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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy Women Stay Quiet at Work
YEARS ago, while producing the hit TV series “The Shield,” Glen Mazzara noticed that two young female writers were quiet during story meetings. He pulled them aside and encouraged them to speak up more.
Watch what happens when we do, they replied.
Almost every time they started to speak, they were interrupted or shot down before finishing their pitch. When one had a good idea, a male writer would jump in and run with it before she could complete her thought.
Sadly, their experience is not unusual.
We’ve both seen it happen again and again. When a woman speaks in a professional setting, she walks a tightrope. Either she’s barely heard or she’s judged as too aggressive. When a man says virtually the same thing, heads nod in appreciation for his fine idea. As a result, women often decide that saying less is more.
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The long-term solution to the double bind of speaking while female is to increase the number of women in leadership roles. (As we noted in our previous article, research shows that when it comes to leadership skills, although men are more confident, women are more competent.) As more women enter the upper echelons of organizations, people become more accustomed to women’s contributing and leading. Professor Burris and his colleagues studied a credit union where women made up 74 percent of supervisors and 84 percent of front-line employees. Sure enough, when women spoke up there, they were more likely to be heard than men. When President Obama held his last news conference of 2014, he called on eight reporters — all women. It made headlines worldwide. Had a politician given only men a chance to ask questions, it would not have been news; it would have been a regular day.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/11/opinion/sunday/speaking-while-female.html
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chervilant
(8,267 posts)or faster than your male colleagues. You might be labeled "arrogant," "know-it-all," and "uppity."
Skittles
(171,704 posts)you have to be twice as good to be considered half as good
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)I was told I was "arrogant" and need to step back and let someone else take a leadership role.
leftyladyfrommo
(20,005 posts)Boy, that's a knick name you don't want to get.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)AND worse.
However, men do not have a monopoly on name calling. Some women have learned to play this game. I was called a "fembot" and a "corporate whore" by some of the women who lived in the same small apartment complex I occupied after my divorce.
I think a primary difference that should be considered is that when I had a dialogue with the women in my complex, a true aha moment for us all, we became great friends. I've yet to have a conversation with a guy in a similar context that has had a positive outcome. In fact, the last guy upon whose toes I inadvertently trod orchestrated my wrongful termination.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)or just never in the workplace? Or something else?
chervilant
(8,267 posts)I said, "I've yet to have a conversation with a guy in a similar context that has had a positive outcome." That means that, when I've had guys get all defensive and run their P&C gambits when interacting with me -- calling me sexist names, for instance - attempts on my part to rectify the situation have fallen flat. I've found that men who are sexist, or misogynists, are stubbornly entrenched in their bigotry.
I have had my fair share of guy friends in corporate milieus. My guy friends tend not to patronize or condescend.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)someone had literally no friends of the opposite sex.
I do understand your intolerance for men who play power games. Unfortunately, that almost is a requirement for climbing the corporate ladder. I knew a few VPs who were such political animals that they wrecked the company to show how badass they were. The ones who are there to work hard and eke out a living almost never get anywhere.
spooky3
(38,632 posts)By a guy who never challenged men in authority no matter what they said or did.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)did you see the things that were said about the day that Obama only called on women journalist...OMG you would have thought men were losing their journalist jobs to women or something so many men were all upset over this...it was breathtaking to see even HERE!
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Interestingly with mostly old/former DUers.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)this is what its like EVERYDAY!
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)It was just one guy vs like 10 of us women. He's a close friend (and a reporter) but I didn't feel bad when he was getting beat up about it.
Men really REALLY cannot understand what it's like for a woman in business.
Really.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)"You understand that you an never really understand what it is like to be pregnant right"? And they understand that and agree....then I tell them...nor can you ever understand what it is like everyday for a Black person in America...or a woman...etc etc etc...but somehow....they think they know.....its amazing really...
tclambert
(11,193 posts)Sometimes the larger, violent ones form swarms that fight with each other, causing thousands, even millions of fatalities, all while the smaller ones try to hide, yet sometimes become unintended victims.
And the way they reproduce! One species implants something in the other. Then a parasite grows inside the host, eventually bursting out, causing extreme pain to the host, sometimes fatal injury. Yet the host ends up nurturing the larval form that emerges, while the other species mostly sits back and watches TV.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)demwing
(16,916 posts)Smaller and nicer, or larger, parasitic, and violent?
I tried to tell from your post, and couldn't.
tclambert
(11,193 posts)I consider it a kind of compliment that you couldn't tell. I was trying to imagine what aliens might think of us. Somehow I don't think they would take a very positive view of us males. They might try to exterminate us in order to free the smaller, nicer species from our oppression and violence. Still, we're useful for reaching things on high shelves.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)"you can be replaced by a machine in the off position"!
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Nailed it.
I'd have been better off if I could move a little closer to the Lesbian side of the spectrum.
