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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOrganic farms yield less produce, require more land: study
Organic farming may yield up to a third less of some crop types, according to a study proposing a hybrid with conventional agriculture as the best way to feed the world without destroying it.
Organic farming seeks to limit the use of chemical pesticides and fertilisers, but critics suggest lower crop yields require bigger swaths of land for the same output as conventional farms.
This would mean parts of forests and other natural areas being turned into farmland, undoing some of the environmental gains of organic tilling methods, they say.
The new study by Canadian and American researchers, published in Nature Wednesday, found that organic yields are indeed as much as 34 percent lower for some crops -- 25 percent less overall.
http://www.france24.com/en/20120425-organic-farms-yield-less-produce-require-more-land-study
niyad
(113,524 posts)FarCenter
(19,429 posts)http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature11069.html
Abstract
Affiliations
Department of Geography and Global Environmental and Climate Change Center, McGill University, Montreal, Quebec H2T 3A3, Canada
Verena Seufert &
Navin Ramankutty
Institute on the Environment (IonE), University of Minnesota, 1954 Buford Avenue, St Paul, Minnesota 55108, USA
Jonathan A. Foley
Contributions
V.S. and N.R. designed the study. V.S. compiled the data and carried out data analysis. All authors discussed the results and contributed to writing the paper.
Competing financial interests
The authors declare no competing financial interests.
Organic farming is rarely enough
http://www.nature.com/news/organic-farming-is-rarely-enough-1.10519
Review Article
obamanut2012
(26,103 posts)FarCenter
(19,429 posts)via the University of Minnesota Institute on the Environment. $2.2 million in 2011.
http://www.geog.mcgill.ca/~nramankutty/ProspectiveStudents/ProspectiveStudents.html
http://www.moore.org/grants-awarded.aspx
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)FarCenter
(19,429 posts)yellowcanine
(35,701 posts)Maybe it is true but just saying it is not enough.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Here is also a link the U of MN Institute on the Environment. http://environment.umn.edu/
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)jwirr
(39,215 posts)guess that you are correct. Just like the University in Ames Iowa is a good college but into agrobiz totally.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)having signs in the same *state* invalidates all research done at public universities within that state?
jwirr
(39,215 posts)to believe that the University might have some interest in that business. I actually think the study is correct but to me it makes no difference. I raise my own organic foods.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)Background
Established in 2000 in CA.
Founded by Gordon and Betty Moore. Dr. Moore is co-founder of Intel Corporation and is most widely known for his 1965 prediction that the number of transistors the semi-conductor industry would be able to place on a computer chip would double every 12 months. What was intended as a rule of thumb quickly became known as "Moore's Law" and a guiding principle for the delivery of ever more powerful computer chips at proportionately lower costs.
The foundation seeks to advance environmental conservation and scientific research around the world and improve the quality of life in the San Francisco Bay Area.
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As responsible stewards of the resources entrusted to them, the foundation forms and invests in partnerships to achieve significant, lasting and measurable results in environmental conservation, science and the San Francisco Bay Area. The majority of funding is directed to organizations whose work supports the foundation's initiatives in its three major program areas.
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The foundation's Environmental Conservation Program works to change the ways in which people use terrestrial, freshwater, and coastal marine ecosystems to conserve critical ecological systems and functions, while allowing sustainable use.
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The goals of the foundation's San Francisco Bay Area Program are to improve the quality of life by sustaining healthy Bay Area ecosystems and conserving critical landscapes; enhancing science education and learning especially for children, and improving the quality of care provided to adults during and following hospitalization.
Science
The foundation's Science Program aims to make a significant impact on the development of provocative, transformative scientific research, and increase knowledge in emerging fields.
Fields of Interest
Subjects
Environment
Science
Selected Grants
The following grants were reported in 2010:
$8,639,634 to Tides Canada Foundation, Vancouver, Canada. For Pacific North Coast Integrated Management Area Initiative to produce an Integrated Marine Management Plan, payable over 1 year.
