So question: how can Christians support the death penalty since the Prince of Peace

[closeupready]

was all about forgiveness, and turning the other cheek?

How does that reflect their own religion in a positive light?

I guess the point will be lost on most here, since DU has now become a sub-forum of that other place starting about two weeks ago.

[uppityperson]

1. what other place started about 2 weeks ago? and I agree, should be against

death penalty if you follow the teachings and life of Jesus

[onecaliberal]

2. You cannot call yourself a christian and expect to be taken seriously if you are pro death penalty.

[closeupready]

4. And yet, that's just what they do - even here on DU.

And in the very next thread, condemn Islam as uniquely cruel and horrible.

'You will know them by their works' applies to those who call themselves "Christian", as well.

[onecaliberal]

6. Indeed.

Calling yourself a Christian doesn't make you one any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

[phil89]

21. There's no objective standard

Whatsoever to whom is a Christian, so how would you know?

[onecaliberal]

82. You know by their deeds.

[Maedhros]

83. Well, I think the objective standard is reasonably easy to define.

Read the teachings of Jesus Christ as presented in the New Testament, and apply the moral imperatives therein to the statements and actions of the purported Christian.

In my life I have encountered a fair number of actual Christians, and they were impressive people.

[onecaliberal]

112. I completely agree with you.

[randys1]

34. DU has many many right leaning types...many many

[closeupready]

66. It seems worse now on issues relating to bigotry against muslims

and better with regard to GLBT issues, abortion, racial issues. But I still feel compelled to speak out, even so.

[Bluenorthwest]

93. Oh really? Here's the first OP I read the morning after the last election on DU:

""The openness and brazenness of the LBGT agenda and the media flaunting of gay marriages all across the country cost Dems dearly and threatens to do so in the future."

Yeah, so much better. Now pull the other one.

[bravenak]

111. I remember that. Self delete. Disgusting.nt

[PotatoChip]

70. "You will know them by their fruit" is the quote. (nt)

[PeaceNikki]

36. That is such TOTAL hogwash

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6080829

[Kelvin Mace]

65. Well, now you are getting into some of those lovely

arguments involving the parsing of words and legalistic phrasing that lawyers and Biblical fundamentalists adore. Of course, when it is your life on the line, these legalistic justifications lose a lot of their luster.

It is all fine and dandy to say that murder committed during war is copacetic, but who gets to define "war"? Who gets to say a war is now taking place, so start killing any guy wearing those color pants, or with this skin color, or speaking that language? What is HIS moral justification? Maybe he just decided one day that he wants all of People X's Abba albums, and they won't give them up, so he declares war, gets us all to go stabby on their asses and *boom*, he's hip deep in disco.

Is that a moral justification to commit state sanctioned murder?

[PeaceNikki]

67. To many MANY Christians it is exactly that.

[Kelvin Mace]

69. Which is why I left it behind

and became an atheist.

[PeaceNikki]

71. Amen, brother.

Reformed WELS now atheist leaning agnostic.

[Kelvin Mace]

86. Irish Catholic, altar boy

Catholic school, the whole indoctrination, followed by fundamentalists in college. We parted company when they started on women and gays.

[Kelvin Mace]

3. Well, the answer is that they can't

by any logical reading of the teachings of Christ. But most death penalty supporters aren't following those teaching, they are following the Old Testament.

And what "other place" are you talking about?

[phil89]

22. Didn't christ

Receive the death penalty for Christians' sins? Isn't that the point?

[Kelvin Mace]

42. Yeah, I have kind of pointed that out to

death penalty advocates in the past. They really don't appreciate the dose of reality.

[wellst0nev0ter]

79. I Thought The Fact That Christ Got Executed

and forgave his executioners made it all right?

[Sgent]

76. The Jews

are almost uniformly against the death penalty -- including the ultra orthodox ones.

To be fair, the commandment "Thou shall not kill" is a mis-translation, the correct translation is "Thou shall not murder".

Although its mentioned many times in the bible, the barrier to carry out capital punishment by human courts is extremely high, so high that a court which issues more than one capital punishment every 70 years is said to be considered bloodthirsty.

[Kelvin Mace]

84. Yes, excellent point

and I address it elsewhere in this thread. The tricky part is who gets to make the rules, define the words and the declare the situations. Since this always falls to error prone and ignoble humans, such punishments should never be handed out.

