Abortion is Legal Because So Many Men Are Lying, Thoughtless, Irresponsible Dicks.

[riqster]

https://bluntandcranky.wordpress.com/2012/08/20/abortion-is-legal-because-so-many-men-are-lying-thoughtless-irresponsible-dicks/

A reminder on this anniversary of Roe v. Wade:

When the U.S. Supreme Court legalized abortion, they did not rule on the morality, ethics, religious value or rightness/wrongness of abortion: in fact, the ruling wasn’t entirely about abortion at all. Let’s all take a moment to put our heads back together, since many of yours have likely just exploded.

All crania super-glued back together now? Excellent. Lots of folks think of a woman’s right to choose as it has been defined and discussed by TV preachers and glory-hound politicians, many of whom know nothing about the actual ruling (or pretend not to): they frame it as a Godless, liberal, genocidal baby-killing spree imposed upon the Godly American majority by a Satanic Supreme Court, or some similar load of twaddle.

In reality, the ruling hinged upon something far more basic: men cannot get pregnant, and there is no Constitutional way to force them to be accountable towards the women they impregnate or the children they help to create. As the late-night infomercial boyos like to say, “it’s just that simple”.

What the Supremes found was this: lots of men lie to women in order to get laid. Wow, who’d a thunk that? And if they get a woman pregnant, they likewise lie about taking care of the woman and child (or just take off). This leaves the woman completely and totally responsible for the consequences of an act that two people consented to (rape and other sex crimes that result in pregnancy are for another post), because the baby is inside her and she pretty much has to deal with that reality. Meanwhile the man can either be responsible, or not.

In nature, men can choose whether or not to deal with a pregnancy they help create, and women cannot (that’s the real meaning behind “pro-choice”). Simply put: Nature has created an inequality when it comes to pregnancy. The Supreme Court recognized this, and THAT is where Roe V. Wade came from. Giving women the same amount of choice as men. Equality, in other words. You know, that teenytiny little concept that our whole nation was founded upon? Yeah, that equality.

Yes, I hear you say, we have court-ordered child support: surely that addresses the situation? It might help, if there were any way to guarantee such payments: in reality, many men evade such court orders or simply don’t pay up when they are ordered to. Nor does child support cover all of the burdens of single parenthood.

Mr. Blunt and Cranky has imagined lots of fun ways to make men deal with their sexual behavior: surgical insertion of bowling balls into their intestines so that they can feel a bit of the pregnancy experience; forced labor on chain-gangs for 18 years with all proceeds going to the mother and child; all sorts of amusing notions, none of which, alas, are the least bit constitutional.

(One should notice that almost none of the recent restrictive state and local laws regarding abortion say Thing One about making men deal with their share of responsibility. These laws take away the rights of women while doing nothing to address the fundamental inequity that the Supreme Court sought to rectify. Small wonder, since most of these bills were written by male politicians, who are evidently lying, thoughtless, irresponsible dicks, taking care of themselves and their like-minded brethren.)

When and if a way can be found to make 100 percent of men as 100 percent responsible as women for the children they create, perhaps Roe V Wade might no longer be necessary. Until then, while so many men remain a**holes about sex and reproduction, it is indispensable to the life, liberty and pursuit of happiness of women (remember them? They’re the majority of Americans).


PS: Here’s what 100% prohibition of abortion looks like: http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/18/world/americas/dominican-republic-abortion/index.html

[Mnemosyne]

1. Hear, hear! Excellent assessment. nt

[riqster]

6. Thanks.

[Brickbat]

2. I find this a weird approach and one that doesn't really match up with reality.

Many women who get abortions have men who are active, involved and supportive in their lives. Less than half of the women who get abortions have never been married and are not cohabiting.

About three-quarters say they want abortions because of their responsibilities to other family members; three-quarters also say that having a child would interfere with work or education. If they are supported by men, should they drop the work or education they want to have the baby?

[riqster]

13. Men should have no legal rights in that decision.

Whether we are nice or not.

In the Roe case, the man fit the description drawn in the OP. But had he been a good guy, he should STILL not be allowed to make her choice.

[stevenleser]

27. I agree with your subject line. So if it's not about men, why does OP make it about men? nt

[riqster]

29. Point.

I must work on my writing skills. Thanks.

[onecaliberal]

43. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^THAT^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

X1000000000000000000000000000

[lark]

39. Another very important fact that this article misses is the health aspect.

Even if the man is responsible, it's not his body that is at risk. Women with supportive partners can still have egregious health issues and need an abortion or face death or a very diminished life. Women who were raped have mental health issues that a supportive husband/partner wouldn't negate.