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$2,446,138 to Stanford University, Stanford, CA. To study coral resilience in the field and via sea anemone model system, payable over 1 year.
$566,953 to New Forests Advisory, San Francisco, CA. To design ecosystem service products and incentives for private landowners in Brazil, payable over 1 year.
$550,000 to University of California, San Francisco, CA. For Magnet Readiness to improve nursing-related patient outcomes, payable over 1 year.
$299,550 to Nature Conservancy, Durham, NC. To make Global Scale Conservation Datasets available on Google's Earth Engine, payable over 1 year.
________
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CreekDog
(46,192 posts)for a while.
get the analogy?
obamanut2012
(26,103 posts)Probably.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Because they came to the wrong conclusions?
I suspect if they'd found the opposite you wouldn't be fretting over whether they got their funding from a pro-organic source.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)are flush with billions of dollars just like Monsanto.
There IS such a thing as 'scale', you know?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)not millions or hundreds of thousands, what with research scientists being so flush with money right now that they won't even bother applying for a grant if it's less than "billions of dollars".
Look the point is that this person came to the conclusion that it was Monsanto based on nothing other than the results. There were no indicators in the research that it was biased, merely the result didn't suit him/her.
That's pretty silly. So the conclusion came first and then the science was adjusted to match it: "good science" (that which supported the conclusion) is kept but "bad science" (that which did not support the conclusion) is clearly put out exclusively by monsanto and must be rejected.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)I'm surprised it doesn't look like a piece of licorice now that you're done.
First - haha on you're 'scientists being bribed' crap. That's not what I'm saying. To set up research that looks legit takes a lot of money. It's not just about bribing scientists (if that even happens and I don't think it does - directly) it's a whole system of deception. Set up a large 'research' study, maybe a whole research centre that is affiliated with a reputable university. Donate lots to that university. Then you need to sit on the board of major scientific research publishers. Then, when your study is done, you need a system of distribution for the 'results'. You do know that most of the 'medical breakthroughs' on the news are submitted by large corporations looking to get promotion for their particular 'discovery'? Same for scientific research. If you can agree that most news in the country is controlled by the right (as most aware dems know) then that particular 'research news' is usually slanted towards what those companies would like you to hear.
You say that this person came the conclusion that it was Monsanto based on nothing other than the results. I beg to differ - it's a pattern of behavior, this research didn't happen in a vacuum. Just the fact that the headline doesn't match with what the long term results indicates says more than knowing who are the real donors.
I see someone has already figured out who the front is. Quel surprise!
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)most medical research in this country is done at public universities.
You have built up this whole conspiracy to "prove" that *any* negative data on organic farming must be part of a vast conspiracy.
Is it at all possible in your mind that organic farming might not be ideal on every single criteria?
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)organic farming is not ideal in the transition years. I'll give it that. I'll also say organic farming is likely more labour intensive and has a smaller profit margin. I don't have my mind made up. I listen to science. I just know, from following medical research, that there are often layers upon layers of funding and when you get to the bottom of it, you find out there are plenty of conflicts of interest. I haven't 'built' anything, it's just the way it is. BTW, medical research can be done AT public universities, but they still have donors to those universities, they don't operate in some sort of gov't only funding paradise. And sometimes those donors have ties to industry. I'm sorry that because I'd like to know the sources of all funding for each study cited that makes me a conspiracy theorist in your mind.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)remaining skeptical and waiting on the science to pan out and automatically declaring any research conclusions that you don't like to be the product of an industrial conspiracy (as the person I was responding to did). You seem to have forgotten that. The comment was that it "must" be Monsanto funding this. Based solely on the conclusions. Which were pretty mild. They didn't say "only spraying with Monsanto brand pesticides is acceptable, all other pesticides don't work and organic farming is impossible!".
