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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFlight Logs Put Clinton, Dershowitz on Pedophile Billionaire’s Sex Jet
http://gawker.com/flight-logs-put-clinton-dershowitz-on-pedophile-billio-1681039971Flight Logs Put Clinton, Dershowitz on Pedophile Billionaire’s Sex Jet
Nick Bryant
1/22/15 2:55pm Thursday 2:55pm
Flight Logs Put Clinton, Dershowitz on Pedophile Billionaire’s Sex Jet
Bill Clinton took repeated trips on the " Lolita Express"—the private passenger jet owned by billionaire pedophile Jeffrey Epstein—with an actress in softcore porn movies whose name appears in Epstein's address book under an entry for "massages," according to flight logbooks obtained by Gawker and published today for the first time. The logs also show that Clinton shared more than a dozen flights with a woman who federal prosecutors believe procured underage girls to sexually service Epstein and his friends and acted as a "potential co-conspirator" in his crimes.
Epstein pleaded guilty in 2008 in Florida to one count of soliciting underage girls for sex (and one count of adult solicitation), for which he served just over a year in county jail. But sprawling local, state, and federal investigations into the eccentric investor's habit of paying teen girls for "massages"—sessions during which he would allegedly penetrate girls with sex toys, demand to be masturbated, and have intercourse—turned up a massive network of victims, including 35 female minors whom federal prosecutors believed he'd sexually abused. He has reportedly settled lawsuits from more than 30 "Jane Doe" victims since 2008; the youngest alleged victim was 12 years old at the time of her abuse.
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Who is Jeffrey Epstein? Click here for our primer about the billionaire pedophile.
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Epstein's predatory past, and his now-inconvenient relationships with a Who's Who of the Davos set, hit the front pages again earlier this month when one of his victims, Virginia Roberts, claimed in a federal court filing that Epstein recruited her as a "sex slave" at the age of 15 and "sexually trafficked [her] to politically-connected and financially-powerful people," including Prince Andrew and attorney Alan Dershowitz. (The latter, the filing claimed, had sex with the victim "on private planes"; Dershowitz vigorously denies the charges, as does Prince Andrew.)
Two female associates of Epstein—the socialite Ghislaine Maxwell and Epstein's former assistant Sarah Kellen—have been repeatedly accused in court filings of acting as pimps for him, recruiting and grooming young girls into their network of child sex workers, and frequently participating in sex acts with them. Kellen in particular was believed by detectives in the Palm Beach Police Department, which was the first to start unraveling the operation, to be so deeply involved in the enterprise that they prepared a warrant for her arrest as an accessory to molestation and sex with minors. In the end, she was never arrested or charged, and federal prosecutors granted her immunity in a 2007 non-prosecution agreement that described her as a "potential co-conspirator" in sex trafficking.
Flight Logs Put Clinton, Dershowitz on Pedophile Billionaire’s Sex Jet
Maxwell, the daughter of the late media mogul Robert Maxwell, has been accused by Roberts of photographing Epstein's victims "in sexually explicit poses and [keeping] the child pornography on her computer," and "engag[ing] in lesbian sex with the underage females she procured for Epstein." She has denied the allegations in the past.
Clinton shared Epstein's plane with Kellen and Maxwell on at least 11 flights in 2002 and 2003—before any of the allegations against them became public—according to the pilots' logbooks, which have surfaced in civil litigation surrounding Epstein's crimes. In January 2002, for instance, Clinton, his aide Doug Band, and Clinton's Secret Service detail are listed on a flight from Japan to Hong Kong with Epstein, Maxwell, Kellen, and two women described only as "Janice" and "Jessica." One month later, records show, Clinton hopped a ride from Miami to Westchester on a flight that also included Epstein, Maxwell, Kellen, and a woman described only as "one female."
Flight Logs Put Clinton, Dershowitz on Pedophile Billionaire’s Sex Jet
In 2002, as New York has reported, Clinton recruited Epstein to make his plane available for a week-long anti-poverty and anti-AIDS tour of Africa with Kevin Spacey, Chris Tucker, billionaire creep Ron Burkle, Clinton confidant Gayle Smith (who now serves on Barack Obama's National Security Council), and others. The logs from that trip show that Maxwell, Kellen, and a woman named Chauntae Davis joined the entourage for five days.
That last name—Chauntae Davies—shows up elsewhere in papers unearthed by the various investigations into Epstein's sex ring: his little black book. Davies is one of 27 women listed in the book under an entry for "Massage- California," one of six lists of massage girls Epstein kept in various locales, with a total of 160 names around the globe, many of them underage victims.
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TheNutcracker
(2,104 posts)Not good for the upcoming race. This girl pressing charges did not just do this recently. This came out over a year ago. Now that the papers are winding through the courts, it's coming out.
After she filed charges, Clinton was flying with him again.
To keep Epstein alive? He must stay alive, so the 'pictures' don't come into play. This girl who was trafficked says the homes were outfitted with cameras. Ala Larry E. King of the Franklin Scandal!
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)is shit. little girls. Prince Andrew and Bill clinton. peas in a pod.
The rich. They aren't like you and me.
Good luck being President, Hillary, when this really gets going.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)
appalachiablue
(42,291 posts)reckless & dangerous for the Dem. Party & foremost us, The People. This puts us in a heck of a situation with two years to go & few choices even as great as Bernie Sanders & Eliz. Warren are. Additional self-inflicted damage from a compulsive, entitled, selfish man with real illness who got off at least twice already- Jen Flowers & Lewinsky. No more. Even if we nominate a Saint, this scandal will fill the media & damage our chances. Thanks Bubba, strikes again.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)I'm already hearing peeps about the sexism in this discussion of Bill's latest adventures, aparently it's sexism against Hillary when Bill is the one who treats women like trash. He humiliates his family and comes out laughing and blushing about it, he uses women like kitchen utensils and that;s such a cool thing to do. Ah, Bill ya ole dog you.
appalachiablue
(42,291 posts)a personable charmer, less so now. I've been through this for 23 years since Jen Flowers in 1992. That was a real shocker, so hard to stomach him but carried on. This news is concerning as said in my posts, that he would jeopardize her chances, the Party, the people in such a time of need. But it's always that way with the selfish, compulsive, addicted or whatever types- it's all about them.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)She could have left Bill a long time ago.
get the red out
(13,511 posts)But whether or not, he's hauling some BAGGAGE, and that can't do her campaign any good. Nor the Democratic party. This is worse baggage than I ever knew about.
merrily
(45,251 posts)when it's a one sided open relationship, isn't it simply cheating and being cheated on?
