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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCBS Poll: 85% of Democrats approve of a Clinton candidacy
Democrats are similarly concerned with ideological purity: 63 percent say it's more important to have a nominee who agrees with them, while 35 percent say it's more important to pick a winner.
Most of the popular anticipation is coalescing around former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.
Eighty-five percent of Democrats would like Clinton to dive in, while 11 percent want her to stay out.
Her closest competitor, Vice President Joe Biden, is sought by only 40 percent of Democrats. Thirty-eight percent want Biden to stay on the sidelines.
Twenty-three percent say Massachusetts Sen. Elizabeth Warren, a darling of liberal activists, should launch a bid, but 20 percent disagree.
Beyond those three, Democrats' excitement about their potential field is lacking. Only 16 percent want New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo to run, while 18 percent disagree. Twelve percent would like to see Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders, an independent who caucuses with Democrats, to run, while 16 percent want Sanders to keep his day job. Three percent want former Gov. Martin O'Malley, D-Maryland, to run, but 13 percent don't. And 6 percent of voters want former Sen. Jim Webb, D-Virginia, to run, but 14 percent disagree.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/republicans-want-mitt-romney-jeb-bush-to-run-for-president-in-2016/
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Renew Deal
(81,866 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)The poll that is referenced doesn't even mention HRC's negatives among Democrats. Don't take my word for it. Read the Democracy Corps (Carville-Greenberg consulting) poll linked here: http://www.politicususa.com/2015/01/18/poll-hillary-clinton-comfortably-leads-mitt-romney-crushes-jeb-bush.html
Renew Deal
(81,866 posts)This is a CBS poll
http://www.scribd.com/doc/252989106/CBS-News-Poll-Campaign-2016-1-18-15
That said, the wording used in the CBS poll cannot be accurately described as a push poll:
"Q101.intro. Im going to read you a list of names. For each please tell me if you would like to see them run for president of the United States in 2016 or not or whether you dont know enough about that person to say:"
leveymg
(36,418 posts)My bad. Would like to see a poll that captures the intensity of likes and dislikes about each candidate. A Q-score. I believe that would be more significant to the outcome of the general election than one that asks whether the respondent wants to see Clinton, Biden, Cuomo, etc. run.
If asked the same question, I might respond that I'd like to see Hillary run, as the rest of the present field just does not appear viable at this time. That assessment might change over time.
Have you seen a Q-score for Hillary?
leveymg
(36,418 posts)According to tracking numbers, as many people polled now view her unfavorably as favorably. 46% to 46% on 1/10/15. It seems the closer we get to her announcement, the less she is liked.
Here's the track based upon an aggregation of a number of polls: http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/hillary-clinton-favorable-rating
She isn't inevitable.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)Democrats included. The fact that her negatives keep going up and her positives down should make one pause before calling her inevitable, or even the best candidate.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)of any poll.
Negatives are always higher in well known candidates. The advantage of Hillary is that most people have already made up their minds about her -- we already know that the number who dislike her is a minority.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)take a look at the three graphs on that page -- http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/hillary-clinton-favorable-rating#!selectedpoll=21576 -- one showing favorable/unfavorables for HRC over a five year period and two others for the Democratic and Republican parties, at the bottom of the same page. Click each for a full view
We see the trend lines for HRC converging with rising unfavorables and falling favorables since the Nov 14 election, the one for the Democratic Party as a brand does not show such a dramatic change. As it becomes clearer that she will likely be the candidate, voters polled (Democrats and Republicans) clearly like her less and less.
Consider that fact. It shouldn't be ignored, even by her supporters.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)The less well known have fewer negatives -- till media exposure drives them up, too. Hillary's are about what I'd expect based on her very high profile ever since she was First Lady.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)The fact that Hillary is saddled with high unfavorables was observed by no less than candidate Obama. In December 2007, he observed about the "inevitability" argument for Clinton, and that it isn't really such an advantage: "This argument is being pushed, by the way, by a candidate who starts off with 47 percent disapproval ratings," he said to laughs. "You know so, I'm not going to mention names, but I mean the notion that my ability or electability argument is being made by someone who starts off with almost half the country not being willing to vote for" he paused, to more laughs "them doesn't make much sense." See, http://www.fosters.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071221/GJNEWS_01/825658630
The closer she comes to being the inevitable candidate, the less voters (Democrats as well as Repubs) seem to like her. She didn't end up being the candidate in 2008 for largely this reason. She's vulnerable again to a challenge for the nomination if a plausible contender were to emerge, and we should be concerned that the same principle would extend to the general election, particularly if the GOP candidate was able to (re)frame himself as a competent technocrat, rather than a Right-wing firebreather.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)But if she is the nominee and we get behind her -- as her supporters got behind Obama -- there is no reason to think she can't win the general. The Rethug candidates, once they are known, will also have strong negatives.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)On domestic policy, there's little to quarrel with her, except that she is a mainstream Wall Street centrist on financial market regulation, trade, and economic fairness.
But, on foreign policy, her track record is with the neocons, and that scares the crap out of many of us, so much so that there is a real reluctance to do anything that will put her into power. It's going to be a difficult election choosing among known or perceived evils for many on the Democratic Left.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)It's all in the questions you ask, and how the scores are tabulated. Polls that measure intensity of like-dislike -- Q scores -- are most meaningful, in my opinion. Hillary has always had extraordinarily high negatives, particularly as she gets closer to elections.
If anything, her negatives are higher now than they were at this point in the '08 cycle. Known historical outcomes and variations in statistical methods shouldn't be ignored - even if you support her.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)I don't want to run up the threadcount any more on this OP. The title and message are fundamentally misleading - sure, 85% approve of an open nomination process (that includes HRC), but that's not the same thing as supporting her as a candidate.
Acknowledge that, and we're on the same page. Otherwise, you're just another "Hillary is inevitable" flack.
