Funny how the party that doesn't think the Greek people should endure ......

[marmar]

* 25 percent unemployment (60 percent for young Greeks)
* 30 percent reduction in wages
* Hundreds of thousands of lost public sector jobs
* 300,000 households (in a country of about 11 million) have no electricity

...... is constantly referred to as "radical", whereas the cabal that imposed these conditions on them is not.

How far down the neoliberal rabbit hole have we fallen?

[socialist_n_TN]

1. You know I very rarely rec posts......

I just like the discussion, but I did recommend this one. How far indeed marmar.

[Ghost Dog]

38. Greetings from Spain.

Podemos.

[socialist_n_TN]

44. To borrow a phrase, yes "We Can".......

HOWEVER we can't if we accept capitalism.

IMO, the biggest problem with Syriza AND with Podemos is that they aren't explicitly anti-capitalist. Yes, I know there are significant anti-capitalist elements involved in these coalitions, but those elements haven't been brought to the fore in this struggle. These are bourgeois workers and social movements that connect a LOT of the dots as to why we're in our current plight, but shy away from the ultimate solution, the destruction of capitalism and the institution of a workers' government and an economy built on the people's needs rather than the profit of the owners. IOW, these are still "reform" movements. They are trying to reform capitalism when the system when the laws of the system doesn't allow reform over the long haul.

[Fred Sanders]

2. They are radical...... so what does that make the third most popular party, the Golden Yawn...?

[el_bryanto]

3. I want to learn more about the Greek situation

Micheal Lewis covered a bit of it in his book Boomerang but i'm not sure how accurate it was, in that it painted the Greek government as being fundamentally flawed (i.e. very corrupt) - but I don't know how accurate that is.

Bryant

[JDPriestly]

8. The Greek upper class is very corrupt. Worse even than ours.

[SheilaT]

14. I believe it was that book that said

one fundamental problem in Greece is that so very few people paid taxes. Especially their upper income earners. Somewhat like here, only a whole lot worse.

[newfie11]

4. This could be coming to America too

If congress gets their way. They vote the way the money tells them. The oligarchs control much of congress.

[marmar]

5. No doubt.

[newthinking]

9. After watching this happening for so many years

I don't expect this country to turn around until it gets much much worse.

[Wellstone ruled]

6. This is what the true Supply Side

Reagennomics end results are. We are so damn lucky the Democrats claimed the levers of power from time to time. So much for the Chicago School of Economics,did we learn anything yet as a nation?

[Enthusiast]

17. The results of Supply Side are another of those inconvenient truths.

[octoberlib]

7. Podemos leader Pablo Iglesias on Syriza and the struggle for a better Europe.

Patriotism is not threatening someone, or believing you are better because you have another skin color, or because you speak a language, or because you were born where your mother’s water broke.

The true patriots know that to be proud of your country is to see that all the children — no matter where they come from — go to schools clean, clothed, well-fed, and with shoes on their feet. To love your country is to defend that your grandparents have a pension and that if they get sick that they are attended to in the best public hospitals.





Our aim today, unfortunately, is not the withering away of the state, or the disappearance of prisons, or that Earth become a paradise. But we do aim, as I said, to make it so that all children go to public schools clean and well-fed; that all the elderly receive a pension and be taken care of in the best hospitals; that any young person — independently of who their parents are — be able to go to college; that nobody have their heat turned off in the winter because they can’t pay their bill; that no bank be allowed to leave a family in the street without alternative housing; that everyone be able to work in decent conditions without having to accept shameful wages or conditions; that the production of information in newspapers and on television not be a privilege of multi-millionaires; that a country not have to kneel down before foreign speculators.

In one word: that a society be able to provide the basic material conditions that make happiness and dignity possible.

These modest objectives that today seem so radical simply represent democracy. Tomorrow is ours, brothers and sisters!

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/01/pablo-iglesias-speech-syriza/

[LuvNewcastle]

11. A lot of the people who call themselves patriots in the U.S.

don't give a shit about the condition of the people, nor do they care about the environment here. I don't know what those people are, but anyone who calls himself a patriot but doesn't care about the citizens or even the land in his country is anything but a patriot. They might as well be enemies.

[BrotherIvan]

15. That needs to be posted everywhere

It is these basic necessities that need to be the line in the sand. And they need to be fought for, because the oligarchs don't want people to have even basic health, dignity, and education. And we need politicians who won't sell those values out.

[Enthusiast]

18. The oligarchs seem to enjoy the suffering of others.

[BrotherIvan]

20. It makes one feel just that much richer

Perish the thought that they should have one penny less!

[Ghost Dog]

43. Thanks for the link, octoberlib.

[MFrohike]

10. In fairness

Syriza is an acronym that means Coalition of the Radical Left. Don't get me wrong, they'd call them radical regardless. There just happens to be a happy accident here that makes it an accurate statement, if only by chance.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

12. The kid who said, "The emperor has no clothes." was considered "radical" too.

[mountain grammy]

13. My heart is with the Greek people..

it's a beautiful country and a beautiful people.