Oh, wait, I'm a psycho-magnet anyway. My motto: "Cluster B? Come see me!" 
I'd laugh if it weren't so true. 
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Hope I find someone capable of being in a good, positive, loving, nurturing rship ! Sooner rather than later...Sigh. This is such a big life-long *thing* for me.
I'm sorry you've got similar karma!
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)low self-esteem maybe?
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)I have CPTSD, lonnnng history of abuse and trauma from a bunch of different experiences. My mother was cluster B, so among other things, it looks familiar to me. Too high tolerance for unacceptable behaviors.
Yeah, it's not too good for self-esteem, either.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)are we related?
Wow....I'm not the only one!
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)There's a great book called Understanding the Borderline Mother.
I had a bunch of other shit too.....
I hope you've found support to recover! (I'm in a closed PTSD group on fb. I'm getting a much better understanding of it.)
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)but she spends (and likes it) nearly all of her time alone...she HATES being around people...etc etc.....we have always joked "its Mom's world" because you have no choice..To her,.she's always thought the idea of talking to a doctor about her "issues" a bizarre idea. Even her mother said she "was always odd". She has self medicated all her life as well....but always alone..
I have been seeing an great therapist for good while now....I found a great one and it has changed my life and helped tremendously...
Vattel
(9,289 posts)wastes are expelled from another stinky one on the other end? Disgusting!
Triana
(22,666 posts)...well - everything. I hear them all the time confidently saying: "Oh yea, that will work. I KNOW it can."
Often, it turns out -- it CAN'T and it doesn't. It's usually something technical. Often, it's something a female was assigned to "make" work. The male insists it can and that it's been done before (by one of his male colleagues)! Sometimes (too often) - it turns out it has NOT been done (after checking around) and can't work that way.
And - if the female can't figure it out (either) - SHE is stupid!
Male assuredness sometimes astounds me - what they THINK they know or CLAIM they know - about technology, women (and their minds and bodies), people of color. You name it.
In technical fields, men mentor and help each other. If a rare woman enters into the environment - she's on her own. Sending an email to a technical mailing list often results in one of two things: no response at all, or deliberate misinformation or only partial information, or some snarky response that indirectly alludes to her inferior intellect. I've HEARD men say: "she should fucking know her shit if she wants to be here and if she doesn't *I'M* not going to help her!" If it were a male colleague, he'd be provided whatever information he needed and welcomed into the fold. Subtle collusion against women - particularly in technical fields - of the nature I've described herein - is very common.
In meetings, women are less likely to boast that they know about something and huck it up with counterparts. They'll keep their mouth shut until they're relatively certain they have something of value to add and relatively certain that any info they provide is more than likely correct. BEFORE speaking. They're a little different that way.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)its unreal....You describe it to a T! If you stumble at the start of a job....trying to learn the ropes all on your own...then you get treated as if you are inept...not just trying to figure it all out on your own. "You don't know where the flibbertygibbet flarckensnark file loads the thingamabob pramister ramblydat account number?" (meanwhile no one gave you the password you are going to need to access the Flarckensnark anyways). Then a few weeks or months later...some dude gets hired.....and you see the very opposite happen! You think..."damn nobody showed me where the thingamabob pramister ramblydat account was loaded"!!! Suddenly they are all buddy buddy with the new guy and everyone goes out of their way to make sure he has everything he needs...fawns all over him....they virtually roll out the red carpet for the guy...and you wonder...."what am I chopped liver here?
tblue37
(68,436 posts)of being women is like and how we should understand it.
There are a few guys here on DU who will step into certain kinds of threads to explain to women that we are simply not understanding what feminism really is and therefore not practicing it properly.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)The reason why so many are on my IL...
demwing
(16,916 posts)Can black men relate, for example, to hispanic women?
What about women? Can a white woman relate to the lives of black men?
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)Our boss does those 'subtle' things constantly. I have no doubt he has no clue what he is doing, but to me it's so obvious. I have a half dozen stories that happened this month alone. It's frustrating to see it and feel powerless to change it.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)orchestrated my wrongful termination because I had the TEMERITY to address his virulent racism in the workplace! He had retired and--lacking the gonads to do it himself--pressured my new boss to fire me. (The new boss has been friends with the old boss since he was a child.)
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)safely address just about anything one-on-one behind closed doors, but airing dirty laundry in a meeting or with others present isn't taken kindly to - by both male it female bosses. No one in a position of authority likes it when a subordinate or even a peer calls them out in public.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)No one else was present when I addressed his virulent racism.
(I've found that haters are gonna hate -- and many haters are quite self-righteous about their world view.)
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)boss in a meeting, and it never ended well for them.
You'd think it would be obvious...
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and use it for your own platform. More than one woman in business realizes this, and it is particularly handy when you have a woman in a senior position at the meeting.
