"Add faithophobia to my crimes: I have no respect for religions that have little respect for me"

[sibelian]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/14/charlie-hebdo-add-faithophobia-to-my-crimes

Voltaire is being quoted everywhere at the moment, although some say his words were different to what we are being told. He actually wrote in a letter in 1770 to Abbot le Riche: “I detest what you write but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write.” And of course lives have been taken rather than given for writing what many detest.

The arguments go back and forth between those who think Charlie Hebdo should not have published its latest cover image of Muhammad and those – and I am one – who think that they are publishing anything at all is amazing and heartening. The image of a crying man does not offend me. I am not a Muslim but I see that the cover has been read as yet more provocation, even an undoing of the unity of the marches in Paris and other cities. To certain scumbag preachers it is “an act of war”.

Equally disturbing is this talk of blasphemy. Jesus H Christ, remind me what year this is. At one end of the spectrum we have talk of blasphemy, then at the other a kind of liberal anxiety about bad manners – as if showing images was akin to bringing the wrong wine to a dinner party. To all of this, I must say I am pretty gobsmacked. There is a kind of faux respect floating around that I do not trust at all. For it is fearful.

[msongs]

1. 2 dominant religions are stuck in a time warp of the era of their creation. the world has moved

on, it's not the year 36 or the 600's anymore.

[sibelian]

12. And we're all supposed to kowtow when these creeps are "offended".

Fuck 'em.

C Hebdo has FORGIVEN THEM and they declare this statement of forgiveness to be an act of war.

May the Muslims of good charcater and fine feelings release themselves from insanity, claim their morality as their own and slave their minds to no "prophet".

[sabrina 1]

32. Half the world's population are members of both of those religions, so I don't think the world has

moved on from religion at all.

[Skittles]

2. yup

absolutely sick of being told I have to respect religions that don't do NOT respect me

[yuiyoshida]

4. you want I

should give them an Ass Kicking Skittles?

[distantearlywarning]

8. +1

Me too.

[sibelian]

10. Totes. D'you see me shooting 'em up cos they hang gays?

No.

[PeaceNikki]

3. amen and hallelujah.

[Ykcutnek]

5. Islam became a sacred cow among the American left

simply because right-wingers said and did stupid things after 9/11.

It has nothing to do with open mindedness or critical thinking.

[PeaceNikki]

6. Exactly. As a woman, a strong supporter of women, LGBT and a secular society, Republicans are

My adversaries.

Organized religion is as well. Christianity and Islam generally are examples of misogyny, hate and violence. And both attempt to inject these horrible beliefs into society, governments and law. And I, for one, won't hold back on criticizing Islam just because the RW does.

They criticize because it's not Christian. I criticize because its existence in its current form is in direct conflict with my core values. We think it's hypocritical when the Christian RW wants to exclude Islam while pushing their agendas (and it is!), but I ALSO think it's hypocritical to defend Islam or pretend their harmful beliefs do not exist and I won't. I am well known on DU for my criticism of Popes, the RCC and any other religious person or belief that is discriminatory or otherwise harmful to a secular society. I don't like any of it.

I cannot and will not respect it. Any of it. Not out of obligation, and not out of fear.

[SidDithers]

11. Nailed it...

Sid

[Skittles]

13. well-said, PeaceNikki

I am so fed up with the defense of values I find just plain sickening

[m-lekktor]

14. I agree. excellent post!

[REP]

15. Boom.

[kwassa]

16. Oh, bullshit. Broadbrush anti-religious bigotry rears it's head again.

The atheist members of DU have spoken. This thread should really be dumped in the Religion forum.

Christianity and Islam generally are examples of misogyny, hate and violence

Neither Christianity nor Islam are examples of that. Parts of both religions are examples of that, but no one who truly pays attention to what happens in the world of either religion would come up with that conclusion about the totality for both religious denominations.

The majority of the United Council of Churches are liberal. The majority of Catholics voted for Obama.

Write again when you learn what you are talking about.

[PeaceNikki]

17. Opposing bigotry is not bigotry.

And tolerating intolerance is not, in fact, tolerance. It is merely the passive-aggressive enabling of intolerance.

[kwassa]

18. Labeling two entire religions as bigots IS bigotry.

which makes you a bigot, in my opinion.

[PeaceNikki]

21. Ask me if I care what you think of me.

G'head.

[kwassa]

22. The feeling is mutual. The head of my church is a woman.

The Episcopal Church.

Most of the gay people that I currently know are Episcopal clergy.

The Bishop of Washington, DC, married the assistant rector of my church to her same sex partner at National Cathedral in DC. The cathedral that holds services for US Presidents.

Like I said, you don't know what you are talking about, and are an anti-religious bigot.

