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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHow is religion any different than creative speculation???
The creative speculation forum is full of conspiracy theories and pseudoscience that have very little if any evidence.
People get really ridiculed over there there all the time!
I don't see any difference.
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)Which is a terrible reason to treat it differently if you ask me, but there it is.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)egduj
(805 posts)Religions pretty much regurgitate the same stories from 10,000 or so years ago.
uppityperson
(115,679 posts)That they must continue to be nasty to those who may believe in something more than scientific provable pragmatism.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)uppityperson
(115,679 posts)to live and be.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)I, for one, am sick of being told that I cannot criticize or mock large and powerful organizations who threaten the autonomy and human rights of millions.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Some of the most wonderful things in our lives defy scientific explanation!
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)Or rather they do only to those who cannot understand the science.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)It is to laugh.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)There are mysteries and there are wonders, for atheists and believers and scientists and scholars, and these sometimes have "scientific" explanations.
But these explanations often are developed to satisfy some urgent need to "explain", as if the unexplainable is uncomfortable for them.
So, they pour hours and hours writing treatises about how observable evidence exists to explain every phenomenon that can be named.
Now am I talking about science, or could it be something else?
What is it with people that everything needs an explanation?
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Whether we have the tools or methods to explain them at this time is a different matter.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)I presented to a group that included 60% retired Lawrence Livermore Lab scientists and they couldn't explain magnets.
They admitted that they can only describe what seems to be happening. All of us laughed.
They can only make guesses when it comes to the big questions.
Just like religion.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)I'm not sure what the rest of that post even means.
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)I will acknowledge that really understanding why magnets act as they do and what makes some materials reactive to magnets whereas others are not is difficult for those who lack at least a rudimentary grasp of physics but to suggest that it is a "mystery" that defies scientific explanation is ridiculous.
I run into this sort of thing again and again. There are people who are incapable, for some reason or another, of grasping the scientific explanation for some phenomenon or another and this makes them conclude that it is unknowable, a mystery, indistinguishable from magic. It's nonsense. Even in cases where a thing is not yet fully understood, suggesting that it CANNOT be is absurd. Again and again this has been proven to be incorrect, but still they persist. Did scholars of the 4th century understand gravity? Orbital mechanics? Of course not. That didn't mean those things were impervious to scientific understanding; it simply meant we hadn't gotten there yet.
"God" is a copout for the intellectually lazy and the wishful thinkers.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)(note to self)
Both are based on human curiosity and, sometimes, an obsessive compulsion to "understand" or to "explain", but in both cases relying upon a great deal of faith.
I'm more of the mind that not every thing can be known, or should be known, and I become skeptical of any who profess certainty about a thing, whether it be a scientific matter or a matter of faith.
There are scientific and religious explanations for practically every thing from dinosaurs to gravity, occasionally they agree and at other times they diverge.
But the brightest people I know from either camp will be happy to answer a question with, "I don't know the answer; I'm not sure about that".
That takes courage, and courage is in short supply.
So, here's to a few things that defy scientific or religious explanation:
Love at first sight!
Gravity!
The afterlife!
Magnets!
Snooki!
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)do gravity and magnetism defy scientific explanation?
Logical
(22,457 posts)uppityperson
(115,679 posts)It's very odd.
There's been a lot of mocking of many minorities, religions and races here, and it's quite troubling to say the least.
uppityperson
(115,679 posts)We all self censor, it is called manners and being empathetic. Just because I can say something I know will be hurtful does not mean I necessarily should.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)but empathy, for some reason, seems to be lacking for some.
And it's even more troubling to see it on a democratic forum.
silverweb
(16,402 posts)[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]I haven't posted in any threads on this subject so far because I find so many of the posts and the general tone callous, rude, and deliberately hurtful.
Personally, I don't care what a person believes -- just so long as they don't impose it on others or use it to hurt others. Too many do, but far more don't. "Live and let live" seems to be just an anachronism these days.
Thomas Jefferson said, "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
The fact that many people do use their religion to pick pockets and break legs - and worse - reflects a lot of what's wrong in the world today.
Logical
(22,457 posts)genwah
(574 posts)learn more about the stuff that's around us.
It's not just spirituality, or the voices in your head that tell you whatever; there's still a Flat Earth Society. I made a mistake last friday, which wound me up into a pie fight, but your comment leads me to write an OP about my real pie adventure with the Flat Earthers.
I really know better than to post here, but really?
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)How do we really know what's at the center of the Earth, of the Sun, and how are we so sure that nothing can travel faster than light?
Seriously, our very existence is largely based on speculation.
There's your answer, it's all creative speculation.
greyl
(22,990 posts)Holy fucking shit.
It's like they don't understand how science works or something.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)chrisa
(4,524 posts)Science is based on observation and experimentation, which leads to proven facts. I wouldn't call it creative speculation at all - it's the exact opposite, in fact.