I was always told not to have babies, or max have no more than 1, because I have a very rare and serious vascular condition. I literally died with my 2nd child, but luckily they were able to successfully bring me back. I had my tubes tied ASAP, so no more worries. If I had become pregnant before this could be done (had to wait for a while due to issues from bleeding out) I would have immediately asked for an abortion because I would not have survived a 3rd pregnancy. I had a loving, supportive husband and 2 sweet children, a boy and a girl, but I still would have had an abortion because it would have been that or death. BTW - my husband was 100% behind me.

It's a woman's body and a woman's choice. Period.the.end.

[JDPriestly]

61. I was told after my second child that neither I nor my child would survive another pregnancy.

Health issues are huge. And your health is nobody's business. I never discussed this with anyone other than my family until a few years ago when I talked about it with some friends and then posted on DU in the course of a discussion. There is something rather sad and troubling about having a health problem that makes pregnancy not only dangerous for you but for your child.

These are unusual situations, but they exist, and those who oppose abortion just don't deal with the fact that they do exist. I am fortunate because I never became pregnant again, so I never had an abortion. But I was told that I would not have a real choice, that pregnancy was not only out of the question but pointless for me.

And I love children.

[riqster]

70. After my son was born, his mother and I got similar warnings.

I went straight out and got myself fixed. Sad, but we do what we must for our families.

[lark]

124. Exactly

Anti-choice extremists totally ignore the complex medical and mental issues involved with pregnancy. Put it this way, they don't give a flying flip when it's someone else, there are no circumstances in which they approve of abortions. However, when it's them or their families (ala Mittens and Santorum) well, of course those abortions are justified.

[Panich52]

92. Anti-choicers refuse to accept abortion as health issue

...one tweeted just that denial to me and the myth is prevalent among antis' sites.

A woman doesn't need to have a pre-existing condition to not want the biological changes and strains pregnancy entails. A fetus takes control of most of a woman's physiology Sounds heartless to say, but getting pregnant is a bit like hosting an aggressive parasite.

All aspects of women's reproduction are health issues: contraception, pregnancy, and abortion are decisions that are, by nature, individual health concerns.

[riqster]

101. Very true.

[Nye Bevan]

3. I think this article misses the mark.

Even if 100% of men were great guys who invariably supported any baby they helped create to the fullest possible extent, abortion should still be legal and Roe versus Wade would still be necessary. In utero diagnoses of severe handicaps would be just one example of why this is the case, but there are many more.

[riqster]

9. The point is that the woman and only the woman has the right to choose.

Too often, laws give men partial or complete control.

Nice or not, we men should have no legal standing in the decision.

[Brickbat]

10. The message this article gives is that if men would only behave, we wouldn't have to regulate their

ladyfriends. It's bizarre.

[Tsiyu]

66. In real life

I see men get women pregnant and walk away from the responsibility all the time. Mostly young people in poverty, who think having sex and getting a girl pregnant is the mark of manhood. Talked to a lot of young TN women over the years, and of course, many fathers are awesome and help their partners, but there are so many young mothers saying, "He's never helped at all."

I babysat for one little boy whose Daddy wouldn't help pay their heating bill because he had to buy his new girlfriend designer jeans. Then he got that girl pregnant. And Lord knows how many other girls. Caucasian TN Boy raised in the Bobble Belt, horny and loves that sex and the thrill of getting a girl pregnant - but support the kid? No way.

They walk away and never do a thing to help the child.

So the OP reflects a sad reality, but it's reality nonetheless.

[Nye Bevan]

15. I'm with you on that, but that's not what the article concludes.

When and if a way can be found to make 100 percent of men as 100 percent responsible as women for the children they create, perhaps Roe V Wade might no longer be necessary.

Do you agree with this conclusion? Because I don't.

[joeglow3]

19. Agreed, but that is not what the article said.

It just seemed kind of messy.

[appalachiablue]

76. No legal standing in the woman's decision, no responsibility for their sperm or their child. Righto.

[ncjustice80]

123. Hmmmmm...

If abortions were free and easily obtainable- would that make paternity/child support uneccesary in certain circumstances?

Just a thought- NOT saying I support deadbeats!!!!

[appalachiablue]

128. It's such a difficult but important part of our lives, things seem to change then revert like now.

I still think that policy should be women in control legally of their bodies. And mandated support or assistance from fathers is critical & fairly well enforced from what I know. What a very tough reality & issue, God knows.

