BREAKING. AT LEAST 10 DEATH IN PARIS SHOOTING.

[mylye2222]

http://mobile.reuters.com/do/urlRedirect?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2farticle%2f2015%2f01%2f07%2ffrance-shooting-idUSL6N0UM1PS20150107

The attack took place at around 11am local hour. It happend at Charlie Hebdo headquarters , a satiric newspaper. François Hollande is going at the site. The terror alert has been raised to réd level minutes ago for all paris arza. The perpetrators had escaped.

[JustAnotherGen]

1. For those not in the know

This is the magazine that was bombed about 4 years ago for putting a pic of Prophet Muhammad (sp?) on the cover as a cartoon.

[Yo_Mama]

43. Yes, and apparently the same motivation this time, with 12 now reported dead.

Also reports that words about avenging the prophet were heard.

At least one cop killed.

[Orsino]

158. In the same building?

Waiting for the wingnuts to blame the dead for going to work dressed like that.

[MADem]

2. The magazine is like a sophisticated CRACKED or MAD Magazine, with a socio-political bent.

The Europeans are not as squeamish as we are when it comes to profiling, or denying people entry to their country based solely upon ethnicity. Stand by for some more Muslim push-back.

[cwydro]

19. Murdering people in cold blood

is "push-back?"

You think this is ok???

[MADem]

26. You need to stop looking for a "gotcha" moment and actually READ what people write.

That way, people will not have a poor opinion of you.

The "push back" --since you can't read-- is not the murders. Those are reprehensible, as everyone with any sense knows.

The "push back" comes from the POLICE and IMMIGRATION authorities, who will make life SUCK for innocent Muslims who are either living in or transiting the country--they will be harassed, fucked with, bullied, brutalized, and otherwise messed with, as a consequence of these idiots--with whom they do not agree--perpetrating this crime.

Now--is that clear enough for you, or do you need me to explain it further?

I am being short with you because I am sick and tired of people lashing out without either reading or asking first--that kind of "So You think..." crap is NOT OK with me and I think it makes DU stink.

[cwydro]

29. You wrote -

Stand by for more "Muslim push-back."

If you cannot see the ambiguity of that statement, well I cannot help you.

Perhaps clarify your thoughts a bit more.

I could not care less what people think of me.

I don't particularly care what "crap is ok" with you either.

Your post was poorly written if that is indeed what you meant.

I do love those who include insults in their responses to those who DARE ask them a question.

You have a nice day now.

[MADem]

45. Try reading the sentence BEFORE that one, why don't you? There's no "ambiguity' if you READ.

But no--you were way too eager to strike out. Shoot first, aim second is no way to go through life.

And even if you were not able to understand, after carefully reading that big long sentence that you skipped over to get to the push back one, perhaps the gracious thing to do is A-S-K, not ACCUSE.

It's good that you "could not care less what people think" of you.

That way, you have no worries.

My post was not poorly written--your reading comprehension was lacking, and your approach to discussion was worse, still. And when it comes to "insults" let he who is without sin, and all that--your first reaction was to attack, and that makes DU suck.

Heckuva job~! You have a "satisfied" day, yourself...

[cwydro]

57. You're obviously an angry person.

I can't imagine being that angry first thing in the morning.

Your post was poorly written. I did not attack you. You did attack me.

At any rate, it's time for my morning run. You should try exercise.

It's wonderfully calming.

Bye now. I do hope you feel better.

[MADem]

72. Ha, ha--yet another insult/accusation/attack! Is that the only way you can converse?

I guess the "So you must be..." "You're obviously" and "So then" phrases are hot-keyed into your repertoire!

I think you need to look in your mirror--the one lashing out here isn't me, it's you.

I'm just pointing out your conduct, and you don't care for the fact that I am NOTICING the way you behave.

I feel just fine--but you have some thinking to do--maybe you should reflect upon how you approach people during that morning run, why don't you? Maybe you'll have a moment of insight....

[cwydro]

113. Ok dear MAD

Look back.

I simply asked one question, and you responded with insults.

The proof is in the pudding.

I wish you well.

Loling at this whole exchange this morning.

[MADem]

133. No, I think YOU need to do the looking back--you didn't "simply ask a question" -- you accused and

insulted.

And I noticed.

It's nothing to "LOL" about--it reflects poorly on you.

[Agschmid]

86. So passive aggressive is your thing?

Hope that run helps.

[pnwmom]

157. The sentence before doesn't make the phrase "Muslim push-back" any clearer,

since the OP was about an act of violence probably committed by Muslim fundamentalists. If you rewrote your post to say, "push-back against Muslims," it would be clearer.

Your post was ambiguous, because more than one person misunderstood your meaning, and in the same way.

[MADem]

175. Gee, you think asking rather than accusing would be a better way to go, rather than suggesting that

a poster was equating push back against Muslims to endorsing murder BY extremist terrorists?

Ya think?

[cwydro]

178. Thank you.

That's what I thought too.

[Warpy]

230. Uh, yes there was, I read it the same way

and I'm no dummy.

I suggest you pull in the claws, restate the position, and start over.

[MADem]

234. Sorry you had such difficulty. It isn't complicated.

There can only be push BACK if there's first a push.

The push was this attack. The push BACK will be the reaction by authorities against the larger (and innocent of any wrongdoing) Muslim community.

If you too, thought I felt that wholesale murder was "OK" then I guess we don't have much to say to one another.

[tkmorris]

107. If you found it ambiguous you could have requested clarification

I know you will say that's what you did but it isn't. You jumped to nasty accusations in question format. I hope you get some perspective on that during your run.

[cwydro]

115. No, I did not find it ambiguous

until MAD replied.

Then I pointed out that it was.

No sorry, I didn't think about DU on my run.

Thank you for the thoughts though.

[pnwmom]

159. I misunderstood MADem in the same way, and I didn't find it ambiguous.

That's the problem with misunderstanding -- you don't realize there's another meaning till you do.

I think the sentence would have been clearer if s/he had said, "push-back against the Muslims" or "discrimination against the Muslims" or a similar phrase. "Muslim push-back" could imply that Muslims were doing the pushing back, regardless of the sentence preceding -- since the OP was about an act of terrorism that may be attributed to Muslim fundamentalists.

[treestar]

130. The first sentence made it clear nt

[pnwmom]

155. Not to me. To me, the "Muslim push-back" referred to the act of terrorism

likely committed by some group of fundamentalists.

The posts should be rewritten or other people will also read it that way.

It would have been much more clear to say, "The push-back against Muslims."

[MADem]

188. That makes no sense if read in the context of the preceding sentence. nt

[pnwmom]

191. The preceding sentence must be read in the context of the OP it responded to.

And so the complete context made your push-back phrase ambiguous -- to at least three readers who commented about it.

[MADem]

202. The poster wasted no time accusing me of thinking murder was "OK."

That is not what I said--not even close--but it didn't stop him from slinging this distasteful comment:

Murdering people in cold blood

is "push-back?"

You think this is ok???

It is quite clear that I was talking about the crack down by governmental authorities by my preceding sentence. In any event, the polite thing to do is ASK, not play the "Ewwww, you think this is OK?" game.

Instead of discussing this tragedy, we're nitpicking. Victory for the disruptors, I guess.

[pnwmom]

204. Unfortunately, there are people on this board who could have made your comment

and meant it in the way the other poster heard it.

I knew you wouldn't have meant it that way, so I kept reading till I found your explanation. But it wouldn't have necessarily been obvious to someone who didn't know you.

[MADem]

207. I will reiterate that one only pushes BACK when one is first PUSHED.

The terrorists PUSHED with the murder of a dozen people.

The push BACK will come from the authorities, and they will direct their ire at everyone who is Muslim, not just the people who did this crime.

[Hutzpa]

193. Not quite

or denying people entry to their country based solely upon ethnicity. Stand by for some more Muslim push-back.

IMO those are keywords in clearing up any misunderstanding and should have it clear just as it did to me what MADem was implying, I did not read it as Muslim will start terrorizing the world again.

[pnwmom]

198. That's only if you think the "Muslim push-back" was a reference to the sentence immediately

preceding, rather than to the OP, as I and others did.

[MADem]

205. Well, of course it was--it was all in the same paragraph.

If I wanted to talk about the French reaction, and then a separate terrorists' response, I would have started a new paragraph.

And more to the point--there's already been more than enough "pushing" with a dozen people being slaughtered in cold blood. "Push BACK" is usually a reaction to a PUSH in the first place. If anyone is pushing BACK, it is the French authorities pushing BACK against this atrocity.