[belzabubba333]

5. he also said render unto cesar that which is cesars and if you commit a crime you become cesars

he also accepted the death penalty even though he could have fled the garden of Gethsemane into the desert on the night of his arrest

[jwirr]

8. I don't know about the Cesar arguement but the he accepted the death penalty is the arguement

I have heard. However when you point out that he was innocent they have no more to say.

[closeupready]

10. How do you know he could have fled (let alone that he existed)?

Because you were there?

[belzabubba333]

15. he wasnt under arrest and he wasnt being held down therefore he was capable of leaving

[Marrah_G]

16. Pretty sure Render unto Caesar refered to money (taxes)

And he was clearly against it when he stopped a woman from being stoned to death "He who is without sin cast the first stone".

He didn't run, as the story goes, because he wanted to become a martyr.

[belzabubba333]

28. he spoke in parables and yes he used taxes as an example but it could be seen as a metaphor

for many things. but the point was to render your soul unto god, give to cesar that which cesar commands but give your soul to god.

the stoned to death story he was speaking out against mob vengence. a mob is not a governmnt or a judicial system

he didnt run b/c it was god's plan that jesus die

[A HERETIC I AM]

37. Shitty plan. n/t

[uponit7771]

47. Perfect symbolic plan under the law, glad he gave the sacrifice and not me

[A HERETIC I AM]

51. As a motif and a reflection of the ancient "scapegoat" idea...

It fits perfectly.

It is however, complete and utter myth and as such, a latecomer to a pantheon of savior God-men that predates that story by several millenia.

It ain't new, it ain't unique and it most certainly is myth. Plain and simple

[uponit7771]

53. Would be if the effects weren't seen in my life, opposite of a spiritualist and do understand

... probabilities...

I have too many improbable in my life to label things as myths, that's anecdotal though...

What's not a myth is no man made the stars nor the trees...

From there "myths" are broken and higher beings become more practical imho...

[A HERETIC I AM]

60. Belief in the Jesus narrative..

And in gods or higher beings in general is intellectually primitive thinking.

Having said that...

I am happy for you that clinging to a 2000 plus year old fable has had a positive influence on you

[uponit7771]

115. Everyone answers to something higher, even their own bodies... "primitive thinking" is ascribed to

... everyone then... not ONLY to those who refuse to think two rocks smashing into each other some inordinate amount of time ago some how (aka randomly) begets parts of beings and non beings bodies self healing in a similar way.

Also

Would be fable if effects weren't real, I can lie and say their not real but that would be a lie

... and thoughtless one.

Catholic Church has done an excellent job of noting these improbabilities... they send the scientist and mathematicians to investigate...

None of the religions teach

- Hate your higher being you ascribe to as much as you can
- Hate others and bid them ill so you'll prosper...

Seems like a lot of what people understand about religions comes from others who don't understand religion

[Tsiyu]

121. Various people have various answers to age old questions

and each is sure their own answer is the correct one.

I know people who have spent years reading the same texts over and over and over, their "Word" becoming an obsession, parsing paragraphs down to phrases down to words down to letters to try to find the answers that will make them feel safe today.

"The Word" is then the foremost symbol of their particular deity. Their gods are books, pages and conflicting rules.

For those who feel out of control and for the unimaginative, this contradictory nature of their chosen "Word" becomes very agitating. Once again, to resolve the inner conflict, they bury their faces in their books, continually ignoring all of the life around them just to gain some smidgeon of a clue of what "god thinks."

Or they spend half their lives enmeshed in the drama and constant activity of a religious organisation, ignoring their own families and friends with constant volunteering and shaming and shunning family with insistence on rigid dogma and behavior that has nothing to do with today.

Imagine if all that time were spent visiting lonely people and planting gardens. Or if all that time were spent taking kids to museums and libraries and state parks. Or mowing elderly people's lawns and painting their porches. Or teaching teenagers carpentry or web design.

Imagine if they pulled their noses out of their books and spent all that futile word-crunching* instead in loving their neighbors as themselves, by doing something for their neighbors? You don't need to constantly reread what you're supposed to do if you're a good person.

As for answered prayers and the effects of any given faith system, if you trace your answered prayers to their source, people made things happen, your own will and actions made things happen.

WE can answer one another's prayers if we want to.




*The math is more valuable than any parsing of words as far as Christianity goes: Jesus spoke of caring for the poor hundreds of times. Never said a word about pot, birth control or gay people.

[Kelvin Mace]

55. Yes, kind of a stupid plan

Instead of appearing to the people in person in an undeniable god-like way and telling the people "Knock this shit off or I am turning this planet around NOW", he acts indirectly and metaphorically so that people can spend the next two millenia raping, murdering and enslaving each other over what he actually meant in his clusterfuck collection of Post-iT notes that is called "The Bible"

The rightness or wrongness of the death penalty, stripped from the context of supernatural text, boils down to:

Can it be applied justly and without error?