Cha
(297,405 posts)sooo interesting to see where we are a year from now.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)third and fourth term. This country needs him. But I'm certain he'll be happy to leave the White House in 2017. The disrespect he and his family have had to endure must be difficult for him.
Cha
(297,405 posts)last two years of the Obama Presidency~ May We(Yes We Can) all have Good Fortune for our Country and the Planet. It is a Planetary thing, too.
calimary
(81,367 posts)He's become - with apologies to Lewis Carroll and grammar lovers everywhere - "interestinger and interestinger."
Who'd have thought he'd have the wind at his back after that last election? He seems able to turn the tables on very nearly everyone's expectations.
My disappointments about him are FAR outweighed by my satisfactions with him. And they always have been.
And I would ask the question again - how does the alternative work out for ya? President mccain (and even more horrifying - Vice President palin) or President romney?
I will always take the "good" over the "perfect," even when I like the "perfect" better. Because I've always found that "perfect" is nearly unattainable. And your idea of "perfect" very seldom satisfies the next guy's idea of "perfect."
Cha
(297,405 posts)To the last two years of the Obama Presidency.. may it work out well for all of us on Planet Earth!
ChosenUnWisely
(588 posts)if the majority of the party wants Hillary, then the majority of the party will no longer reflect my values and I will end my relationship with the new corporate democratic party.
Things Change.
wyldwolf
(43,868 posts)ChosenUnWisely
(588 posts)wyldwolf
(43,868 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,028 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)You know the kind without long term memory and allegiance to unfettered corporate states
Divernan
(15,480 posts)MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)nor, do I think there's anything FUNNY about that measurable fact. I think it's a damned shame.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Not really fodder for an alert, but the post and the attitude stink all the same.
wyldwolf
(43,868 posts)Beg them to stay? LOL. No.
demwing
(16,916 posts)or how about ANY reaction that doesn't involve being rude?
wyldwolf
(43,868 posts)demwing
(16,916 posts)I should have guessed that you weren't really interested
wyldwolf
(43,868 posts)On the contrary, I find it fascinating you think politeness or silence is the way to respond to a whiner threatening to leave the party if he can't have his way.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Sometimes, it hurts...
demwing
(16,916 posts)is Truth?
I don't think you understand what "Truth" means.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)
and what a silly comment to make when another person's post asks to examine what you might think is true..
demwing
(16,916 posts)You haven't addressed any truths, or challenged any perceptions.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Feel better now?
demwing
(16,916 posts)the way I feel has nothing to do with you - good or bad--but you don't really care, so why pretend?
Really, why the pretense?
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)Were you trying to hiss at me for commenting that the truth hurts? And,when I responded, "Okay, feel better?", thinking you'd be appeased, which must have been pretending on my part, I guess I should have taken the bait and continued to be as rude as you...
But, since you think I "don't really care", I will admit that couldn't agree MORE with the above post that if the majority of the party wants Hillary, then the majority of the party will no longer reflect my values and I will end my relationship with the new corporate democratic party.
That may not be YOUR credo, but it certainly represents others in this thread. Let it go at that, or better yet, put me on "ignore".
demwing
(16,916 posts)and therefore, I apologize for mine. I'm sorry.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)You and I have something in common, and we're both stand-up about it!
Best, MMM
joshdawg
(2,651 posts)They are a lot more corporate than the Dems.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Laura PourMeADrink
(42,770 posts)Democratic Party alternatives?
Autumn
(45,120 posts)Of course there are no viable alternatives yet.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)zeemike
(18,998 posts)There can be only two choices and you are ether one or the other...with us or against us...you love or you hate.
Yep, it has been so successful for the right the left is now using it.
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)your vote to B. Remember, Republicans ALWAYS vote no matter what (see midterm 2014 as proof) even if they hate the Republican who's been chosen by the majority because they hate Democrats more.
ChosenUnWisely
(588 posts)truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)Welcome to DU, btw--we need all the help we can get.
joshdawg
(2,651 posts)Here is where I was going with what I said:
If you don't vote, republicans win.
If you vote third party, republicans win.
If you vote republican, the country loses
So, if you don't vote Democratic or don't vote at all, republicans win.
Are you still adamant about leaving the Democratic Party?
ChosenUnWisely
(588 posts)"Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection
that your vote is never lost." John Quincy Adams
My vote, my life, my choice....
Besides why would I want to continue a relationship with an organization that no longer reflects my values.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)in the real world.
Just by staying home from the polls, or voting for a "principled" but non-viable candidate, you can take away their heating assistance or Social Security check. You can prevent them from getting an education or staying in the country they were born in. You can increase the possibility that the bridge near their house may cave in, or that mental health assistance will be taken away.
Principles, as they say, have consequences: and not always the ones you expect.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)If all you do is give people reasons to vote against your opponent, you lose.
CrispyQ
(36,487 posts)When you vote for republicans who have a D behind their name, republicans win.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)joshdawg
(2,651 posts)I'll have to add that one to the list. Thank you.
Divernan
(15,480 posts)Not exactly what the OP hoped for!
newfie11
(8,159 posts)og1
(51 posts)Hillary is nothing more than a wallstreet door mat that says welcome to corporate interests!
Dawgs
(14,755 posts)drynberg
(1,648 posts)The Hill would be disastrous, and frankly we don't have four years to spend pushing "centrists" policies...nor greasing the palms of Wall Street, et al. So, I wouldn't burn that Dem Bridge. Congress also has to be without all the blockage we've seen in the last six years, so those races hold great importance too. It is very early, and I believe The Hill's 85% will dwindle a lot in the next 6 months, at least that's where I'm fixing my star.
raindaddy
(1,370 posts)The coronation of the darling of Wall Street has begun.. And they're comparing her with Joe Biden for God's sake. If third way Hillary has to face a traditional populist Democrat, most Democrats will choose the real deal. And when I say "Democrats" I'm including all the people who have already left the party in disgust.
