Noam Chomsky: Charlie Hebdo massacre was a terror attack -- but so is Obama's drone campaign

[Xilantro]

"There are many other events that call for no inquiry into western culture and history -- for example, the worst single terrorist atrocity in Europe in recent years, in July 2011, when Anders Breivik, a Christian ultra-Zionist extremist and Islamophobe, slaughtered 77 people, mostly teenagers.

Also ignored in the "war against terrorism" is the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times -- Barack Obama's global assassination campaign targeting people suspected of perhaps intending to harm us some day, and any unfortunates who happen to be nearby. Other unfortunates are also not lacking, such as the 50 civilians reportedly killed in a U.S.-led bombing raid in Syria in December, which was barely reported"

https://twitter.com/cnni/status/557186361829367810

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/19/opinion/charlie-hebdo-noam-chomsky/index.html

[brooklynite]

1. and I should care what Noam Chomsky thinks because...?

[G_j]

3. because he is a highly intelligent and studied thinker on the left

and you like that sort of thing?

[elias49]

4. Yup. This^^

[RiverLover]

5. Do you care what Human Rights Watch thinks?

The Toll Of 5 Years Of Drone Strikes: 2,400 Dead
Jan 2014

..Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International issued a pair of reports in October fiercely criticizing the secrecy that shrouds the administration's drone program, and calling for investigations into the deaths of drone victims with no apparent connection to terrorism. In Pakistan alone, TBIJ estimates, between 416 and 951 civilians, including 168 to 200 children, have been killed...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/23/obama-drone-program-anniversary_n_4654825.html

And do you think this helps rid us of terrorists, or does it maybe create many new people who want to harm Americans?

Maybe it would only be bad to you if it were a President with an (R) after his/her name?

[brooklynite]

6. Not QUITE the same as accusing the Obama Administration of terrorism.

[RiverLover]

7. It can be voiced aloud or inferred by reason, why is one more offensive than the other? nt

[brooklynite]

8. Terrorism: the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

You can argue about the strategy and tactics of our military activity; you can also advocate a strict pacifist philosophy; but our drone attacks are targeted at military targets, not at civilians.

[Fearless]

33. The fact is that they are killing hundreds of civilians.

Which breeds a whole new generation of people, the survivors and the families of those terrorized, who will be anti-American.

[brooklynite]

36. That may be an undesirable result, but that's not terrorism.

[Fearless]

37. 9/11

[Ken Burch]

40. If they have the effect of terrorizing civilians, then they are a form of terrorism.

The only moral thing to do is to end all U.S, military operations in the Middle East. Nothing was ever OUR fight there...and it's probable that ISIS emerged precisely because we've kept our wars going there.

Nothing at all would be worse if all U.S. operations had ended on 1/20/09.

[Telcontar]

51. I always wonder about this conclusion

Where are the hordes of German and Japanese terrorists seeking vengance?

[Fearless]

65. It's a different world now

[JackRiddler]

9. You self-evidently do care.

[daleanime]

21. Why should you care what anyone thinks......

because if you listen with an open heart it may change your mind.

[brooklynite]

22. Perhaps so, but that's not what I was asked to do...

...the OP asked me to respect the opinion because it was Chomsky's.

[daleanime]

28. No such request was made....

simply presented for your information.

Also for your information, I agree with him.

[LiberalAndProud]

66. Is that question an indicatation that you are not familiar with Chomsky,

or that you have no regard for his opinion?

[brooklynite]

67. I'm generally familiar with Chomsky...

...I don't see his opinions as being particularly significant, other than that he tends to agree with the leftists who admire him.

[BeyondGeography]

2. Wow

That Obama guy, he's just an indiscriminate killer.

[msongs]

10. it's not terrorism when american presidents slaughter wedding parties and families nt

[840high]

34. Of course. Especially a Dem.

[elias49]

11. I'm not comfortable at all with remote control murder

and I don't know what to call it. Terrorism?
If China was using drones for targeted killing in, oh, Indonesia, or somewhere on the African continent, would that be acceptable to the rest of the civilized world? Would it be called 'terrorism'?

[EX500rider]

19. "If China was using drones for targeted killing....

....in, oh, Indonesia, or somewhere on the African continent, would that be acceptable to the rest of the civilized world?"

If they had the permission of the country I don't think there would be a problem. Countries can help other countries fight terrorism or violent separatists.

As we do in Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan and Somalia.

[elias49]

20. Good heavens! You think those countries want our drones?

"Pakistan's Prime Minister, Nawaz Sharif, has repeatedly demanded an end to the strikes, stating: "The use of drones is not only a continual violation of our territorial integrity but also detrimental to our resolve and efforts at eliminating terrorism from our country"

"If other states were to claim the broad-based authority that the United States does—to kill people anywhere, anytime—the result would be chaos." —Philip Alston, former UN special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary, or arbitrary executions

I'd like to be shown where and when - and by whom - drone deployments in Somalia, Afghanistan or Yemen were OK'd. Or 'permitted'. I think you're mistaken.