As humans are incapable of either meeting of these conditions, the death penalty is unethical, immoral, unjust and wrong.

[belzabubba333]

64. Can it be applied justly and without error? i believe it can and

that is the only time it should be used

[Kelvin Mace]

68. I would love to hear how you insure that

given human history's LONG record of killing innocent people.

Humans are fallible under the best of circumstances, and selfish, vile and vindictive under the worst. The best you can hope for, under the most favorable condition, is to lower the CHANCE an innocent person will die to some level which someone will decided is an acceptable number. To me, that number is ZERO. To anyone who advocates the death penalty I ask: What is the number of innocent people it is acceptable to murder in order for society to have its pound of flesh?

Round numbers please.

[belzabubba333]

72. was there any question of jeffery dahmer's guilt, ted bundy's , ted kazinsky's

What is the number of innocent people it is acceptable to murder in order for society to have its pound of flesh? that number is zero - we also have more advanced ways of establishing guilt

[Kelvin Mace]

78. Cameroun Todd Willingham

was considered just as guilty, and wasn't. Many people confess to crimes they did not commit under duress or deceit. I have seen people cleared of rape and murder thanks to DNA evidence and listened to outraged police/prosecutors/family members railing about how the innocent person "got off on a technicality".

Again, if you are going to have a death penalty you are going to eventually execute an innocent person regardless of safeguards, so again the question stands: How many innocent people is it acceptable to murder in order to be sure the guilty are punished?

[belzabubba333]

81. again the anwer is zero

[uponit7771]

45. Does not only apply to money, basically saying keep church out of state and vice versa ...

... leave the governments business to itself

[Kelvin Mace]

46. If you follow Christian dogma

the point of his accepting the death penalty was to absolve humanity its sins, not give them cart blanche to go on killing. As to "rendering unto Caesar", the context was taxes. He asked whose head appeared on the coin, the answer being Caesar's. So, give what belongs to Caesar (i.e. those things with his name/picture one them) back to him. Unless someone has a tattoo of Augustus on their ass, I don't think they can be said to become Caesar's property.

[uponit7771]

50. Render on to Caesar is a metaphor that can be applied across context of government...

... the completion of the parable is "... god unto god"

Keep the church out of government and vice versa...

[Kelvin Mace]

61. Well, there you run into a bit of a paradox

Because the people who are usually advocating the death penalty as being permitted also are the same folk telling me the Bible is the literal word of God. Something can be literal, or metaphorical, it cannot be both (beyond an abstruse academic sense of calling something a "literal metaphor&quot .

[uponit7771]

114. Most of them are being told what to think and not reading the book for themselves...

... most of them are conservatives...

Told what to think and conservative...

Seem to go hand in hand

[Kelvin Mace]

116. Well, I have read the book myself

and find it a pretty huge mess, a mass of contradictions featuring a "god" who is pretty much a psycho. The Gospels of the NT are a bit better, but still contradictory and ethically troubling. Jesus would have won more points with me if instead of saying (if he said it) "Slaves, obey your masters." He had said "Masters, free your slaves.".

If there is a god and he wishes me, or anyone else to follow his teachings then he needs to bloody well manifest his ass in person, in an undeniable god-like manner to the entire world, and tell us the rules. In any given week I can find a dozen different people claiming to speak for "God", all with different instructions, mostly conflicting.

Imagine if as a child, you never saw your parents. People told you they existed and they loved you, and that there were notes all over your refrigerator in different handwriting and languages, each with an instruction/rule on how to live your life. Now imagine there was an endless stream of people showing up on your doorstep telling you they had spoken to your folks, and each one of them bore a message, but the messages were disjointed, contradictory and some just plain weird and disturbing.

Personally, I would be on the phone to Child Protective Services to have that parent arrested for child neglect.

[closeupready]

117. That is a REALLY good metaphor.

Thanks.

[Kelvin Mace]

119. You're welcome

it has been pretty effective at reducing some folks to silence. It helps illustrate the vicious emotional cruelty they seem to overlook in their god.

[uponit7771]

118. I've read it with and without the understanding of dispensations and the illumination of the

... evil force which was only done in the NT.

Stark contrast

Also, languages were translated... and words added for English understanding in the bible...

For instance, the "Eye of A Needle" is an actual gate... it's not a metaphor...