Here's a poll you won't see from CBS, NBC, ABC,FOX etc, why more and more voters are leaving both parties every year. 42% of American now identify themselves as Independents and those numbers grow every year. So when they're polling "Democrats" we're only talking about 31% of the voters. Won't find clearer proof, people are becoming dissatisfied with the direction the Democratic party has taken. Hillary vs Bush is a perfect example of why..
Renew Deal
(81,866 posts)"And they're comparing her with Joe Biden for God's sake. If third way Hillary has to face a traditional populist Democrat, most Democrats will choose the real deal."
raindaddy
(1,370 posts)What I meant by "face" wasn't the name recognition factor in an early CBS "poll". But a comparison of ideologies as in a campaign.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)It can't be her legislative record while she was a Senator ... that was pretty much in lock step with Senator Sanders; it can't be her term as SoS, because that wasn't "corporate."
So I wonder ... why, other than the DU-talk, is HRC your political Democratic breaking point?
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)to promote US interests abroad? And trade and securing of contracts for businesses domiciled in the US, are in the interest of the US ... you know, jobs and stuff.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)... that contradicts your assertion:
Excerpts from link posted above:
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)brooklynite
(94,641 posts)Damned Third Way sellouts...
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Indydem
(2,642 posts)Last edited Mon Jan 19, 2015, 01:09 PM - Edit history (1)
While the DU has become a bastion of "progressive of GTFO" the reality of the Democratic Party is far more mainstream.
People don't hate the things that progressives hate, and they don't embrace their processes.
People want good jobs, the ability to pay for their own health care, and the ability to own a home and raise their family. Clinton may well hold the keys to that future for millions of Americans.
TheKentuckian
(25,028 posts)raise a family for which "millions"?
Indydem
(2,642 posts)The economy is shit. I know, I know, the Obama cheerleaders will tell us that it's great! But the truth is that the growth on Wall Street has had no effect on the average American. Progressives will say that this is all the fault of the 1% and that if we just took their money away somehow, everyone would be better off.
Clinton, I believe, takes a more pragmatic approach and realizes that you have to pick your enemies.
Bottom line, Bill Clinton was 10x the president than Barack Obama. If Hilary is half as good as Bill it will put the economy on the road to a real recovery.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)If Bill Clinton had to deal with the Media Barrage that HE himself brought into being by KILLING the fariness doctrine, he would have been incincerated. Add to this that he did NOT inherit the sheer mess W. did, W. who may very well rank with Ronny ray Gun as the president that did the most damage.
and
"But the truth is that the growth on Wall Street has had no effect on the average American"
To a large extent because Bill Clinton and Hillary keep defending the same rich people that want their heads on plates.
LuvNewcastle
(16,847 posts)They've gotten filthy stinking rich since he left office. Chelsea's rich too, and so is her hubby. The rich don't want their heads on plates; they all belong to the same club.
Divernan
(15,480 posts)Look up her in-laws - both former members of congress. Her father-in-law, or as some refer to him "felon-in-law" is Ed Mezvinsky
Ed Mezvinsky was sentenced in 2003 to serve 80 months in federal prison after pleading guilty to a massive fraud that prosecutors said amounted to a Ponzi scheme. He was released from custody in April 2008, but remains under federal probation supervision.
Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/mezvinsky.asp#W86TSmhCqGEkOYkR.99
After serving five years in federal prison, he was released in April 2008. He remained on federal probation until 2011, and still owes $9.4 million in restitution to his victims.
And the groom's mother, Marjorie Margolies? Well, she tried to file for bankruptcy but the bankruptcy judge wasn't having it. Somehow the female bankruptcy judge didn't believe a woman who had served in the US Congress when said woman whined that she had no knowledge of her family's finances because her husband took care of all finances.
Shortly thereafter, she filed for bankruptcy,[20] but failed to receive a discharge from her debts, based on 11 U.S.C. §727(a)(5). The court found Mezvinsky had failed to satisfactorily explain a significant loss of assets in the four years prior to her bankruptcy filing. The bankruptcy judge stated, in her published opinion, "I find that the Debtor has failed to satisfactorily explain the loss of approximately $775,000 worth of assets (the difference between the $810,000 represented in May 1996 and the $35,000 now claimed in her Amended Schedule B)." Sonders v. Mezvinsky (in re Mezvinsky), 265 B.R. 681, 694 (Bankr. E.D. Pa. 2001).
When she filed for bankruptcy, a judge rejected her assertion of ignorance in a scathing decision that, depending on how you read it, either calls her feminism into question or suggests she knows more than shes letting on. Her consistent response to questions asked by her creditors about the disposition of her assets is lack of knowledge or my husband handled it, a mantra that is completely at odds with her public persona, background, and accomplishments, the judge wrote.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2013/12/the-clinton-in-law-marjorie-margolies-100696_Page3.html#ixzz3PH7Y4Lsv
Who would HRC seat these 2 grifters next to at state dinners? Whomeve they might be, they'd better hang onto their wallets. Oh, and since Ed Mezvinsky's own mother-in-law was one of his fraud victims, HRC would be smart not to invest in her son-in-law's hedge fund.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)Remember her last book tour, supposed to endear her to the masses... We know how well THAT went. Open mouth insert foot....
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)And what's more ironic is the people that crucified her for it was FOX.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)do you really think 85% of Democrats do not know who she really is???
66 dmhlt
(1,941 posts)Divernan
(15,480 posts)If she became president, her family becomes the First Family. Covered by press all over the world, and symbolic of American values.
66 dmhlt
(1,941 posts)but rest assured if the genders were reversed there is no way in Hell anyone would make that claim.
Divernan
(15,480 posts)Oh, come on! Candidates' families are always put in the spotlight during campaigns. Ed Mezvinsky will be sought out for interviews, and in particular questioned about how much of that +$9 million he has repaid to his victims. Then the victims will be tracked down and interviewed. Relatives like that are unwelcome baggage. We're not talking about a DWI conviction here.
66 dmhlt
(1,941 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)so you are a little mixed up here...