[PeaceNikki]

23. OK.

I was raised and confirmed in "the church". And I broke free. I know what they think of me, my gender and my LGBT brethren. And I don't give a flying fuck what they or you think.

Not even a little.

And if they did us all the favor of staying out of our lives with their misogynistic, homophobic controlling guilt ridden bullshit I would shut up. Until then, it's on.

[kwassa]

27. Which church were you raised in?

That makes a great deal of difference. And, where these churches are.

There are a boatload of Christian churches open and celebrating of LGBT relationships.

[PeaceNikki]

29. I really don't want to discuss it with you.

Last edited Thu Jan 15, 2015, 12:13 AM - Edit history (1)

I made general statements about my feelings on religion and you got personal with me. You just want to fight.

I never attacked you, your denomination or any of your friends. I attacked the institutions. You, on the other hand, felt the need to call me names and insult my intelligence.

Find someone else to fight with. I stated my opinions and you yours.

Good day.

[kwassa]

39. so .... you can dish it out, but can't take it. OK.

I have so little respect for that.

I was simply asking about your background. Believe it or not, the Christian churches in America are wildly different from each other.

[PeaceNikki]

40. reread the thread l

I never attacked you, your denomination or any of your friends. Or any individual believers. I attacked the institutions. You, on the other hand, felt the need to call me names and insult my intelligence.

I don't know you and I don't want to fight you. I want to fight for equality and a secular society. You just want to throw jabs at me.

Phooey.

[kwassa]

42. You didn't differentiate.

Shall we re-cap? A quote from your OP.

My adversaries.

Organized religion is as well. Christianity and Islam generally are examples of misogyny, hate and violence. And both attempt to inject these horrible beliefs into society, governments and law. And I, for one, won't hold back on criticizing Islam just because the RW does.

This analysis, if such an word can be used to describe it, is bullshit.What part of this don't you understand?

[PeaceNikki]

43. That's my opinion. You think it's bullshit and I think your framing of it is.

Super.

You still waltzed in here, made it about yourself and hurled insults at me when none were thrown at you personally.

How Christian of you.

[kwassa]

48. Consider your statement. I quoted it twice. Address that.

You hurled your insults, undifferentiated, towards all Christians and Muslims.

I can sell you a clue, if you would truly like to understand.

[PeaceNikki]

47. and yes, I did differentiate.

I said Islam and Christianity, not Muslims and Christians. I said organized religion, not believers.

[kwassa]

49. What is the difference?

Believers participate and relate to the organized religions they belong to.

[PeaceNikki]

50. It's wonderful and awesome of your flavor of Christianity is inclusive and kind.

Not all are. I know that and you know that. There are constant attempts by the Mormons and Catholics and groups like Focus on Family that want to restrict my rights and the rights of many others. They are a threat to our autonomy and civil rights. Not you. Not all.

But, not none, ffs.

[oberliner]

20. Have you read their doctrinal texts?

I mean, there are lots of Christians and Muslims who don't actual take those texts literally and more power to them.

But the Bible and Koran are both filled with misogyny, hate and violence.

[kwassa]

24. The Bible and Koran are filled with many other things as well.

I know little about the Koran, but accept what Muslims I know tell me about the positive aspects of Islam.

The importance of the Bible, to me, is the idea that God is just, and that in the story of Jesus we find an example of a way to live that is exemplary.

[sibelian]

26. "I know little about the Koran, but accept what Muslims I know"

In other words, you're just mouthing off.

[kwassa]

28. What a bizarre interpretation of what I said.

I do know about the Five Pillars of Islam. What do you know?

[sibelian]

53. This.

"The death penalty for homosexuality is currently in place in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Afghanistan, Mauritania, Sudan and northern Nigeria.[61][62] The legal situation in the United Arab Emirates is that it is illegal and can get you the death penalty, but some regions just give jail time, mutilations, and fines. In Qatar, Algeria, Uzbekistan and the Maldives, homosexuality is punished with jail time or fines. This has led to controversy regarding Qatar, which is due to stage the 2022 FIFA World Cup. Human rights groups have questioned the awarding in 2010 of the right to host the competition, due to the possibility that gay football fans may be jailed. In response, Sepp Blatter, head of FIFA, joked that they would have to "refrain from sexual activity" while in Qatar. He later withdrew the remarks after condemnation from rights groups.[63]

In Saudi Arabia, while the maximum punishment for homosexual acts is public execution, the government will generally use lesser punishments—e.g., fines, jail time, and whipping—as alternatives, unless it feels that individuals are challenging state authority by engaging in LGBT social movements.[64] Iran is perhaps the nation to execute the largest number of its citizens for homosexual acts.