For instance: if you were to say that maybe vaccines have a tie to autism, maybe not let's wait on see. That would be acceptable. If instead you were to say autism is caused by vaccines and any study that shows otherwise is obviously propaganda put out by big pharma, well that's a whole different animal.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)I'm naturally skeptical because of what I've learned in my marketing courses. So many of these studies are marketed to report conclusions that didn't even happen in the actual study. I don't immediately disregard, but I do have skepticism when I see any anti-organic studies. If I do some digging and find out there is no conflicts of interest, fine, but not too long ago here in Canada, there was a documentary about even the highest, most respected academic minds here were not declaring possible conflicts of interest on their research and NO ONE knew, or was calling them on it until this documentary. Apparently that's the general way of operating according to interviews with plenty of other universities around North America, so I generally come from a place of skepticism first and foremost. And I see from re-reading this study that the headline does not match the conclusion, which support my original marketing theory. I have no problems waiting for further studies. I generally don't automatically accept a conclusion from one specific study, I wait for the entire body of evidence (and then make sure one side isn't funded by X while the other side is funded by Y).
yellowcanine
(35,701 posts)I could be wrong but that is what it looks like.
hedgehog
(36,286 posts)"After an initial decline in yields during the first few years of transition, the organic system soon rebounded to match or surpass the conventional system. "
http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/fst30years
Organic corn yields were 31% higher than conventional in years of drought. These drought yields are remarkable when compared to genetically engineered drought tolerant varieties which saw increases of only 6.7% to 13.3% over conventional (non-drought resistant) varieties.
Corn and soybean crops in the organic systems tolerated much higher levels of weed competition than their conventional counterparts, while producing equivalent yields. This is especially significant given the rise of herbicide-resistant weeds in conventional systems, and speaks to the increased health and productivity of the organic soil (supporting both weeds and crop yields).
http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/fst30years/yields
libinnyandia
(1,374 posts)on that.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)and consistent with earlier studies. The reason organic farming yields are lower is usually tied to soil depletion.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)In the Nature review article (link above) it says:
This limitation can be removed by either rotating with nitrogen fixing crops, which requires more land, or by using nitrogen fertilizer.
The Haber process for fixing nitrogen by using natural gas was critical in developing modern agriculture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)and some nitrogen-fixing crops like legumes have market value which is beneficial to the farmers. Even without waiting for full market value, the nitrogen-fixing can be accomplished in a couple of months for fast growing covers like small seeded fava beans -- the maximum nitrogen-fixing occurs when the plant is still flowering. The immature plants can either be tilled under or in a no-till system, harvested for leaves with stems composted.
That said, there are also OMRI-listed high nitrogen fertilizer products on the market and thus heavy nitrogen feeding requirements alone aren't a barrier to better yields from organic methods.
on edit: FarCenter's link downthread has the following:
The key limit to further yield increases via organic methods appears to be nitrogenlarge doses of synthetic fertilizer can keep up with high demand from crops during the growing season better than the slow release from compost, manure or nitrogen-fixing cover crops. Of course, the cost of using 171 million metric tons of synthetic nitrogen fertilizer is paid in dead zones at the mouths of many of the world's rivers. These anoxic zones result from nitrogen-rich runoff promoting algal blooms that then die and, in decomposing, suck all the oxygen out of surrounding waters. "To address the problem of [nitrogen] limitation and to produce high yields, organic farmers should use best management practices, supply more organic fertilizers or grow legumes or perennial crops," Seufert says.
IOW, looking simply at yield differences ignores the cost of those high yields in terms of runoff damage.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)harming fish, and other aspects of ecosystem.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)productivity of that soil. I am not sure that is true but we seem to have to use more and more fertilizer every year.
musiclawyer
(2,335 posts)In the industrialized counties, it's not a zero sum game. You don't need to cut down trees for more farms. Detroit could feed itself and half of Michigan if it just reclaimed its unused real estate as organic farms
If we are talking about feeding the third world, it's more a matter of water and political will than destruction of more land.
obamanut2012
(26,103 posts)NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)gratuitous
(82,849 posts)Study after study over the last eight years show that the U.S. wastes anywhere from one quarter to one half of its food production. We tighten up our food handling practices, and we could all eat organic just fine. But a healthier population doesn't fit the business model for a lot of industrial concerns, so that's out. Better to just bad-mouth organic farming.
obamanut2012
(26,103 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)obamanut2012
(26,103 posts)All that land used to grow corn to feed cattle can be used to grow more veggies, right?