I'm about as afraid of being labeled a "harpy" or a "shrew" as I am about being labeled as a woman that knows how to accomplish things. I welcome those labels. It lets the uninitiated know that being cocky looks stupid, and it reminds those that have tangled with me before know that I'm in no way soft.
Calm, cool and direct is the best way to deal with overly emotional males, and believe me, they get extremely emotional when their dominance is smacked down. It rather delights me. Once they get a grip on themselves, most tend to become embarrassed when they realize how stupidly they behaved. Try it ladies.
A lot of men like to portray women as gossips, but many men are the worst gossips in the universe in their quest to rock the boat for social gain, and use falsehoods that they imagine to be true or think that they can pass off to be true to do so. Does that sound like people that aren't overly emotional, petty, and pissy or am I imagining things?
Be careful how you characterize others, because looking in the mirror can suck.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)realize that a lot of it is projection, and it works for you 
.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)women get, and how ill received "aggressive" women generally are in the workplace.
While I am certain you walked a thin line and did an exceptional job, since you came out a winner... the expectation that you should have to do this is what is wrong with this scenario. As is the gaslightish assertion that this is "projection". Prianka has posted some excellent studies on the subject- women's careers also suffer if they are considered too agressive. Glad you were able to buck the trend, but you are likely exceptional.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)But I believe in the work that I do, stand by it, and ... yeah it is tiring at times. It pays off over the years, though.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)As a regular thing, it's not a level playing field.
A few women get to be as tough as men and people fear or respect them... But a lot of women are demonized for the exact same behavior.
I'm glad it's working out for you!
madinmaryland
(65,729 posts)I am probably oblivious (no I am oblivious) to what is happening. I am in a male dominated industry and rarely even see women in the workplace.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and I don't think I would be successful in it if I didn't speak up with calm, reasonable and forthright behavior. I certainly will talk down to anyone at the same level I am in that talks down to me, because talking down to others is an attempt to establish dominance, which has nothing to do with leadership.
Heck, I've talked down to a manager of another section that was trying the dominance thing. Worked quite well. It confused the heck out of him at the time, but he treats me as a equal (I'm not management), because he can't seem to establish dominance.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)You have to pay attention to the dominance games, and you have to be willing to get in their face.
But I don't encourage anybody to get involved in that shit unless they care enough to fight it out, it's an ugly and demeaning business. It has much to do with what its wrong with American business, that obsession with whom gets to be the boss.
I am reminded of a young, female accounting instructor I had once informing me very seriously that I was going to have to compete. She was right, in her way, but I found it funny she thought I would need to be told.
leftyladyfrommo
(20,005 posts)when they are getting ready to go into a big meeting?
I asked a male friend of mine about this once and he knew exactly what I was talking about. He said, "Oh, you mean like this?" and got up and started walking like I had seen.
It's hilarious.
PasadenaTrudy
(3,998 posts)and puff out their chests. Like roosters 
tclambert
(11,193 posts)unless they have previously been the victim of violence. They act like they think it's unladylike for a woman to learn to defend herself, until the woman says, "I was raped" or "I was abused." Then people act like "Oh, okay, that's understandable then." Why isn't it okay to learn how to defend herself before she needs to defend herself, but okay after it's too late?
Nobody questions men's interest in the martial arts. No one thinks it's ungentlemanly. Of course men want to know how to fight better. They're men. QED.
annm4peace
(6,119 posts)Either for Fortune 500 companies or the Federal Government
She said they do several thousand a year and over 3 billion dollars a year.
and in 10 years she said she has done only about 20 loans where the borrower being relocated is a woman.
She says it has been only about 10% of loans.
She has done only 3 loans for black women.
No women with Latino names
Just sayin
leftyladyfrommo
(20,005 posts)They can't break up their whole family and relocate. Especially if the husband has a good job, too.
I did know one woman who did move around with each promotion. Her family had to relocate with her with each move. I guess they made it work. But I don't think most women would move their families like that.
spooky3
(38,632 posts)In professional positions do not have families; those with spouses/partners can get career assistance from the employer offering relocation assistance to the woman; and, more and more these days, women's career advancement is just as important for the family as men's.
What's different is in this economy companies are less likely to pay for relocation than in the past.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)They moved 3K miles.
That is what happens IF the positions are offered. There is no excuse.
NewJeffCT
(56,848 posts)We've relocated 3 times over the past 12 years, all because of my wife's jobs. And, her former BFF also relocated for her current job even though her husband had a job that paid him 6 figures. (My wife & her friend had a falling out a few years ago) I've interviewed for several jobs over the years where we would have relocated for my job, but none of those jobs ever worked out, or I did not have interest in the location. (Also, my wife did interview for a few other jobs that would have required us to relocate as well, but those did not work out, either.) I also know that the CFO (a woman) of my wife's current company was relocated down to Maryland last year for a new job not far from Washington DC.