For a camel to pass through they have to kneel down because the gate was only meant for people...

For a rich man to pass through they'd have to get off the camel all together...

There's no teachings against BEING rich just trying to work to get there and then not giving...

"If there is a god and he wishes me, or anyone else to follow his teachings then he needs to bloody well manifest his ass in person,.."

Humans (taking humans as science) would still deny and reject... It's human science... people are more apt to protect their way of thinking (conservatives come into mind) than to take things as fact even when presented... humans do all they can to protect their way of thinking.

I'm partly a scientist by trade, at the root of my thinking is probabilities

"..in an undeniable god-like manner to the entire world, and tell us the rules. In any given week I can find a dozen different people claiming to speak for "God", all with different instructions, mostly conflicting. "

i 100% agree... the bible itself for NT and some Old testament outline about 80%... the rest of it is grace relative to culture, environment etc...

The fact that you're willing to discuss any of this and ask that question means you're not bigoted or "open minded"...

Something the bible says is essential not only to learning but prosperity...

[Kelvin Mace]

120. Well my point was...

Humans (taking humans as science) would still deny and reject... It's human science... people are more apt to protect their way of thinking (conservatives come into mind) than to take things as fact even when presented... humans do all they can to protect their way of thinking.

It is up to the group/Supreme Being making the extraordinary claims to provide the extraordinary proof. I don't think that will happen because I don't believe the god these people describes exists. I am questioning the logic of having a supreme deity who expects unquestioning obedience to "His" commandments, yet fails to make his instructions clear, explain them in person, and in a manner which squelches disputes as to His right to make such demands by virtue of being our "creator" (not that such status would warrant obedience in any case, given the irrational and immoral demands being made).

Any logical and rational being would understand this as a reasonable expectation. If the being views it as unreasonable, then it is safe to say that such a being is not of sound mind. The evidence of mental illness is especially prevalent in the Old Testament actions of "God".

[el_bryanto]

7. Well I think it just goes to show that all Christians are hypocrites. nt

[Maedhros]

87. Did you forget the sarcasm tag?

It goes to show that a subset of Christians are hypocrites.

The logic would be:

IF Christ's teaching forbids the death penalty.
AND Some Christians support the death penalty.
THEN Some Christians are not following Christ's teaching (i.e. are hypocrites)

A conclusion that "All Christians are not following Christ's teaching" would be illogical.

[el_bryanto]

88. I think you are missing the point.

Obviously Christians are hypocritical monsters - everybody at DU accepts that. This is just an example of how awful Christians and other believers are. You don't want to be wasting your time over the specifics - just remember - Christians and other believers are hypocritical monsters.

Bryant

[Maedhros]

89. Ah - so the sarcasm tag WAS missing. [n/t]

[Nye Bevan]

9. "Thou shalt not kill" has no exceptions AFAIK

and that is one of the Ten Commandments that folk who like the death penalty tend to want to display on public land.

[PeaceNikki]

20. That's not exactly true. It really is "You shall not murder"

(Hebrew לֹא תִּרְצָח lo tirṣaḥ )

Murder is different than kill.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill

According to the Priestly Code of the Book of Numbers, killing anyone outside the context of war with a weapon, or in unarmed combat, is considered retzach, but if the killing is accidental, the accused must not leave the city, or he will be considered guilty of intentional murder. The Bible never uses the word retzach in conjunction with war.

The act of slaying itself, regardless of questions of bloodguilt, is expressed with the verb n-k-h "to strike, smite, hit, beat, slay, kill". This verb is used of both an Egyptian slaying an Israelite slave and of Moses slaying the Egyptian in retaliation in Exodus 2:11-12. The Covenant Code and Holiness Code both prescribe the death penalty for people that commit n-k-h.

Another verb meaning "to kill, slay, murder, destroy, ruin" is h-r-g, used of Cain slaying Abel in Genesis 4:8. When Cain is driven into exile, complaining that "every one that findeth me shall slay me" in Genesis 4:14, he again uses this verb (h-r-g).

The commandment against murder can be viewed as a legal issue governing human relationships, noting that the first five commandments relate strongly to man's duty to God and that the latter five commandments describe duties toward humans.[9][10] The commandment against murder can also be viewed as based in respect for God himself. Since man is made in God's image, the shedding of innocent blood is viewed as a direct offense against the Creator.

They believe it is justified killing due consequence for crime.