[treestar]

129. +1 It is getting egregious.

Say you don't like coffee and you get, "so you think coffee drinkers should be executed?" That is bad faith argument.

[cwydro]

179. Oh my.

[Hekate]

239. +1 MADem

Number One on the list of things that make DU suck, explained in detail.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

27. The cartoons were push-back. This is murder. nt

[cwydro]

38. yes

exactly.

[MADem]

47. Good grief, READ.

"Push back" will be AGAINST Muslims--it's not to do with the shooting.

[madokie]

125. As an example of what you're saying

Look at how whites treat anyone other than one of them. I'm one of them btw, I know theres a lot of good non-racist people out here like myself. Having said that as an example of how Blacks and Hispanics are treated here in our big cities. The rich want them there because they're cheap labor. Even cheaper if they've been thrown in jail and charged with some (little don't really matter to a hill of beans,) crime that makes their worth even less. Theres a big picture here and many don't see it, I feel I do and I can see that you do too. IMHO

[MADem]

134. Yes, exactly--at a risk of inciting a kerfluffle, it's that "privilege" thing at work.

I suppose in Catholic (albeit 'secular Catholic' in many quarters) France, it's more of a "Christian" privilege thing. Or it might be a "Fair and French" thing, versus a "Curly and Swarthy" thing. There's The Majority, and then there are The Others. And those Others aren't part of the ruling class, and they are--all of them--to be grouped and looked upon with suspicion.

The Japanese have an expression -- The nail that sticks up gets hammered down. Anyone who has ever been one of those nails knows what the deal is!

[pnwmom]

160. Here is a third person misunderstanding your meaning. Maybe you should change your post

to "push-back against Muslims," instead of insisting that your meaning was perfectly clear.

[MADem]

172. Well, it's a spit decision. It's perfectly clear at this stage, but thanks for your input.

The sense is clear if you read, contextually, the sentence that precedes it.

And asking is better than playing the "So you..." card.

[pnwmom]

195. In general, I agree that asking is better. But in this case, the poster

didn't see the ambiguity (as I didn't, until I read your further responses). So s/he thought he was responding to what you had meant.

[MADem]

197. No--in this case, the poster accused me of endorsing slaughter. I didn't take it well.

Would you?

This is why DU is an unwelcoming place--the "J'ACCUSE!!!!" and GOTCHA!!!!! game makes the place suck.

[pnwmom]

200. I agree that often the word "so" followed by a question ends in an insulting conclusion --

and that's not good.

The poster could have given you the benefit of the doubt and failed to do so.

However, I did misunderstand your meaning in the same way, till I read your explanations, and so did at least one more poster. So why not just change your post so nobody else will misunderstand?

Yes, it's a split decision, but why not make sure everyone understands what you meant to say -- or at least, as many as possible?

[MADem]

213. I think that horse has long left the barn.

Anyone actively reading the post in full context gets it, even if three people were so quick to read a subject line and a short sentence, and not the long one between, that they became confused.

I'll say it yet again, you only see push back after you see a push. It's obvious that--in context (since that is what this is all about) the "push" came when those nuts murdered all those people. The "push BACK" would quite naturally come from those who were pushed--the French authorities--and they would push BACK against Muslims.

Now, if people can't figure that out, they most certainly can ask, but when they accuse me of endorsing slaughter, I take issue.

This thread has been good for one thing--it has revealed a lot of attitudes, some of them surprising to me.

[NCTraveler]

42. The French have been under attack from Muslims for years.

In their own country and abroad. The French, for humanitarian reasons, let a large number of people who view them as enemies into their country. We talk about sleeper cells in our country and things like that. The French have large communities now who hate them and what they stand for. After a large number of Muslims were brought in many of the French people became upset at their government. The governments reaction was then not very friendly to the groups they brought in. They are very segregated and socio-economic conditions aren't very favorable towards the Muslims. At the same time many of the Muslims are extreme in their beliefs and will stand for nothing less than their religion for all. Pretty big bind they are all in.

[KingCharlemagne]

52. Oh, those poor French. You know, maybe if France hadn't invaded and occupied parts of North Africa

(Algeria and Morocco) and the Middle East (Lebanon and Syria), they might not be 'under attack from Muslims' now, ya think?

[leftynyc]

61. So of course assassinating

a magazine editor because they think he insulted their prophet is the answer to the problem. All this is going to do is make things worse for Muslims in France and using your own argument, how can you be against anyone who says they shouldn't let anyone from any of those countries inside the borders of France?

[KingCharlemagne]

99. The person to whom I responded asserted that the French were "under attack

by Muslisms" AT THE VERY SAME TIME THAT FRANCE IS MUCKING AROUND IN SYRIA. FFS!

[leftynyc]

101. Do you really mean to

tag all Muslims with these jihadists because that's what it certainly sounds like. It also sounds like you're giving the jihadists a pass because of Syria. I'm sure that's not what you mean but that is what it sounds like.

[KingCharlemagne]

106. Let me be clear: pissing and moaning that the French are 'under attack by Muslims' represents

the height of hypocrisy for anyone who can remember more than the events of last week or last month.

[leftynyc]

118. So they can piss and moan about

being under attack as long as they put in the historical context. Got it.

[KingCharlemagne]

126. Not exactly. But, if you want to get a sense of the monumental crimes

against Muslims for which France and the French are responsible, you might start by reading up a bit on the history of the so-called Dirty War ("la guerre sale&quot in Algeria. The wiki article is a good place to start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War

Bernard Fall's Street Without Joy (1961) will give you a good sense of France's imperial adventures in southeast Asia (by way of showing that France's crimes extended far beyond the Arab and Muslim peoples).

[leftynyc]

127. I know all about the mess in Algeria

but seeing as they didn't attack the military or any political figures in France and the target was a magazine with a history of mocking the prophet, my brain tells me history had very little to do with this.

[KittyWampus]

146. And the post that spawned your subthread said that France was under attack by Muslims

using the EXACT rhetoric and argument Neo-Nazi politicians in European countries use to express their racist anti-Immigration sentiments.

Hate speech laws and decorum prevent elected politicians in Europe from spouting overt racism but they sugar-coat just as the DU'er above unitentionally does.

I hope that DU'er either deletes or refines their statement. It's almost certain they didn't intend for it to read the way it does.

It's over-broad regarding Muslims and neglects to mention quite a lot of what is going on regarding various ethnic groups in France AND the political realities.

[GGJohn]

124. So you're ok with this attack because the French are, in your words, MUCKING AROUND IN SYRIA?

Are you sure you're in the right place?

[MADem]

190. No one is suggesting that this attack is "OK." Why in hell do all conversations on DU devolve to

this kind of shit?

It's sad, it really is.

I would wager that no one on this thread "endorses" the vicious murders in France.

I will also wager that most--but not all, sadly--people here are not unreasonablly bigoted towards Muslims as a group. I would hope that people who like to wear the "Progressive" label would understand that there is a difference between Muslims who are just regular, ordinary people born into a culture and/or practicing a religion, and crazy ass terrorists who follow a doctrine of hatred that the vast majority of people who call themselves Muslims reject.

[polly7]

201. Good post. nt.

[malaise]

142. No one ever remembers what the West is doing in

these countries.

Sadly, an eye for an eye will make the entire planet blind.

[randome]

144. "An eye for an eye" means nothing to these murderers. There is no sense of balance in their minds.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]

[malaise]

150. That's precisely what they think of all of us in the West

Neither side understands balance

[KingCharlemagne]

166. Mark Twain's comments about the so-called 'Reign of Terror'

during the French Revolution bear re-reading:

THERE were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.

A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

[malaise]

209. Mark Twain is my guru

That said I don't get the attack on a satirical magazine. No one there inflicted death, destruction or suffering on any one in the former French colonies within or outside of the Middle East.

Sadly the vast majority of attacks on the press in Iraq and the Middle East went unnoticed during Bush and Cheney's illegal war against Iraq.

The Al Jazeera staff in Egypt's prison are there with Western complicity. That's our military dictatorship. All the leftist media folks who were slaughtered by Pinochet and the other pro-Western dictators in Latin America and the Caribbean received scant attention from folks in the West.

Until everyone learns that good old Jamaican proverb 'same knife stick goat, stick sheep' we'll continue killing in the name of some absurd religious belief or for the other religion - capitalism.

I hate every single religion equally.

[KingCharlemagne]

214. I think what Twain's narrator was getting at in that passage I cited is that people get

all upset about the 'hot violence' (like this attack in Paris) but don't get too disturbed over the longer and equally brutal 'cold violence' (like Europe's despicable record in the Middle East).