Oh, we would have relocated another time (to New Jersey) for my wife's job, but could not find anything close to what we had in CT in terms of a nice newer home in a good neighborhood with excellent schools.
sinkingfeeling
(57,835 posts)felt the relo company low-balled my house offers. But with the last move, I had two semi trailers of goods moved and paid for by the company!
flamingdem
(40,891 posts)no one says anything or even feels worse about the barging male. So why should they change their behavior?
snot
(11,804 posts)
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts) 
Orrex
(67,111 posts)k/r
Jamastiene
(38,206 posts)Women have to go ahead and be aggressive right out the gate, or we will never stand a chance. Assertive is usually considered better, on paper, but, for a woman to succeed in a world where the men will not listen to us, we have to skip that and be aggressive. That is because assertive is not what runs the business world. Aggressive is. It is the only way to knock down the obstacle of men trying to be alpha males and dominate us.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)Both in professional meetings of any kind: staff, committee, and departmental; and in parent conferences.
It's always been this way.
CrispyQ
(40,969 posts)It was immediately shot down as being too simple. The next week, one of the men proposed the same exact solution & it was accepted and he was praised. I said, "Oh, the same exact thing I proposed last week, but was shot down as too simple, is now the solution?" Not one man in the room remembered my proposal from the week before. At first I thought they were lying, but I realized that no, they really did not remember what I'd said because they never really listened to what I said. They just shot it down & then it stunk into the subconscious of one of them & viola! Next week a man comes up with a great solution & the dumb woman tries to take credit for it. 
librechik
(30,957 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I used to think it was just subconscious, but that's not always the case. When you compete with men, some of them are very calculated and manipulative with these behaviors.
I had a particularly bad one who was nipping at my heels constantly. He did almost no work, but wanted my (higher level) job desperately. My boss could see things were getting hostile- he had been bad mouthing me, and I got wind of it. I said, How about you pay attention- he interupts, disagrees, then repackages everything I say as if he thought of it. He will contribute nothing but putting me down, and passing my ideas off as his own. You want to bet on it? Yeah, I won that one- and since my boss lost fifty bucks, Mr Phony Ass started to irritate him too. I made it matter to him, ha ha.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)says the same thing and these reasonable men then thank that man, for making them think.
i have gone the step further, saying. look. an example of what we are talking about, women being treated differently when speaking.
now. a couple men said, ya.... what is that? lol. but fool the others who refuse to acknowledge. it is too fuggin' obvious and consistent and thru out womens life, for us not to know better.
Starry Messenger
(32,381 posts)This dynamic plays out in lots of different settings.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)cannot say the w word (women), have to be feminine cause of our roles we dictate by society. inherently we are suppose to be timid cause after all the testosterone is so powerful, that their role is aggressive ergo ours must be timid. but, women are not inherently timid. we are socially conditioned to be, but not biologically like science wants to give us.
so. some women are aggressive and some are not, like men. not a gender specific character. it is what society rejects, reinforcing the timid, the nice, the .....
in any study you see in the work force, when women act no different than men, just not allowing the invasion of space, like men spreading out when sitting down, dominence and control. when met head on. .... a woman is a bitch and hence where the real problem with the words, is. that affects our everyday living in a patriarchal society, that affects our wage.
i could go on in conversation, but will leave it here. it is all connected. we clearly see. and that is what is ultimately so fearful for too many and resulting in the hate.
leftyladyfrommo
(20,005 posts)the good ole boys club were absolutely awful bosses. They treated their employees like dirt.
The women who were strong enough to just be themselves and manage well were often wiped out when the no holds barred competition stuff started.
Women need to start their own companies.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)
liberalhistorian
(20,905 posts)and have personally experienced the truth of this as well as seeing it firsthand, I also have to say that I have never once had a good female boss and I have seen women bosses pull this shit- treat the women under them like shit while fawning all over the men. And every time I've ever been fired or had problems with a job, it was by, or because of, a woman boss.
leftyladyfrommo
(20,005 posts)But the two most vile bosses I ever had were both women and they were awful. But truthfully, I think they both may just have been sociopaths and sociopaths get along a lot better in this work place.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Like you, female bosses have been a different story. I've had 4 in my career so I'm certainly not making a blanket statement. However in my experiences, these women were not supportive of me and did whatever they could to keep me from advancing. I guess they saw me as a threat, as competition. I had one who was outright pathological about trying to take me down.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i have had reasonable bosses of both gender that are simply doing their job and asking the same of me.
CrispyQ
(40,969 posts)Tough & very exacting, but also very appreciative of hard work. Two years in a row she gave me a 10% raise while most of the company was getting 3%. I designed a database for the contracts on my own time. It was fun for me & made my job easier, so I didn't mind. When she saw it she said, "You'd be a good programmer. Have you ever thought of that?" Next thing I know, I gave my notice & went back to school. She went to a different company & when I got my certification, her IT manager hired me for a contract project. That was in 1997 & I still code today. I doubt I would have thought of programming, had it not been for her comment.