[KingCharlemagne]

42. An argument can also be made that Greek resistance so threatened Mussolini's invasion in 1941 that

Hitler had to divert crucial men and materiel to Greece, thereby delaying the start of his assault on the USSR by five weeks and forcing his Army to fight to non-victory in the Russian winter as a result. Near the end of the war, Hitler blamed Mussolini's failed invasion of Greece for his defeat by the USSR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Greece

[yurbud]

16. I think the neoliberals are deep in their own rabbit holes and don't realize we aren't following

they are in for a rude awakening.

[trumad]

19. Krugman touches on that very subject.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/26/opinion/paul-krugman-ending-greeces-nightmare.html?_r=0

[Blue_Tires]

21. Well, the 'radical' part is more about the debt forgiveness and possible exit from the Eurozone...

A lot of debtholders are shitting bricks about now...

[FairWinds]

22. totally support what Syriza is trying to do . .

but they will need to address military spending.

Because of their long standing face-off with Turkey
their military spending is . . "Greece is the largest importer
of conventional weapon in Europe and its military spending
is the highest in the European Union (relative to G.D.P)." (Wiki)

Veteran For Peace

[Spitfire of ATJ]

24. Pretty damn stupid considering Greece and Turkey are allied through NATO.

[aquart]

25. Uh...Turkey.

Not a nation that thinks twice of corpsing up the neighborhood.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

26. Who do they think they are? Us?

[ND-Dem]

37. Their military spending is 2.5% of GDP, as opposed to say, France's 2.2% of GDP or

Portugal's 2.1% of GDP
or the UK's 2.2% of GDP
or Cyprus's 2.1%

Not to mention non-EU but nevertheless "European" countries like"

Turkey's 2.3% of GDP
Ukraine's 2.9% of GDP
Georgia (2.7% of GDP)
Armenia (4.1%)
Azerbaijan (4.7%)....


Yeah, that extra .3 of GDP throws Greece over the line....

[Ghost Dog]

40. Well observed.

[Phlem]

23. Spot on.

K&R!

[IronLionZion]

27. Progressives want to change things

conservatives like to keep the status quo. That's why progressives tend to be considered "radical", and there's nothing negative about the word "radical".

[MrMickeysMom]

34. Who owns the media that calls them "radical"? … the same ones who own politicians

and the judges, and steal from everybody legally.

The change the laws to make stealing legal.

[TrollBuster9090]

28. Why do they call the Greek situation "radical?" Because...

Because if they called this a common sense, mainstream economic solution, then they would be forced to refer to the ICELAND solution as the "radical" solution. And for the moment, they're still going for the total news blackout on what Iceland is doing.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-28/iceland-defies-creditor-backlash-with-debt-relief-nordic-credit.html

[Dont call me Shirley]

29. GoldmanSnachs needs to be prosecuted as a war criminal.

[hifiguy]

30. Goldman and its ilk should all be smashed to atoms,

the top execs publicly guillotined in front of their buildings, their families sold into slavery in Dubai and every last penny that can be found should be seized and distributed to their victims.

[Dont call me Shirley]

31. Mutiny!

Is what they fear most!

[hifiguy]

33. Arrrgh!

[Dont call me Shirley]

35. ...

[ND-Dem]

32. K&R

[MrMickeysMom]

36. How far down have they fallen?

This is international… They is everywhere, mar mar.

This is an excellent thread.

[KingCharlemagne]

39. Anyone who follows Greek politics even marginally knows that Syriza is not

a 'radical' party -- witness its newly-formed coalition with the bourgeois 'Independent Greek' party -- whereas the Greek Communist Party (aka "KKE&quot is. The KKE refused to consider entering a coalition with Syriza for reasons it best knows itself, thereby passing up a historic opportunity to rule in a coalition on the European mainland.

[Ghost Dog]

41. Indeed.

[socialist_n_TN]

45. The KKE is a centrist Marxist party and Stalinist....

Which means they will vacillate wildly between the left and the right depending on timing. Right now and for the last few years they've been in a left turn, but that could change tomorrow. Ergo they're not consistent and principled in their positions.

And because they're Stalinist, they won't do coalitions unless they're the primary partner in the coalition. That's part of the bureaucratic thinking of the Stalinists. Since they're top-down, any coalition where they're not in the primary role would be a coalition that would call into doubt their ascendency and indeed their very legitimacy. They have to lead or it becomes an existential crisis for them.

[KingCharlemagne]

46. I know that Syriza has a faction called 'Communist Tendency' that has called for

KKE and Syriza to form a ruling coalition. that appeal has thus far fallen on deaf ears, AFAIK.

As for KKE being 'Stalinist,' what does that mean in the Greek context? Not saying you're wrong necessarily, just that 'Stalinist' is used too often as a pejorative and not as a purely descriptive label.