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)I won't repeat it here but I'm sure if you google it you'll find some info
merrily
(45,251 posts)Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)I think it comes from disney fairy tales or something. The idea that the cheated on woman is somehow powerless and unable to herself be sexually free. Women often are portrayed as powerless victims, which is itself a strange stereotype.
Many many couples have discrete agreements and understandings. It's probably none of our business anyway.
I don't really care if a man or a woman has a mistress. It shows they can multitask and are social beings. Pity more those that don't.
Fairy tales of love are just that, they set up unreasonable expectations that we are naturally monogamous, which we are not.
Obviously referencing consenting adults.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Even though the media used to maintain codes of silence back in the day, we also have fairly credible evidence that Eleanor Roosevelt had at least one female lover and I have no problem believing that. Whether she came to that independently or because of FDR's dalliances is a question in my mind, but I believe the evidence shows that she had an affair.
We have fairly solid evidence that Bill has had extra marital affairs. I saw nothing from a credible source saying Hillary had them. Moreover, if there were an open marriage, why would Bill not have been honest about Monica, as opposed to letting Hillary make a fool of herself on the Today Show?
It's probably none of our business anyway.
You brought up open marriage. And I always disagreed with the meme that the Clenis was none of our business.
I think breaking a marriage vow--or any vow--says something about character. Not holier than thou, here. If I broke my vow, it would say something about my character, too.
According to Flowers, she and Bill had sex in the john at the Governor's mansion during official events. That says something about judgment and too risky behavior, IMO. The Paula Jones thing, if true, was not a mere affair, but just awful all the way around. And both Gennifer and Paula were his employees while he was an elected official. Monica was an intern. He was "the boss" in all three instances.
We know Monica gave him a bj while he was on a call with a head of state.
His lying about his affairs led to an impeachment. Second of a President in all of US history. And just imagine having to teach THAT high school history lesson.
None of the above was my business? Why the hell not? It isn't now, either, now that my party apparently wants to drag us through it all again? Why not?
As far as Hillary, so many have made her the poster child for feminism. So, it does indeed make a difference in my mind if she and Bill struck an equal bargain about their marriage or whether he cheats on her repeatedly and she just takes it and takes it.
whathehell
(29,518 posts)I've heard they actually "live in", not just "own" two different houses, his in
New York, hers in DC.
Whatever the story there, I don't care, but KIDS?!..No, that will NOT fly,
if true, and I truly hope it's not. 
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)But yes, for an ex-president to be doing this - he should have known better.
And you can't say he had no inkling, because given that he was in the plane with the girls, he did. There is just no way he didn't have an idea, and he had already had enough problems with his past connections so that he should have known not to do this. Nor did he have to beg a ride from a person like this. It strongly suggests that the girls were the draw.
This is not one of those stories that can be put down. It's better to let it hit now and for everyone to at least get used to the disgust.
I feel very sorry for Hillary and Chelsea - but people are what they are and you can't change that.
appalachiablue
(42,291 posts)multiple affairs and adultery going back to his terms as Arkansas Governor when he had the State Police Troopers procure for him, women like Paula Jones. She was another long legal case and media spectacle, maybe you remember it during his second term.
In 1992 his first year campaign for Pres. he had to face up to Jenifer Flowers, the attractive PR woman in Texas he was having a 6 year affair with up to the campaign. He and Hillary did a grim public address together about it; it was hard to swallow and really uncomfortable to see. Then the Lewinsky ordeal came up.
That he's a serial, habitual woman chaser and a huge liability is fact. To expect the GOP, Media and voters to ignore this, esp. from him is delusional. The Dem. Party and this country, the left particularly, can't afford more sleazy associations and behavior- giving the GOP the gun to shoot her with as one DUer wrote. In another post I commented also that this is very unfair to Hillary, Chelsea and husband and child.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)I was thinking this over last night, and the problem is (I am a woman) that we all know of people like Bill Clinton. They're men in power. They think with their dicks. They do a lot of damage to women's lives. They may be cops, executives, politicians or business owners, but in some way they all seek power in part because they have a kink and a twist and they are driven to it.
And they sometimes have women who cover for them. No matter how sympathetic one is to Hillary, the fact is that she did in some sense enable his political career by her silence and her ability to shut down media coverage.
The fact that this has to do with underage girls - ah, some people will react and just not vote for her. Their gut won't let them do it.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Haven't we had enough of Bill Clinton? If we nominate Hillary, we'll have to deal with his "indiscretions" all over again, ad nauseum. And, if he did indeed spend time with Epstein, who did not face the consequences any POOR "common folk" pedophile would face, then he is a time bomb ticking away. He disgusts me, and I think you are right--quite a few people I know would not support Hillary because of this.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)No way.
merrily
(45,251 posts)I don't think we have anywhere near enough facts yet to say he was guilty of doing anything with minors. I meant she puts up with his behavior in general.
TheNutcracker
(2,104 posts)Then use it against us later.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)appalachiablue
(42,291 posts)TheNutcracker
(2,104 posts)
Hekate
(93,461 posts)...immediately if not sooner. Why do you think if this topic is stinking up the conversation now it won't be "used against us later"?
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)As reported in The Atlantic: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/01/the-juiciest-revelations-in-game-change/33226/
"The war room within a war room dismissed or discredited much of the gossip floating around, but not all of it. The stories about one woman were more concrete, and after some discreet fact-finding, the group concluded that they were true: that BIll was indeed having an affair -- and not a frivolous one-night stand but a sustained romantic relationship. .... For months, thereafter, the war room within a war room braced for the explosion, which her aides knew could come at any moment."
The authors do not identify the woman.
The Democrats need this kind of salacious crap like they need a hole in the head. A good reason in itself for the party to look past the Clintons for a candidate in 2016.
TheNutcracker
(2,104 posts)adigal
(7,581 posts)It's the only way she'll win. Or she might just kill her husband, or at least want to.
Divernan
(15,480 posts)If she wouldn't kick his sorry ass to the curb after he not only lied to her about Lewinsky but got her to repeat his lies on national TV, with the consequent international humiliation at the hands of her charming husband, I can't see her "separating" from him now as convincing anyone she cares about anything but the negative publicity - granted she MIGHT do it if her private polling says this will get her the nomination. Granted, all the women who turn a blind eye to their own husbands' adulterous behaviors may take comfort from Hillary's acceptance of Bill's lifelong cheating. But I have no respect for her as a woman. She makes a mockery of feminism. And what a miserable role model for marriage they gave their own daughter.