BumRushDaShow
(129,224 posts)Fixed.
And as FYI, Clinton gutted the Federal Government -
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/budget/stories/020398pay.htm
"The era of big government is over"
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)error.
personally, I think both of them were/are presidents of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations.
just a bit of populist rhetoric thrown in the mix with very little follow-up. and the pitiful follow-up that happened was always made up for with things like "welfare reform" which negated any gains to the 99%.
TheKentuckian
(25,028 posts)economy?
Hell, may as well also ask what Bill did that Obama didn't but should have (not that I'm often confused with being an Obama cheerleader)?
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)NAFTA lost the US 92,000 Factories. Under Hillary we can finally rid ourselves of the Remainder!
GO HILARY!
Renew Deal
(81,866 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)on the global trade and TPP was discussed. And, a number of the people there were some of the big names in NAFT!!!
So obviously, she is all for the death of the American work force and the upward transfer of wealth!
(never mind, they also happen to be trade and global economics experts and never mind, her comments on what she would like to see come out of any trade deal ... all that is irrelevant when building the HRC bogeyman.)
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Divernan
(15,480 posts)Excellent link. Of course, none of her fanboys/girls will ever acknowledge the accuracy of ANY criticism of her. It's getting so boring when HRC's supporters have nothing to contribute other than asking for links to materials which has been published over and over on DU. and/or elsewhere. I'm about ready to start telling them to just Google. The only advantage in responding to them is to get the word out to new DU members, and to hammer home her shortcomings, yet again. It's getting to be like shooting fish in a barrel.
Your link is to pro-corporate Business Week, which of course supports TPP & applauds HRC's LEADING PART IN DRAFTING TPP.
Shes pressed the case for U.S. business in Cambodia, Singapore, Vietnam, Indonesia, and other countries in Chinas shadow. Shes also taken a leading part in drafting the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the free-trade pact that would give U.S. companies a leg up on their Chinese competitors.
reddread
(6,896 posts)and facts mean nothing to the pushers.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)I didn't have time earlier.
We can't have this corporate/wall street rep as our only choice. Scary as hell, it is.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)Elect-her-and-see is getting mighty old. Is there evidence of a secret progressive agenda that Clinton is going to unveil?
sendero
(28,552 posts).. did more to kill all the things you claim you love than any single Republican, including Reagan. He gave you the repeal of Glass Stegall, the passage of the Commodity Futures Modernization Act (look it up, folks should REALLY know that these things are), he gave you the 'end of welfare as we know it', he gave you "free" trade with China, he gave you NAFTA, more H1Bs and much more.
With HRC you can have all that plus warmongering.
But I guess as long as someone SAYS the right things what they actually DO doesn't matter.
snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)its like the DU version of FOX News....
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Meaningless poll about name recognition only at this point. Republicans get the same numbers with Clinton intimate family friend Jeb Bush. People make different decisions when the election gets close and they actually look at the candidates.
riversedge
(70,260 posts)RiverLover
(7,830 posts)wyldwolf
(43,868 posts)RiverLover
(7,830 posts)This isn't exactly a meaningful poll.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Many of whom still have landlines. So among the 65 and older crowd (who mostly vote Republican anyway), more older Dems love them some Hillary.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)blackspade
(10,056 posts)The M$M continues to set the narrative for low information voters.
They treat the presidency like a high school popularity contest.
ChosenUnWisely
(588 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Maybe we should require folks pass a civics test before they can vote.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)maybe we should have some kind of standards for the media. (thanks, Bill!)
LuvNewcastle
(16,847 posts)No surprise. We'll see how voters react to each candidate as they speak and meet the crowd on the campaign trail. That's when excitement builds toward particular candidates.
Let them all have their say and then we'll see who the people want.
Polls like this mean nothing when no one has even gotten into the race yet. The party hasn't even begun.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Even more so than 2008, I would imagine.
BrainDrain
(244 posts)That would be the 85% taken from HRC's campaign staff.
Besides, like Forrest, we should say....
Run HRC run! And in the end, she will get her butt handed to her. She is a shill, a corporate tool, and nothing but a "middle of the road", bank loving, corporate hand out taking, no different than a repug, DINO.
If she is the nominee, I will be sitting out 2016.
Have a nice corporate America ya'all!
LuvNewcastle
(16,847 posts)easychoice
(1,043 posts)She came in #3 behind Edwards last time she ran.
On another note she is known to be a lousy lawyer who laughs when she gets Rapists cut loose.I don't care if she has Bill's help because he isn't any.
Divernan
(15,480 posts)As a 27-year-old lawyer, Hillary Rodham (now Clinton) represented Thomas Alfred Taylor, a 41-year-old man accused of raping a 12-year-old girl. Based on court documents obtained by CNN and Clinton's own account in her 2003 memoir "Living History," she was able to win a plea deal for Taylor based on a forensic mistake that cast doubt on the semen and blood samples found in Taylor's underwear. In court documents, Clinton questioned the girl's emotional state as she sought a court-ordered psychiatric evaluation.
Clintons critics are highlighting the case, insinuating Clinton is not the champion of women she frames herself to be.
Rogin's interview followed a report earlier this week by The Washington Free Beacon, a conservative publication, that included an audio recording of a 1980s interview where Clinton talks about the case. The interviews were done by Arkansas reporter Roy Reed and found by the Free Beacon at the University of Arkansas library.
"I had him take a polygraph, which he passed, which forever destroyed my faith in polygraphs," Clinton tells Reed. In the interviews, Clinton retells the story of the case, acknowledging that she thought Taylor was guilty; at times, laughing.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/06/20/critics-question-clintons-record-with-women-as-rape-victim-speaks-out/
I researched this case during 2008 and learned, to my disgust, that HRC pressured the Arkansas public defender's office to spend the money for her to fly to NYC to interview and hire a "hired gun" psychiatrist and then fly him down to Arkansas to overwhelm the jury and convince them the 12 year old was lying. The money she spent out of that tight budget should have and could have been used to far better purpose to hire local expert witnesses for many of the public defender's clients.
easychoice
(1,043 posts)She isn't worth the bother.