[wavesofeuphoria]

4. Thanks for posting this :)

Giving women the same amount of choice as men. Equality, in other words.

Women should have the right to body autonomy as everyone else.

Her body, her choice.

[Brickbat]

5. Sometimes even happily married heterosexual women get pregnant when they don't want to be.

The end.

[riqster]

8. True. And the choice should be the woman's, and ONLY hers.

[Brickbat]

12. Right, so why bring deadbeat men into it?

[riqster]

14. Because they figured in the original case and were central to it.

[stevenleser]

28. You can't have it both ways. It's not about men, it's about a woman's choice regardless. nt

[kcr]

40. There is really no way to have it both ways

The fact that pregnancy only occurs in women is a fundamental inequality that exists that cannot be rectified unless we somehow give men the ability to get pregnant, too. The closest we can come is giving women control over their bodies and what happens to them.

[Brickbat]

32. That's just as good an argument for men having say over what pregnant women should do.

[onecaliberal]

44. Because ALOT of women are forced to have children when the men run off.

[riqster]

71. That was the scenario of the Roe plaintiff.

[niyad]

7. bringing dust buster for the exploding heads.

[RobinA]

11. Don't Even Know

where to begin in disagreeing with this article. Just, no.

[Nye Bevan]

17. I'm starting to think that the OP liked the headline,

and posted the whole article without properly reading it.

[progressoid]

25. IIRC

The author of the article and the poster are the same person. Seems I read that on DU once.

[KingCharlemagne]

18. I concur. This article is wrong, even if it's heart may be in the right place. On the literal level,

SCOTUS ruled, based on application of Griswold's 1965 'Right to Privacy'. Roe was never about gender equality; it was always about privacy and control of one's own body.

Not sure it's worth engaging the OP (who's merely reprinting a blog entry, as far as I can tell). But I agree with your broad-based dissent.

[BlueJazz]

16. I think you may be partly correct but some people, both Men and Women simply don't want,,,

....children. I'm one of them. I would certainly not abandon any woman but try to make sure that I don't have to raise a child I didn't fully want. I believe quite a few men feel the same.

[riqster]

21. I hear you. The Roe case involved a man who behaved as described in the OP.

There are myriad other examples and situations that could and do occur, of course.

No matter what, the woman should have the exclusive right to choose.

[whathehell]

24. Okay, but then

why should men rely on women to get abortions?

If they want to be really sure, how 'bout they get vasectomies.?

[BlueJazz]

35. "how 'bout they get vasectomies.?"

I agree with your words.

Actually, some of the guys I've known should have been forced to....

I'm kidding...kinda'

[whathehell]

53. Yup.

Glad you agree.

[appalachiablue]

67. I know many men who feel the same. Especially married ones, mostly middle aged with wives and

families who start talking casually about the children they have out of marriage, or their buddies do. To people like me and others, practical strangers. Apparently a deal was made with the mother, they're off the hook financially for the most part which is the main issue, money of course, but are still obviously involved, curious, even proud since they openly bring it up.
It's very, very creepy and reeks of a conflicted and/or self pleased mind. Perhaps a heavy conscience, or merely blunt stupidity. Like a criminal wishing to talk about their crime. Completely bizarre and repulsive, not the innocent kids. I told one he needed to see a shrink, he might be bipolar for other reasons. He laughed, but agreed. Still didn't get the part about how strange and uncomfortable it is to listen to this highly personal, intimate subject. That's the profound lack of empathy common in males and some women.

[BlueJazz]

78. Personally, I equate cheating on your spouse as one of the most unforgivable things ...

...a person can do. It disgusts me.

I remember a scene in a movie that, for me, hit the proverbial nail on the head.
A man was up for a position in a finance company. He asked the boss why he didn't get the position.
The boss said (something like) "Your own wife can't trust you...and you expect ME to...??"

[appalachiablue]

99. Your views about fidelity are honorable and should be more common. The principled, old school boss

had it right. Seems this thinking is not heard as much lately given our current economic and employment circumstances favoring less integrity, honesty and strong values, but not always. Some of the old idioms and proverbs are eternal, classic gems-'the apple doesn't fall far from the tree', 'a fool and his money are soon parted', 'hindsight is 20/20'. My father had a lot of them which I appreciate more with time.

[Omaha Steve]

20. Lie to women in order to get laid?

[riqster]

22. Yeah, quite the shocker, innit?

[sendero]

23. This article makes some good points....

... and then falls ways short of any reality in places. The idea that a man can walk away from his child support obligations is patently ridiculous.