No wonder there was a Secret Service prostitution scandal - after decades of watching the Big Dog screw around, it must have seemed just business as usual. If Clinton could do it, why couldn't they?
appalachiablue
(42,291 posts)unfortunately. It took a lot for me to get past he Jen Flowers incident, that was huge, shocking with such a young attractive couple like the Clintons and the Gores. It was the beginning warning, for the public. It's very ugly, painful and shameful for the children, wives, families, neighbors. Many women have to or will endure it.
Remember CO Pres. candidate Gary Hart and the Money Business party boat with Donna Rice? Henry Cisneros, Bill's HUD Secy. had a an affair and during it his son was born with a serious heart condition, considered punishment by some. Before that there was RR with Jane Wyman, JFK, Ted K., FDR, Harding's antics, and whoever before that. Woody Wilson's nickname was appropriate. Awful subject and reality.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Nixon's scandals weren't about sex but were far more damaging to our country. Same for GWBush.
appalachiablue
(42,291 posts)chauffeur and later secretary until the end of the war. A career officer brother in law of a woman I worked with heard the discussion Ike had with General George Marshall in 1945 in Washington. He said Marshall told Ike that if he married Summersby his career was over. Some claim instead that Ike met with Marshall to request bringing Mamie, his wife to Europe. Summersby's 1952 marriage to a NY stockbroker was brief and ended in divorce.
We'll never know the full nature of the personal affairs and relationships of many public figures, J. Edgar Hoover, R.E Lee, Lincoln. I was just reading about Bush Sr.'s long term relationship with a staffer in Washington that was posted by a DUer recently.
ripcord
(5,553 posts)TheNutcracker
(2,104 posts)appalachiablue
(42,291 posts)is burned out, who knows. No she's not at fault at all, and to read that he was hanging with Epstein bill. partyman in 2001-02, then 2008 when she was running hard in the Pres. Campaign that he supported is so bizarre. He wants her in office, and he wants to maintain his and their legacy- but can't stop putting himself in danger-like an alcoholic, gambler, any other risk addiction.
They've been married 39 years, she went after him about women years back in the Arkansas Governor's Mansion, then had him watched in the WH. That was in staff books, writings like George Steph. I think. It must be exhausting, or else get away from it physically and mentally if you can. Eleanor R., many, many women of all times and cultures have gone through it and their children and families.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 25, 2015, 04:41 AM - Edit history (1)
Tall with dark hair. In her forties. I don't want this shit again. No more clintons.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)I too am so over this sordid mess and don't want it back in the White House.
What I find surreal are Clinton apologists claiming sexism perpetrated against the Clintons when the truth is Bill Clinton as an older, powerful male took/takes advantage of young, virtually powerless women, and Hillary enables his sexist horseshit by implied consent with her silence.
There’s a great article up at The Nation on ‘The Lewinsky Double Standard’. It discusses how differently we view men who have sex with much younger, less powerful women and women who have sex with older, more powerful men. Admitting an affair with an older, powerful man can, for many women, have severe consequences:"Clinton’s reputation has largely recovered from the affair that sparked his impeachment trial; Lewinsky’s never did. She got a master’s degree from the London School of Economics, hoping to do communications for a charity, but has been unable to get a full-time job. “Because of what potential employers so tactfully referred to as my ‘history,’ I was never ‘quite right’ for the position,” she writes, noting that the only offers she’s gotten have been those that would market her notoriety. She’s watched her friends marry and have children, their lives moving forward while hers has not. “With every man I date…I go through some degree of 1998 whiplash,” she writes. Imagine, at 40, being defined by a blowjob you gave at 22. Lewinsky is scarcely exaggerating when she compares herself to Hester Prynne. Her life has been deformed by slut-shaming, a phrase that had not yet been coined when she was catapulted into infamy."
And, perhaps discouragingly, this is sometimes an area in which feminists have contributed to the harm:"During the scandal, the primary feminist argument was about sexual harassment, about whether or not the affair was consensual. In their zeal to argue that the dalliance wasn’t exploitative—and thus that Clinton hadn’t committed a public transgression—some feminists went so far as to argue that Clinton was Lewinsky’s victim. “Here’s a cute, sexy, young president, he’s known to have had a lot of sexual affairs,” said Erica Jong during an all-female discussion of the scandal that The New York Observer convened at Le Bernardin. “He might stimulate the fantasies of all the young women who work in the office. And particularly the ones who are a bit father-obsessed and obsessed with older men and feel neglected. So, it’s possible that Clinton has had many more such attacks than we even think.” Attacks! As if the poor president only capitulated under the intern’s siege. There was little room, back then, to see Lewinsky as both an active agent in the affair and a person whose dignity and privacy deserved protection."
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)Who brought up Lewinski's past, who she slept with and how old they were, etc., all in rage and anger and how disgusting Lewinski was tempting the wonderful little Billy with her witchery ways - same type of attacks on her as on a victim in a rape trial.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)How insupportable of you to throw out that bon mot without a scintilla of proof.
I don't know a single feminist on this forum who holds anyone other than Bill Clinton responsible for his sexual proclivities. I would have to see such a post before I'd believe it.
So, let's see it. Where is it?
zappaman
(20,607 posts)But nice to see DUers helping Repubs smear.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)but your response got me thinking. I do recall one specific incident that I can post here around which was a related conversation. I cannot, however, state with any real certainty whether or not the person(s) with whom I am conversing is/are in reality feminists, that being the sticking point in my example in response to your specific question.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8205925&mesg_id=8210476
OLDMADAM
(82 posts)I not only fear we could lose the election because of Bill's behaviors, past and present, but even if we win, what then? Four or more years of scandal, accusations, revelations, followed by deceits, lies, cover-ups, and mental gymnastics to distort the facts..
Anyone that doubts this isn't a possibility is an idiot or troll, wanting to bait us into placing our future, and the future of our party, not to speak of the millions of our country already in jeopardy.. And like Bill, what will Pres. Hillary do to deflect the attention away from the obvious, bomb, cut taxes, cut welfare, SS, Safety net deals???
Hardly a speculation, but an anvil ready to fall on our heads.. Sorry, fire away, I ready for this fight, better now than later..
merrily
(45,251 posts)Also, what kind of victory is it to have the first female President (if she actually makes it--which I doubt) be a perpetuallly wronged wife who would rather keep putting up; with this shit and falling for his lies than leave him?
It was clear when she was getting grilled by Matt Lauer that he (Bubba) had let her go on that show, where she was 100% sure to get grilled about Monica, to make a fool of herself defending him. "Vast right wing conspiracy?" No, dear, just your husband cheating on you. Yet again.
How did she keep falling for his lies?
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)and how disastrous it would have been for him to have won then the scandal revealed to be truth?