Religion, on the other hand, is largely faith-based and can almost never be proven. Most of it can't even be experimented with or observed, meaning that none of it is factual.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)The entire universe was dreamed up by some bored kid running an app on his iphone. When we stop being entertaining he resets the app for another game.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)with inputs coming from computers. That bowled him over for days.
We really have no idea of what's going on.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)We base our theories on what is at the center of the Earth not just on some shit we feel like making up at any given moment, but by a combination of what we understand from plate tectonics, verified acoustic models of what happens through the earth during Earthquakes, the magnetism generated by the Earth's core, and things like what we know re: the composition of lower layers of rock, because some of those rocks come up through volcanoes or cycling of the continents.
The sun- we have a good grasp of the chemical composition of the sun, again, from physical evidence- and we know the energy produced by the fusion reactions inside. Just because we can't see the center of the sun, doesn't mean we can't make very educated guesses about what happens inside it.
Nothing can travel faster than light? Fuck, maybe it can. Spacetime itself might very well be able to. But matter traveling through spacetime- not likely, because we also have a solid understanding of relativity, the mathematics of which are likewise well-verified by data and evidence. We know what happens to particles when they approach the speed of light, including mass changes and time dilation.
So no, it's NOT "all creative speculation". There is a vast difference between a scientific theory that is well-established and backed up by a solid evidentiary framework, and a "theory" like "Aliens stole my tv dinner".
It's fucking tiresome, this much-beloved-by-creationists idea that ALL postulations are created equal. They're not. I can postulate that sometime in the next 24 hours I will need to take a poop, that is backed up by biology, logic and medical fact. I can postulate that sometime in the next 24 hours I will turn into the golden gate bridge, and that's just some shit I made up.
There's a big difference between science and shit someone made up.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)FUCK I LOVE SCIENCE
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Your reply helps make my point.
The physical evidence you cite required to reach your conclusions are not based in fact, they are accepted as fact through a particular Western set of requirements but many or most of the constituent assumptions are, in fact, open to debate.
The fact that science has to continually self-correct is evidence of it's fallibility.
Every scientific statement, if honest, would start with the following caveat, "if our assumptions are true", or "based on current understanding of".
Don't toss me into a group with creationists, I am not one.
And there are several reasons that you might not have a poop in the next 24 hours, but each have only a small chance of happening in this particular 24 hour period.
Science and religion, both based on assumptions and faith a fair amount of the time.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)And it is EXACTLY the same shit creationists use in their arguments.
If I look in the yard and see a shoe print in the mud, and then 5 feet away I see a muddy shoe, and the print of the shoe matches the mud perfectly, is it a reasonable hypothesis that someone stepped in the mud and then lost the shoe? I didnt see it happen. i dont know FOR CERTAIN. But it is a reasonable, logical hypothesis that is backed up with all available evidence.
If I say "the shoe and the print both materialized out of nothing, five minutes before I got here" or "they were left by Barney the magical dinosaur", are those equivalently valid hypotheses? I mean, I wasnt there. i dont KNOW.
But science is based upon educated, evidence-based propositions which can and must be updated in the face of new data. Religious dogma is not. Deal with it.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts).
I'm in a happy place, happy with science AND with religion, and fully aware of the shortcomings and limitations of each.
I don't want to burst your balloon, but muddy shoe prints as a proof is not an example that can be expanded with any confidence to heliophysics, IMO.
I might ask my friends at the UC Berkeley Space Sciences Lab what their level of confidence is as to the composition of the sun's core.
They are nice people. They gave me a part of a spacecraft as cool thing for my mantle.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I suspect they will tell you that while we don't know exactly what is going on at the center of the sun, we have a pretty decent idea both of the processes and general composition.
Ask them how likely they think it is that it is full of orange angels singing hosannahs, instead of fusing hydrogen atoms.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Your binary thinking, either this or that; both cannot be true thinking is at once simplistic AND absurdly complicated.
Simplistic because it's lazy and requires no imagination, and complicated because it ties you up in knots trying to defend your exclusive viewpoint while attacking the one you oppose.
Embrace possibilities, it's the only way we ever progress.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)It can, if you define orange angels as "something that isnt actually there by any objective standard"
I suspect I'm more open-minded than you think, Skip. (I also suspect you're not entirely serious, here...) But I'm also skeptical AND precise about the limitations of semantic concepts and maps... And there is almost no muddier, ill-defined, malleable, all purpose- and as such fundamentally meaningless- concept, than "God".
"I don't know what it is, I refuse to even define it, but I know it exists!"
Why hang on so tightly to a word that can mean whatever someone wants it to?
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)You just can't explain it.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)If you were diagnosed with cancer whether you would chose creative speculation or science-based medicine as a basis for treatment. One would hope that intellectual honesty would compel you to give the former a fair shake, since you can discern no difference, right? And as you yourself say, if creative speculation doesn't work, what's the point of existing anyway?
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)I hope with all my heart that you are kidding.
Julie
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)If my tongue weren't firmly planted in my cheek most of my waking day, I do believe that I would expire for lack of activity.