I realize that laws vary from state to state, but in TX if you don't pay your CS you will be in a serious world of hurt up to and including jail.

My advice to women - if you cannot imagine raising a child with some man, DON'T SLEEP WITH HIM.

Problem solved.

[riqster]

33. Bollocks.

That last bit was a load of man-excusing, woman-blaming hogwash.
[blockquote
My advice to women - if you cannot imagine raising a child with some man, DON'T SLEEP WITH HIM.

Problem solved.

Crap. MRA talking-point crap.

[mythology]

51. Not having sex with somebody is still the only 100% foolproof method of contraception

well other than removing body parts. Even things like vasectomies have been known to reverse in a small number of cases. My mom was told by her doctor that she couldn't physically wasn't capable of having children. Apparently he was wrong.

It applies to both men and women. If you aren't willing to have a kid with somebody and you aren't willing to remove body parts, then not having sex with them is the only foolproof method to make sure pregnancy doesn't occur.

[PatrickforO]

55. True. Unfortunately abstinence has been proved not to work for the majority.

[wavesofeuphoria]

52. And what advice do you give men?

If you cannot imagine raising a child with some woman, DON'T SLEEP WITH HER.

Do guys say that to each other? Is that the message guys get?

[sendero]

81. Absolutely....

.... if you father a child it is your responsibility.

[Go Vols]

109. I agree 100%

I took my 5 and 8 yr old sons and moved when their sorry excuse for a mother decided she liked cocaine better than us.
Raised them both without a dime of support from anyone because they were my kids.

[appalachiablue]

72. And don't get raped by him, for Heaven's sake! Easy.

[riqster]

84. Ahhhh, her body can shut that whole thing down anyways.

[appalachiablue]

97. Sure, like how women can put aspirin between their legs. Or whip up some exotic 'herbal' stuff

at home, like Mamma told them, to make everything ok. It's a heavy subject this post. But critical that women have legal control of their bodies, absolutely. In too many cultures and for too long men haven't taken their actions and offspring seriously, and women bear the responsibility. This isn't going to change- until maybe we're 'post-human' androids and so high tech that another creation process evolves. Too much for me-

[F4lconF16]

74. And what about couples who are not ready

Financially, emotionally, physically, etc., to have a child? Are they not allowed to have sex? Things happen. Contraceptives are not foolproof.

MRA talking points is right.

[sendero]

85. That is not remotely the same thing...

.... so please don't act like it is. In such a case most likely the man would step up.

Everyone knows what I am talking about but we can't say it because there are two many people who cannot face the truth.

Why would any woman sleep with a guy they know is not father material and then act like they are the only aggrieved party when the unexpected happens? The freaking responsibility cuts BOTH WAYS.

[kcr]

87. Imagine that. Too many people who disagree with your opinion now how could that be?

Given it doesn't really make sense. It CUTS BOTH WAYS? Well, no shit. Isn't that the point being made? It seems that what some want is to allow one side off the hook completely, or at least whine about the responsibility that that side has as if it's such a grievance.

[sendero]

88. No...

..... in this OP and many others its just the evil man who is the problem.

Anyone who thinks that men are always the problem and women always sweet angels should GET OUT MORE and GROW UP.

[kcr]

91. Oh, we think it's evil men who are the problem?

That's your interpretation. I'm sorry that's you you feel, but oh well. It doesn't reflect reality. Thinking that women shouldn't bare the burden alone isn't hating men.

[sendero]

94. "Abortion is Legal Because So Many Men Are Lying, Thoughtless, Irresponsible Dicks"...

.... I rest my case.

[kcr]

95. Rest away, but I repeat. It doesn't reflect reality.

Men actually do run off and leave women to fend for themselves. All the time. It isn't rare. Is the headline kinda sorta mean? Well, I guess so. But so is running off after getting a woman pregnant and leaving her to deal with it all alone. I think that's deserving of scorn, so

[CrispyQ]

26. This sums it up pretty damned well:

...almost none of the recent restrictive state and local laws regarding abortion say Thing One about making men deal with their share of responsibility. These laws take away the rights of women while doing nothing to address the fundamental inequity that the Supreme Court sought to rectify. Small wonder, since most of these bills were written by male politicians, who are evidently lying, thoughtless, irresponsible dicks, taking care of themselves and their like-minded brethren.

It's about control of women, pure & simple. It's what the right-to-lifer's don't get. Once you put life in a hierarchy, once you say this life has more right than this life, your right-to-life argument has lost all validity.

[riqster]

31. Thanks. I could have written the OP better.

I am glad you got my point. I will work to improve my writing so my points are clearer.