You would think this kind of story in the OP would have the same reaction, but no. The story has to be false or if you think there may be some truth in it, you must be a Right winger.
We cannot afford having a possible WH with Hillary and with this continual Clinton dripping pus of their dramas.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)as I do not believe Hillary is one either. But generally, I have to question people that forgive Bill for things they would not forgive anyone else for.
Sorry, no links, I guess you will have to have a sleepness night worrying about it.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)To this day he gets a free pass for his appalingly
reckless and inappropriate behavior.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Nor from countless other women who recognize his narcissistic drive to get his rocks off no matter who it hurts.
I have said this of other popular presidents: beware putting such individuals on pedestals lest you see their feet of clay.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)I don't think so.
Dredging up one "example" that may or may not have been advanced by a feminist does not support your insupportable claim.
Just as I suspected...
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)It's completely different for me, I am not torn at all because I see clearly that neither Hillary nor Bill treat women with respect and do not deserve my support as a feminist.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)So, now we're talking about women who are not true Feminists?
I stand by my initial rebuttal. I do not know of any true Feminists who dismiss or diminish or deflect responsibility for Bill Clinton's sexual proclivities.
(Whenever I read a statement that begins with "There are others...," I am reminded of our slanted and partisan media. That's a common ploy on almost all of our co-opted media. I am repulsed when I see this on DU.)
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)the dress and even more important would have had it dry-cleaned. Something very strange about that dress part of the story. Who in the world would save such a thing? For her grandchildren? What was that about?
chervilant
(8,267 posts)In November 1997, Monica Lewinsky told her confidant and supposed friend, Linda Tripp, that she had in her possession a blue Gap dress that still bore the semen stain that resulted from her administering oral sex to President Clinton in February of that year.
Tripp called her literary agent, and fellow Clinton-hater, Lucianne Goldberg to report the news that evidence existed in Lewinsky's closet that could prove a sexual relationship between Monica and the President. Goldberg and Tripp, according to published reports in both Time and Newsweek, discussed stealing the dress and turning it over to investigators. Goldberg admitted having such a discussion with Tripp, calling it a "Nancy Drew fantasy."
In late November, Lewinsky mentioned to Tripp that she intended to have the dress, which she had been saving a souvenir, dry-cleaned for a family event. Tripp, anxious to preserve the dress to nail the President, discouraged her from doing so. "I would tell my own daughter," Tripp told her, that she should save the dress "for your own ultimate protection" should she later be accused of lying about the affair with Clinton. When Lewinsky expressed skepticism that it would ever come to that, Tripp told her that the dress made her look "really fat" and she shouldn't wear it again in public.
In late July, 1998, Lewinsky turned the dress over to Kenneth Starr's investigators after signing an immunity agreement. A blood sample was taken from Clinton on August 3, and on August 17, the FBI reported its conclusion that Clinton was the source of the semen on the dress "to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty."
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Would you want to hire her?
She saves a dress with semen on it as "a souvenir"?
Sorry.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Sorry?!?
Linda Tripp's manipulation of Monica Lewensky in no way excuses Monica's behavior, and I never said nor implied that it did.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)
Yupster
(14,308 posts)Bill Clinton would still be lying about her. It was the only evidence she had.
Also, not so strange to me. Some people keep sheets unwashed so they can smell their lover if he/she goes away. It' a connection.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)appalachiablue
(42,291 posts)she was selling a line of purses, maybe 10 years ago. This complete shut out of jobs is real bad, old world stoning, outcast stuff although these are very regressive times for women. I'm surprised at Erica Yong, what a crank. But M. and her name are so recognizable and employers are sensitive to that. Her mother was in LA, close to Placido Domingo, so no family connections to help with employment? There's a brother. This is troubling, there have to be many other women in similar instances who weren't finished. Hmm.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)evidence of a scandal. Why didn't she have the dress dry cleaned? Her story is very strange. She was not a victim. She was a mature woman.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)flying around with a pedophile.
https://twitter.com/search?q=taedavies
Divernan
(15,480 posts)How out of control is he, to pose for this picture? Are we talking the beginnings of senility? Drunk? What?
I can hear Bill now - Oh, honey, who you gonna believe? Me or your lying eyes?
Hekate
(93,461 posts)Major dirty mind there.
Divernan
(15,480 posts)Here's the definition:
noun
1.
an act or gesture expressing affection, as an embrace or kiss, especially a light stroking or touching.
verb (used with object)
2.
to touch or pat gently to show affection.
3.
to touch, stroke, etc., lightly, as if in affection:
The breeze caressed the trees.
4.
to treat with favor, kindness, etc.
I posted he was caressing the blonde, and then added a description of what was, to Bill, her most attractive, albeit surgically enhanced, feature.
If there is any "major dirty mind" involved, it is Bill's, as anyone can tell by the look on his face.
Hekate
(93,461 posts)Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)The woman's husband was cropped from this photo taken at an event in order to make it look like Clinton was doing something he shouldn't be doing. Congratulations on falling for it and continuing to push it.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Matt_in_STL
(1,446 posts)It was actually the young woman's mother in the photo, so my mistake on that.
http://m.digitaljournal.com/internet/photo-of-bill-clinton-with-blonde-held-in-his-grasp-goes-viral/article/421358
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)my my.
merrily
(45,251 posts)
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)and frankly the sun will burn out before any male has the reverse done to him.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)more from an insider and it is making me sick.
We have to choose between the disgusting person who will NOT go out of their way to starve us to death, and the one who will.
At this point these are our choices.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)NAFTA Bill & Friends,
or More Free Trade Hillary? 
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)Hekate
(93,461 posts)NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)Yupster
(14,308 posts)Supposedly he didn't run for president because of his wife's bad behavior.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)believe that a lot of voters won't.
City Lights
(25,171 posts)TheNutcracker
(2,104 posts)
moondust
(20,294 posts)He was on CNN Smerconish show apparently yesterday or today. Here's the clip about the Gawker flight logs:
http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/01/24/smerconish-dershowitz-01232015.cnn
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)the Clintons. But what I believe or do not believe is not relevant to what other people, especially politically less sophisticated people, less knowledgeable people will believe.
This is a very ugly accusation. It has political feet.
It could divide our party. It is going to be difficult to disprove it in a country in which people believe Fox facts and not true facts.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)has had very little to say. Pres Obama, supported by the Left, didn't thank the Left by making some progressive appointments, he did the opposite. The Conservative Wing, with the Ruling Oligarchs behind them, are very powerful and will be hard to defeat.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Before a question was even fully asked he would start yammering automatic canned denial like a programmed robot.