And I haven't even played my best cards with the "oh no you didn't say that" gang on the science/theory debate, yet.
Have a great day!
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Maybe we can get some cheeky bumper-sticker style aphorisms in there, too. Something pithy about how "I dont understand electricity, either, but I turn on the light switch and it's there!"
Leaving aside, of course, the fact that magical gnomes didnt wire the house, trained electricians did.
... Fuckin magnets! How do they work! You can practically smell the excitement. It'll be just like a 12 step meeting.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)cheapdate
(3,811 posts)The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Religion is something you can't prove, creative speculation (conspiracy theories) are something that have proof somewhere.
Either 9/11 was an inside job or it wasn't, for example. There is an answer to that because it is a human made issue. Same with kennedy, aliens, and pretty much everything else.
Religion is based on a speculation that you can't prove and goes off individual/group experiences and interpretations of those. It's more of an abstract speculation to understand things whereas conspiracy theories have a foundation in an actual event we can examine and know that in some way shape or form the answer is directly related to human actions (hiding information, lying, etc) - compared to something which involves non-human actions (the players in one are real and provable but they are not in the other).
So yes, both require speculation, but only one is founded on and centered around solely human actions (yes, you could say that ,technically, so is religion but see above).
Logical
(22,457 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)They become easier to swallow, as they age.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)It's full of absolute bullshit too.
JI7
(89,263 posts)and more about their own spirituality . and other benefits they feel their religion gives them.
much of this has to do with how religion is more of a culture/tradition/family thing for most people.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)regarding what religion is seems sort of disingenuous at best.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)If your neighbor told you your satellite dish is beaming thoughts into his head and destroying the fabric of society, you'd probably think he's mad as a hatter. However, if your neighbor told you gay marriage was destroying the fabric of society, you'd probably just think he's religious.
onenote
(42,758 posts)How does ridiculing people over their belief in God help the cause of electing Democrats?
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)would lead to a more rational society which would favor Democrats. In theory.
But of course there are plenty of atheist Republicans and even more atheist libertarians, so I'm not sure the argument holds up.
Bryant
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Behind the Aegis
(53,980 posts)Though some only mock certain beliefs, which can be indicative of something deeper.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)In what ways did faith impact your presidency?
I've always been fully committed to separation of church and state. I didn't permit worship services in the White House as had been done earlier. I was careful not ever to promote my own Christianity as superior in America to other religions, because I feel all religious believers should be treated carefully. At the same time, there's no way I could ever separate my Christian belief from my obligations as a naval officer, as a governor or as President, or from my work now. I can't say my commitments as President were free of my beliefs. We worship the Prince of Peace, and one of the key elements of my life as President in challenging times was to keep our country peaceful. I was able to deal with challenges without launching a missile or dropping a bomb. My commitment to peace was an aspect of my Christian faith. Also, basic human rights are obviously compatible with the teachings of Jesus Christ, and I made human rights a foundation of foreign policy.
You wrote that you made every effort to keep a pledge that you would not lie. "Still, I was not able to keep 100 percent of my campaign promises," you said. Did you have disappointments or regrets about your presidency?
When you're campaigning, you don't really have an awareness of the limitations of a President in dealing with Congress. Sometimes I made promises, but I had four years instead of an anticipated eight years. I never did violate my promise to tell the truth. I've been asked if there was ever any incompatibility between my duties as President and my duties as a Christian. There was one thing that bothered me and that was the issue of abortion. I've never believed Jesus Christ would approve of abortion except when the mother's life is in danger or as a result of incest or rape. Of course, the Supreme Court ruled differently. Within the ruling, I tried to minimize abortion as best I could. On the issue of abortion my beliefs are contradictory to what the Supreme Court ruled.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2012/januaryweb-only/interview-jimmy-carter.html
Logical
(22,457 posts)ProdigalJunkMail
(12,017 posts)Carter can't and will gladly admit it...
sP
thucythucy
(8,086 posts)an actual encounter with what they believe to be some form of divinity.
These experiences have been had by very many people over many thousands of years. Depending on the time and the culture, this experience is either interpreted through the lens of the current religious belief, or it is so shattering of the cultural paradigms that those who experience it first hand found an entirely new belief system.
Either way, these are actual lived experiences that, for whatever reason, can't be explained other than through religious terms.
Read William James' "The Varieties of Religious Experience," especially his lecture on mysticism.
Now, there is obviously a lot of rote, corruption, even outright denial among religious people regarding these original epiphanies. But what makes it different from "creative speculation" is that it is, in fact, an actual experience, not "speculation." To ask those people to deny that experience, I would think, would be like asking you to pretend you don't have a computer screen in front of your eyes at this very moment.
This is all being written with the understanding that your question is genuine, and not just more flamebait. Hard to tell these days.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)one of the regulars, routinely browbeating truthers for their alleged lack of scientific understanding, mentioned that he occasionally taught Sunday School. Hoo Boy... I never let him live it down.