[EX500rider]

24. They are definitely there with permission.

The Pakistanis are just being two faced about it, saying that for public consumption. They were saying the same thing when the drones were taking off from Pakistani Air Force bases.
The Pakistanis have F-16's and could easily shoot down slow flying drones if they actually wanted to.

You really think Somalia and Yemen don't want the help with alQueda and Al-Shabaab? They do, they help supply targeting data for strikes.

[JonLP24]

27. Talk about two faced

The Yemen government is incredibly corrupt & their is a civil war raging. I'm sure Yemen was very helpful in providing data to help target rebel forces, whether or not is Al-Qaeda, I don't think they care--they just want to stay in charge.

[arely staircase]

12. pretty weak for Chomsky

He almost becomes absurd when he complains of the lack of coverage of fifty civilians supposedly killed in a US bombing raid in Syria in December. No offense meant to the dead but does Chomsky have any idea how many people die in the hellscape that is Syria daily? Sadly fifty dead civilians really isn't newsworthy when they die in Syria. It is like the time I saw a shooting in Reynosa and the guy at the front desk of the hotel laughed when I looked for a story about it in the paper the next day. It just wasn't newsworthy in the context of Tamaulipas in the late 00s.

[leftynyc]

43. Chomsky ONLY cares when

the deaths come from American drones. He has shown time and time again he simply doesn't give a shit about Muslims killing other Muslims.

[beam me up scottie]

13. "the most extreme terrorist campaign of modern times --Barack Obama's global assassination campaign"

[RiverLover]

14. "When the U.S. drones target a person for murder, it kills 27 additional people."

The CIA finds targeted drone murders counterproductive
1/12/15

http://njtoday.net/2015/01/12/cia-finds-targeted-drone-murders-counterproductive/


Can you imagine sitting down for dinner & being bombed & having people you love die? And children? It makes me so sad thinking we are responsible for this. So sad.

[Laughing Mirror]

41. While some on Kill List have "died" as many as 7 times

In total, as many as 1,147 people may have been killed during attempts to kill 41 men, accounting for a quarter of all possible drone strike casualties in Pakistan and Yemen. In Yemen, strikes against just 17 targets accounted for almost half of all confirmed civilian casualties. Yet evidence suggests that at least four of these 17 men are still alive. Similarly, in Pakistan, 221 people, including 103 children, have been killed in attempts to kill four men, three of whom are still alive and a fourth of whom died from natural causes. One individual, Fahd al Quso, was reported killed in both Yemen and Pakistan. In four attempts to kill al Quso, 48 people potentially lost their lives.

Other key findings include:
• Twenty-four men were reported killed or targeted multiple times in Pakistan. Missed strikes on these men killed 874 people. They resulted in the deaths of 142 children.
• Seventeen men in Yemen were reported killed or targeted multiple times. Missile strikes on these men killed 273 others and accounted for almost half of all confirmed civilian casualties and 100% of all recorded child deaths.
• In targeting Ayman al Zawahiri, the CIA killed 76 children and 29 adults. They failed twice and Ayman al Zawahiri is reportedly still alive.
• In the six attempts it took the US to kill Qari Hussain, a deputy commander of the Tehrike-Taliban Pakistan (TTP), 128 people were killed. including 13 children.
• Baitullah Mehsud was directly targeted as many as seven times, during which 164 people were killed, including 11 children.
• From 2004-2013, children suffered disproportionately in Pakistan. The pursuit of 14 targets killed 142 children. Only six of these children died in strikes that successfully killed their target (21% success rate).

http://www.reprieve.org/uploads/2/6/3/3/26338131/2014_11_24_pub_you_never_die_twice_-_multiple_kills_in_the_us_drone_program.pdf

[Scuba]

18. + Eighty Gazillion

[Puglover]

48. No kidding.

[aikoaiko]

49. Chomsky loyalists?

[Dreamer Tatum]

16. Starting to see a racial component to Chomsky's diatribes

[kiva]

38. Yes, he really does seem concerned

about those brown-skinned people that are being killed by drones.

[leftynyc]

44. But only when killed by Americans

When brown people kill other brown people, he's nowhere to be found.

[hughee99]

17. All I needed to see was "Noam Chomsky:"

And I knew what the gist would be. If Chomsky is a genius, I'd expect to be enlightened by his comments, but I always end up thinking "yup, that's exactly what I thought he'd say".