I've had mostly good bosses, both men & women.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)I've had one sociopath, a male.
I'm a male.
RockaFowler
(7,429 posts)I made a comment about how to make something better here at the station. I was basically laughed at. Then someone above me said the exact same thing (a man of course) and he was praised for that decision. I get laughed at - he got praised.
Oh and I gave the Upper Management my idea to change our program lineup. I was laughed out of the room. Then 2 weeks later they decided to use my idea. I did not get the recognition I deserved for this decision. Guess what - the show is now 120% higher in the ratings than the previous show. I have to toot my own horn to let everyone know that this was my decision. No-one else even recognizes it. Now our revenue is up in the time period. But again if I don't let people know that they would never know that it was because I came up with it.
It happens everyday around here. TV is still a man's game and they rarely listen to women let alone give jobs to us based on our abilities or education.
leftyladyfrommo
(20,005 posts)It's like that everywhere.
I just think women need to start their own businesses and network with other women that like to do business in the same manner.
RockaFowler
(7,429 posts)That's why it's a little disappointing that Oprah didn't really do that with her network. Heck the person in charge of programming on Lifetime is a MAN. I just don't understand it sometimes!!
spooky3
(38,632 posts)We should absolutely NOT concede ground, or business will never improve.
That's like saying because big business is hostile to people of color or people with disabilities, they should simply go away and start little business. New businesses have a high rate of failure; they pay less than big business for the same work; and it's hard for women to get venture capital.
The laws are there for challenges but enforcement $ are way too low, the courts are hostile, esp the USSC. That has to change.
Not much good will come in the current congress but 2016 is not far off.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)from what i have seen in the last couple years. women challenge this. that is the start. this conversation is an example.
spooky3
(38,632 posts)What's new is that people think they've gone away, but these authors cite evidence that the tendencies still exist.
librechik
(30,957 posts)Obama did that deliberately, because someone pointed out that the week before he had called on zero women.
Male reporters still got mad at the all-female day.
CrispyQ
(40,969 posts)
I wonder if it was before or after the dared to put toys considered for boys under the girls Christmas tree?
I complain a lot about this president, but not at all about his attitude toward women.
pnwest
(3,466 posts)behind me that said, "Do you want to talk to the man in charge, or the woman who runs the place?". They never knew I wasn't joking.
niyad
(132,440 posts)Response to pnwest (Reply #51)
Post removed
DLevine
(1,791 posts)
Doc Holliday
(719 posts)....but calling them "ladies" would be an exaggeration. (I was there; you weren't.)
Besides, what's "disgusting" about accurate labeling?
DLevine
(1,791 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)niyad
(132,440 posts)of colour-coding the accounts to make it easier to sort them out, etc. her boss shoots down the idea. a week later, she hears him being praised by HIS boss for the idea of colour-coding the accounts.
ssdd all the way around.
RockaFowler
(7,429 posts)And that movie was over 30 years ago
So sad
niyad
(132,440 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)men are forced to accept the fact that women are actually their bosses, and they can't bully everyone into treating them as leaders when they have not earned it. I think it's a fairly conscious decision, to trample others whenever you feel like you can get away with it. I have managed a lot of women and men, and the men tend to be a lot more sneaky and political- ass kissing on one hand, and talking shit behind your back on the other. I'm not sure I ever managed a man who didn't have his eye on my job more than the work that was right in front of him. It is an affront to to many guys- having a woman tell you what to do. I'd have to waste a lot of time massaging egos to keep them content.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 14, 2015, 02:11 PM - Edit history (1)
At least, they didn't do it after they figured out that it wouldn't fly. Most of the male managers were pretty liberal and that helped. I can think of two who were exceptions. One co-opted the ideas of his assistant every single time she spoke. Some of us got into the habit of agreeing with him by saying "I'm so glad you're in favor of {her} idea." He'd then acknowledge that she had said it but it somehow never penetrated his brain far enough for self-reflection. He did complain about working with so many women.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)but one of the bosses had a serious preference for working with men, he tended to hire inexperienced frat boy types and treat them like best friends and kind of relive his youth through them. This gave them a lot of confidence that they could get away with anything. It blew my mind how little some of them worked- trying to just delegate all THEIR work to other people, myself included- even thought I was their boss, LOL.
Everyone of them was lazy and incompetent- totally unwilling to learn the ropes, and just as lost as kittens. When I quit, one refused to do any training with me, and he already was an idiot. His strategy was to "charm" people into doing their work- and his. Becuse he had no idea how to do his job after six months. You can imagine how that worked out- lasted about 2-3 more months after screwing up some huge orders. HA.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And my old job doesn't exist anymore. Those guys managed to help kill the department, and they lost a lot of accounts.