The Torah and Hebrew Bible made clear distinctions between the shedding of innocent blood and killing as the due consequence of a crime. A number of sins were considered to be worthy of the death penalty including murder,[21] incest,[22] bearing false witness on a capital charge,[23] adultery,[24] idolatry,[25] having sexual relations with a member of the same sex, etc.[16]

For example, the Exodus narrative describes the people as having turned to idolatry with the golden calf while Moses was on the mountain receiving the law from God. When Moses came down, he commanded the Levites to take up the sword against their brothers and companions and neighbors. The Levites obeyed and killed about three thousand men who had sinned in worship of the golden calf. As a result, Moses said that the Levites had received a blessing that day at the cost of son and brother.[26] On a separate occasion, a blasphemer was stoned to death because he blasphemed the name of the LORD with a curse.[27]

The Hebrew Bible has many other examples of sinners being put to death as due consequence for crimes. Achan is put to death by Joshua because he caused defeat of Israel’s army by taking some of the plunder and hiding it in his tent.[28][29] David ordered that an Amalekite be put to death because he claimed to have killed King Saul.[30] In his charge to his son Solomon, King David ordered him to deal with the bloodguilt of Joab, who had murdered Abner and Amasa.[31] Solomon ordered that Joab be killed:

Strike him down and bury him, and so clear me and my father's house of the guilt of the innocent blood that Joab shed. The LORD will repay him for the blood he shed, because without the knowledge of my father David he attacked two men and killed them with the sword. Both of them—Abner son of Ner, commander of Israel's army, and Amasa son of Jether, commander of Judah's army—were better men and more upright than he. May the guilt of their blood rest on the head of Joab and his descendants forever. But on David and his descendants, his house and his throne, may there be the LORD's peace forever.

—1 Kings 2:31-33 (NIV)

[riqster]

32. Fascinating!

[LanternWaste]

54. Textual criticism, and dynamic and formal translations are one of the major reasons I rarely discuss

Textual criticism, and dynamic and formal translations are one of the major reasons I rarely discuss history beyond the 100 year mark-- as most people are simply unaware of it; and its effects on the primary and secondary sources can be far more nuanced than one post will allow.

[FSogol]

11. The Duality of Man

From Full Metal Jacket:

Pogue Colonel: Marine, what is that button on your body armor?

Private Joker: A peace symbol, sir.

Pogue Colonel: Where'd you get it?

Private Joker: I don't remember, sir.

Pogue Colonel: What is that you've got written on your helmet?

Private Joker: "Born to Kill", sir.

Pogue Colonel: You write "Born to Kill" on your helmet and you wear a peace button. What's that supposed to be, some kind of sick joke?

Private Joker: No, sir.

Pogue Colonel: You'd better get your head and your ass wired together, or I will take a giant shit on you.

Private Joker: Yes, sir.

Pogue Colonel: Now answer my question or you'll be standing tall before the man.

Private Joker: I think I was trying to suggest something about the duality of man, sir.

Pogue Colonel: The what?

Private Joker: The duality of man. The Jungian thing, sir.

Pogue Colonel: Whose side are you on, son?

Private Joker: Our side, sir.

Pogue Colonel: Don't you love your country?

Private Joker: Yes, sir.

Pogue Colonel: Then how about getting with the program? Why don't you jump on the team and come on in for the big win?

Private Joker: Yes, sir.

Pogue Colonel: Son, all I've ever asked of my marines is that they obey my orders as they would the word of God. We are here to help the Vietnamese, because inside every gook there is an American trying to get out. It's a hardball world, son. We've gotta keep our heads until this peace craze blows over.

Private Joker: Aye-aye, sir.

[alc]

12. separation of church and state is one way explain the conflict

1) I'm a Christian. I wouldn't support the church enforcing the death penalty or support any church leaders who call for Christians to kill people who do XYZ. I would leave the church if leaders did want the church to enforce the death penalty.

2) I'm (also) a member of a society (with a government) that has decided that the death penalty is appropriate in some cases (as punishment and/or deterrent) with a well-defined legal process to protect the accused (e.g. I can't make the decision myself and kill the person I accuse)

My beliefs based on membership in group 1 may make me try to influence laws of group 2 away from the death penalty. But my membership in group 2 makes me accept the laws which that group has decided to enact. I can even support (not just accept) the laws if I believe the laws are the best for society even if they contradict my beliefs from group 1.

(I'm an atheist so the argument doesn't apply to me but I would accept the argument if a Christian made it.)