I considered posting the relevant excerpt from Sir Winston Churchill's War Office Memo of 1919 where he endorses the use of poison gas (mustard gas as well as tear gas) on the 'uncivilized tribes' in Iraq and the Arab Peninsula. But not sure now what the point would be. If you're interested, though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_British_use_of_chemical_weapons_in_Mesopotamia_in_1920

I can't say I hate every religion equally. Buddhism, for example, although not without its own bellicose episodes in the very distant past, has a recent tradition of embracing non-violence without reservation (at least in the sects with which I'm familiar). I probably hate 'religiosity' as much as anything, an attitude of which I'm sure Twain would approve.

[malaise]

222. And of course he was correct

I agree 100%

[NCTraveler]

73. Not sure how you got to that response after reading my post.

I addressed both sides. Good and bad. What do you mean "those poor French." I did not make them out to be innocent by standards. Some people only read what they want to.

[KingCharlemagne]

97. Well, you used the phrase "under attack by Muslims." Funny, but the

people of Syria could just as easily say they are "under attack by (French) Catholics". France is still mucking around in Syria, some 100 years after Sykes-Picot, FFS.

[Union Scribe]

94. Pretty sure no French cartoonists invaded Muslim lands.

[KingCharlemagne]

103. For your ongoing amusement, you might find the following article of interest:

One organized pseudo-guerrilla unit, however, was created in December 1956 by the French DST domestic intelligence agency. The Organization of the French Algerian Resistance (ORAF), a group of counter-terrorists had as its mission to carry out false flag terrorist attacks with the aim of quashing any hopes of political compromise.

But it seemed that, as in Indochina, "the French focused on developing native guerrilla groups that would fight against the FLN", one of whom fought in the Southern Atlas Mountains, equipped by the French Army.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War

[philosslayer]

139. Do you think this could be a false flag operation?

Executed by right wing groups to stir up hatred against Muslims? Its an interesting theory, and certainly a possibility.

[KingCharlemagne]

141. It's been quite some time since I paid close attention to internal French affairs. I remember the

Front National of Jean-Marie le Pen as a vipers' nest of anti-Muslim and anti-semitic sentiment all rolled into one. But I'm not sure the FN has retained that extreme right-wing tinge now that the father's daughter, Marine, is party chief. Certainly the cadre that made up the DST during the Algerian Dirty War are now old pensioners if they still survive. But their heirs?

[muriel_volestrangler]

161. And Charlie Hebdo is a left wing satirical magazine

This attack was not because of what the French state did in Algeria; it's not because of what the French state is doing in Syria (which is, of course, supporting some Muslims against the most violent Muslims). It's because CH published cartoons of Mohammed. That's why they shouted "we have avenged the prophet", and targetted cartoonists.

It's stupid to claim this is about Syria or Algeria.

[KingCharlemagne]

164. Sigh. I brought up Algeria and Syria not to excuse this attack nor to

provide a reason for it, but to respond with some historical context to someone's assertion upthread that the French had been "under attack by Muslims for years." The reality is that Muslims have been under attack by the French for over a century, not that such niceties matter.

[muriel_volestrangler]

168. Bollocks - of course #52 was to try to excuse/provide a reason for the attack

You said "maybe if France hadn't invaded and occupied parts of North Africa (Algeria and Morocco) and the Middle East (Lebanon and Syria), they might not be 'under attack from Muslims' now, ya think?"

[KingCharlemagne]

169. Bollocks back at ya. I take it then you agree with post #42 that spawned this

subthread that "the French have been under attack by Muslims for years"?

[muriel_volestrangler]

173. I don't particularly agree with that analysis, but it's true that there have been

several attacks. The point is that your post #52 was directly trying to provide an excuse or reason for this attack, and you shouldn'ty try to deny it.

[KingCharlemagne]

177. Sigh. Can we at least agree that, had the French not stuck their noses into the Middle East after

the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1918, there would be no ongoing casus belli?

The Muslims in France are not there because the Emir of Cordoba invaded in 732 C.E.

[muriel_volestrangler]

186. No, I don't think that's a reasonable way to put it

We know these particular murderers did it "to avenge the prophet"; they attacked a left wing satirical magazine that published cartoons of Mohammed. The Danes did not have any colonies etc. in the Middle East, but they got threats too, because of cartoons.

These killers said they are from Yemen:

Charlie Hebdo gunmen claimed to be Yemeni Al-Qaeda: witness

Cédric Le Béchec, a 33-year-old estate agent, witnessed the attack on the satirical magazine.

He said that the men arrived in a black car, stopping in the middle of the street. One of them was carrying a rocket-propelled grenade. They were dressed in black military-style clothing.

Mr. Le Bechec said that before launching the assault, the attackers approached another man in the street saying, “Tell the media that this is Al-Qaeda in Yemen.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/01/07/charlie-hebdo-gunmen-claimed-to-be-yemeni-al-qaeda-witness/

France has not had any involvement in Yemen. These attacks are about what the gunmen see as a religious matter.

if you want to examine history, most of the Muslims in France come from the colonies they had before 1918, not after it, such as Algeria and Tunisia.

[KingCharlemagne]

192. Please allow me to revise my request: Can we simply agree that, had France not

colonized the Middle East before and after 1918, there would be no ongoing casus belli?

[muriel_volestrangler]

228. No, I can't agree with that

See my remarks about Denmark.

[KingCharlemagne]

249. Point of information: AOL is now reporting that the 3 arrested were all

French nationals of Algerian descent (with one anonymous official claiming they were linked to AQ in Yemen):

Brothers Said Kouachi, 34, and Sherif Kouachi, 32 and 18-year-old homeless man Hamid Mourai, all French citizens of Algerian descent, were named in a police statement released Wednesday evening.

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/01/07/gunmen-who-stormed-charlie-hebdo-offices-killing-12-identified/21126406/?icid=maing-grid7

[LeftishBrit]

255. I doubt it in this case

One can of course speculate forever about alternative histories and what they might have led to; but this group, from whatever one can tell, seem to have nothing directly to do with colonialism or anti-colonialism. They didn't attack representatives of the French government or military, which would have been the logical consequence of retaliation for colonialism; they attacked the staff of a secularist, satirical journal.

[KingCharlemagne]

257. All 3 were of Algerian descent, according to AOL. One is entitled to ask just how and why it

is that people of Algerian descent are living in France, I'd think.

Brothers Said Kouachi, 34, and Sherif Kouachi, 32 and 18-year-old homeless man Hamid Mourai, all French citizens of Algerian descent, were named in a police statement released Wednesday evening.

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/01/07/gunmen-who-stormed-charlie-hebdo-offices-killing-12-identified/21126406/?icid=maing-grid7 (Emphasis added)

[LeftishBrit]

260. I have changed and updated that in line with current info; but even so, all of them were born long

after Algeria became independent. This is not an Algerian revolutionary struggle.

[KingCharlemagne]

261. Yes, I saw a report in passing (can't remember where now) that one of the 3 said he

became radicalized as a result of the Abu Ghraib torture revelations.

So, on behalf of all of 'Old Europe,' please allow me to say, "Merci beaucoup, RummyDummy, Darth Cheney and DimSon. Oh, yeah, and thanks also to that grand Napoleon, General Ricardo Sanchez."

Again (if it's needed)

[LeftishBrit]

251. This has nothing to do with Algeria; it is some insane religious nutcases on a murderous rampage

Last edited Fri Jan 9, 2015, 05:10 AM - Edit history (1)

As for LePen et al, they are still far-RW if slightly more genteel in expressing it than in LePen pere's days; and they've of course just been handed a big propaganda weapon on a silver platter.

But Charb and his colleagues of Charlie Hebdo had nothing to do with LePen, or Algeria either. They were killed because some loony nutcases thought it was the right thing to murder 'blasphemers'.

[KingCharlemagne]

253. They may be "insane religious nutcases on a murderous rampage," but AOL is reporting

that the 3 arrested were all French nationals of Algerian descent, fwiw.

http://www.aol.com/article/2015/01/07/gunmen-who-stormed-charlie-hebdo-offices-killing-12-identified/21126406/?icid=maing-grid7

[GGJohn]

147. Oh good Gawd!!!!! Are you serious?!?

Take this CT shit to the Creative Speculation group where it belongs.

[LeftishBrit]

259. Incredibly unlikely, I think

Not that the Lepenistes won't make hay with it; but I'm sure it wasn't a false flag.