Talking real fast and being loud and being, well, lawyer like trying to say how he can't wait until he can "question" his accuser LOL..
He is going down and only thing that may save his ass is money....
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)Here's Mike Papantonio talking about the sweet deal Dershowitz negotiated for Epstein who admitted soliciting sex from a minor, a crime most would serve a life sentence for, in exchange for a 13-month sentence in a Palm Beach jail where he was free to come and go during the day and just spent the night there. Sweeeeet!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017240039
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Then confirms flying with a woman some 40 years younger than him, seeing as he claims she was 25 and he is in his seventies. He also says the women did not "appear" underage, as opposed to being underage. His words are a bit technical for someone with nothing to hide.
The students at Harvard are even writing about this in the university paper.
It's one thing to defend OJ quite another to pal around with him like best buds.
The witness testified under oath about him, he may yet see his day giving a deposition, especially after slandering the lawyers.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Even if he is a celebrity, accusing people of bad conduct without absolute proof is very foolish.
I do not believe that Dershowitz is so stupid as to be involve in something this craven. He is a lawyer and knows the consequences. I do believe that someone might want to tarnish his reputation.
I will only believe these stories when there is proof of the violation of the law.
TheNutcracker
(2,104 posts)My guess....they need to keep Epstein safe, or the pictures start slipping out...so watch the media ignore this! Until Hillary is the nominee.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)to disqualify HRC NOW... unless the Dem-Death-Wish prevails.
Hopefully it won't.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)Would you disqualify a male caandidate for the actions of his wife?
Just wondering.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)Dude, we're talking pedophilia here, sex slaves, etc.
Isn't it precisely this kind of stuff that "vetting" a candidate is all about?
To know where are the bodies buried, etc.
So as these sordid trials unfold, the 2016 race is taking shape, a sadly perfect storm IMHO.
Do i think it's "right" for Hillary's candidacy to be sunk by Bill's indiscretions? No.
Do I think if Hillary is the Democratic nominee that this shit will likely explode in the Democratic
party's face to deliver the WH to ReThugs? Absolutely.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)Unsavory rich guy.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)to disagree.
Honestly, my main objection to Hillary is Hilary's Third Way orientation,
and that it's just a continuation of the Bush/Clinton Dynasty, and I
think we can do better.
But this whole thing with Epstein raises my objection to a new level
of concern.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)policies, you have a discussion.
They whole attempt to tar her with her husbands flight on the Jet of a millionaire in 2002, is accusing her of guilt by association.
Guilt by association is what Republicans do. We don't need to sink to their level.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)Ignoring this is risking a Republican President if Hillary still decides to run after this has been made public.
But there always is the possibility Bill's adopted Dad, George Bush Sr., and his connections can make sure this never comes up in the campaign by the media and would snuff out any stray little voices trying to speak about it.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)And you are saying you honestly think ReThugs WON'T 'stoop' to dropping
the Epstein ticking time-bomb on Hillary as some kind of "October Surprise"??
Did I get that right?
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)so please.....
That stinky fart came out of the Clinton camp.
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)sexist.
Let Bill Clinton answer questions about a flight in 2002.
And, yes, I suspect Republicans will happily a sexist attack on her. That is what they do.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)I am opposed to the push to get her disqualified because Bill may or may not have done something. Disqualifying a wife because her husband did something smacks of sexism.
TheNutcracker
(2,104 posts)Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)not have done will result in some people choosing not to support her. Smear tactics do work with some people.
For me, it will be the policies she proposes and her answers to substantive issues of policy that matter.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)more than the 'dressed up' campaign promises, as these rarely
mean a whole lot. See Obama.
Capt.Rocky300
(1,005 posts)Anyone can get a logbook and put whatever they want in the columns. For example, pilots seeking to show they have more flight time than they actually have do it to secure a better flying job. In the trade it's called "Parker P-51 time" in honor of the old pen made by Parker and the North American P-51 Mustang. And yes, it's illegal. I'm not saying it's the case here with the passenger list in Capt. Rodger's logbook but I'd need more definitive proof than the logbook pages shown in this article that anything improper was going on behind the cockpit door. It may have but I'm just saying this doesn't prove anything.
Ilsa
(62,070 posts)would never make it through the media as it creates a huge moneymaking scandal. If Clinton is this close to it, he's mud and a liability for Hilary.
appalachiablue
(42,291 posts)This issue reminded me of Jennifer Flowers, the mess he & we got through early on, then it was Lewinsky, now this. He's a wreck, pursues politics yet can't stop himself and damages Hillary's chances and Gore's. Not just the libido, compulsion & entitlement, he must love the high risk, danger, adrenaline or smthg. He makes John Edwards look like a good guy & stable. Mess. Seems the GOP would let H. win the primary, then release all this to finish her off.
treestar
(82,383 posts)He's the one actually doing it.
Hillary is the one with the spouse doing it.
It'd be like having a scandalous First Lady. There hasn't been one before that I know of. Figures Bill Clinton would be the first.
Maybe unless you count Nancy Reagan and her astrology nonsense.
appalachiablue
(42,291 posts)at a work conference. This isn't Europe, Berlesconi in Italy or France's Holland with mistress or wife. Bill's a global figure, by choice, they've been married 39 years, at least 23 years of which he's messed up that I know of since 1992. It's a drain and a risk. Today it's tiring, to me fidelity is very impt., adultery's real bad.
He's also a former US Pres.& Head of the Dem. Party. Bill will be in the news like always, at her campaign events, maybe the Inauguration. (I went to both Inaugural Balls, jubilees. Have met her twice, him once).
The 12 and 14 year olds on Epstein's party flights and associating with a sex offender is really serious. Think of young women voters, how this makes Hillary look-condoning or enabling his behavior which is really cruel. And family men, conservatives. Hillary's also not viewed too well by some who dislike her long ties to big $, banks and corps. Messy.
I was pretty young, m. when the Jen Flowers TV explainin' happened, awful, I could hardly believe it or vote, except I liked Hill, the Gores, am a life long, 3rd gen D., and had been under the 12 year Occupation of Dutch and Bush 41. His behavior really, really bothered me. Later it was the Lewinsky lie, Paula Jones. Whew.
Nice photo of Joe B. you have. I'm fond of Del., esp. Delmarva, the coastal beach area of Del, Md., Va.
You asked about the Bastille Key. Monticello is also great unless you have seen it, or finished the DC tour that many folks do with young families. There's so much stuff to do and see, never finished.
treestar
(82,383 posts)as he did as bad while he was actually president, or running for President, yet he was re-elected and left office with high approval ratings. So if it did not affect him while he was actually in office, it follows it should not affect Hillary, who isn't even guilty. People recognize Hillary as the victim here and it is no one else's business.