But I didn't get fired and have to go work as a pizza boy like that moron. I'm in a much better place now. So, there is that.
RobinA
(10,478 posts)social services/medical workplace, I (a woman) am just as liable to be ignored or spoken over by a woman as by a man. I've never taken a poll, but it seems to be about even as to who will ignore me. There are definitely some women I encounter who will verbally shove a woman aside to listen to a man. Of course, when they want something done...
This is particularly true on the medical side of my work environment, however, I do find that medical people (not all of them) in my experience tend to be a rude and backstabbing bunch, both male or female. More so than either business or law, although business does give them a run for their money.
Blue_Tires
(57,596 posts)But I must say that as a male working in a female-dominated environment (education), the inverse is just as true...Of course we can debate all day whether my being marginalized is more closely related to my lesser standing versus my gender...
Flame away...
MindPilot
(12,693 posts)Trust me, nobody was quiet.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)for context. This happens really frequently when women are seriously outnumbered.
FYI: It's not always about you!
MindPilot
(12,693 posts)But you see, with my extraordinary white male powers (EWMP) even against almost insurmountable odds, I was able to make them all bend to my will.
It IS all about me! ME I TELL YOU! ME!
Seriously, yes, I did read the article, and I have seen that dynamic happen. Fortunately, I have not seen it for quite a while; I'm lucky to work in an environment that is fairly enlightened in that regard.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)so when I saw the new Twix Bites commercial about exactly this topic, I really couldn't laugh too much. Except for the eightes hair, LOL.
NewJeffCT
(56,848 posts)and just me as a guy, the women seemed to go out of their way to make me feel welcome and to listen to my opinion. Maybe I've just been lucky? Maybe because I started out of college at a large corporation that had over a 2:1 female to male ratio and a decent amount of at least mid-level managers that were women, which was rare in the late 80s/early 90s. But, I've never really been in a work environment where women were not able to speak out.
Heck, I even remember being the only guy at a PTA meeting several years back, and the women seemed to honestly listen to & consider my opinion - and, some of the women had pretty high level jobs (lawyer, engineer, a very charismatic high level project manager, actuarial director, etc)
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Years ago, when I started at this company there were mostly male managers. Our division manager- while nice enough- had a "pet hire" who had no experience at all and was very loud and coarse, making loads of gross misogynistic comments all day long. He was a huge suck up, so he'd immediately position himself as BFF to whoever the new manager was. He got sloppy, and started directing the comments to a female coworker who was more experienced and a much better employee. She asked around if people thought it was okay the way she was being spoken to, and no one was okay with it. Our manager did nothing when it was brought to her- he was her pet. Weeks later, we were treated to some really loud, gross and hateful stuff, and our manager was the only person laughing along. She noticed others were really bothered. I said I hoped the wrong person wouldn't walk in and overhear something like that.... That made her reassess the situation. He STFU after his boss realized she could suffer for tolerating it. Overnight the vibe changed, and Mr Silly stopped setting the tone. It will sound trivial to loads of people, but it made a huge difference. Constant disrespect wears on your morale.
NewJeffCT
(56,848 posts)but, glad the vibe changed that quickly. Did Mr. Silly last much longer after that?
I later moved on to another large corporation where most of the women in the area hated the guy that had come in as the new Corporate Controller a few months before I got hired. From what I heard, he looked down on women in the workplace, which I found to be an almost alien idea coming from a company that was fairly progressive in terms of hiring & promoting women and minorities (Not to denigrate all Mormons, but it might have had something to do with the fact he was a Mormon who had graduated from BYU many years earlier? I'm guessing he was late 50s in age in 2001?)
I remember that it seemed like after that, almost all the hires in the Corporate Finance area for the next year to 18 months were men - and, this was a high turnover department of over 50 people, so it seemed like every month, we'd have 2-3 people leave and another 2-3 get hired.
The ironic part was that his favorite new hires were two gay men (not completely out of the closet, but they had a foot out the door...) and the Mormon church also is not that tolerant of homosexuality, I believe. He was pretty oblivious to them being gay, though.
I was at the company for about 2 years, but I guess this guy was fired less than a year after I left.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)and getting away with anything he wanted. Because he was such an ass, his coworker dig deeper, and realized for all his complaints he was carrying 1/3 of her work load. It was re proportioned, and the minute he was expected to pull equal weight, he felt victimized made plans to bail out. Last I heard, he was working somewhere that makes you sign out for a five minute cigarette break, whereas he had been trusted to come and go at his own schedule where we were.
