I thought I knew about myself, my beliefs, the world around me.

When the world I thought I knew ceased to exist, when the person I thought myself to be ceased to exist - I literally went through the 5 stages of loss. Actually still going through them. I am angry there is so much suffering and pain in this world. I am angry because we have put our faith and trust in the very people who cause so much of this suffering and pain.

Why would you assume to know my thoughts when it seems you can't even bring yourself to question yours?

[liberal_at_heart]

98. So we shouldn't correct it when they get facts wrong about Native American history, or

black history, or women's suffrage history, or Japanese internment history, or war crimes committed during the Iraq War?

[NightOwwl]

104. We can remember the past without letting it bog us down in the present.

If we are using the past to remind us how racist and sexist and evil and terrible we all are - that sounds very much like another book that is used to control the masses.

As for correcting the past? History is changed when it is convenient to do so. Proof history is not objective and based on fact, it is subjective - based on hearsay.

[liberal_at_heart]

105. You know what is sad. My 16 year old autistic son is just getting to an age where he can

really comprehend what he reads. He likes to read about history and Greek mythology as well as about monsters and future seeers such as Nostradamus. And for school current events he reads CNN website. Every time I catch him reading anything I have to remind him to take everything he reads with a grain of salt and with skepticism because he he is susceptible to believing in things like Big Foot and other things like that. There really is no reliable information anymore. Journalism used to be considered unbiased. So did occupations such as being a judge. People don't even try to be objective and unbiased anymore. There really is nothing you can read these days that you can truly trust. But then again when you look back at history I guess it has always been that way. That is probably your point huh?

[NightOwwl]

121. check your inbox :)

[thucythucy]

83. Bullshit.

History is how we learn how we got to where we are. It provides clues on how to proceed with any sort of progressive agenda. If you don't know your history, you're lost. And only the relatively privileged have the luxury of being lost without being stomped on.

Your other OP said we should simply not vote--"What if they gave an election and nobody came." That there's no difference between Democrats operating the levers of government, or Republicans. I call bullshit on that as well. Here's a part of my reply to that specious nonsense, which you didn't bother addressing before posting this latest.

"I'm assuming you're relatively healthy, have no substantial disability, and aren't dependent for your very existence on government run programs such as SSI, SSDI, Medicaid, Medicare, what have you. That you aren't in poverty or have children in poverty or know anyone in poverty who's on food stamps, or any other form of public assistance, which can be cut off at any moment at the whim of some elected official. That you aren't one of the people various GOP governors want forced to take mandatory drug tests to qualify for benefits. That you aren't a woman or girl who needs contraception or other health services in a state where most if not all Planned Parenthood and similar women's health centers are being shut down. That you aren't a LGBT person seeking to marry, or wanting to live out of the closet without having to fear having your face kicked in by homophobes. That you aren't dependent on mass transit to get to and from your job. I could go on....

Most if not all Democrats I know, elected or otherwise, support the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Many Republicans don't. Most Democrats I know support the Americans with Disabilities Act, which, while not perfect, is a hell of a lot better than what existed before. Most Republicans don't. When Democrats run my state house, funding for rape crisis centers (another service you evidently don't think you'll ever need) goes up or at least isn't cut, when Republicans run the state one of the first things they go after are services for rape survivors.

Really, you have to live a pretty comfortable and privileged life to not understand there's a huge difference between what happens when Democrats control the various levers of government, and when Republicans do. I'm old enough to remember when Reagan came into office, and arbitrarily started cutting people on the disability rolls. People DIED because of that.

As for providing a "solution to an existing problem" without "that shadowy government looking over your shoulder...." how do you suggest my quadriplegic friends get dressed in the morning, without government funded personal care assistance? You think church groups and/or volunteers are going to do it? When was the last time YOU volunteered to change an adult diaper?

Try living with MS, or without the benefit of a spinal cord for a couple of years, and then get back to me on how easy it is to provide solutions to your problems without the benefit of any pesky government program.

I have so little patience for the "I don't need government, so who cares who runs it?" argument. Especially on what is supposed to be a Democratic discussion board.

Edited to add: here's an example of a GOP governor trying to screw over people in poverty: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026043956.

This is just one of hundreds of cases of Republicans fucking poor people over for the fuck of it."

Advocating that people simply drop out of the political process isn't some form of enlightenment. It's surrender, pure and simple. And there are a whole lot of people--maybe not in your world, but certainly in mine--for whom such a surrender would mean further impoverishment, homelessness, even death.

[NightOwwl]

87. Maybe you didn't see my reply to you above.

The programs that help people could exist independently of our current corrupt system.

There are millions of children who still go hungry even though we have enough resources on this planet to feed and shelter everyone. The elderly is shunted off to nursing homes. We put people in prison for selling weed yet millionaires extort your 401K money in broad daylight.

I believe EVERYONE has the right to a life without hunger, without pain, without fear of poverty. EVERYONE.

We settle for the scraps our masters throw us, and we are so grateful for those scraps we forget we are just as powerful, and just as capable as they are. They are doing a lousy job - but guess what - the system was created to keep them in power...as long as we are satisfied to feed off their scraps.

The myth: We need the government to protect us. We need the government to take care of us.

The reality: They need us to continue to believe they will protect and take care of us - so they can keep their cushy jobs, many of which are unnecessary, wasteful and only exist as a means to line their bank accounts.

Gotta be willing to question yourself, your beliefs, your view of the world - basically everything you think you know. That's the first step. It's hard and sometimes painful, but also very rewarding.