Since the 1979 Islamic revolution, the Iranian government has executed more than 4,000 such people.[65]


In Egypt, openly gay men have been prosecuted under general public morality laws. (See Cairo 52.) In stark contrast, homosexuality is both legal[citation needed] and tolerated[citation needed] in Lebanon[citation needed] and other states in the Levant, like Palestine[citation needed], Jordan[citation needed], and Syria[citation needed].

In 20 out of 57 Muslim-majority nations same-sex intercourse is not forbidden by law. In Albania there have been discussions about legalizing same-sex marriage.[8] Homosexual relations between females are legal in Kuwait but homosexual acts between males are illegal. Lebanon has an internal effort to legalize homosexuality.[10]"

From this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam

Is it lying to me?

[kwassa]

55. Is this because of religion, or culture? This is vile, of course.

But everyone, including the Christian denominations, are equally homophobic in the same countries.

I would suggest that the taboo against homosexuality has existed for a long time has created a cultural interpretation of the Koran and the Bible that interprets homosexuality a certain way.

As least as far as the Bible is concerned, Jesus never had a word to say on homosexuality. Others had things to say, but whether they are speaking about homosexuality as we currently understand it is not known.

[sibelian]

56. There's no way to neatly polarise the two

in the countries under discussion. We're not talking about nations with a substantial multiplicity of viewpoints on how religion and culture should interact. It's possible in the West to make something of a distinction, though even that's debatable, but the Middle East is filled with countries in which the dominant arbiter of morality is religion. That means "culture" and "religion" come to mean essentially the same thing.

In any case, kwassa, were I to place the responsibility for the attitudes which you and I both regard as vile in the field of "culture", we both know that there are DUers who would still regard this as "racist" on the grounds that I'm denigrating their culture.

I do not know if you are such a DUer.

[kwassa]

57. I disagree in this regard.

There is a multiplicity of viewpoints in certain countries in the Middle East.

Lebanon is made of made of highly-diverse civilian population of many different religions, or sects, including Christians. Syria has differing ethnicities, for a long time ruled by the Alawite minority. Other countries have both Sunni and Shia Muslims. Many Middle Eastern countries have historically both Christian and Jewish populations that were tolerated in them.

But within totally Muslim nations, there is still a vast range of belief from liberal to conservative. Pakistan has the complete range, from a free press and independent judiciary, to the most fanatical religious and oppressive conservatives in existence.

and I would point out that Nigeria, not in the Middle East, has huge sectarian conflict between the Muslim north and the Christian south, and both sides are extremely homophobic. On the other hand, the mostly Christian South Africa has legalized same-sex marriage. This is why I suggest the separation of culture from religion.

It can come down to a chicken-and-egg argument. Which came first? Is the interpretation of the religion done through the pre-existing culture? I would say that it is.

[sibelian]

54. This.

"The death penalty for homosexuality is currently in place in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Afghanistan, Mauritania, Sudan and northern Nigeria.[61][62] The legal situation in the United Arab Emirates is that it is illegal and can get you the death penalty, but some regions just give jail time, mutilations, and fines. In Qatar, Algeria, Uzbekistan and the Maldives, homosexuality is punished with jail time or fines. This has led to controversy regarding Qatar, which is due to stage the 2022 FIFA World Cup. Human rights groups have questioned the awarding in 2010 of the right to host the competition, due to the possibility that gay football fans may be jailed. In response, Sepp Blatter, head of FIFA, joked that they would have to "refrain from sexual activity" while in Qatar. He later withdrew the remarks after condemnation from rights groups.[63]

In Saudi Arabia, while the maximum punishment for homosexual acts is public execution, the government will generally use lesser punishments—e.g., fines, jail time, and whipping—as alternatives, unless it feels that individuals are challenging state authority by engaging in LGBT social movements.[64] Iran is perhaps the nation to execute the largest number of its citizens for homosexual acts.


Since the 1979 Islamic revolution, the Iranian government has executed more than 4,000 such people.[65]


In Egypt, openly gay men have been prosecuted under general public morality laws. (See Cairo 52.) In stark contrast, homosexuality is both legal[citation needed] and tolerated[citation needed] in Lebanon[citation needed] and other states in the Levant, like Palestine[citation needed], Jordan[citation needed], and Syria[citation needed].

In 20 out of 57 Muslim-majority nations same-sex intercourse is not forbidden by law. In Albania there have been discussions about legalizing same-sex marriage.[8] Homosexual relations between females are legal in Kuwait but homosexual acts between males are illegal. Lebanon has an internal effort to legalize homosexuality.[10]"

From this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_in_Islam

Is it lying to me? Or are you lying to yourself?