[sinkingfeeling]

56. +10000

[smirkymonkey]

115. +1000

[Iggo]

34. Abortion is legal because women are people.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

36. +1,000,000

[Spitfire of ATJ]

37. Here and I thought it was about a right to privacy in the Constitution.

[JDPriestly]

63. Good point!

But in Casey, it is also about the pain and suffering and burden of the woman. The Sandra Day O'Connor wording is important. As a woman, I agree with Sandra Day O'Connor on that.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

112. I heard once that Thurgood Marshall had a bullet fired into his home afterwards....

It hit an antique wingback chair near a fireplace and he was upset about it only because the fabric used to repair it didn't quite match the other chair.

[Major Nikon]

118. Never let reality get in the way of a good rant

[SheilaT]

38. I have long said that if women would simply

give full custody of children to fathers more of the time, so that they'd finally get how hard it really is to be a single parent, then maybe more of them would get it.

Or, if a woman forced to bear a child because she exercise control over her body, she ought to drop the new-born on the father, preferably in a public manner and in a public place.

Most women are far too responsible and care too much for their children to do this, to hand them over willy-nilly to an irresponsible dick. But the way *men* carry on as if they are magically never responsible for the pregnancies that are aborted, or the children being raised by a woman alone, just enrages me.

[CTyankee]

41. Interesting point you make here.

I have developed my own argument for the absolute necessity of ensuring a woman's right to choose: the moral agency of women. At the argument's basis is the idea that women are moral agents who can make such decisions for themselves. Without moral choice, we cannot be fully human beings. Indeed, it is one of the basic markers of being human. To me, moral choice and the ability to create art are what separates us from other animals on this earth.

[riqster]

42. I like it.

Far removed from the Teavangelical " woman and talking snake are the root of evil" claptrap one hears so much these days.

[Orrex]

45. That subject line is also why a male birth control pill isn't a great idea

"Sure I took my pill," he said.


Hmm...

[riqster]

46. Right up there with checks being in the mail.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

47. Women pay child support, too.

That's what he did to punish me.

I told him I was pregnant. We were already married for six months and I was on his health insurance. He immediately told me to have an abortion because "we couldn't afford it".

He had a good job and good insurance. I said "No.". I knew if I'd let force me I wouldn't be able to live with myself. Then later, during the divorce, he told people that I "tricked" him. He was too good to wear a rubber, I guess. We never discussed birth control. He started in on me about how "We agreed we wouldn't have kids now...." blah blah which was totally imagined by him. I figured he thought if he could control me and make me have an abortion, and I got pregnant again, then he could wait until I was not fertile anymore. I saw through that. He was an irresponsible narcissist accusing me of being irresponsible.

Eventually he was so emotionally abusive I got sick and was sick for several years, in and out of the hospital, because of his abuse, and gave him custody. I had to pay him child support even though I had a doctorate and couldn't find a job. He had a good steady job and didn't graduate from college. Texas is a community property state and women are presumed equal to men in ability to support the family, due to the Spanish law influence from Mexico, which is far more equal than English and French law (Code Napoleon in Louisiana).

You hear about men who want to force women to have children and you don't hear about men who want to force women to have abortions. I said "No" and have a beautiful grown child. I didn't want my family to die out and I wanted to experience motherhood, and hopefully raise a happy, healthy person.

I'm staunchly pro-choice and am a third-generation Democrat.

[kcr]

49. A lot of people think courts are biased against men

The idea that women pay child support also rarely figures into the conversation. Child support is seen as the other side of the coin and therefore some kind of balance in the choice discussion when really they are two completely separate issues.

[appalachiablue]

96. I hope I live to see real identification and research of narcissist and sociopath personalities

and distinction from 'normal' selfishness and self-absorbed behavior. These conditions can cause a lot of harm and take years off a person's life. Unfortunately the damage is not well understood or appreciated although more information is coming out. Narcissist is often used too casually and is thrown around a lot lately. Sounds like you had a very hard time of it, but glad you got out and had a wonderful child. Good for you. (The part about the imagined "we talked about not having kids" is recognizable and must be fairly common language, like how you "trapped him". These lies seem widespread, old as the hills perhaps).

[SpankMe]

50. This absolutley true.

And I'm a male!

I get in trouble for saying this every time, but: Women don't get pregnant. Rather, men get women pregnant.

"Trust me, baby, I'll pull out in time."

Women must have total control over their reproductive destiny.

[riqster]

57. Men and women create a pregnancy together.

Too bad equity in the post-creation process relies on men doing the right thing.