[treestar]

131. They didn't have to allow immigration to France itself

This is a different situation.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

250. For over 300 years, the N. African Moslem caliphates murdered and enslaved thousands

They destroyed shipping and even Thomas Jefferson had to address it. Finally, in the early 1800s, the wholesale kidnapping, hijacking, enslavement, and murder stopped completely when European countries invaded N. Africa. There's a long history of barbarism on the part of Arabic North Africa. In Algeria, the native Berbers are discriminated against and treated like second class citizens by the Arabic-speaking population. Look to the 4,000 European civilians murdered in Oran as France was pulling out of Algeria. It was a demonstration of racist hatred against anything Jewish or Christian. The facts go both ways throughout history, but the poor murdering Arabs have not been pure as snow.

[KingCharlemagne]

252. I'll let Sir Winston Churchill respond to your "poor murdering Arabs" line:

"I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected."

War Office Minutes (May 12, 1919)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_British_use_of_chemical_weapons_in_Mesopotamia_in_1920

By Gad, a little mustard gas will show them there uncivilized uppity darkies.

(in case it's needed)

[mathematic]

254. I don't think you're the real King Charlemagne at all.

No sir.

[MADem]

53. And there are many, MANY Muslims who will suffer in France because of those assholes, who have not

done anything wrong, but will be blamed based solelly on their religion or their ethnic appearance.

Some people do not realize that the French colonized a number of Muslim nations, and "Frenchified" them. This is why French is the 2nd language in so many of them. When they "liberated" the countries, they gave the citizens a choice of going w/the French or staying with the new nation--many hedged their bets and took the French passport. Many of those nations have easier immigration requirements, or children/grandchildren can immigrate easier because they have a parent/grandparent who has French citizenship.

Everyone gets tarred with the same brush as a result of this shit.

[NCTraveler]

76. Agree with everything you typed. nt.

[KittyWampus]

143. This is the rhetoric that Far-Right Politicians in pretty much every European country use

So I am a bit disturbed to see it made here and I don't think it was what you intended.

It's politely put but it's anti-Immigant and Islamaphobe rhetoric as politicians spout in Europe.

I say Far-Right, but the fact is it's Neo-Nazis.

DU doesn't talk much about the Neo-Nazis in Europe.

I really, really think you should either delete your post or refine it.

I am certain you didn't mean it to read the way it does.

[LeftishBrit]

258. This is completely oversimplified...

You make it sound as though France was incredibly generous to a bunch of evil ingrates. This is not the case - they have a higher Muslim population than some Europaean countries because of their long-term involvement with Algeria, not out of 'humanitarianism'. And it is not the case that most French Muslims 'hate' France; this is LePen-party propaganda.

Unfortunately, there are extremists who do hate secularist Westerners - not to mention hating most other Muslims of the 'wrong' persuasions; and Al Quaeda and similar groups have in recent times been causing violence and recruiting people for the 'cause'; but that does not mean that French Muslims in general are violent extremists.

[pnwmom]

154. This isn't "Muslim push-back." It's fundamentalist terrorism.n/t

[GoneOffShore]

256. I certainly hope there is more push-back from the remaining Charlie Hebdo staff

More cartoons, more skewering of silly religions and sillier religious prophets.

[demosincebirth]

262. Terrorism is terrorism and guess who are the ones doing it. This time over a cartoon. Those

who think Islam does not breed these fanatics are the some one who think the U.S. is responsible for all the problems in this world. The U.S., has done many wrongs to many people throughout our history, but these fanatics deserve no quarter where ever they are.

[MADem]

265. The ones doing it are lunatics--but "Islam" doesn't, in and of itself, breed them.

It takes a brew of geopolitical shenanigans, nefarious, power-hungry people, historic injustices, and bone-headed idiots with wrong-headed ideas who convince others (never themselves--they stay safe while they send other fools to die) to go all nut-jobby over these things.

It was lunatics with bone-headed ideas about a woman's right to choose who shot doctors performing abortion services.

Last time I checked, Tim McVeigh had nothing to do with Islam. He still blew up a building in OK.

Blaming "Islam" as an entity unto itself as being responsible for this is simplistic and xenophobic.

[demosincebirth]

266. your comparisons are as lopsided as a square tire

[CJCRANE]

3. It's time to put boots on the ground.

Militarize western society and send more troops to the Middle East.

[pinboy3niner]

8. I have some boots I can send

They're a little worn and beat up from Vietnam, but I'm sure they'll understand.

[KingCharlemagne]

49. Since France was the original (European) imperial power to occupy Vietnam, I can think of

few boots that would be more appropriate! Just sayin'

[pinboy3niner]

64. When I worked at the Wall I met a visitor who had been a French paratrooper in VN

What a trip! One or both of us had deja vu all over again...

[KingCharlemagne]

217. Do you remember if he was French Foreign Legion or regular French Army? As imperial

storm-troopers go, the French 'paras' in Vietnam were some serious bad asses. But Giap and the Viet Minh were no slouches either.

[pinboy3niner]

226. Regular Army, I think

It was a long time ago so I can't be sure, but I think I'd remember if he'd mentioned FFL.

[ellenrr]

11. This worked so well in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[newfie11]

13. +1. Nt

[whathehell]

80. Do you have a better solution?

[HereSince1628]

95. We need more U.N.C.L.E.; less T.H.R.U.S.H.

Much much more Illya Kuryakin.

And pencil radios...wait, wait...no that's wrong...we've got all the pencil radios we need.

[whathehell]

105. Uh huh.

If this is an attempt to hide behind sarcasm, I'd suggest it's rather lame.

You could try a real answer, of course, but that would necessitate your actually

having one.

[HereSince1628]

117. U.N.C.L.E.: the ficticious United Nations Command for Law and Enforcement

What is happening in many countries is largely criminal activity. It needs to be treated as criminal activity.

Some of this is organized and international. UNCLE was a mythical version of an operationally competent Interpol.

The S and H in T.H.R.U.S.H.--the fictional bad guyes--stood for Subjugation of Humanity. A rather heavy handed name but one which adequately describes the imposition of religious law on the unwilling.

So sarcasm? Well only as much as to suggest "going to war there to deal with criminals here" has been and remains mostly a waste of military resources.

And we'll probably need international policing efforts forever, because while wars end when the political will to continue fails, human nature is a garden that perpetuates criminal behavior.

[HereSince1628]

14. Clear evidence the West must at least pass laws banning hoodies?

[randome]

17. No, just cross your fingers and hope for the best.

That usually works, too.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[pinboy3niner]

25. Pull my finger

There ya go!

[whathehell]

79. LOL..

That seems to be the only "acceptable" answer, at least on this board.

[Bluenorthwest]

18. 12 people are dead in Paris.

Paris is in France.

[justiceischeap]

32. It's also in Texas. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

88. Two in Canada, Paris Ontario and Yukon...in the US....

16 more towns called Paris.

[muriel_volestrangler]

162. Satire, or your real opinion?

I can see some here who'd like to militarise western society, so, sadly, I have to ask.

[CJCRANE]

167. Well...

My bias is that I'm against religious fundamentalism which is why I'm against western policy in the Middle East because I think we've only succeeded in creating new terrorists (in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria).

We've made the extremists vastly more rich and powerful both in the west and the ME. Now, this can either be put down to incompetence or more nefarious purposes such as creating a vicious circle that feeds the MIC and police state...because if we really wanted to reduce extremism we wouldn't be pumping billions into supporting rebels and at the same time fighting rebels.

So, in short, my comment was satire.

[randome]

5. A quibble: 'local hour' doesn't really mean anything except to you. Wherever you are.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[cwydro]

20. I think the OP

meant "local hour" as in what time it was in Paris when the shooting took place.

I believe it was around that time.

[randome]

89. D'oh!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[mylye2222]

6. BREAKING. 12 death

One of the terrorist screamed "We just revenged the Prophet"

[dissentient]

7. Every French magazine and newspaper should run satirical cartoons about Mohammed as a response

to these Islamic terrorists and this latest terror attack.

Freedom of the press should trump terrorists and their bizarre, stupid, and sickening fundamentalist beliefs every time.

[CJCRANE]

9. Don't you think it's strange France supports extremist rebels in Syria

and toppled Gadaffi who held a lid on extremists?

Now taunting the extremists we have helped create more of seems like a recipe for disaster that will lead to a police state and more war. Perhaps that's the plan.

[leftynyc]

16. How nice of the murderous scum who

did this to help that theory right along. Because obviously the concept of free speech and the press is something that can't be tolerated.