[oberliner]

30. As long as people who believe that stuff don't try to impose their views on the rest of us

Then they can believe whatever they want to believe.

However, I think if one is a devout follower of a religion that leads them to believe that their holy text is the infallible word of divinity and that text is filled with calls for misogyny or violence or oppression then there could be a problem.

[kwassa]

31. I agree.

Much of my early religious education came at the very liberal First Congregational Church of Oberlin, Ohio. The youth group.

[oberliner]

33. Did you have any interaction with any Oberlin college students?

Quite a bit of college vs. town tensions when I was there.

[kwassa]

35. We used to crash the co-op parties.

Not a lot to do in Oberlin, if you are a townie.

some very fun parties, by the way. This was the late 60s.

no tensions that I can remember.

We did some political things together. There were protest demonstrations together. Kent State happened while I was in high school, and there were demonstrations that shut down Oberlin and hundreds of other schools, and I knew people that went to Kent State.

I painted the rock in the town square. I worked in high school for the Oberlin News Tribune. Many of my family, parents, brother and sister, uncles and aunts, cousins, and now nieces, went to Oberlin. I went to art school

[oberliner]

36. Very cool

I was there a little more recently than you - it was a bit of a different scene, though people still painted the rock.

My joke was that I belonged to the farthest right-wing group on the Oberlin College campus - the College Democrats.

[kwassa]

41. well, that's Oberlin.

For a small school , it has an outsize impact on the world.

I really like that it was the very first school in the US for both blacks and women, since I am married to a black woman, it is a noble heritage. Oberlin was this way from it's founding.

[treestar]

59. Those times were

Though at the time I doubt those people had the chance to be enlightened enough to identify misogyny like we would.

Previous times are always more violent, religion or not. People in 5000 BC didn't have the chances we've had to avoid it.

[sibelian]

25. Sort this out for me, buddy

[kwassa]

34. I've lived through the history of the gay liberation movement.

Let us have a little historical perspective.

There are many, if not most, societies in the world that have had an anti-homosexual tradition over the course of history, or at least recent history.

I went to college in 1970. I was shocked out of my mind to encounter men having public relationships with other men, being a naive kid from the midwest.

I got over it.

The shifting attitudes over gay relationships, and then gay marriage, evolved over time in the US and other Western European countries, and then traveled on to other parts of the world. To expect other countries, particularly those with less contact with the outside world, and those unaffected by modernity to change their ways based on what we do is the current version of naive.

All of this will change. What we need is patience and the basic work of rationally convincing others.

[sibelian]

51. So gay people under Islam just have to suck it up.

You're a piece of work, pal. You're so wound up in your imaginary righteousness that any opinion will do so long as you look liberal to yourself.

"To expect other countries, particularly those with less contact with the outside world, and those unaffected by modernity to change their ways based on what we do is the current version of naive."

No, petal, actually to expect ther countries to behave as if gay people are not whatever they think they are in order to justify their emotional reaction to them but real people with an identifiable sexual orientation is the current definition of ordinary human decency. There is no "cultural relativism". Either you believe what they are doing is wrong or you don't. Which is it?

[PeaceNikki]

52. So, change happens if we just sit down and shut up?

Bollacks. I will stand and scream for human rights. I will demand equality. And I would expect my liberal allies and all those who value equality do the same. Or at least step aside and allow us to demand it without insulting our intelligence or calling us names for doing so.

[longship]

38. If they sew it, they should wear it.

And they do sew it.

You reap what you sew -- so to speak.

So say the profits.

Drops mike.

[kwassa]

44. Spell it korrectly. You reep what you sew. Ignore the profitz.

Or the Prophet and Loss Statement, if you are an accountant.

[longship]

45. Well played, my friend. Well played. I stand corrected. nt

[on point]

37. Perfect statement of where it stands. 1000+ support PeaceNikki.

[smirkymonkey]

58. Hear, hear!

[smirkymonkey]

61. I'll second that.

it's ridiculous.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

7. You know what I heard at a book club meeting?

A woman said that she told her niece not to text OMG, "because God gets mad when you do that. Don't do that."

I was polite so I didn't say anything but that was one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.

If I was rude I would have done what my parents used to do to me: "Who told you that?"


There are a lot of incredibly humorless Christians out there that can't stand mild ridicule and think you are mocking their religion. If they want to see me mock them, then they haven't seen me when I'm warmed up.

[Albertoo]

9. Brother faithophobiac, may the inexistent God bless you.

[cwydro]

19. Sick to death of all religion.

Full stop.

[Bluenorthwest]

46. Those who want my respect can respect me and they will get respect in return.

Those who don't respect me can go fuck themselves with the holy scripture of their own choice.

[smirkymonkey]

60. +1000