[PatrickforO]

54. This is a really great post!

[PatrynXX]

58. Good you keep doing that. prove that pro life idiots are not pro life

how to get into a long rant. with an ex pastor argue over abortion. the fight is worth it because they are trying to save lives. meanwhile so are we.. kills the argument keep it up

[JDPriestly]

59. K&R. But the OP does not begin to deal with the huge problem of unwanted or unhealthy

pregnancies. It isn't just a matter of raising a child alone as a woman whose potential earnings are lower than a man's in the best of situations and whose ability to earn a living is further lowered as a single mother.

There are health problems involved in pregnancy. A woman's life is placed in jeopardy during and after pregnancy. And then there is the added problem that some women face of bringing a disabled child into the world, a child that the woman may or may not be able to care for because of the child's disability from birth.

A friend of mine had a child with spina bifida. She loved her child although it remained virtually an infant for a number of years -- the length of the child's life. But it was very difficult. Not all women, not all families can deal with an infant who remains helpless year after year. Others find great joy in caring for that child. Whether the parent is up to that task should be the parent's decision.

Of course, we could as a society agree to work together to support parents, single mothers, mothers whose children are disabled. But so far, in America, we have not found that political resolve. Wealthy people may be able to afford a couple of nannies for their kids, but a poor mother with a fatherless child or with a very disabled child will probably have no help at all and be expected to work on top of it.

So the problem of choice and abortion is very complicated. The decision has to be left up to the mother. If we did not have the right to choose, we would have illegal abortion. And that is worse than what we have now.

[riqster]

69. Granted the OP had a narrow focus.

I agree with your post. Women must have the sole and exclusive choice.

[yallerdawg]

60. How men behave is irrelevant!

A woman's right to manage her body, life and health is a fundamental universal right.

The Supreme Court has ruled this is a right.

And isn't this outrageous sexism? Laws and restrictions only applied to women?

When women are in charge, I hope they aren't vindictive.

[alarimer]

62. I get what you are saying and I agree up to a point.

But even if men did the right thing (which is presumably to take care of the results of their sexual activities, if that's how you choose to define it), women would still have abortions. Women have abortions for lots of reasons, not just because they can't afford to keep and care for a child. Some times, they simply do not want a child. Period. They shouldn't be forced to have one, just because some guy decided to "live up to his responsibilities" (or was forced to by law, which I'm not sure is really in the best interests of anyone).

But you are right in that no mention is ever made of the responsibilities of the other party. I have an issue with this because once you go down that road, and talk about rights and responsibilities of men, it brings up the thorny question of whether a guy should be able to force a woman to have a child, just because he is willing to take care of it, even without her participation.

I believe legally, if we want women to have the right to not be a parent if they so choose, we also have to allow men to opt out, if they so choose.

The other side of the question is thornier still, where men are forced to pay child support for children they do not want. I know courts have argued that it's in the best interest of the child, but I have my doubts that having a disinterested parent does the kid any good at all.

[Tsiyu]

64. Thank you Marcia Blackburn for sponsoring your anti-abortion bill

You've proven that you hate the women of Tennessee, and that YOU think you own us!

And this OP is excellent. I thought we fought these battles already. At my age, it is so depressing to know that greedy pigs are in charge, who think they OWN women like chattel.

They never call men to account for shit, though. EVER. Most of Congress probably sleep with prostitutes, Haslam too, and Blackburn probably has her a few boy toys on the side, but heaven forbid the POOR have sex!

[riqster]

68. Good point about poverty.

Wealthy women can always travel to get an abortion. So the pro-choice laws are really needed for the poor and working classes.

[Tsiyu]

73. Yes indeed.

like I said in the other post, there are third World nations with better access to medical, dental and mental health care than in Tennessee in the year 2015.

Thanks Marcia Blackburn! I'm glad you own all us women and know what's best for us! We don't need jobs, we don't need medical care, we don't need child care or decent transportation! Oh HELL no! We need Marcia Blackburn to come monitor our tampon and maxi-pad usage. We need Marcia Blackburn and all the other Republicans to reign in our ladyparts! Stare into our vaginas and make sure nothing is amiss. As long as Marcia Blackburn can control other women's vaginas, everything will be great!

Oh, and DO NOT call Marcia Blackburn's office in DC at 202-225-2811 and say the words "Vagina or uterus" or they will hang up on you. Her male aids can help her draft legislation about VAGINAS AND UTERI, but if you say those words, you are cursing at them!