Funny thing was, this place is the first I'd worked at with actual standards and an active HR department, before that I'd witnessed all sorts of awful abusive behavior that there was no hope of rectifying. I expected this company to be so much better, but it was not, initially. Lots of cruel female anatomy jokes. It took my boss to fear for her own job, before that she was letting people be subjected to verbal abuse and seriously mismanaged people's workload based on favoritism and whims. That guy seemed to be able to hypnotize his bosses by pretending to be their best friends, we saw it time and time again. It really made the managers look like big suckers, because he would also make fun of them in front of all of us. I kind of wish I'd have taped some of that, and sent it to her!
CrispyQ
(40,969 posts)the inappropriate comment they made to a co-worker who was not offended by it, does not have to be reported on by her for them to get in trouble on a sexual harassment complaint. If someone else overhears it & they go to HR, the complaint is just as valid.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)And lo and behold, a few clueless misogynists couldn't help themselves in this thread. 
Cleita
(75,480 posts)that were accepted and implemented, but they took the credit for them. One of those superiors, only one over the years, made sure I got good raises and other perks. When I asked him why me and not some of the other ladies, he told me he credited me with a lot of his successes, but being the culture of the company was what it was, he couldn't promote me to any executive positions or credit me for innovations because it wouldn't have been accepted. I lived 'Mad Men'.
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)Only after I became a physician did I start speaking up in the same way----doctors of all genders being honorary "men" in our culture.
MindPilot
(12,693 posts)It was so obvious, you couldn't have made it more so with a literal slap in the face.
This was an IT environment. My female co-worker made a statement about a problem we were experiencing and offered a suggestion to solve it. She was completely ignored by the manager...not dismissed, not minimized, just completely ignored as if she had said nothing.
I then repeated literally verbatim what she had just said a few moments earlier, and I immediately had everyone's attention. I said something along the lines of "well that is Dawn's assessment of the problem and I think y'all need to start listening to her."
I don't know if anyone else had the epiphany I did that day, but it was the first time--and thankfully the last--I ever experienced workplace sexism with that level of non-subtly.
CrispyQ
(40,969 posts)You not only listened & noticed, you spoke up. 
It would be interesting to know if anyone else had that same epiphany.
BubbaFett
(361 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 14, 2015, 05:44 PM - Edit history (1)
our receptionist about this.
It's like she sometimes has more power than the owner.
She knows where everything is (including the skeletons).
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)undervalue the work women do!
BubbaFett
(361 posts)How do you know that she isn't paid well and isn't valued?
Or are you just looking for a fight?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And you said yourself, "She know where everything is"
BubbaFett
(361 posts)you just extrapolate that ALL receptionists/admin staff are poorly treated/underpaid/bearing some kinda cross?
What is your point?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)See how that works?
I don't see how that works.
Please explain your erroneous assumption.
You know absolutely ZERO detail about this person's employment relationship.
On what basis are you jumping the gun?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)has been for decades. the title alone tells you it is minimum wage. that is why people reduced your post to what they did.
it is a given.
you say reception knows all and runs the company. at minimum wage. it is more like a pat on her head, for her ego, as she is paid nothing.
it rings, hollow
BubbaFett
(361 posts)because receptionists exist?
Or are you just pooping in the swimming pool because you erroneously assume that ALL support personnel EVERYWHERE make minimum wage?
I don't get where you are coming from.
How do you know what our receptionist gets paid?
You made the declarative statement that our receptionist gets paid minimum wage. How do you know this is the case?
What wizardry did you employ to categorically state what the receptionist at our company gets paid?
Do you realize how insane your post sounds?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)very poorly structured to appear as if you have any validity to your argument what so ever.
polly7
(20,582 posts)http://www.salaryexplorer.com/salary-survey.php?loc=38&loctype=1&jobtype=3&job=29
http://www.jobbank.gc.ca/report-eng.do;jsessionid=99E2F194108D575F7590AB9625C045B8.imnav2?area=9219&lang=eng&noc=1414&action=final&s=1&source=8
http://www.retailcouncil.org/quickfacts/minimum-wage
They make more than I did at the Credit Union and Banks I worked at, that was a long time ago though, the bars (excluding tips), starting as a Special Care Aide, and when I first started in EMS. And yes ........ I know they have a LOT of responsibility in keeping the whole office running. I know a few working in different office settings who love their jobs and wouldn't trade them for anything - one who's told me her pay, does make a lot more than the average wage stated above.
Are wages really so different in the U.S.?
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)The very definition of irony.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)A lot of receptionists make a lot more than minimum wage, especially if they have been with the company for a long time. Good receptionists expect a lot more than "a pat on her head." Oh, and not all of them are women.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)typically, consistently, it is the enter level to a business.
reality check. factual. and everyone in business knows this to be true.
do some make more, or just above minimum? sure. A LOT more? no.
it is a position that allows one entry into a business, or for the person with low skills and/or experience. for you guys to be arguing about this is absurd. it is nothing against that position, it simply is what it is.
and ... oh.... no one mentioned it was a position ONLY for women.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)How do you define "a lot"?