The real point is she and her handlers have an agenda.So we would be electing a Trojan Horse.We have had 3 of those in a row and it isn't working out real well.
Again,thank you.
wyldwolf
(43,868 posts)And they didn't have to take a right wing source's lead on it like you did.
But, of course, your 'opinion' completely bogus without including anything to corroborate your 2008 'research' (other than a 2014 article that quotes The Washington Free Beacon.)
See:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2014/jul/17/did-hillary-clinton-ask-be-relieved-rapist/
http://mediamatters.org/research/2008/02/25/carlson-asserted-clintons-court-appointed-repre/142673
Divernan
(15,480 posts)I was not addressing why she chose to defend a man she considered guilty of rape, but rather the fact that she believed him guilty, laughed about it and still went to extraordinary lengths to get him off. He ended up pleading out to a reduced charge of fondling, because the crack Arkansas police botched the evidence of the 12 year old's blood stained panties. The article YOU cited also backs up my claims about my earlier research, i.e, she went to New York to get an a high powered expert to intimidate the local yokels in Arkansas. The article also validates the tape recordings from the University of Arkansas on which Hillary laughed about the case.
" s)he couldnt recall the name of the Nobel Prize-winning blood expert from New York, whose promise to testify was critical to her defense. "
I urge everyone to read your politifact link, not as to why she took this case, but as to the despicable, win-at-any-cost manner in which she pursued it, at the expense of a 12 year old child. That method of belittling a younger woman victimized by an older man surfaced writ large when she bizarrely blamed Monica Lewinsky as a looney toon, and excused Bill's actions.
At PolitiFact, we decided to review whats known about the case to see if Clinton accurately portrayed how she came to represent the defendant. Because some of the key players have died, we wont issue a rating on our Truth-O-Meter.
Overall, we did find a few inconsistencies in Clintons recollection of the nearly 40-year-old events. But we also found significant evidence suggesting she had little choice but to take the case. And the story itself provides insights in the early career of a potential 2016 presidential candidate.
Clinton mounted a vigorous defense that included discrediting the child victims story by writing in an affidavit that the girl was "emotionally unstable with a tendency to seek out older men" and had made "false accusations" in the past. The victim told Thrush in 2008 and the Daily Beast that Clinton made that up.
Those details didnt make it into Clintons memoir Living History or her recollections of the case in the newly released interview. She does note that the defendant passed a lie-detector test "which forever destroyed my faith in polygraphs," she said in the 1980s and she said the prosecution botched one of the most important pieces of evidence, Taylors blood-stained underwear. She called it a "terrible case."
Taylor, charged with first-degree rape, ultimately pleaded guilty to unlawful fondling of a minor. He died in 1992.
wyldwolf
(43,868 posts)Divernan
(15,480 posts)I had [the client] take a polygraph, which he passed which forever destroyed my faith in polygraphs, Clinton says on the tapes, laughing.
But the amusement in her voice when she describes an error by the police lab that made potentially damning evidence against her client unusable is chilling.
Investigators had secured the accused rapists underwear and sent it for blood testing. The testing appeared to confirm the defendants guilt, Clinton said, but the lab returned the underwear with the critical part that was tested missing.
Clinton recounts how she took what remained of the underwear to a renowned forensics expert in New York to have him confirm that the remnants were unsuitable for confirmation testing. She tells the interviewer how she returned to Arkansas with a letter from the expert and a clip of his biography from Whos Who.
I handed it to [the prosecutor], and I said, Well this guys ready to come up from New York to prevent this miscarriage of justice, Clinton says with sarcastic laughter.
So we were gonna plea bargain.
Faced with an evidentiary disaster, and the prospect of defense testimony by a celebrity witness, the prosecutor caved.
Instead of a hefty prison sentence, the accused rapist got off with time served which Clinton recalled was about two months in the county jail.
The tapes were made in the mid-1980s, and the rape in question took place in May 1975.
Read more: http://www.bizpacreview.com/2014/06/16/chilling-hillary-audio-she-laughs-at-how-she-got-a-child-rapist-off-with-plea-bargain-discredited-12-year-old-victim-125782#ixzz3PHkmpTMp
wyldwolf
(43,868 posts)BrainDrain
(244 posts)aren't you tired of being taken to the woodshed all the time?
HRC is a dead issue here..take a hint and go try to drum up some tired old support at the retirement community down the road, cause it ain't working here.
wyldwolf
(43,868 posts)But can't produce it. Laughable.
No, I haven't been taken to the woodshed yet.
Divernan
(15,480 posts)Yes, I recalled learning about this in 2008. Well guess, what? I don't keep a journal of my internet searches. However I most sincerely want to thank you for ignoring the substance of the topic and hammering on the date, because I now have found many, many links to the tape (held in the archives of the University of Arkansas). It seems in 2014 there was a lot of attention given to this - which we can reasonably expect will continue as long as HRC is a potential or actual candidate for the presidency.
The issue is that Hillary Clinton not only defended a man she admits on tape she believed to have raped a 12 year old girl, but years later laughs about the whole case. So here's the link - don't watch it if you've just eaten.
https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEV7w1U75UhHQAZVMlnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBsa3ZzMnBvBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--?p=The+Hillary+Clinton+Tapes&tnr=21&vid=9AB6A3704BEB684CD4219AB6A3704BEB684CD421&l=367&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.608004676190079843%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3De2f13f2awK4&sigr=11bufe8jj&tt=b&tit=The+Hillary+Clinton+Tapes&sigt=10ppe1ifu&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3DThe%2BHillary%2BClinton%2BTapes%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=13522no0j&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001
Yes, there are tons of reports of this - google it and you'll get over 900,000 hits! So if you HRC fans don't have the stomach to watch it now, just wait because it will be widely circulated during her candidacy.