They will be TAINTED by mentioning the medical terms for the female body parts they think they OWN and seek to control. Can you say MEDIEVAL? MALE MISOGYNISTS work for Marcia Blackburn, but that figures; they are Republicans and cannot help but have a seething hatred for women. Even when their boss IS a women.

Oh, and FUCK YOU Marcia Blackburn. Just, FUCK YOU.

[tblue37]

65. As much as I support reproductive choice, I truly hate to see such broad-brush

(and virulent) bashing of men.

Yes, some men fit that description, but a lot of women are also irresponsible and selfish. I don't think it is wise or fair to hang support of our pro-choice position on such ugly name-calling. It is bound to alienate more potential supporters than it could ever appeal to!

[riqster]

75. Speaking as a male, I can tell when a "so many men do xyz" statement doesn't apply to me.

If the shoe doesn't fit, don't put it on.

[kcr]

83. Really? Do you think it doesn't happen a lot? That it's actually rare?

It didn't say all men or even most. It said many. Which is true. Those who would object to this being pointed out are not potential supporters.

[dilby]

77. Maybe you need to change the way your State handles court order child support.

In the State of Oregon child support is serious, when you get a divorce or even a legal separation it's the first thing determined and it's determined by the fathers wages. It is also garnished directly from your wages so it goes directly to the mother. The only way around this is if someone is self employed and that is such a small number of men it does not matter. I pay $1200 a month for two children in Oregon.

[riqster]

80. It's a federal right and child support is only part of the obligation.

Pregnancy and Birth are an example of a situation that is not addressed by child support.

And the day-to-day burden of being a single parent is only partly ameliorated by a child support check.

[dilby]

86. There is no law that says a mother has to keep a child after giving birth.

She is completely free to give the child to the father or give the child up for adoption. If a mother keeps the child it's by choice.

[riqster]

89. Classic MRA false equivalence crap.

Women bear a higher burden than men. Fact.

[kcr]

93. But what do you mean? Like, isn't there craigslist or something?

What's so hard, duh?

[dilby]

98. What is your point?

You complain that men are lying dicks and that they don't carry the burden and avoid child support. I pointed out you can change the laws in your state to make sure men pay their fair share. You complain that women are still burdened by kids. I pointed out that women can surrender their rights to be moms. At what fucking point do you accept responsibility for procreating? There is birth control, abortion and abstinence, its your body, your right so fucking use it.

[riqster]

100. Ah yes, it's all on the woman, eh? MRA crap.

Anybody who still wonders why I wrote the OP...

[dilby]

102. Take your issue up with nature and evolution.

You obviously like to complain about stuff no one has control over.

[riqster]

104. Had you read the OP, you'd know that I acknowledged Nature.

And said the Supreme Court used law to address some of the legal consequences of nature. Thus Roe v. Wade.

[kcr]

90. Yes, but she still has to do something

She can't just shut it in a drawer somewhere, oh well, ldidn't want to be a mom, la la la. And it's not as if any of those choices are a matter of dropping them off at the local baby shelter, dusting off her hands and, whelp, that's that! Reducing it to a simple choice so you can make a false equivalence is easy. But imagine suddenly you have someone right now who has a live baby they need to get rid of, right now! Quick, what do you do? And you don't want to get arrested or make any decision that marks you negatively because you would like to have a future. Not so easy, is it? Because there is no easy way to do that, because people aren't so facille about giving up their children. It doesn't happen like that. They aren't puppies.

[riqster]

106. Well said.

[kelly1mm]

129. You mean the non-custodial parents wages and that suport is given to the custodial parent, correct?

Surely you are not saying that only mothers get custody in Oregon, right?

[misterhighwasted]

79. And Ban Viagra Also

Fun without the consequences. Grrrrrrrrr

[TheKentuckian]

82. Damn, I thought it was because medical decisions are a private matter between patients and doctors

and because women have autonomy over their own bodies.

Can one be a right wing fundie yet be so from a secular point of view? This seems close.

[madamesilverspurs]

103. Until power is equally shared...

[riqster]

105. Totally stealing!

[Augustus]

107. "Lying, thoughtless, irresponsible"?

The person who wrote this headline and this post ought to be ashamed with himself. The very premise of this writing is sexist at its core. It's basically saying that women who choose to have sex with men are
1) doing so under the assumption that they're expecting monetary compensation from those men
2) incapable of supporting themselves in the case of pregnancy
3) gullible and easily manipulated by those men who tell them lies, as if their choosing to have sex required some convincing

All three of these assumptions are despicably sexist. Women are perfectly capable of deciding who to have sex with and are perfectly capable of weighing the possible risks and consequences of their decisions. A women incapable of supporting a child who doesn't take the necessary precautions is just as irresponsible as the man she has sex with.