[CJCRANE]

23. But we support that "scum"

with our policies that pump billions into extremist groups.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

28. Past mistakes are no reason for future mistakes.

[CJCRANE]

31. That's not the past. This is right now in an ongoing war we support.

Terrorism has increased 500% since 2000. The Iraq invasion was one of the prime drivers for that and now the Syria intervention is also fueling it.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

33. That does not give them license to murder people in the streets.

Those who did this and any who support them deserve every ounce of misery the people can pour on them.

Yes. Stop the wars but hunt down these animals.

[CJCRANE]

39. I agree but if we finance extremism it is going to increase.

There is no two ways about it. Even the "moderate" groups we finance are jihadists.

It's a good policy to take down governments we don't like and increase our geopolitical advantage but is it worth it for our citizens?

[Yo_Mama]

46. But the magazine is targeted for failing to observe Islamic rules about what may be said!

The bottom line is that there are those in France who want to impose their culture on EVERY person in France.

This is the second time this magazine has been attacked.

[Renew Deal]

34. Often it's scum vs scum in these decisions.

[leftynyc]

50. Don't pretend that's what happened here

because that's complete bullshit. This was done specifically because some find the concept of freedom of the press too much freedom for them to deal with. There is no larger agenda here - just scum who can't handle the concept of freedom.

[CJCRANE]

59. These groups have a lot more money and support now

directly due to those policies abroad, and they are also all linked together via social media. It's all part of the same thing.

I am totally against religious fundamentalism. That's why I want to see the billions the extremist groups get stopped.

[dissentient]

21. Taunting them should be the least they should do, these despicable terrorists need to be hunted

down and put on trial, or if they put up resistance, then terminated so they can't kill any more people.

[CJCRANE]

24. We support that scum in other countries

with billions to lay waste to Syria. They're all part of the same network and ideology.

Yes, of course they should be hunted down. But it's an absurd policy to support extremists on one hand who will attack us on the other.

[dissentient]

30. I'm getting really tired of these insane Islamic terrorists attacking Australia, France and the

United Kingdom lately. They are killing innocent people in some crazed and twisted belief that their God demands it.

[CJCRANE]

36. Saddam, Gadaffi and Assad kept a lid on the crazies.

Western governments supported the extremists. You can go to the root of the problem and stop supporting and funding the extremists...or we can continue to support them with one hand and get attacked by them on the other. It's a self-feeding conflict.

Do we want to be in a police state and permanent war or do we want to get to the root of why this is happening more and more?

[dissentient]

48. I agree that our Western foreign policy has been a complete disaster

ever since the Iraq invasion, we have been fucking around in the Middle East. And making it worse than it already is.

If it was up to me, I'd withdraw ALL American presence in that region.

That said, these Islamic terrorists need to be exposed to the light like the cockroaches they are, and taken out before they kill more people.

They seem to be raising their disgusting heads way too much and committing way too many atrocities lately.

[polly7]

85. Exactly. nt.

[joshcryer]

98. Wow.

The "crazies" are caused by increased radicalization.

The left wing in Paris are about to be ousted, and it'll benefit only the radical Islamists, because it's going to really help with recruitment. The entire EU is moving rightward. History is repeating itself.

[Fred Sanders]

110. You make a lot of cogent arguments, America has increased the world supply of terrorists, on

purpose and by stupid wars....increase the supply of terrorists and what happens?

The Syria/France/America/Libya connection has to be a factor...supporting terrorists in Libya and Syria is such a huge mistake, a mistake being repeated.

[polly7]

83. +1000. nt.

[LanternWaste]

114. Much as the super secret plan Cracked Magazine was involved in during 2010

Much as the super secret plan Cracked Magazine was involved in during 2010 with the assistance of the US government, the DEA and by using the old Soviet Weather Machine helped lead to jack-and-jill booted thugs marching though Ottumwa Iowa.

Devious bastards. No coincidences. No quarter. No thought. No pickles.

[CJCRANE]

136. Western muslims who support the Syrian rebels also support sharia law in the west.

It's the same pool of people.

The west gives money and weapons to the moderate Syrian rebels (al Qaeda affiliates) who give them to ISIS. ISIS gives them to people who want to attack the west. It's a simple equation.

[JI7]

235. these terrorists don't give a shit about fucked up things we have done like torture

their anger is over fucking cartoons and other things they see as insult to the prophet or allah or whatever the fuck.

they are more offended by speech against the religion than with physical harm done to muslims.

[CJCRANE]

263. That's not my point at all.

The west have directly supported extremists in Syria and elsewhere. We are supporting the same type of people who are doing this. We don't know the full details but it's possible that these guys actually fought in Syria and came back. That's my point. I don't justify their actions. They are abhorrent. We should not support people like this abroad who may come back to attack us.

[possiblylogical]

123. One should not.

One should target the terrorist groups rather than Muslims in general.

[philosslayer]

140. Remember when that crazy preacher in Florida wanted to burn the Koran?

And everyone (sane) agreed that he was nuts and shouldn't do it? How is your suggestion any different?

[ellenrr]

10. this is terrible. I am so sad for these people that lost their lives,

I'm sure they were aware that being satiric these days regarding certain subjects takes courage.
I salute them and I weep for them.

and this terrible event is already calling forth the usual cries of
"let's change our immigration policies".

...way to go.... before the blood has dried, let's emote racist hatred.

that always solves the problem.

[Yo_Mama]

51. There were three recent "Allahu Akbar" incidents in France in which drivers attacked pedestrians

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/.premium-1.633265

In at least one attack, the perp was a mental patient.

Let's put it this way, the next Pegida march in Germany is going to get a boost. No population will tolerate this sort of thing.

[nilesobek]

12. The right wing crackdown

and investigation will have severe after effects. Since its a terrorist attack, the security forces might be especially brutal in extracting information which can only hurt any peace or integration. By continuing to silence those who mock the Prophet, Muslims are enforcing their own laws.

[MADem]

77. These aren't "Muslims." These are extremist nuts. They're no more "Muslim" than the idiots who

murder abortion providing doctors are "Christian."

The sad thing is that many people who are Muslim will have to live in fear of being a target of revenge because they will be tainted by these assholes' conduct.

[Quantess]

145. "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Try telling them they aren't muslims.

[muriel_volestrangler]

165. However, nilesobek talked about 'enforcing their own laws', which implies a Muslim community

that has laws. This situation is not about anybody "enforcing their own laws"; it's about a few extremists murdering for reasons they think their religion justifies. A few people cannot lay claim to 'laws'.

[Quantess]

174. Yes, muslim extremists.

Or are you suggesting that muslim extremists aren't really muslims?

I'm not sure whether we agree on that part.

[muriel_volestrangler]

176. They are Muslims; they are also men

There are many categories they can be put in. They are not, however, people with laws; the way nilesobek put it looks like a comment about a large group of Muslims, or Muslims in general:

"The right wing crackdown and investigation will have severe after effects. Since its a terrorist attack, the security forces might be especially brutal in extracting information which can only hurt any peace or integration. By continuing to silence those who mock the Prophet, Muslims are enforcing their own laws."

Notice he does not say "these Muslims", nor is he specifically talking about only these murderers. He says "Muslims" are "continuing" to silence people, so he's talking about other Muslims too. And he claims they have "their own laws". So this is about a large organised group of Muslims, but he's made no effort to claim it is just extremist Muslims, let alone those who make terrorist attacks. Thus, it's appropriate to criticise his loose use of "Muslims".

[Quantess]

182. That much is true.

But I would be interested in knowing what percentage of muslims in general hold the opinion that although they themselves would never commit such a terrible act, the shooting was at least partly justified.

[MADem]

196. Most Imams would call them infidels.

What, precisely, are you saying?

What do you mean with that "No True Scotsman" business? Are you suggesting, really, that this is typical Muslim behavior?

[Quantess]

208. Feel free to look up "no true scotsman".

Of course in no way did I suggest that this is typical muslim behavior. (That's a "strawman" on your part. Strawman is also very easy to look up.)

You said that they aren't real muslims. What is your basis for that wild assertion?

[MADem]

211. I ASKED. I think you maybe need to look up "strawman" because I didn't build one at all.

Real Muslims would not behave that way. What those people did is completely contrary to the essential precepts of the faith.

Wild assertion, you say?

I think you're stepping on shaky ground or perhaps you don't understand that Islam isn't a card-carrying religion; it's one that is defined by acts. No Muslim would endorse this conduct. This is outright murder and unacceptable.