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)"The median annual salary for receptionists was $26,410 in 2013, or $12.70 an hour, according to the BLS. The best-paid in the profession earned $38,170, while the least-paid earned $18,330. The highest-paid receptionists work in California in the metropolitan areas of San Francisco, Oakland, Santa Rosa, Vallejo and San Jose."
That's about 1.7 times higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour.
Sorry Sea, a swing and a miss.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)I worked as a receptionist 6ish years ago and was paid $12/hour plus benefits. There were a few other receptionists during my time there, including a man, none were paid minimum wage. I would say that $12-$15/he would be normal.
http://www1.salary.com/Receptionist-Salary.html
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)except that they're completely and utterly wrong?
And it would have taken about 15 seconds to verify.
Color me shocked.
kimmylavin
(2,298 posts)And this is also why it helps to have women in more powerful positions.
About 8 years ago, I was offered an editing job.
I knew *how* to do it, I had just never officially done it professionally.
I talked to the producer about my misgivings, and she gave me one of the best wake-up calls I've ever had.
She said if I was a man, I would just take the job and figure everything out, even if I was only 75% sure I could do it.
But, as a woman, I was afraid to take the job unless I was 100% certain I could do it.
So she basically bullied me into taking the job...
Which was awesome, and which I did with no problems.
Since then, I don't hold myself back so much.
(And I've gotten to use that line of reasoning with more than one woman coming up behind me!)
yuiyoshida
(45,409 posts)Thanks for sharing
RobinA
(10,478 posts)those lines happened that I observed. I was a paralegal and at a trial. The lawyer on our side (a man) who was trying the case made a bit of a blunder and was called out by the judge. It was minor in the scheme of things, but he looked like he didn't know what he was talking about. Afterwards when eveybody was rehashing the day he turned that incident into a minor victory for him. My first thought when he started talking about it was, "Jeez, I would be too embarrassed to even mention that." Then I realized he was spinning it into an advantage for him and it dawned on me that that's how men come off looking more successful than woman. He didn't lie at all, he just spun what happened into brilliant lawyering on his part. And everyone went along with it. I learned a huge lesson that day. I can't actually DO something like that, but I wish I could.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)From our editor to our advertising manager to our reporter. It wasn't by design, just the way things turned out currently. I seek their opinions and advice constantly, encourage them to find creative outlets that support our work and the business (as well as the community we serve) is better off for it.
Any business that discourages its employees from communicating, regardless of gender, is a troubled environment.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)We had one newly minted male manager who stole anyone's work if it could elevate his own standing with the senior management. He used to do that with PowerPoints that I did for him; just remove my name and replace it with his own.
He would also publicly berate anyone who didn't do a task in the way that he would have - even if it were done correctly and in a timely fashion. There was only one way to do things - his way.
We had a young woman engineer that we hired from BU. She was brilliant but inexperienced. She once made a small error in the design of a flexible circuit - an error that I caught (since it was my job to review all the design work) - so no harm was done. Nevertheless, he berated her so badly in our next meeting that she just about broke down. He had also made men cry.
Quite a few good people quit under his reign of terror, but it took about 4 years for management to remove him.
I'm sure women have it plenty rough in the workplace, but men can be beaten up pretty badly too.
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)but the same building and staff)...
We had two female engineers come aboard in the early '90s; both smart and qualified; both were WPI graduates. They were both what would be considered very attractive. A lot of the men grumbled that they were there to meet a husband. Mind you, the is was a 98% male environment, as most engineering departments were back in the day.
But funnily enough, both of those women did end up marrying their managers (after torrid affairs that ended the managers' marriages), despite HR policy of no dating between a supervisor and subordinate. It was a stressful work environment, with long hours and nights and weekends the routine, so I think there was a 'foxhole' mentality at work that exploited the emotional vulnerability of men and women that are terribly overworked.
I never thought that there was anything particularly wrong with this outcome - people do meet and fall in love in the workplace, and as long as there is no coercion, what's the problem. But it did trouble me a bit that it was Management that these women became involved with. As managers, these men were in a position of power over the women. Did that give them more of an 'ownership' status? I don't know, but I suspect so.
At least the managers did transfer their (now) wives to different groups so that there would be no chance of impropriety in salary, promotions etc. After a few years, both ladies quit to stay home and raise babies.
I was always taught that workplace romances were a bad, bad idea, but these worked out rather well, except for the first wives who were left to raise the managers' first brood.
Anyway, to the OP - our work environment was very inclusive, and people were always encouraged to share credit where it was due. Women didn't seem (to me at least) to hold back their opinions. But this was DEC in the '80s, which was a great company with a great ethic. We were all trained in diversity and proper office behavior. There were a fair number of women and minority managers.