[pinto]

13. Poll: Younger Christians less supportive of the death penalty (RNS)

It's changing. ~ pinto

Poll: Younger Christians less supportive of the death penalty

Jonathan Merritt, January 17, 2014, Religion News Service

(RNS) One day after the state of Ohio executed a man for murder (Jan. 16), a new poll shows younger Christians are not as supportive of the death penalty as older members of their faith.

When asked if they agreed that “the government should have the option to execute the worst criminals,” 42 percent of self-identified Christian boomers, born between 1946 and 1964, said “yes.” Only 32 percent of self-identified Christian millennials, born between 1980 and 2000, said the same thing.

The poll conducted by Barna Group this past summer and released to Religion News Service Friday, surveyed 1,000 American adults and has a margin of error of plus or minus 2.6 percentage points.

It showed an even sharper difference in support for the death penalty among “practicing Christians,” which Barna defined as those who say faith is very important to their lives and have attended church at least once in the last month. Nearly half of practicing Christian boomers support the government’s right to execute the worst criminals, while only 23 percent of practicing Christian millennials do.

Other polling organizations such as Gallup, show similar generational trends among Americans in general.

Heather Beaudoin, national organizer for Equal Justice USA, a national organization working to reform the criminal justice system, said the Barna research confirms what she sees: a growing desire among younger Christians to abolish the death penalty.

http://www.religionnews.com/2014/01/17/among-us-christians-declining-support-death-penalty/

[DawgHouse]

14. Because... love the sinner, hate the sin.

If you execute a murderer, it doesn't mean you don't love and forgive them. It just means they must be punished because they must reap what they have sown.

At least this is how it's was justified to me when I asked. But yeah, hypocrisy at its best, IMO.

[Bluenorthwest]

94. But that's not in their Bible, not at all. Not even close.

nt

[DawgHouse]

95. Some people take parts and pieces and try to make it fit their agenda. nt

[Sheepshank]

17. I used to be fb friends with a rabid christian

then she started in with the 2nd A misinterpreted crappola and posting pics of her gun and her bible. Way too nutty for me. Yet she found nothing at cross purposes about those pics. Like I said used to be friends...

[former9thward]

18. I come from a Christian background

and Christians are not pacifists (although a pacifist might be a Christian). I don't believe in turning cheeks. No evidence Christ was a pacifist. Are there any quotes from Christ about the death penalty? I am not a Bible scholar and I don't know but I have never heard them and the death penalty obviously existed in his day.

[closeupready]

19. Well then don't expect muslims to be, nor atheists, nor Bhuddists.

On the other hand, you are basically claiming to be Christian while stating you don't believe in turning cheeks.

This illustrates to me, further, that the double standard is alive and well -

Members of the most powerful religion in the world can arbitrarily decide what is acceptable and what is not, and shrug if there are objections.

Nice little gig you got going on there.

[former9thward]

25. Why in the world would I expect other religions to be pacifists?

No one is deciding what is "acceptable" except in dictatorships.

[closeupready]

29. Don't take everything so personally. That comment was general.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

26. John 8:7

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

[PeaceNikki]

30. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that public authority has the right & duty to.

Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. I used to be a Catholic.

Not a very good one but I was baptized and sometimes went to mass as a kid. I gave up on it when a priest gave me the "God works in mysterious ways" runaround.

Now, I'm not a very good Buddhist.

[PeaceNikki]

33. And I am a reformed Lutheran (WELS)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

38. My wife, after 70 years of being a Catholic is now a Quaker.

The Catholic positions on abortion, birth control, and homosexuality, (and, other dogma), finally got to be too much for her.

I've studied Christianity just out of curiosity to a great extent. Mostly the Jesus Movement and the history of Christianity and came away a great admirer of Jesus the man. He and the Buddha have a lot in common.

[closeupready]

39. You're a Lutheran, and I'm a confirmed Catholic, and you neglected

an important addendum issued by the Vatican, that stated that in the modern world the prison system is exceedingly secure, and that state of affairs DOES render the death penalty as unacceptable. I will find the dictum/pronouncement/whatever for you.

On edit, here (from 2001):

The Holy See has consistently sought the abolition of the death penalty and his Holiness Pope John Paul II has personally and indiscriminately appealed on numerous occasions in order that such sentences should be commuted to a lesser punishment, which may offer time and incentive for the reform of the guilty, hope to the innocent and safeguard the well-being of civil society itself and of those individuals who through no choice of theirs have become deeply involved in the fate of those condemmed to death.