[Quantess]

215. ...which all sounds like a classic "no true scotsman" fallacy.

Anyway, nice talking to you. I have to get to work.

[MADem]

225. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Have a good day at work. nt

[mr blur]

181. What absolute nonsense!

If the only defence you have for these vicious believers is the "No True Scotsman" one then you may as well not bother. It just makes you look rather ridiculous.

[MADem]

187. What are you saying? Please be VERY specific. Are you actually trying to suggest that the conduct

of these nutballs is endorsed by the average Muslim?

If that isn't your intent, please make it clear, because otherwise, I have no choice but to believe that you are taking a bigoted stance against all Muslims, and I certainly don't want to accuse you of that if that's not what you mean.

Please--be clear. I'm waiting.

[AtheistCrusader]

184. Where did they get the idea that images of this muhammad guy are offensive?

Just curious where that sort of information is sown.

[MADem]

185. From the same fundie places where the whole prohibition against "graven images" comes...

People, long dead, who thought the sun revolved around the earth made those pronouncements--they're just not applicable to modern times but some people find a security in literal interpretations--it makes them feel secure, as though things will never change.

[AtheistCrusader]

189. What's the 'figurative' interpretation of those passages?

Since you find the literal interpretation unreasonable/objectionable.

[MADem]

194. Most people who follow the faith don't give a shit about these kinds of things.

They follow the five pillars--most not religiously, or very well, or thoroughly, but they might make an effort on occasion, they celebrate the appropriate holidays, and they identify in a cultural way with the principles of the faith.

Why do people think that every Muslim has a Qu'ran tucked under their arm, that they've memorized?

Does everyone who calls themselves Christian, or who celebrates Christmas and eats a ham dinner at Easter, have the Bible memorized?

I mean, really....

Most people don't give that much of a shit. It is a cultural association as much as anything else.

[AtheistCrusader]

199. Unfortunately...

I know a lot of Christians that have memorized to a great extent the contents of that book. And a lot that engage in varying levels of literal interpretation.

If I lived in a muslim-dominated society, I'd expect to find the same, just with a different brand of religion.



So, as an outsider observing, that outcome looks somewhat expected. Deplorable, but expected.

[MADem]

219. I know people who identify as Christians, Muslims and Jews who haven't memorized anything.

This idea that the bulk of people spend all their time hunched over a book memorizing is not supported by reality.

They are more apt to be watching a soap opera or a game show on TV or playing a game on XBOX than memorizing religious tracts.

Of course, it doesn't matter if it's a nation, or a microcosm like DU--it only takes one person to cause a stir. Get a couple of 'em at it, and they can cause all sorts of mayhem.

[randome]

203. But it seems like Middle Eastern culture is much MORE wrapped up in religion than ours.

I understand your point, of course, but I also understand those who seem to equate all Muslims with religion since, by definition, being Muslim IS religion, at least much more than it is in the Western world.

Maybe they don't carry the Qu'ran around but they demonstrate how much of an effect religion has on them by wearing their religious clothes.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[MADem]

210. No, people are "culture blind" in their own house.

Muslim courts don't have the ten commandments engraved on the building, for example.

Coinage in Islamic nations don't have "In Allah We Trust" written on them.

No one bats an eye when a person taking an oath (police, fire, military, politician, judge, president, VP, etc.) says "So help me God." No one even notices Christmas decorations everywhere--in every restaurant, convenience store, malls, shops, businesses, etc. The annual Xmas party at workplaces has nothing to do with the birth of Christ, but to someone who isn't of the faith, it has a "religious" overtone.

Those clothes are not "religious." They're cultural and they predate the religion. They come from a Time Before Sunscreen, and a time when kidnapping of women for purposes of forced marriage was par for the course.

Take a good look at what the Virgin Mary wears in the creche. Hint--that is a CHADOR. Look at what old school nuns used to wear before the modernizing of the Vatican in the latter 20th Century. Hint--that is an ABAYA. If those clothes are "religious," they were taken from Christianity.

[randome]

212. But all those Western 'trappings' of religion mean little to Americans.

The coin engravings, even the 10 commandments, although we hear a very vocal minority praising them. In fact you might say that the more public we are about things like that, the less we truly care.

But the clothing far too many in the Eastern world wear today is likely a determined effort to avoid joining the rest of the world. We certainly don't wear the same clothing of centuries past. Too much of the Muslim world is driven by fear.

They need to grow up, to put it mildly.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[MADem]

218. But Islamic "trappings" just HAVE to have great import? See where you are culture blind?

Americans can "not care," but Muslims have to freak out about every religious expression in their environment...?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the whole "clothing" argument, but it sounds a bit xenophobic to me. If that's not your intent, I would appreciate clarification.

People who don't dress like YOU do need to "grow up?" That's --to put it politely--offensive. In Kurdistan, Cambodia, Vietnam, any Native American "rez," we can find people who do not dress like you--or me. People have a right to their traditional forms of dress. Men wear skirts in Scotland--do they need to be "corrected," too?

If you are talking about forced hijab, that's a different thing. But much clothing worn in that part of the world has as a purpose the goal of shielding people from the sun. Thobes and keffiyahs serve the same purpose as an abaya--it's "shade as you go."

[randome]

224. You don't see a 'Christian' walking down the street.

But you can tell most Muslims from a good distance. That's a major difference right there in how much religion is part and parcel of some people's lives.

And clearly Muslims living in France and America have no need to be shielded from the Sun. Their clothing is a byproduct of their religion as much as it is their culture.

I'm simply pointing that out. Anyone can wear anything they want, it's no big deal to me, but I doubt I'd have much in common with someone who wants to wear their religion -or culture- on the outside 24/7.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]

[MADem]

231. You see what you assume are Muslims. You aren't always correct, though.

In actual fact, Armenian, Coptic, Orthodox and other Christians, Zoroastrians, Alawites, and people of other faiths/sects wear "garb" that you might mistake as "Muslim." You could easily mistake a Christian for a Muslim in Palestine, for example.

How soon people forget that idiots in this country were trying to kill or maim Sikhs because they thought they were Muslim, "on account of the turban" you see... Should Sikhs be forced to "grow up?" How about south Asian women who wear traditional saris? Do they need to 'achieve maturity' and dress in western clothing to fit in?

You've never spent time on the Riviera--you can get a sunburn in France. Really. And the clothing has a dual purpose of keeping one warm at night--the temperature fluctuations in middle eastern/southwest asian nations are sometimes quite dramatic. It can get quite chilly in the desert.

Regional clothing is regional clothing. George Clooney's new bride is Muslim--can you "tell" by looking?

Plenty of Christians self-identify by wearing a necklace displaying a man being tortured on two sticks of wood, or wearing a bracelet that looks like dice with letters that say WWJD. Mormon fundamentalists wear prairie dresses. Amish wear distinctive clothing, too. So do Mennonites--you can sure see them coming a mile away. Spend some time in Queens--I do, and half my neighbors when I'm visiting there wear long coats and sideburn curls and big hats and beards, and the women wear long skirts and have shaved heads and wigs...

Again--you are culture blind. You don't see evidence of cultural or religious peculiarities because they are common and everywhere. Go into any AME church and you will see a "ladies' uniform"--a particular kind of dress or suit, with a large hat--that looks like it came from the Queen Elizabeth at Ascot collection. It very clearly has a "Sunday best" vibe.

Men's suits are culture-centric, they identify a particular type of person doing a particular job and living a particular type of llfestyle--in Persia, ties (nooses around the neck) are viewed as a western cultural affectation. Beards--once viewed as "Islamic"--have been appropriated by hipsters in fashionable NYC neighborhoods--everyone looks like a jihadist these days. I can remember when every idiot on the street was wearing an Arafat keffiyeh as a fashion statement--plenty still do.

It used to be that it was easy to tell the Americans when they visited other parts of the world, even if they tried to dress down, even if they were the right color or hue as the majority in a country, by their SHOES. They never could get the local footwear right, and for that reason they stood out. Now that shoes are made all over the world, that's no longer the case.

You aren't the only one who might be confused--the Beirut police can't tell the hipsters from the Jihadis, either:



http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/11/beirut-cops-cant-tell-hipsters-from-jihadis.html

It's hard to be a whiskey-swilling, cigar-smoking, beard-loving man in Lebanon these days, because full-bodied facial hair is the surest way to be mistaken for a jihadi. Seems like everyone in Beirut's flannel-wearing crowd has had a run-in with the police, if the stories they told NPR are to be believed.