Most people settle for the alternative - and here we are.

[thucythucy]

91. I saw it

and was not impressed.

See my response to your response, post 89.

[NightOwwl]

94. Please see #93

[brooklynite]

95. And THERE it is...I knew there was a political link to the psycho-babble.

The anarchy dream. Every one will simply agree to lead a completely cooperative lifestyle. Everyone will agree to follow the same rules (that no Government will need to develop because everyone will know them). And everyone will agree to a dispute resolution process requiring no Government imposition. Never mind that it's never been successful outside a 1960s commune; all you have to do is dream!

The PROBLEM with dreams is that eventually you wake up...

[NightOwwl]

99. The only limitations are the ones you create in your mind.

When you believe those limitations, that becomes your reality.

When everyone is fed the same story - the one that says we have limits, that there will be anarchy without the protection of the government, that we can't succeed without some form of authority (whether you want to call it God or the President) - when everyone believes that story - well then, that's the world we get.

[brooklynite]

111. Fair enough...show me a nation state anywhere at any time in history which has figured this out

[NightOwwl]

120. First, we need to believe it is a possibility.

When enough people believe it is more than a possibility, change will happen.

Will this succeed?

https://www.thevenusproject.com/

Maybe, maybe not. But it's a beginning.

[brooklynite]

122. Well, if there's a WEBSITE, anything's possible...

[NightOwwl]

126. I took the time to answer your questions. Thoughtfully.

I shared a website that was directly related to the question you asked, which most likely you didn't even look at.

Thank you for being so open-minded, progressive and welcoming of new ideas....

Thank you for reminding me that when it comes to assholes, there is no difference between a Democratic asshole and a Republican asshole.

I voted Democratic for 30 years. Faithfully. Guess that doesn't mean squat around these parts.

I'm through here - Democratic Underground is just Free Republic held up to a mirror. Two sides of the same coin. Hateful, willfully ignorant, unwilling to even THINK about ideas that might threaten their narrow little world.

Your masters have trained you well.

[brooklynite]

127. That was going to be my next question...

Why on earth would you want to hang around at DEMOCRATIC Underground, where you're expected to support voting for Democratic nominees?

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."-- Winston Churchill

[LTX]

141. "The only limitations are the ones you create in your own mind." But,

no matter how hard you try, you'll never touch your right elbow with your right hand.

[thucythucy]

106. It really wasn't all that successful

in most 1960s communes either, although I imagine a few have survived.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

123. If so few people are capable of governing themselves how fewer still should govern others?

[brooklynite]

124. I think they call it "representative democracy"

or...Government.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

125. Do you honestly think we have that? Or do we have

corrupt pols and their patrons passing laws so complicated only they can afford to obey them but even when they don't obey they are never held to account?

[liberal_at_heart]

102. The Democrats have already gone along with cuts to food stamps, WIC, and pensions.

They've also gone along with the privatization of education. They talk a good game, but when it comes down to it they go along with whatever the Republicans want. Next comes SS and SSDI which my family depends on. I predict the Democrats will fight for SS but not for SSDI. Just not enough people on SSDI for them to care about. And eventually they will cave on SS too. The system is broken. I don't advocate for not voting but I can certainly understand why many don't. Me, I've voted straight Democrat for 19 years and am tired of it. I am tired of Trickle Down Economic Democrats. Democrats who will give more tax payer guarantee to Jaime Dimon and cut pensions. No more. I will not do it. I will vote for left of center progressive Democrats. When there is no left of center progressive Democrats to vote for I will vote for a third party and when there no third party candidates to vote for I will leave it blank.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

88. Better a government in the sky to judge us after death than

a government here to put us to death.

[LWolf]

101. I think I understand

what point you are trying to make: the masses are controlled by propaganda. I THINK that's it.

I have to point out, though, that I don't consider government, nationalism, The American Dream, religion, propaganda, or The Bible (for the most part) history.

All those things can be found within history, of course, but they aren't history itself.

All history is incomplete, and all history is told with bias. That's why the study of history is never done. Telling history with bias is a propaganda technique. It doesn't make it a done deal.

[liberal_at_heart]

108. Very good points LWolf. History is incomplete, imperfect and is told with bias.

And we should always seek to correct it when lies or mistakes are uncovered. The study of history is never done and is not a done deal. Very well said.

[NightOwwl]

109. Thanks LWolf - that's pretty much it.

'Telling history with bias is a propaganda technique. It doesn't make it a done deal.'

Amen.

[thucythucy]

118. Uh, that's not at all what your OP said,

and there's little if anything in your various posts that suggest this.

But if that's what you're saying now, or rather, what you're repeating now as the summation of your views, then fine.

[BillZBubb]

137. Strongly disagree. Perverted history may be a religion.

When big name politicians spout stuff like "Paul Revere did his ride to warn the British not to take our guns", that isn't history. That is right wing perversion of history to fit their mythology.

There is nothing religious about believing Paul Revere and others worked to alert colonists outside of Boston that the British troops were moving inland. It happened.

And no intelligent person claims the Bible is history.

History can be abused and perverted. It often is in the education systems, particularly at the lower grade levels. Indoctrination does occur. Later in life, anyone willing can get to what is most likely the truth with some effort. Most never make the effort, so they believe the mythology.

[a la izquierda]

139. Fail of a post.

From a history professor.

[LTX]

142. I did it! Just as you suggested, I wiped my brain free of all history. I'm free!

By the way, can someone tell what those lights at the intersection are for?