The Pope had most earnestly hoped and prayed that a worldwide moratorium might have been among the spiritual and moral benefits of the Great Jubilee which he proclaimed for the Year Two Thousand, so that dawn of the Third Millennium would have been remembered forever as the pivotal moment in history when the community of nations finally recognised that it now possesses the means to defend itself without recourse to punishments which are "cruel and unnecessary". This hope remains strong but it is unfulfilled, and yet there is encouragement in the growing awareness that "it is time to abolish the death penalty".

It is surely more necessary than ever that the inalienable dignity of human life be universally respected and recognised for its immeasurable value. The Holy See has engaged itself in the pursuit of the abolition of capital punishment and an integral part of the defence of human life at every stage of its development and does so in defiance of any assertion of a culture of death.

Where the death penalty is a sign of desperation, civil society is invited to assert its belief in a justice that salvages hope from the ruin of the evils which stalk our world. The universal abolition of the death penalty would be a courageous reaffirmation of the belief that humankind can be successful in dealing with criminality and of our refusal to succumb to despair before such forces, and as such it would regenerate new hope in our very humanity.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/documents/rc_seg-st_doc_20010621_death-penalty_en.html

[PeaceNikki]

40. No, I am an atheist leaning agnostic.

[closeupready]

41. Okay, thanks - anyway, I posted the Vatican declaration on edit -

please read and retract your statement that the Catholic Church today supports the death penalty.

[PeaceNikki]

43. Super. Nah, I will leave it and your rebuttal to my statement there for the world to see.

I took my text from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (2267) - which has not, in fact, been updated. My statement still stands.

[pnwmom]

105. Your statement still stands: and your interpretation of the doctrine is still incorrect.

The Church does NOT support the death penalty, because it requires a condition that cannot be met: that there is no other way to keep society safe.

[nichomachus]

57. Once the police have caught someone and have him in custody

He's no longer an aggressor against "human life." So, the death penalty is no longer called for.

[PeaceNikki]

59. Agreed. I was quoting text from Catechism of the Catholic Church. I am 100% against DP. Always.

And I am an atheist leaning agnostic who was confirmed in the WELS church many moons ago.

[pnwmom]

106. That is the correct text but you are misinterpreting the clear meaning.

The death penalty is NOT the only way to keep society safe from a murderer; therefore the condition cannot be met and the death penalty cannot be morally justified.

[Kelvin Mace]

73. This would be the same Catholic Church

that existed contemporaneously with Mussolini.

See, this is where I have a problem. They get all tangled up in words and wind up siding with "the unjust aggressor".

[pnwmom]

103. Read what you just wrote. The Church effectively OPPOSES the death penalty,

because the conditions are so stringent they cannot be met.

Putting someone to death is NOT the "only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the aggressor." The state can incarcerate anyone for life, so there is no modern justification for the death penalty.

[Man from Pickens]

23. They're not really Christians

much of what calls itself Christianity in the US is actually a stunted form of Luciferianism.

[A HERETIC I AM]

48. Bollocks.

But I will give you this;

It might be more accurate to call the religion in question "Paulianity" or "Peterianity" as the writings of those two seem to be taken so seriously, particularly the anti woman bits.

[treestar]

109. This is true.

It is a label they use - what they really mean is white - European culture's religion is Christianity. Sometimes they admit it, using "Judeo Christian" culture.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. Rather than turning "the other cheek", they turn a blind eye.

[SheilaT]

27. I am utterly opposed to the death penalty, and I'm not a Christian.

I'm somewhere between an atheist and an agnostic.

I think a lot of people who are Christian believers find it relatively easy to support a death penalty because the religion has a very long history of torture, killing, and murder done in its name.

[riqster]

35. Such people focus on worshipping a magical Christ.

As to following the teachings of Jesus, not so much.

[Prism]

44. The Catholic Church is fairly against it.

I'm anti-death penalty, for the record.

The Catholic Church still debates capital punishment, but the idea that had seemed to be the mainstream thought until the end of the 20th Century was that the death penalty should be used only when there was a uniquely powerful need to protect humanity from an individual's crimes.

With the rise of the Culture of Life ethic, we see more and more Catholic leadership oppose capital punishment, pointing to the ease with which innocents have been executed. John Paul II opposed capital punishment on those grounds, and in the past 20 years, the Church has grown pretty anti-DP.

So, that's where they are.

But even then, at least Western Christian nations haven't been hanging gay teenagers in quite awhile, eh?

[closeupready]

52. Which Western nations are Christian?

[Prism]

75. Most of them, unofficially

And by Christian, I mean in terms of cultural predominance. The West, in general, is a Judeo-Christian construct with those cultural sensibilities, even if the exact religious expression of it has waned over time.