"My beard is like my girlfriend," remarked bartender Mazen Hariz. He cares for her selflessly, wasting 30 minutes each morning just on making sure she looks healthy and shiny. But now Hariz is thinking of shaving because not a day goes by that he's not interrogated by police about his presumed extremist views. Nearby, another guy told NPR that he's been threatened by gun-wielding cops over his beard but he still loves it. "It's me," he said.

Sure, Lebanon's colorful political and religious scene means the country has weirdos of all stripes. But aspiring craft-brewers may find it easier to convince authorities that the only thing they hate is conventionalism if they carry a flask or a pack of cigarettes on them at all times — both, of course, anathema to true jihadis.

[randome]

236. Of course I can't tell that the new Mrs. Clooney is Muslim. She doesn't wear the clothes 24/7.

But most do. And that's how this sub-thread got started. The majority of the Muslim world wraps up their very identities in clothing. Sure, some parts of Americana do, as well, but they are small sects. Why do we even talk about Muslims instead of Iraqis or Iranians or whatnot? Because they are indistinguishable to most of us. So 'Muslim' becomes the label and that is nothing if not a religious label.

And mistaking Muslims for Sikhs, well, they are all the same to me, people who want to wear their religion 24/7. I have no hostility toward anyone who wants to wear their religion but I likely won't have much in common with them, either.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[MADem]

242. MOST do? You do realize you are digging a HUGE hole, don't you?

You do realize that MOST Muslims don't live in the Middle East, right?

The nation with the largest Muslim population is ... (drum roll) ... WAIT FOR IT.....



INDONESIA!!!!!!!

Next up are Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh. China has a huge population, too.

The majority of Muslims live in south/southeast Asia--NOT in the Middle East.

[randome]

246. Wouldn't be the first time I've dug a hole.

I may not have the geography correct but I'm still correct that most Muslims wear their religion 'on their sleeves', so to speak. As do most Mormons and other American sects. Clothing is integrated with their religion so it's understandable -not condoning it, mind you- that many see all Muslims as the same.

And yes, of course, there are exceptions, like the one you pointed out.

But it's a big schism between the Western and Eastern worlds. We prize variety. Standing out in a crowd. Individualism. Most Muslims don't.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[MADem]

247. Your view of Islam as monolithic is completely off base.

Loyalty in that end of the world is first to family, second to community (or tribe in systems where tribal associations serve as the lawgiving system). Islam, as a faith is entirely LOCAL. There is no "Pope" of Islam, there is no Big Muslim Boss telling everyone what to think. The Imam is the local authority, and one Imam might not agree with the next one.

Some Imams gain fame, like Khomeini and Khameni, and the Shias have a tendency to elevate theirs to celebrity status, owing to the fact that the country where most of them are located is run by clerics, but you need to understand that they--the most visible--are the MINORITY of Muslims in the world. They are just over ten percent of the crew, and not representative.

[Warren Stupidity]

216. They're no more "Muslim" than the idiots who murder abortion providing doctors are "Christian."

That is a true statement, these muslims are exactly the same amount of muslim as the christians murdering doctors are christians. 100% in each case. Both acting on their beliefs in imaginary beings.

[QuestionableC]

15. Video of shooting

http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=bc6_1420632668

Trigger Warning: NSFL / execution of policeman

[Renew Deal]

22. The world cannot live in fear of these gangsters

And it should work to reduce their numbers

[Nuclear Unicorn]

37. It's a war crime to execute those who surrender.

[joshcryer]

74. Horrific murderers.

Seeing some more videos on that site, it's horrific.

[bighart]

75. That video is heartbreaking

I can't put into words the disgust this kind of thing stirs in me.

[MADem]

104. Horrific--that poor policeman, if he'd played dead he might have gotten through.

What a brutal scene.

Whoever was filming that was shaking. I wonder who that person was?

[alcibiades_mystery]

135. Wounded police officer puts his hands up in plea for mercy

Terrorist shoots him point blank in the head.

Motherfucker.

Motherfucker.

[Marrah_G]

148. Monsters...the world is full of monsters

But if we give in to the demands of monsters under threat of violence they will continue to demand more and more. We need to get out of the middle east and let them and their neighbors resolve their own issues.

[kelly1mm]

163. Thank you for posting that. Hard to watch, but glad I did. RIP to the officer. nt

[MohRokTah]

35. Social Media is exploding

People are tweeting and posting the satirical comics all over the world.

I had never heard of this magazine. These terrorists have insured that MILLIONS, if not at least a BILLION will see the cartoons they were so offended about.

[cwydro]

40. Good.

I'm glad to hear this.

[leftynyc]

90. Good - as far as I'm concerned

it should be on the front page of every paper in the free world. Whoever doesn't like it can get the fuck out and find a place that has no problem with their medieval thinking.

[MohRokTah]

91. The terrorists have martyred the cartoonists.

The effect of their terrorism is turning out to be the exact opposite of what they desired.

[hrmjustin]

41. Heartbreaking! This is over a cartoon?

[MohRokTah]

44. IF you feel like you have to kill people who make fun of your religion...

you have no faith at all in your religion.

I never heard about anybody being killed over the Piss Christ piece of artwork.

[Yo_Mama]

54. Well, it only takes a few weirdos.

Most Muslims living in the west don't want to do this sort of thing.

I agree completely with your statement. God the infinite can take care of himself.

This isn't about religion - it's about human egotism wrapped in a religious justification.

Sisi's recent speech comes to mind.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

82. "it's about human egotism wrapped in a religious justification."

Exactly.

[Yo_Mama]

55. No, the mag was about to publish a parody of France under shariah law

I imagine that angered certain individuals.

[hrmjustin]

56. Thank you. Just infuriating and frightening.

[Yo_Mama]

58. When this magazine was bombed a few years ago it was about a cartoon.

Literally. A cartoon.

[hrmjustin]

60. I wonder if they had security. i heard two killed were police.

[Yo_Mama]

62. According to bystanders it seemed like police responding.

12 now reported dead, another 4 listed critical.

[hrmjustin]

63. Did they get the killers?

[Yo_Mama]

66. Not yet. Manhunt in Paris underway.

Original getaway car discarded.

[hrmjustin]

68. Just so sad.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

69. This is how they respond to concerns about their beliefs being cast in an unfavorable light?

Murderous idiots.

[Yo_Mama]

121. Sisi pointed out in his recent speech that this brand of Islam was

antagonizing the entire world. He said that reform was needed, and that it could not be possible that less than 2 billion Muslims wanted to kill the rest of the 7 billion humans in the name of Allah.

I suspect that this action may have been partly prompted by Sisi's speech, which was given to to a very famous college of imams in Egypt. Of course Sisi is guarded by the Egyptian army, but his sentiments are so aggravating that I did expect violence as a result.

Of course Sisi was right; actions such as these and all the other atrocities, most of which are committed against other Muslims, are rapidly turning off the world. These types are famous for attacking journalists in Islamic countries.

[muriel_volestrangler]

171. They weren't about to publish it themselves - it's a book

http://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-et-jc-charlie-hebdo-michel-houellebecq-20150107-story.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/author-of-book-envisioning-2022-france-under-muslim-rule-says-novel-is-not-islamophobic-9958954.html

They just had a cartoon about the author on the cover, and perhaps something about it inside.

I was wondering about putting up a thread about the book on DU this morning, before the attack happened.

[Yo_Mama]

65. Der Spiegel is reporting that that cartoonist was among those killed.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/schiesserei-bei-charlie-hebdo-liveticker-zu-anschlag-in-paris-a-1011713.html

[hrmjustin]

67. CNN was saying they called out specific people.

[Yo_Mama]

78. It seems to have been a very targeted attack bent on frightening people into submission.

Four cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo killed.

One of the umbrella organizations for French Muslims supposedly has issued a statement condemning this as a barbaric attack on democracy.

[mylye2222]

71. Two famous cartoinists among the victims.

Cabu and Wolinsky.

[CanonRay]

70. We seem to be in a cycle of blood atonement in many places

where attacks beget revenge attacks or repression which in turn beget more revenge attacks and/or more repression. I don't see this cycle ending any time soon. I'm sure this Paris attack will strengthen the right wing parties in France and the current government will feel compelled to crack down on Muslims, in who knows what way. People are bound to see the new French book "Submission" as prophetic after this.

[KingCharlemagne]

206. I think you are onto something here, as this cycle of irredentist violence (where

attack begets attack begets attack ad infinitum) shows little sign of abating anytime soon.

It makes me very sad as a secular Marxist to see what Blake called the 'mind-forged manacles' stand in the way of human liberation.