TheNutcracker
(2,104 posts)LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)yes.
wyldwolf
(43,891 posts)appalachiablue
(42,291 posts)I remember he said the affair was 'when she was in remission' - so it was ok, sure. What a mess he made, wow. Like Arnold and Newt.
samsingh
(17,727 posts)
karynnj
(59,797 posts)It was unthinkable that Clinton would continue his friendship with Epstein after he was found guilty. IF, he had stayed away - the first time that comment was made in a reliable media - someone working for Clinton would have put out a clear denial.
Seriously, imagine that it was you (or your husband). Would you correct the record? Add in that you (for sake of this question) have political ambitions and expectations.
Therefore this is likely true - and the only saving grace is that there is absolutely no claim that Clinton had sex with anyone.
Not to mention it is Hillary Clinton running - though it would likely be a net negative if she divorced Bill Clinton - so he will be there.
Major Nikon
(36,874 posts)I also never list passengers and it's not required, so I think it's a bit unusual that anyone would although everyone has their own logging practices.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)someone found out because those men would keep him safe? I see that there opposite has also been suggested. But why else would he write all this evidence in his logs? I don't know what to think.
One thing I do know is that this is the Rs 2016 issue and we are in trouble.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Capt.Rocky300
(1,005 posts)I thought it odd that he listed the names of passengers. Perhaps he did it for bragging rights and/or in retirement to sit on his front porch in the rocker and read back and remember the good ol' days.
Major Nikon
(36,874 posts)I've never flown anyone even remotely famous so not much need to record names. I only fly part 91, so sometimes I don't even log my flights if I don't need it for currency. I do often include details about the trip if it's something I want to remember someday, so I can see someone doing this.
Yupster
(14,308 posts)I asked him if he ever flew anyone famous.
He said he flew the monkey from Pirates of The Caribbean from California to the Caribbean where they were filming.
Capt.Rocky300
(1,005 posts)
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)I have not been asked my name when flying privately. I am introduced to the flight crew and as long as the attendant keeps feeding me beers all is well.
Are names routinely kept? What if I wanted to keep my trip quiet?
Major Nikon
(36,874 posts)Capt.Rocky300
(1,005 posts)I flew many prominent athletes, politicians and Hollywood types. None of their names are in my logbooks. I'm able to recall the good experiences I had with them and do my best to forget the bad ones. And there were only a few of those.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Do I think bc was on these flights? Sadly, it feels like it has the ring of truth.
But it could be bs. Remember, this is Gawker, an utterly unreliable reporter. Could the logs be fake?
Capt.Rocky300
(1,005 posts)#12 and #193. Other than info required by FAA Regs, the comment column in a logbook is up to the individual. I went so far as to check on whether this pilot exists, he does. The aircraft exist. The flight times between departure and arrival points are typical. I may be going out on a limb but I think the log pages are valid. But they don't state, nor can I conceive they would, what went on in the cabin. That could be revealed only by deposition and/or court testimony if the crew witnessed it. Unless the crew sees something during a trip to the lav, the cockpit crew doesn't know what's going on behind the cockpit door. Hope that makes sense, I just finished my second margarita.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)AnnieBW
(11,004 posts)Just when you thought it was safe to go back to DU... The Mighty Clenis makes a return engagement!
Newcomers may ask, "what is this Clenis thing?"
It's Bill Clinton's magical male member. It appears whenever Republicans need it to smear Bubba about his proclivities. Now, to be fair, Bubba has a well-known problem with keeping it to himself. But, the Mighty Clenis has SUPERPOWERS! It's able to leap tall buildings in a single bound!
In other words, the Repukes will definitely use this to smear Hillary and Bill on their quest for a return trip to the White House.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)made this up. Bill can't keep his pants up. He gave them the gun. No one can complain when they shoot him in the face with it. It also doesn't matter that others do the same thing. This idiot imbecile apparently hasn't learned a fucking thing.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Waaaaay irresponsible.
jollyreaper2112
(1,941 posts)The man knew they were gunning for him. So what did he do? Provided a pistol, loaded the chamber, cocked the hammer, put it in their hands and rested the barrel right against his head. Then he's looking up at them with his aw shucks grin and winks.
He made getting some strange a higher priority than the presidency. I hate the Republicans for fighting so dirty and I hate bill for giving them all the ammunition they needed.
appalachiablue
(42,291 posts)He needs to be taken away from politics for good, for our sake now, after as many times he's got off, what he's put us, the Dem. Party, Gore and the people through. Not to mention Hillary, Chelsea, husband & grandchild. He's reckless, irresponsible & as sick or sicker than a junkie or alcoholic. Done.
A recent 'Law and Order' episode was so close to this story, about a powerful jet setter billionaire defense contractor, egoist, pedo & partier with young girls procured by an aged- out 20 something girlfriend. Had room cameras that taped his 'massage' sessions with them at his mansion. Servants covered for him, the girlfriend was charged as an accessory. He didn't help her, had just been using her all along.
Beaverhausen
(24,547 posts)
Gman
(24,780 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
msongs
(69,322 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)Double standard at work again.
Triana
(22,666 posts)even while they proclaim how "moral" and "Gawd-lovin" and "Christian" with "family values" they are.
Dems make no such pretentious claims -- yet being a sociopath or womanizer/philanderer hurts them.
There's definitely a double standard.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)and who got thrown so far under the bus he's still not sure what happened. Governor Appellation Trail just got elected again. There is no coincidence that this is in the news again.
Triana
(22,666 posts)Absolutely not. This is timed very interestingly - right after that recent poll which showed Hillary heads and tails above any potential 2016 Repub nominee. 
jollyreaper2112
(1,941 posts)Neither party should want these scumbags in it. Remember weiner wasn't just carrying on with an adult woman, he was sending dick pics to everyone. It was dumb luck none were underage.
The thing to remember is the Republicans always get away with it. And they are not shamed by having these people in their ranks.
dsc
(52,481 posts)funny I didn't get one, did you?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)Guess you didn't make the cut. Sorry.
Lordquinton
(7,886 posts)it was only caught because he was being cyber stalked by the republicans, which should have been the real story, but we know how that goes.
hunter
(38,703 posts)... becomes useless to their big money patrons.
Part of the problem may be it's too disgusting to imagine a Republican politician having sex.
Who did either Bush "do" in the Oval Office???
It's like imagining Rush Limbaugh naked somewhere in the Dominican Republic...
Just, just... NO!