Who funded this study?
The Study fails to look at the big picture.
Even with Factory farming, a pound of red meat is 3 times as inefficient as a pound of veggies/grain.
Unless people moderate their fast food-meat guzzling ways a bit, how can one see any improvement?
I think you're lowballing that.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)"Unless people moderate their fast food-meat guzzling ways a bit..."
Produce is not cheap, at least not where I shop.
But one can potentially feed a family from the McDonald's Dollar Menu at generally low cost.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)certain industries are subsidized (grain, beef) and others are not (produce).
Produce here is so insanely expensive - the other day I paid $7 for a bag of apples that lasts my 4 kids 3 days for snacks. (1/day/kid). Yet I can buy a large box of 32 sugar filled granola bars for $8. WTF is wrong with that picture?
meaculpa2011
(918 posts)for a family of four costs nearly $14 with tax. I can feed my family of four a healthy dinner, bought in the local supermarket and prepared in my own kitchen for less. Last night: Grilled chicken, butternut squash, romaine/tomato/cucumber salad and grilled asparagus. All in, less than $14 and we live just outside NYC.
The most expensive item on the menu? The kids had soda. Along with the soda they have to consume a lecture from their parents about how corrosive that stuff is. Each 16 ounce soda costs $1.29 (they bought it themselves). At $1.49 per pound, each grilled chicken breast costs about 75 cents. I must confess though, the other night I got a call on my way home from work. "Dad, will you bring me home a bottle of Coke?, Please." I did. The President should appoint a teenaged girl as U.S. Trade Representative.
Mom and Dad had a bit of wine with dinner, AKA Parenting Tonic. (Three-Buck Chuck from Trader Joe's)
We have to smash the myth that eating healthy is expensive. Fast food is expensive, even off the Dollar Menu. Plus, look at any fast-food joint. There are very few patrons eating dollar burgers and value fries.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)I could have 2 double cheesburgers, a value fry and a value soda for $4 and change, while the one of the salads McDonalds offers is like $6 or $7
Every penny counts in these tough times.
I do agree, though, eating healthy doesn't have to be expensive. I just wish there could be more healthier options on the dollar menu.
I don't think unhealthy foods should be on the dollar menu. But again, no one's forcing anyone to eat the unhealthy options, and McDonalds does advertise their healthier fare.
I guess, in the end, its up to the consumer to take responsibility for what they eat.
meaculpa2011
(918 posts)snotty, but if you want a salad why would you go to McDonald's?
The reason that healthier choices aren't plentiful in fast-food outlets (I refuse to call them restaurants) and the prepared food section of the supermarket is that they don't sell.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)They're one of the few things I eat there.
Had a Chicken Cobb salad during my last trip to Duchess as well.
yellowcanine
(35,701 posts)It is possible to raise cattle on grass. Kind of hard for people to eat grass though.
Mendocino
(7,504 posts).The day is coming quickly when meat will be only available to the very rich. We may as well transition to a plant-based or mostly plant- based food sources as soon as possible. Meat is like oil, as long as you are willing to pay a higher and higher cost for it, you will be able to get it. But unlike oil there is an lower priced alternative, plants.
The Midway Rebel
(2,191 posts)More land use but no pesticides, herbicides or fertilizers that pollute, lakes, river and streams and degrade the environment and destroy ecosytems. This is not a tough call for me.
LynneSin
(95,337 posts)yellowcanine
(35,701 posts)Not sure that any conclusions can be drawn one way or the other. Some of the pesticides used on organic food are more acutely toxic than those used in conventional food production. So it all comes down to whether they were properly used or not and whether pre harvest intervals were followed.
Lost-in-FL
(7,093 posts)MineralMan
(146,324 posts)Do you have a link?