[ladjf]

49. For starters, many so-called Christians are not familiar with the New Testament.

Many others just don't care what Jesus said if it conflicts with their personal agenda.

[2banon]

56. I'd say this belongs in the Religious Forum.

not in GD. Thanks.

[seveneyes]

58. When you believe in man made fairy tales, anything is possible

And your example is but one of many, and most all religions have their own irrational rationalizations to add to them.

[JI7]

62. this is regularly brought up when discussing things like social welfare

The point is not lost at all.

How some Christians care more about whether some clerk at checkout says merry Christmas or happy holidsys instead of doing anything for those in need .

[KamaAina]

63. How can Christians support war?

Back when Gulf War I started, I spent my Saturday mornings defending an abortion clinic from a small pack of rabid anti's. And sure enough, that Saturday, they were all rah-rah pro-war. So I hit them with the Beatitudes: "Blessed are the peacemakers."

[dembotoz]

74. folks can justify ANYTHING no news there

[KG]

77. religion, lol

[elehhhhna]

80. he died for our sins. like a get outta jail free card. i am serious.

[elleng]

85. Can't, logically,

but that assumes 'logic.'

[Agnosticsherbet]

90. There is no single hard definition of Christain. The Klu Klux Klann is Christain organization.

Their members attend church, worship Jesus, and think anyone not White are lesser beings, and they have have been known to dynamite black churches.

Some Christians think abortion is acceptable. Some Christians kill other Christians in churches for performing abortions.

Some Christians are pacifists who oppose all forms of violence. Others are not.

Some Christians believe the bible written in English is the literal word of God that is completely clear and has no contradictions. Some Christians see that work as having many contradictions but believe it remains an important moral document.

Each church as a set of doctrines and dogma that share some things with other churches but not all things.

Saying Christians can not support the death penalty is taking a cookie cutter view of Christianity that is way too oversimplified when discussing a system of belief with almost two thousand years of history.

[el_bryanto]

91. Yes - but that's the point you see?

I mean why deal with complexity when you can point your finger and mock?

Bryant

[Agnosticsherbet]

92. Yes, pointing the finger and mocking is not a valid method of critique of a anything.

Never-the-less, it seems to be fairly common.

[Bluenorthwest]

96. Trying to explain how religious people of any religion can maintain the vast hypocrisy required to

be very religious is a fool's game. I would recommend asking this question of Christians instead of about them, I am against the death penalty and also opposed to all religions so trying to explain their mindset is pretty difficult, they think I'm a heretical homosexual pig dog or whatnot.

[librechik]

97. hypocrisy

apparently invented the same time as Christianity.

[el_bryanto]

98. Yes- that's why only Christians are hypocritical nt.

[closeupready]

99. Yes, that, OR, like going from cave etchings to Van Gogh, elevating to an art form

the verbal deceit known as sophistry is something which some of them certainly played a part in, without question, as an organized human group acting within socially defined parameters.

[librechik]

113. establishing a dogma will automatically generate heretics and hypocrisy and sophistry

humans are just averse to living inside a box!

[hunter]

100. Many Christians are already living in Christian hell...

... they just don't know it yet.

What is time to God?

[hrmjustin]

101. I am a Christian and do not support the death penalty.

While I think some deserve it, it is still morally wrong.

Considering the man I and other Christians worship was executed by the state, we should be against it.

As an aside I think the religion stuff should go back into the religion room but I think this is perfectly ok for GD.

[GeorgeGist]

102. I stand with ...

Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy and Easter Bunny.

[liberalhistorian]

104. I am a Christian and a student at a

liberal, progressive, social-justice-oriented seminary and I, and the vast majority of my fellow students as well as the faculty, most assuredly do NOT support the death penalty. Many of us actively work against it, including with Sister Helen Prejean's (the nun of Dead Man Walking) organization. Some are chaplains for death row inmates and prisoners, or plan to be.

Jesus himself suffered the death penalty. The book Jesus on Death Row, by a Christian law professor (and former federal prosecutor) at Baylor University Law School details the similarities between his death row case and our modern practices (including use of paid informants and treating their word as, well, "gospel", prosecutors and trials that withhold exculpatory evidence, etc.). It's a truly fascinating read that I've used as a resource for some coursework.

[quaker bill]

107. we don't support the death penalty.

[aikoaiko]

108. Cause Jesus was executed and that turned out OK for him

Maybe . Just throwing the idea out there.

[spanone]

110. 'thou shalt not kill' no asterisk that i'm aware of.