Octafish
(55,745 posts)City Lights
(25,171 posts)The GOP whips up the hysteria whenever a Democrat is involved in something like this and the corporate sack of shit media follows right along. When a Republican does something similar, they poo-poo it, acting like "everyone does it." They make me sick. Both the GOPee and the corporate sack of shit media.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Democrats take the moral high-ground on most issues, so more is expected of them when it comes to their sex lives. That's just the reality.
fbc
(1,668 posts)I don't think your average voter wants a pedophile as first husband.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)A pedophile is a man or woman who is attracted to or has sexual relations with prepubescent boys or girls.
Calling someone a childfucker demands proof beyond mere association.
Behind the Aegis
(54,671 posts)What are you a Commie?! (
, of course).
What is worse is the implication that someone how Hillary will suffer, while true in some respects, it demonstrates the public's lack of nuance and intelligence.
Of course, pedophile is so often misused as a word, it creates its own set of problems.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)That being said a pedophile is a man or woman who is attracted to prepubuscent boys and girls. A prepubescent boy or girl hasn't developed secondary sex characteristics. This is tenth grade biology. Accusing someone of such a heinous crime demands proof.
Behind the Aegis
(54,671 posts)I know what the meaning of the word means which is why I was commenting. That, and this bullshit "guilt by association" being leveled against Ms. Clinton. It is one of those words which is routinely misused, usually to make something seem even worse.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)And we have confirmation bias in this instance. For the people who like or hate the Clintons this doesn't move the needle at all...
IMHO, there is nothing lower than a pedophile (childfucker) except for the person who knowingly and with malice aforethought falsely accuses somebody of it.
Bearing false witness is a biggy, specially on a crime as heinous as this. That's why it made the top ten.
Behind the Aegis
(54,671 posts)It isn't just the Clintons who are in the crosshairs. Some are taking too much "glee" with this story and the stories swirling around it. Personally, I find that almost as disgusting as what has happened. It is a jaded use of a vicious, soul-crushing crime.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)"It is what it is" but you and I can take solace in the fact these attempts will fail as they always have.
Behind the Aegis
(54,671 posts)Justice needs to be served, but those who aren't responsible shouldn't be tarred and feathered, no matter the political reasons. I can't say I am surprised by this story happening now.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)It really is Godfather like stuff, sans the killing usually.
This doesn't move the needle a bit.
I met Arnold Schwarzenegger. It doesn't mean I'm a six time Mr. Universe.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)that he had any idea that the owner of the plane was a pedophile plus I don't think Clinton or Dershowitz had anything to do with pedophilia. The crime is too obvious.), it is a political reality that dealing with all these rumors is going to be a distraction during a presidential campaign.
It isn't fair, but that is how it is. How do you suggest that the Clinton campaign deal with these rumors and this innuendo?
You can't blame the messenger even if the message is false. Because of the Lewinsky scandal, because it turned out to have a lot of truth about it, it makes it look like the Clintons lead wild lives, revel in wild parties and then lie about it. A total falsehood, but what is the political strategy to deal with these kinds of falsehoods that fit for many people into the overall picture?
I think Hillary should not run, but if she does, what kind of tactic can deal with this sort of mud-slinging?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)The Republican negative campaign machine will take this story (which does not yet at any rate prove any pedophilia on the part of Clinton as you point out) and every American who doesn't read critically will be quite convinced that Hillary was somehow an accessory.
I have had a feeling for a long time that something could, would mess up a Hillary campaign. This could be part of it.
The Republicans have been planning on defeating a Hillary candidacy for a long time in my opinion. That is one of the reason I don't want to see her run.
They are now starting to attack Elizabeth Warren. That suggests to me that they are beginning to believe that Hillary will not run.
This story could be part of the reason that the Republicans are starting to attack Warren.
Facts mean nothing to Republicans.
We still have to give Bill Clinton the benefit of the doubt. But we have given him the benefit of the doubt before and learned that the rumors about him were true.
Same for John Edwards. He had the strongest platform in 2008 and would have made a great president. But the rumors about his sex life were true and his candidacy was ended.
The Clintons run with a rich crowd some of whom are bound to be spoiled brats with no respect for others.
Sad and maybe this will go away. But I've seen this stuff before. If it is going to throw doubt on the Clintons' being able to represent our country with dignity, then I'm glad it is coming out now before Hillary has thrown her hat in the ring.
Fpr 2016, Democrats need a candidate whose sex life and whose spouse' sex life are above reproach.
There are too many important issues about social and economic justice that need attention. We do not need to have to deal with accusations of exploitation of sex workers or children in the campaign.
Bernie Sanders is probably above reproach in these areas. He has been in the political spotlight in a small state for many years.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)Oh wait, Bill Clinton left office with an approval rating of seventy three percent:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/116584/presidential-approval-ratings-bill-clinton.aspx
and has a favorability rating of 64% currently
http://www.gallup.com/poll/171794/clinton-elder-bush-positively-rated-living-presidents.aspx
Oh, pardon my French but fuck the Republicans. We know there is no perfidy they will not rise or fall to. DemocratSinceBirth fears no one except his maker, much less the Republicans, and you shouldn't either.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)What has Clinton running around with a pedo got to do with the Republicans? Yes, they will use this against Hillary and him, but it is Bill's damn fault for being such a gigantic millstone around Hillary's run for President. Are you suggesting that Republicans made up this whole story - that there is no truth to it at all or are you suggesting that this should be hidden and swept under the rug and not talked about because, yaknow it might tarnish the inevitable one?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)That's why Bill Clinton left office with an approval rating of 73 percent and still has a favorability rating of 64%..I will furnish the citations if you so desire.
But please don't let DemocratSinceBirth prevent you from flogging this story. It will have all the efficacy of flatulating in the wind.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)is all that matters. yup.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)Joe McCarthy smeared people by suggesting they were communists because they unknowingly associated with one just like you are smearing people by suggesting they are pedohiles because they unkowingly associated with one.
I await your response, I'm just getting warmed up:
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)omg 
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)They are "exactly the same." Accusing somebody of being a communist without evidence in the 1950s and ruining their lives and getting them blacklisted is not different than accusing somebody of being a pedophile without evidence and ruining their life now or at any time.
KISSES
DemocratSinceBirth
P.S. Keep reading my posts. There is hope for you. No man or woman can't be educated.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)as having suspicions about a man that is a proven liar and a cheater and that likes to be known as some hot rod sex pistol. This man was/is friends with a proven pedo and has been in his company many, many times at the place the rape of underage girls was happening. Sorry, that makes some antennaes twitch a bit. We are talking about rape of children, but you can talk about McCarthy all you want and make some kind of connections to me being Exactly like him.