Just out of curiosity, is the phrase 'blood atonement' a specific allusion to Mormonism (whence the doctrine derives) or are you calling upon some other religious tradition? I could swear I've heard the phrase used before but it still struck my ear and eye when I saw it here.

[CanonRay]

264. re: Blood Atonement

It is a phrase with which I am familiar from a lot of time in the West and it seemed to best fit the current situation.

[polly7]

84. No, it goes hand in hand with extremists from many religions. nt.

[LexVegas]

93. Buddhist extremists are out of control. nt

[KittyWampus]

221. How An Extremist Buddhist Network Is Sowing Hatred Across Asia

http://time.com/3090990/how-an-extremist-buddhist-network-is-sowing-hatred-across-asia/


Extremism Rises Among Myanmar Buddhists:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/21/world/asia/extremism-rises-among-myanmar-buddhists-wary-of-muslim-minority.html?pagewanted=all

[polly7]

96. Sorry, sell your bigotry to someone else.

Blaming a whole religion billions have faith in - whether it's Christianity or Islam, for these terrorist acts is like blaming you yourself for the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's because of what Cheney and Bush did while in gov't. It's stupid, and unfair.

[mucifer]

102. Most of the mass murderers here in the USA have been Christian and white.

[Ace Rothstein]

109. How many of them are killing the name of Christianity?

[msanthrope]

120. Well, George Bush and Dick Cheney loudly proclaimed their faith as they fomented illegal war,

killing Americans and Iraqis alike.

[MADem]

248. They used that "Crusade" word with great abandon, as I recall....nt

[jeff47]

152. Lots.

For example, the goal of the Oklahoma City bombers was to trigger a race war, resulting in a white, Christian, theocratic nation.

[Jamastiene]

227. Quite a few actually.

Are you forgetting the Oklahoma City bombing, Eric Rudolph bombing the Olympics, a night club and an abortion clinic and all the numerous other examples in recent years? How about doctors killed in the name of Christianity because they performed abortions?
Ever heard of the KKK?

Here is a whole page devoted to answering your question:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

Want more specific examples, although not complete by any means?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_the_United_States#Christian_extremism

Have at it and learn a little along the way. You DID ask.

[randome]

229. You could make the case, however, that a lone madman is different...

...from a group of madmen acting in concert with one another.

And the KKK has been neutered so far as acts of outright terrorism go. And even before, their acts of terrorism were directed internally, not at other countries.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You have to play the game to find out why you're playing the game. -Existenz[/center][/font][hr]

[bighart]

232. Curious about your thoughts on this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026052265

[polly7]

237. .....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026052545

[maced666]

87. Allahu Akbar!!!!!!! screamed the shooters....

Allahu Akbar!
Coward punks.

[Blue_Tires]

100. How long before Greenwald prints his column "explaining" how

France brought this attack on themselves because of their ME policy?

(and yes, if he said that for Ottawa, he has to say that here)

[Union Scribe]

112. ...here come the agendas

So tell me, this is really your reaction to this horror, this is your priority...to get in a jab at Glenn Greenwald?

[Blue_Tires]

116. Greenwald has an agenda, why am I not allowed to have one?

Greenwald repeatedly exploits incidents like this to score cheap political points (read his twitter history if you don't believe me)...All I'm doing is mirroring his own tactics against him...

[TorchTheWitch]

108. OMG how horrible!

Those poor people!

[AllyCat]

111. How awful. More terrorism.

[Recursion]

119. The gunmen are still at large

That's... suboptimal.

[msanthrope]

122. Paris is bracing for the possibility of more attacks. It may not be over. nt

[Yo_Mama]

128. The offices of El Pais in Spain were evacuated due to a suspicious package

German press is reporting that Belgian and Italian governments are meeting and instituting heightened security at sites including newspapers

http://www.msn.com/en-za/news/watch/spain%E2%80%99s-el-pais-evacuates-offices-on-suspicious-packages/vp-AA7SwZT

[Atman]

132. Sad

"Satire was the father of true political freedom, born in the 18th century; the scourge of bigots and tyrants. Sing its praises" - Simon Schama

"Fanaticism is a monster that pretends to be the child of religion" - Voltaire

[randome]

138. Those are European constructs.

Neither means a thing to the part of the world where these murderers come from.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

240. Well, you said it.

Maybe Europeans need to be a little more careful about who they let immigrate to their countries.

I would imagine there are a fair number of Muslims in Europe who would condemn these murders, but do support the silencing of free speech.

[randome]

241. We can't put the toothpaste back in the bottle, however.

Immigration and eventual homogenization of all cultures will occur, but very slowly.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[gwheezie]

137. It's fucked up

What a bunch of loons. Some people just don't know how to worship God.
I listened to a few reports. This wasn't isis it was al Qaida according to some analysts.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

149. Curious that this wasn't a suicide mission.

Well armed, well planned, professional looking and a getaway plan.

Don't know if it is significant or they were just lucky.

[Sunlei]

151. The Perps escaped! how did they manage that much shooting and then escape!

[randome]

153. Cause enough horror and carnage and no one thinks, "I need to go after these guys."

They're too busy tending to the wounded, likely including themselves.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[drray23]

180. they were heavily armed and just killed the policemen who came in

They were heavily armed. Obviously they had planned it carefully. I heard on BBC that after they carried out the attack they had a getaway car that they later ditched for a stolen one. Their attack coincided with a staff meeting of Charlie Hebdo, they asked by name for the editor in chef and the famous cartoonists, bursted into the meeting room and killed 12, wounded 10. It was an horrible bloodbath. The cops just got run over. Now, they have posted cops with bulletproof vests and machine guns in front of every newspaper and other possible targets and raised the alert level to maximum. There is a huge manhunt going on in the city.

[Beacool]

156. 4 Cartoonists Killed In Attack On Charlie Hebdo Newspaper

Four editorial cartoonists were killed in an attack on the satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo on Wednesday, according to French media sources.

The newspaper's editor-in-chief, Stéphane Charbonnier, who was known as "Charb," and also cartooned for the publication, was gunned down. He had led the newspaper since 2012. Also killed were well-known cartoonists Cabu, Wolinski and Tignous.

At least 8 other people were killed in the suspected terror attack.

Charlie Hebdo had a long history of publishing cartoons that lampooned Islam and the Prophet Muhammad. In 2011, its offices were firebombed a day after publishing a cartoon naming Muhammad as its new editor-in-chief.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/07/cartoonists-killed-attack_n_6428962.html


Terrible, poor people. At times I despair for this world. There's so much hatred, so much destruction.

[YoungDemCA]

170. Horrific and despicable

RIP to the victims.

My heart hopes for something good to (eventually) come out of this-if only for as a way to honor those who were murdered-but if history is any guide...that's a fool's hope.

[LittleBlue]

183. The German far right parties are going to benefit hugely from this

RIP to those slain

[KingCharlemagne]

220. You mean the German far right parties whose members have benefitted hugely from Muslims

imported into Germany after 1945 (largely from Turkey) to help it rebuild during the so-called 'Wirtschaftswunder'? The U.S. may have paid for German reconstruction but a large part of the nuts-and-bolts work was performed by Turkmen and their families.

[KittyWampus]

223. Just so. DU seriously has a blind spot about European politics.

[MADem]

233. Many have a foolish idea that Europe is "more liberal" and more accepting.

In actual fact, they are so homogeneous that they have a hard time when there's any chocolate or caramel added to the milk.

The rise of all these far-right parties in Germany, in Holland, in France, in UK and elsewhere isn't something that has happened out of the blue--it has its roots in racism and an unwillingness to be culturally inclusive.

They don't mind "a few" of "those" people--but if there are too many of 'em, they will push back, and push back hard.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

243. But it's not just the chocolate and the caramel

Some Brits are starting to push back against the Poles, as well. Wages are depressed, housing prices are outrageous, and housing is in short supply.

[MADem]

244. Yeah, the European Union (and even those who are EU-lite) kind of falls apart when times are tough.

The Euro is weak, and where the Euro goes, the pound follows...

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

245. The EU, IMO, Is A Corporatist's Wet Dream

The corporatists and banksters are running the EU, imo.

Who could have imagined that? Sure, the regular citizens have much to gain...but in the long run I fear they have much more to lose.

[mylye2222]

238. Kerrys reaction to the attack.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/01/07/john-kerry-charlie-hebdo-attackers-opposed-to-a-civilized-world

He spoke partially in french. And his statement was IMO perfectly suited. A mix of true compassion, call to calm the spieits down and hope.