Over the course of the interview conducted from 1983 to 1987 by Arkansas reporter Roy Reed for a piece in Esquire magazine that never ran Clinton reveals how she took advantage of critical mistakes by the crime-scene team and the prosecution to get Taylor to plead to a much lesser charge.
Young Hillary Clinton heard laughing while discussing her defense of an accused child rapist in newly discovered audio tapes
Decades before she was a senator and Secretary of State, a 27-year-old Clinton was a court-appointed attorney who helped get an Arkansas man accused of raping a 12-year-old girl off the hook. In recently unearthed tapes, Clinton, who suggests she felt her client was guilty, is heard discussing her role in the controversial case with cavalier ease and laughter. A young Hillary Clinton callously rejoiced at getting an accused child rapist off the hook even though the then-lawyer suspected the man was guilty, newly unearthed audio recordings of the youthful future pol show..
Clinton, then a 27-year-old legal aid lawyer in Arkansas, is heard on the old recording, obtained and first reported on by the Washington Free Beacon, casually discussing how she was able to finagle a plea bargain for her client an Arkansas man accused of raping a 12-year-old girl because of a legal technicality.
This guy was accused of raping a 12-year-old. Course he claimed that he didnt, and all this stuff, says a cavalier Clinton on the recording, referencing her client, Thomas Alfred Taylor, who was charged with the 1975 rape.
I had him take a polygraph, which he passed, which forever destroyed my faith in polygraphs, a chuckling Clinton is heard saying a seemingly obvious clue that she felt her client was guilty
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/young-hillary-clinton-heard-laughing-discussing-defense-accused-child-rapist-newly-discovered-audio-tapes-article-1.1832009
wyldwolf
(43,868 posts)Truth is, you didn't know anything about this until the conservative Washington Free Beacon published it last year and you're just trying to retroactively appear informed.
Divernan
(15,480 posts)And yet again you ignore the substance of my comment! Didn't have the courage to watch that tape? Granted it creates a lot of cognitive dissonance for Hillary fans.
While a graduate student at Pitt, I co-ordinated my research projects through the Learning Research and Development Center. It's not that complex a concept, really. One learns through research.
I suggest you listen to that tape of HRC, in her own words laughing about getting a rapist off with a plea bargain - I believe it was 2 months for time already served in the county jail, and comment on her actions.
Don't suppose you happen to have a 12 year old daughter or grand daughter? Perhaps a neighbor's child?
wyldwolf
(43,868 posts).. claiming to have done it in 2008, then yeah.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)wyldwolf
(43,868 posts)Even I might have a shot at one.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)So funny that the Far Left thinks Majority America agrees with them on everything!!!!
Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #200)
Name removed Message auto-removed
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)Divernan
(15,480 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I do have to say I am surprised with Warren's numbers though. I guess because she said she doesn't want to do it. At this point I think Warren is the only one that could defeat Hillary in a primary, but I think Hillary would have still won.
Vinca
(50,299 posts)I thinks she's our most viable candidate to win.
TRoN33
(769 posts)She is friends with Rupert Murdoch and Ben Netanyahu, two of most prominent fascists on this world. She is proud to be one of te elites. She coddle with Wall Street. She will increase the spending on military even if it's already the largest spending of our annual budget. She will cut more taxes and regulations on wealthy corporations. She isn't crazy about ACA and could cut it if given a chance.
Oh I forgot to mention tea party, they would flip the switch from racist to sexist group and continuing their howl of useless outrage.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Don't you realize Third Wayers LOVE her for those things? And she has the cover of a D behind her name!
vi5
(13,305 posts)"Well who are the alternatives?" shows just how far the Democratic party has fallen from their ideals.
The fact that we have no alternatives to yet another dynasty name advocating Republican light foreign policy and a Republican light approach to the economy shows just what a shit state we are in.
I may not have a solution but I sure as shit am not going to be part of the problem as far as helping us to go further down this road as a party. I've already done enough the past 10-15 years of being o.k. with the "lesser of 2 evils" approach. I'm not going to do it any more.
And besides, if these wonderful, completely accurate numbers are to believed she'll clearly have no problem winning without my help.
Well said.
Divernan
(15,480 posts)There's an obvious inconsistency in the results of this poll, which can only be explained by the fact that the 63% of registered Democrats, or self-identified Dems who responded "it's more important to have a nominee who agrees with them" have not yet been made aware of HRC-Sach's intimate ties with and kow-towing to Wall Street, Big Banks and the One Percenters.
She poor-mouthed the Clintons' dire financial straits because she measures her and Bill's $80 million net worth (http://www.therichest.com/celebnetworth/politician/president/bill-clinton-net-worth/) against the One Percent crowd, which the Clintons are lusting to join. They're on the fringes of that group now, but only in the sense of being bought-and-paid-for politicians. Because to the 1 %ers, politicians are people one hires (like a well-dressed, well-spoken servant) to act in one's best interests - not social equals. In Bill's case, amusing to have as a guest at a party, but for god's sakes don't leave him alone with your wives or daughters.
As far as the really wealthy go, the Clintons will always be parvenues, arrivistes and NOKD (Not Our Kind Dear, as they say in St. Barths and Palm Beach). A parvenue is someone who has risen to a higher economic class but not gained social acceptance.
An arriviste is a person who has recently acquired unaccustomed status, wealth, or success, especially by dubious means and without earning concomitant esteem. "Dubious" is appropriate re the Clintons' wealth because that + $100 million the 2 of them have raked in for speaking fees can accurately be considered as $100 million of debt they have incurred to sponsors expecting payback if HRC makes it to the Oval Office.
(As far as the poll goes, no 1%ers were contacted. They don't have listed numbers and they have people who answer their phones.)
Bottom line: HRC's "ideological purity" as that is defined by Democrats, will not pass the test of either a primary or final campaign for the presidency.