[Inkfreak]

54. lol, I never thought of it that way till now. But..yea. (nt)

[daleanime]

23. K&R....

[treestar]

25. stupidly unfair, since we're going after the terrorists

I suppose he calls the French who went after and killed the two gunman terrorists also.

No, we should never kill terrorists! That would be terrorism.

[elias49]

35. Stupidly jingoistic.

The US defines 'terrorist' any way they want.
Come on. Don't be naive.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

57. "The US defines 'terrorist' any way they want."

So does every other regime. The US is monstrously mundane in this regard.

The purpose of power is to stay in power. If Chomsky committed his ideal government to paper and it were instituted to the letter within two generations it would be no different from any other nation sate.

[elias49]

59. Heck. I'll take 2 generations!

By then, climate change will get us all.

[ann---]

26. To those

innocents who die in the drone attacks, they certainly ARE terror attacks.

[Octafish]

29. There it is.

Truth.

You can't make friends by killing people. Same goes for peace. But, when money is more important than, there's going to be a lot of death. Been pretty constant in Iraq since 1980.

[KingCharlemagne]

30. When the wealthy and powerful commit terrorism upon the poor and weak, the wealthy and powerful

justify it by calling it 'war.' When the poor and weak wage war upon the wealthy and powerful, the latter condemn it by calling it 'terrorism.'

[kelliekat44]

39. ++1,000 nt

[Jefferson23]

31. Recommend...you can't kill everyone. n/t

[Fearless]

32. And he would be correct.

[woo me with science]

42. K&R

[marshall]

45. Chomsky vs Micheal Moore

Has Moore made a similar statement about drones being a cowardly way of conducting war?

[nolabels]

64. Pretty sure this kind of thing was discussed about.........

twelve or fourteen years ago on D.U. or like in forever since about the time of the war of (you get the point). The establishment only listens to other voices when their crap isn't working. Then when the establishment does decide to air a little of it, that dog and pony show comes out with the predicable likes of Moore and Chomsky.

If we listen to who THEY decide we should listen to then we are just keeping all things hierarchical and nothing will get done about anything without a master's say-so. Do we really need a spokesperson to blurt out what many people are already thinking? Things like online discussions, twitter, face book, etc were partly invented to get around that obtrusion. If you or me or we are going to win it will need to be in a game in which the rules make it possible

[polly7]

46. K&R. nt.

[rbrnmw]

47. are you accusing my President of being a terrorist?

this is flamebait

[Fred Sanders]

52. The hundreds of parents of hundreds of dead children would say so. How about the no coversge

of the liberation of 50 civilians from their lives in Syria?

If you do not know about it, then it did not happen and America can smuggly continue terrorizing.

Would you feel safe in Anytown, America with Iranian drones flying overhead looking for the terrorists in your midst and not caring if you are near by? I would be terrorized.

The problem is the alternative is ground troops, and even more killing of innocents.

[FLPanhandle]

50. Never really understood the focus on drones

What about deaths from troops on the ground?
Snipers?
Artillary?
missles?
manned aircraft?

Does it matter which weapon system caused deaths? Do the relatives only care if their family members were killed by drones instead of a helicopter gunship?

I guess it's human facination with new things. Troops and airplanes are traditional weapons so no outrage, but drones? Wooo!

[Ferd Berfel]

53. This is why Obama will never prosecute the Bush Crime Family.

Because Obama has also committed war crimes, crimes against humanity. He has made his bones.

[brooklynite]

56. So, you're endorsing President Obama's impeachment and trial as well?

[Ferd Berfel]

61. No,

I'm saying he is as guilty as Bush on some accounts and therefore cannot take the chance to start a precedent

Quite the histrionic leap there Bosco

[brooklynite]

62. But you DO think Bush should be prosecuted, right?

If Obama is "as guilty as Bush", why play favorites?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless

What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy? Gandhi

[RedCappedBandit]

58. Loyalists: "But we're the good guys, and they're the bad guys!" nt

[whatchamacallit]

60. September 12 - A Toy World

An old flash game illustrating the folly of our foreign policy. The object of the game is to try to position the reticle to "surgically" strike terrorists (white keffiyeh) among the general population. When you hit civilians, and you will, some of their mourners transform into terrorists. Try as you might, your actions inevitably skew the population ratio to terrorists because you create more than you kill. Truly brilliant.

Short video
http://m.

Link to actual game
http://www.gamesforchange.org/play/september-12th-a-toy-world/

[BlueCaliDem]

63. Unrec. Republican rhetoric has no place on Du no matter the source.

Noam Chomsky isn't god. He's not all-knowing. And I'm not surprised that the Conservative News Network would be reporting it as such to appeal to Liberals and pit them against President Obama and Democrats.

Sometimes, some left-leaning Independents who claim to be Liberals are useful tools for Corporate America, as is in this case.