Lost-in-FL
(7,093 posts)Here's a link from an article I read from last year:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,775754,00.html
It includes some nice graphics too.
http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-70665.html
MineralMan
(146,324 posts)The images looked like a real building.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Review article in Scientific American.
cali
(114,904 posts)jwirr
(39,215 posts)nations) we would have a lot of unused land without cutting down the forests.
Pisces
(5,602 posts)my fruit and vegetables minus poison thank you very much. Our neighborhood is thinking about starting a coop organic garden.
I think this is the only way to ensure that it is truly organic.
sendero
(28,552 posts)... well I don't know what to say.
I still eat organic when possible and of course if you stop larding your plants with nutrients they will produce less.
But what they do produce is of much higher quality.
NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)but the non-organic produce is like stuff grown on steroids-- pumped up with stuff more cell mass but lower nutrient concentrations.
sendero
(28,552 posts).. and lower in taste as well.
quaker bill
(8,224 posts)and I grow organic at home, because if I want sprayed food, I can just buy it.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)...and I would bet that proper organics would completely obliterate anything Monasto could put out, by miles.
humus
(135 posts)The tomato was grown in Mexico from a hybrid seed patented by a
genetic-engineering firm. The farm was fumigated with methyl-
bromide, one of the most ozone-depleting chemicals in existence, the
doused with toxic pesticides; the toxic byproducts of manufacturing
the pesticide ended up in the world's largest toxic waste dump, in
Alabama. The tomato was packaged in a plastic tray covered with
plastic wrap, and placed on a cardboard box. The plastic was
manufactured with chlorine, a process that produces extremely toxic
byproducts, in Point Comfort, Texas, while the cardboard originated
in an old-growth forest in British Columbia, was manufactured in the
Great Lakes, and was then shipped to the Mexican farm. The entire
process was fueled by oil from the Gulf of Campeche, Mexico. The
packed tomatoes were artificially ripened through the application of
ethylene, then transported in refrigerated trucks cooled by ozone-
depleting hydrochlorofluorocarbons to consumers throughout North
America. At several points in the process, workers and nearby
residents risked potentially harmful health effects through exposure
to various toxins. And needless to say, a tomato thus produced
doesn't offer much in the way of flavor, especially when compared to
a mouth-watering `Brandywine' tomato grown organically in the
backyard."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/08/us-food-idUSTRE7272FN20110308
(Reuters) - Many farmers in developing nations can double food production within a decade by shifting to ecological agriculture from use of chemical fertilizers and pesticides, a U.N. report showed on Tuesday.
Insect-trapping plants in Kenya and Bangladesh's use of ducks to eat weeds in rice paddies are among examples of steps taken to increase food for a world population that the United Nations says will be 7 billion this year and 9 billion by 2050.
"Agriculture is at a crossroads," according to the study by Olivier de Schutter, the U.N. Special Rapporteur on the right to food, in a drive to depress record food prices and avoid the costly oil-dependent model of industrial farming.
"Agroecology" could also make farms more resilient to the projected impact of climate change including floods, droughts and a rise in sea levels that the report said was already making fresh water near some coasts too salty for use in irrigation.
So far, eco-farming projects in 57 nations had shown average crop yield gains of 80 percent by tapping natural methods for enhancing soil and protecting against pests, it said.
Recent projects in 20 African countries had resulted in a doubling of crop yields within three to 10 years. Those lessons could be widely mimicked elsewhere, it said.
To cherish what remains of the Earth and to foster its renewal is our only legitimate hope of survival.
- Wendell Berry
Lars77
(3,032 posts)If it did not, "conventional (chemical)" farming would have no purpose.
humus
(135 posts)If it did not, McDonald's would have no purpose.
Lars77
(3,032 posts)PuraVidaDreamin
(4,109 posts)including companion planting, utilizing every space to its full potential.
IMO the yields would put monoculture to shame.
mainer
(12,023 posts)I came across an article that said organic farms do use herbicides (pre-treating soil before the seed crop is planted), and if you use the correct ones, it's still considered acceptable.
nobodyspecial
(2,286 posts)In order to remain certified, organic farms cannot use traditional chemical herbicides. Organic herbicides rely on ingredients like vinegar and citric acid.