Renew Deal
(81,866 posts)If 85% want her to run and 63% wants ideology over win-ability then she clearly dominates in both categories. I'm sure it makes you feel good to think that "if only Democrats knew how terrible she is they would change" but she is the best known of all the candidates. The point is that in the real world, Hillary is a candidate Democrats want.
That world also by plurality doesn't want non-Democrat Bernie Sanders to run and isn't interested either way about Warren.
Divernan
(15,480 posts)wyldwolf
(43,868 posts)Divernan
(15,480 posts)Before I went to law school, I was a sociology grad student (ABD in applied research) and NIMH research fellow for 3 years. I designed and administered survey research, including polls, for Dr. Paul Lazarsfeld, the founder of Columbia's Bureau of Applied Social Research and the only sociologist ever admitted to the National Academy of Sciences. There are many people like me, posting on DU, with advanced degrees and expertise - sadly it is impossible to condense years of graduate work and experience into responding to challenges like yours.
Paul F. Lazarsfeld Facts
The Austrian-born American sociologist Paul F. Lazarsfeld (1901-1976) was one of the most influential social scientists of his time. He founded four university-related institutes of applied social research and was a professor of sociology at Columbia University for three decades.
Outstanding in His Field
Lazarsfeld received many acknowledgements of his accomplishments during his lifetime. He was president of both the American Association for Public Opinion Research (1949/1950) and the American Sociological Association (1961/1962), and he was an elected member of the National Academy of Education as well as of the National Academy of Sciences. He received honorary degrees from Chicago and Yeshiva universities in 1966, from Columbia in 1970, from Vienna in 1971, and from the Sorbonne in 1972the first American sociologist ever so honored. In 1955 he was the first recipient of the Julian L. Woodward memorial award of the American Association for Public Opinion Research, and in 1969 the Austrian Republic awarded him its Great Golden Cross, largely for his help in establishing the Institute for Advanced Studies in Vienna in 1963. He was a much sought-after consultant, speaker, and teacher. Shortly after his death from cancer on August 30, 1976, a Paul F. Lazarsfeld Memorial Fund was established in order to sponsor a series of annual lectures in his honor. In 1983 a large collection of his books and papers was dedicated as the Lazarsfeld Archives at the University of Vienna.
http://biography.yourdictionary.com/paul-f-lazarsfeld
Believe me or not - it matters not to me.
Explain to us how the previous poster was wrong.
Stephen Retired
(190 posts)And, this time, she won't be facing a charismatic primary challenger.
Iggo
(47,561 posts)pampango
(24,692 posts)Rated 100% by NARAL, indicating a pro-choice voting record. (Dec 2003)
Rated 0% by the NRLC, indicating a pro-choice stance. (Dec 2006)
Rated 60% by the ACLU, indicating a mixed civil rights voting record. (Dec 2002)
Rated 89% by the HRC, indicating a pro-gay-rights stance. (Dec 2006)
Rated 96% by the NAACP, indicating a pro-affirmative-action stance. (Dec 2006)
Rated 35% by the US COC, indicating a mixed business voting record. (Dec 2003)
Rated 82% by the NEA, indicating pro-public education votes. (Dec 2003)
Rated 89% by the LCV, indicating pro-environment votes. (Dec 2003)
Rated 100% by the CAF, indicating support for energy independence. (Dec 2006)
Rated 0% by the Christian Coalition: an anti-family voting record. (Dec 2003)
Rated 17% by CATO, indicating a pro-fair trade voting record. (Dec 2002)
Rated 100% by APHA, indicating a pro-public health record. (Dec 2003)
Rated 100% by SANE, indicating a pro-peace voting record. (Dec 2003)
Rated 8% by USBC, indicating an open-border stance. (Dec 2006)
Rated 85% by the AFL-CIO, indicating a pro-union voting record. (Dec 2003)
Rated 100% by the ARA, indicating a pro-senior voting record. (Dec 2003)
Rated 21% by NTU, indicating a "Big Spender" on tax votes. (Dec 2003)
Rated 80% by the CTJ, indicating support of progressive taxation. (Dec 2006)
Voted NO on implementing CAFTA for Central America free-trade. (Jul 2005)
Voted NO on extending free trade to Andean nations. (May 2002)
http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/hillary_clinton.htm
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)even back then, they aren't that good.
But thanks for reminding us of the past, and how much more we know now.
pampango
(24,692 posts)Apparently some Democrats do not feel the same way.
Renew Deal
(81,866 posts)Information I don't like = not meaningful
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Manny Man
(19 posts)5 times?
I don't think so.
MineralMan
(146,320 posts)and a presidential primary in 2008. Five times voting for her that adds up to.
Counting is good. Understanding elections is also good.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)OKNancy
(41,832 posts)which means a lot when it comes to the next Supreme Court appointments.
Protecting the rights of women, and LGBT are very important to me.
NewJeffCT
(56,828 posts)That Democrats don't want other candidates in the race - 40% approve of Joe Biden in the race, 23% approve of Elizabeth Warren in the race and 12% Bernie Sanders.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Hillary has extraordinarily high negatives among Democrats, many of whom would likely stay home rather than have to hold their noses long enough to pass out.
Another disaster inflicted from above for the Party.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Candidate that looks fairly good in the abstract, and has decent polling, but can't get people to turn out.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)Coakley was the victim of indifference, that led to low Democratic turnout. Hillary's negatives among some Democrats, no matter how broadly shared, are intensely felt. That is a major factor to be considered by anyone who might consider supporting her candidacy.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)Do you have any evidence to support your assertion that "Hillary has extraordinarily high negatives among Democrats " that will result in a depressed turnout?