While I understand the writer's point about abortion evening the playing field, so to speak (the man can cut and run, the woman should have the right to choose to end the pregnancy), he could have made this point without the condescending, 1950's mentality that he clearly still harbors toward women.

[riqster]

108. That is completely wrong.

You seem to think that bad conduct on the part of men reflects somehow on the victims of the man in question.

That is not what I meant, and was not what I said. You are projecting your own load of sexist balderdash onto my post.

Crap. I called men out clearly and specifically.

[Augustus]

110. Women don't need men to "save" them

The crux of the whole screed pretty much boils down to the idea that women need men to save them from their own choices. Oh no, what is the poor damsel in distress to do now that she's pregnant and doesn't have a man to support her? Such an irresponsible dick of him to lie to her so she would have sex with him (because, as we know, women can't actually choose to have sex because they want it too, they need to be lied to by those lying liars).

Look at what you just posted:

You seem to think that bad conduct on the part of men reflects somehow on the victims of the man in question.

So now they're "victims"? Victims of what? Unless you're talking about rape, they haven't been victimized by anybody for having consensual sex with a man because they wanted to have sex with that man. And while a man might skip out on the child support, which is a dick thing to do, that doesn't make the woman any less irresponsible if she can't afford to have a child, which is the other sexist assumption made - That women are unable to discern whether or not they can afford to have a baby before they have sex.

[riqster]

111. Projecting nonsense again.

Nowhere did I say that women need saved. And hell yes, when a human hurts another human, they are perpetrators. Perps have victims.

Go find an actual sexist to abuse.

[Augustus]

116. You're implying it

Which human got hurt by having consensual sex? The woman? You're implying that a woman is a victim for having sex. Why is the man not a victim? This is textbook benevolent sexism that you're displaying here.

Women are "victims" because they're so emotional and so easily manipulated by those men who "trick" them into having sex and then cut and run when they get pregnant. Sorry, but women are not that stupid, women can be just as culpable for an unwanted pregnancy, and women aren't so dependant and incapable that they have to "resort" to an abortion because the man who impregnated them doesn't pay up after the fact.

Yes, you said all of these things. Read it.

[riqster]

117. What I said is what I said. And I said nothing else.

Here is a mirror for you: see the resemblance?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Psychological projection is a theory in psychology in which humans defend themselves against unpleasant impulses by denying their existence in themselves, while attributing them to others.[1] For example, a person who is rude may constantly accuse other people of being rude.

According to some research, the projection of one's negative qualities onto others is a common process in everyday life.[2]

[Threedifferentones]

113. This title is BS flamtebait.

Furthermore it implies that if men do not abandon then abortion is the wrong choice, which is an assumption I believe does not meet the standard of DU.

Abortion is legal because it is a woman's right to determine when she will attempt to carry out a pregnancy, period, end of story. I think that is the standard of DU.

Fathers all sticking around does not mean abortion will end or become wrong or illegal.

[randome]

114. .

[Crunchy Frog]

119. Sometimes women have abortions simply because they don't want to have a baby.

No matter how accountable the male party may be. It's not all about you, believe it or not.

I would be in favor of abortion rights even if all of us reproduced parthenogenically. It's a physiological and psychological ordeal that a person should only go through voluntarily. Not all women want to go through it. Others only want to go through it once they're at a certain place in their lives.

I think that this article is a crock.

[jimlup]

120. I would never endorse an article which generalizes about men like this

Put against any other group this would be considered offensive.

Just say'n

And by the way, some men are not and furthermore "men" in general are the other half of the species to which we all belong. We are your fathers, brothers and sons as well as sometimes your lovers.

[riqster]

122. Nowhere does it say all men.

If the shoe does not fit, don't put it on.

[jimlup]

125. Nevertheless I find both the title and discussion offensive because of generailizations

As I explained - if such platitudes were declared against any other group here on DU it would be considered discrimination.

[hughee99]

121. Okay, should we thank men for being "lying, thoughtless, irresponsible dicks"? n/t

[IronLionZion]

126. How about a Joni Ernst solution to the male problem?

Cut us all and make us squeal!

The OP also unwittingly makes the deeply misogynist claim that women are just too stupid to choose .... who to have consensual sex with.

Tip for any bigots of any type, blanket hatred towards any demographic can always be turned back on you.

[riqster]

127. Unwitting nothing. I am fully aware of what I wrote.

I said nothing remotely derogatory about women.