All Down Organic Grass and Weed Killer
Source: SummerSet Products, Inc. Bloomington, MN
Active Ingredients: Citric Acid - 5.0%, Garlic - .2%,
Other Ingredients: Acetic Acid, Yucca Extracts and water 94.8%
Ground Force Organic Herbicide
Source: Abby Laboratories, Inc., Ramsey, MN
Active Ingredients: Citric acid - 10.0%, Garlic extract - 0.2%
Inactive Ingredients: Vinegar, yucca extract and water - 89.8%
Burn Out II - Weed and Grass Killer
Source: St. Gabriel Laboratories, Orange, Virginia
Active Ingredients: Clove Oil - 4.0%, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate - 3.0%
Other Ingredients: Vinegar, Lecithin, Citric Acid, Mineral Oil and water - 93%
Everything Must Go!TM
Source: Farm Extracts, Inc., St. Paul, MN
Active Ingredients: Citric Acid - 10.0%, Garlic Oil - 5.0%, Lauryl sulfate - 1.0%
Inert Ingredients: Acetic Acid and water - 84%
http://www.extension.umn.edu/yardandgarden/YGLNews/YGLN-Mar0106.html
Organic Herbicides
Organic Herbicides Ingredients include concentrated d- limonene, clove oil, cinnamon oil, vinegar, and citric acid. These herbicides are non-selective and non-systemic, meaning any plant sprayed will be affected, and they kill the above surface foliage of plants.
Non-Selective Synthetic herbicides can "select" which types of plants the chemicals will effect. Organic herbicides cannot do this and so are "non-selective."
Non-Systemic Synthetic herbicides go into the system of plants, organic herbicides do not, and so are "non-systemic."
Note to Certified Organic Farmers: While we do our best to stay current with product OMRI listings, be sure to check with your certifying organization for a current list of approved (or banned) products.
http://www.groworganic.com/weed-pest-control/organic-weed-control/organic-herbicide.html
mainer
(12,023 posts)it was in something like Smithsonian or Nat Geo about one or two years ago, and it talked about how even organic farms must use herbicides to clean up the soil prior to planting, because weeds would otherwise completely choke out their crop. I don't remember the herbicide they mentioned, but it didn't sound like anything you listed.
I remember I was very surprised to read that.
nobodyspecial
(2,286 posts)or any other one that backs up your contention that organic farms use herbicides. If they do use anything other than the ones I have outlined it is NOT an organic farm.
Organic Herbicides and Bioherbicides
A limited number of products have been developed that organic growers can spray for weed control. Natural-product herbicides allowed for organic production, including acetic acid (concentrated vinegar), essential oils, and natural allelochemicals, are nonselective contact herbicides most useful for spot treatments of, for example, a localized infestation by a new weed species, or poison ivy on fencerows or near a farm stand. The Organic Materials Review Institute lists products that are allowed and those not allowed for use on organic farms, including herbicide products. A few bioherbicides based on specific fungal pathogens have been developed against specific weed species that have become especially problematic in particular regions. At this time, however, organic herbicides and bioherbicides play a minor role in the organic weed control toolbox. See the related article Can I Use This Input On My Organic Farm? for further information.
http://www.extension.org/pages/18532/an-organic-weed-control-toolbox
Find me one thing that backs up your contention other than this vague something I read one time... Like I said, they may have used the term herbicide, but it would have had to have meant a natural one.
piratefish08
(3,133 posts)land has to be synthetic free for 3 YEARS prior to calling a crop organic.
certain buffer zones need to be adhered to as well if neighboring farmers are non-organic......
manure, compost and limestone are allowed for use.
mileage may vary in other states - i have no idea....
piratefish08
(3,133 posts)we as a nation have agreed with our wallets to trade nutrition and a farming industry for low cost, nutrition-less, poison shit.
what a stupid fucking argument.