I have an open mind[/i ] and can be persuaded to oppose her candidacy if said evidence exists as I would oppose the candidacy of any Democratic candidate who was destined to lose
Thank you in advance.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)snappyturtle
(14,656 posts)Renew Deal
(81,866 posts)"reality has a well-known liberal bias"
bluedigger
(17,087 posts)I already knew that without a poll.
benz380
(534 posts)Divernan
(15,480 posts)City Lights
(25,171 posts)MoonchildCA
(1,301 posts)it's still about name recognition. Hillary has been in the headlines for two decades now, and was a major candidate last time around. Biden, of course, being Vice President would pull some kind of numbers. The others pretty much fall in line according to name recognition.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)That does not address which of the two I will vote for in the primary, if they turn out to be the only two running. I generally approve of Democrats running for President against Bush and the Clown Car on the right. So I will generally approve of any Democrat choosing to run for President.
What I would like to see is substantive polcy statements on domestic policy, women's rights, individual rights, income inequality, progressive taxes, gun regulation (OK, gun regulation will not be addressed because it has become the third rail of politics built on the bodies of dead children, but a guy can hope).
Their foreign policy credentials don't mean much to me, because since Reagan, the differences in foreign policy have been very slight, and the differences between Bush and Obama are so small as to be practically invisible. The US is an empire and imperial policy will continue until we surrender the top spot.
NYC Liberal
(20,136 posts)Despite the fervent Clinton hatred on DU, she is a great, Liberal Democrat who is extremely popular within the party and the base. The "corporatist!!1" "DINO!!!1" buzzwords thrown at her hilariously out of touch with realty.
brooklynite
(94,641 posts)I know they're somewhat extreme on some policy points, but they're big on ideological purity and they're firmly convinced that their Party is selling them out...
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)I know they're somewhat right of center on policy points, but they're big on corporatism and they're firmly convinced Democrats just need to keep moving further to the right...
brooklynite
(94,641 posts)Who knew?
But to your question, since Hillary supporters are 't threatening to leave the Party, I think that DEMOCRATIC Underground is a great place to hang out.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Folks at the yacht club must think that is spot on, eh old chap?
brooklynite
(94,641 posts)...e.g. that Hillary Clinton isn't a mainstream Democratic candidate supported by a broad range of Democrats, including liberals like the aforementioned Warren, Frank and Dean.
You are certainly welcome to endorse and work to elect someone more liberal if you can find one. But slamming a respected US Senator and Secretary of State for a respected Democratic President as a republican in disguise is going to be a hard act to sell.
Not that we won't enjoy the show...
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)'Let's make Democrats more like Republicans' is an inspiring slogan. Hillary 2.0 will end up in the same place as Hillary 1.0, despite the efforts of people like you to shove the party even further to the right
brooklynite
(94,641 posts)...they don't bother me, because whether it's hanging out with Hillary Clinton at the salon or Elizabeth Warren at lunch or President Obama at a White House party, I live in the real world of politics, and never let grumbling in the blogosphere substitute for what real Democrats think.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)DU is not the real world.
Sid
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)So I agree with your statement.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)Divernan
(15,480 posts)They just haven't been informed of the facts of her pro-Wall Street actions/political values.
I'm very active in AAUW, and the members are nearly all well educated and well informed on political happenings. They're pro Warren, and not because she's a woman but because she's an effective progressive politician. We have a few conservative members, but they are GOP. Don't know anyone Dem. who supports HRC and I'm fairly active in my local and county Dem. organizations. No Bill fans there either.
Renew Deal
(81,866 posts)brooklynite
(94,641 posts)Come to think of it, that list includes Elizabeth Warren.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)That's gonna leave a mark.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)She refuses to publicly endorse Hill. You won't find a single quote saying she endorses Hillary for president.
brooklynite
(94,641 posts)Formal endorsement isn't the point. Warren encouraged Hillary to run, and I respect her enough not to think of her as a political sellout who would sign a letter just to "get along".
But perhaps you do?
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)brooklynite
(94,641 posts)"All all of the women Democratic women I should say of the Senate urged Hillary Clinton to run, and I hope she does. Hillary is terrific," Warren said during an interview broadcast Sunday on ABC's "This Week," noting that she was one of several senators to sign a letter urging Clinton to run in 2016.
Thanks for clearing that up.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)brooklynite
(94,641 posts)"supporting" means "not supporting"
"not running" means "running"
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)brooklynite
(94,641 posts)Last edited Mon Jan 19, 2015, 12:53 PM - Edit history (1)
...Would you accept 50% -- what Clinton got against the immensely popular, well organized and well funded Barack Obama, in a race when all the Clinton era and IWR baggage was looked through?
And if so -- since Warren isn't running, and Sanders is a self-labeled Socialist, who has nowhere near the fundraising capability -- do you really imagine that Clinton is going to do less well than in 2008?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)you were there for us then, too.
When the phone rings at 3am, you'll be there again. As will we all.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I have already voted for here 5 times.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)And, what about her role in pushing US into another war in Syria? Not to mention her enthusiastic leadership in destabilizing the entire MENA region?
Why can you trust that she won't go further down the same slope, again? Or, is that just not really all that significant?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)Sid
JEB
(4,748 posts)Not my first choice, but if the Pukes pick somebody evil enough (what else can they do?), then I might ignore my own conscience long enough to blacken the dot.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)tabasco
(22,974 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Response to wyldwolf (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
arcane1
(38,613 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)I just don't support it.
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Oligarchy). The wealthy Oligarchy love Clinton.
Divernan
(15,480 posts)The Hillary Clinton Rapist tape, for your listening horror and disgust!
https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A0LEVjjKVL5U7LoADu0lnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBsa3ZzMnBvBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2JmMQR2dGlkAw--?p=The+Hillary+Clinton+Tapes&tnr=21&vid=63091E255477ED863EF863091E255477ED863EF8&l=367&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts4.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DUN.608041947915616799%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DrQAKUKYVsDY&sigr=11bp2f2nj&tt=b&tit=The+Hillary+Clinton+Rapist%26%2339%3Bs+Tapes&sigt=116k9c5cs&back=https%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3DThe%2BHillary%2BClinton%2BTapes%26ei%3DUTF-8%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla&sigb=13522no0j&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001