How ridiculous, but thanks for the hilarity. It's great to watch these little developments - I can't wait for your next installment. I am having a wiff of Hitler now. That card might be waiting in the deck as well.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)Are they pedophiles too?
*she of Barack Obama's Security Council.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)you must be one who believes in that Multi Universe theory.
I dunno, did Spacey and others fly around in a pedo's fancy jet to the scene of the crimes?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)I get it. You only smear the people you don't like. You're a real prince or princess...
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)gives him an edge?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)Is Bill Clinton?
I digress. I digress...
If you unwittingly associate with a pedophile you are only a pedophile if you run for office. Amirite?
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)He likes twinks.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)1. As you suggest, this scandal proves to be about nothing. In that case, diehard Republicans will use it as a reason to hate Hillary anyway. But nothing can be done about that because they will find any reason to hate her. The suspicion of scandal will continue to haunt the subconscious minds of millions of Americans -- a suspicion that can be easily exploited by some outright lie or horrid innuendo in the final days prior to the 2016 election . . . . with the outcome being closer if not quite damaging for the country.
2. Doubts remain into the 2016 election as to whether Clinton knew about the pedophilia ring or was (and I have difficulty believing this) involved in some way however remote -- like unknowingly traveling on a plane with one of the victims. The election conversation would be hijacked by the scandal. Did he or did he not? Clinton's denials will not be believed because after all many view his denials of the Lewinsky matter as proof that he lies about his personal life. But the election, the campaign is hijacked. One way or the other, it is hijacked.
Under No. 2, I need to add that one of Hillary's strong points is her stance on women's and children's rights. The suspicion of a tie to a pedophile much less a pedophile ring would hurt her credibility on this subject.
3. Further, this rumor could place in question the honesty of the Clintons about their marriage. And that could raise all kinds of ugly nonsense about Hillary. Remember how long the lies about Obama's birthplace captured headlines around the country? A person cannot help where they are born, but they can choose the friends they hang out with. And I question this: if it is true that this wealthy friend of Bill Clinton (or at least wealthy plane=ride-giver of Bill Clinton) was so obsessed by sex as to run a ring of very young prostitutes, then what was the tone of the conversation, the nature of the jokes when Clinton was riding in the plane? Were there witnesses? This matter is going to court. I hate to think of the potential embarrassment.
Personally, I wish we as a nation were less obsessed with sex scandals. I wish that a pure sex life were not a requirement for the presidency or a member of Congress because it does not tell the story about the candidate's desire for justice or hankering for equality although it may reflect on their lust for honesty, but Americans, especially Democrats, are idealistic and want honest, clean candidates. Last time we had one was Jimmy Carter and even he admitted to lust in his heart if I remember correctly.
I think this story could make it really hard for Hillary Clinton to maintain her dignity and maybe her credibility through a long campaign. It could be really tough on her.
Then again it may prove to be just so much rubbish. But - - - Hillary supporters need to think carefully about its repercussions for any campaign she might run. And even about the toll on her person and on her health. This is one ugly story even if Bill had nothing to do with these young girls.
When you pander to the rich to get them to support you and your campaigns, you run into some really bad people.. Not all fortunes are made through crime, but some are. Money is not a very good test of character.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)and is America's most popular living former president.
As I said, ad infinitum and ad nauseum, these sex scandals go nowhere.
rjsquirrel
(4,762 posts)Most Americans have no idea who Jeffrey Epstein even is.
That might be about to change.
I've had enough Clintonism for other reasons.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)Raping children is not about sex. This is what the story is, the underage girls that were involved, not old men looking for adult sex. I know you didn't mean it this way, but it stands out like a real bad sore thumb...
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)karynnj
(59,797 posts)I think you missed that President Obama is pretty scandal free. If you are speaking just of his marriage - it is hard to get a more picture perfect family than the Obamas.
Not to mention, John Kerry was honest and as clean as it gets in DC. Al Gore's family was an asset and at the point that he ran his marriage was seen as strong. There was no scandal about Dukakis - Kitty dealt with depression, but that was not a sign that her husband was not clean and honest. George McCovern was accused of many things by Republicans but not dishonesty of any dirty politics or actions. I honestly know almost nothing of Mondale.
So, really it is Clinton who is the aberration -- not Carter. By and large, the nominees chosen by the Democrats have been honest, clean and decent men. (John Edwards never was near to being the nominee - he won only one contested primary - South Carolina - in two years of running for President. Although there were early hints in late 2007 that he had been unfaithful, the media pretty much helped him blow the accusations off. )
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)interests. You are correct. The topic came up in Carter's campaign, maybe because he was very open about his devout Christianity.
I'm a big fan of Kerry, McGovern and Mondale. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression about my opinions about them.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)Patting me on the head like you were the superior and me the small ignorant one that shouldn't question your greater intelligence so you distract my questions by throwing me a cookie/bone?
I know the types who rely on this sort of thing when they lose an argument. Try again, a bit more subtle tho.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)joining some do-gooder 'communist front' organization?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)I sat next to the owner of Ringling Brothers when I got bumped from coach to first class on a NY to MIA flight. That didn't make me a trapeze artist.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)point.
they've been married for 39 years, and were close political partners for a lot of those years. And Hilary certainly knows that Bill has a (to put it kindly) wandering eye. She's no naïve young thing.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)C'mon , you can hate somebody's guts but to call someone a ped or a ped enabler requires a level of hate I can't begin to fathom.
There are people who physically harmed me and I wouldn't call them that. it's actually worse, imho, than calling somebody a killer because I can think of instances where killing if not justified is understandable.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)This isn't really funny any more...
I can't think of anything worse than calling somebody a kiddyfucker or saying a person enables kiddyfuckers but if you feel comfortable trafficking in such there is nothing a random internet poster can do to stop you.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)People knew who Epstein was because he was a very rich Democratic donor; and one who'd been convicted of soliciting an underage girl for prostitution in 2008.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)The issue is not whether Clinton was involved in any illicit activities. I don't think he was. The question is whether this kind of issue could hijack Hillary's campaign if she runs. I think it could. Not early on. But much, much later. Sort of an October Surprise kind of thing.
The risk should be considered seriously.
For me this is just one more issue that makes Hillary's candidacy a risky matter. She is way ahead now. But it is precisely this sort of controversy, no matter how ill-founded, that can defeat a candidate. I remember the problems with McGovern's running mate, Eagleton. That was not nearly as controversial as a mere rumor no matter how false of this sort could be.
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,976 posts)Chocolate chip or oatmeaL?
LawDeeDah
(1,596 posts)