BTW, I'm relying for my understanding and analysis of Greek internal left-wing politics on this article:

http://www.marxist.com/against-a-coalition-of-syriza-and-independent-greeks-decleration-by-the-communis-tendency-of-syriza-26-january-2015.htm

[socialist_n_TN]

48. The Comunist Tendency in Syriza I believe is........

part of the International Marxist Tendency which is a Trotskyist organization. And "Stalinist" in this context strictly describes the method of party organization which is bureaucratic and issues orders from the top-down. It takes the concept of democratic-centralism and forgets the "democratic" part of it.

And I don't doubt that the IMT would call for a coalition with the KKE and/or PASOK. Those are supposedly working class based organizations as is Syriza. Which means that they would call for this type of coalition because the workers of Greece still have illusions about the effectiveness of parliamentary measures in arresting the assault of the owners on the working class. By calling for this type of coalition and having it fail, which it inevitably will since it seeks an accommodation WITH capitalism rather than it's replacement, then workers will be disabused of their illusions in parliamentarianism and be won to the cause of a workers' revolution and a workers' government.

Edited to add: I actually don't have any problem with Syriza forming a coalition with either of these working class based parties, but, as I said in my first post on this subject, the Stalinists in the KKE won't do it because they would not be the primary partner in the coalition. I'm not sure that PASOK was even offered the opportunity to be part of the coalition. My GUESS as to why that is is because Syriza is fearful of being associated too closely with an organization (PASOK) that is seen by most Greeks as bankrupt of ideas AND complicit in the austerity that Syriza campaigned against. Of course, I believe that their current coalition partners are worse than even PASOK would be. I can only GUESS (once again that they formed this coalition strictly to protect their right flank in negotiations with the Trioka over the debt repayment and accompanying austerity requirements.

I personally think they should have tried for a minority government alone. If they had done this, then their opponents would have had to have convinced EVERY OPPOSITION MP to vote against it and call for new elections. I don't think they could have convinced every opposition MP to vote against the minority government.

[KingCharlemagne]

49. This is really astute analysis and I must defer to your superior understanding

of the various Marxist factions in Greece. I don't know by what right the KKE think she should be the primary partner in any coalition with Syriza, since KKE's showing (while improved somewhat over the last round of elections) is nowhere near that of Syriza's. I think your guess as to why Syriza formed a coalition with Independent Greeks is as good as any; I have yet to hear or read any convincing explanation from Syriza's people why it formed that coalition.

I do not know enough about the Greek parliamentary system to know whether Syriza could have formed a 'minority government' but, again, your opinion on this matches my own; while Syriza did not win an outright majority, it won a convincing plurality and the burden should be on opposition MPs to demonstrate a united front in opposition, something which seems highly unlikely.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your thoughts in such fine detail. A real pleasure.

[socialist_n_TN]

50. Right back atcha........

Discussions like this are how you are more likely to come to correct conclusions in the analysis of any particular situation in politics. Couple current analysis with historical analyses of similar situations and you know what to look for in the future, both positive and negative.

[Ghost Dog]

52. Centralised top-down bolshevik-style single-party-led communism

just will not fly in Spain, in W. Europe generally. Spanish culture appears to be quite naturally anarcho-sindicalist and rule-breaking, on 'left' and 'right'. 'Capitalism' on an individual and small-business scale has always been a part of the human condition, it seems, and just feels 'natural' (even or perhaps especially when it has to resort to 'black markets'), as does a fairly high degree of 'individual freedom'. And we just, from experience, cannot trust the motives of those who would be willing to assume so much centralised power, from the 'left' or from the 'right'.

The problem with Capitalism, it seems, is a matter of scale, when certain elements grow to be so overwhelmingly powerful and so deeply corrupt and corrupting..

I'm one who so far emphasises the 'reform' part of the possible agenda... Where we call for a serious 'audit' of national debts, for example, we intend to identify the corrupt and the amounts of money they claim is 'public' debt but which in fact, on investigation, will turn out to involve fraudulent activity with amounts of money ending up in the pockets of the corrupt in positions of power and their cronies... such hypothetical balance-sheet entries will be frozen while the associated cases pass through the judicial system, probably very slowly. Where it turns out that only a few corrupt individuals are responsible for that part of the debt they, and not the public, will be accountable, and should be obliged to pay back what was stolen...

[socialist_n_TN]

54. Not much time this morning, but.....

A decentralized opposition, no matter how "radical", will not control capitalism. Unless there is an existential threat to the entire system of capitalism IT WILL NOT CHANGE. Then the question becomes, "If there's enough of a threat to the system to force reforms, why stop there?" Reform of capitalism over an historical time frame is an oxymoron. It always has and always will throw off reforms eventually. Then the question becomes, "Do you want your children/grandchildren to have to fight the same battles a few decades in the future?"

And the only proven method to overthrowing capitalism in existence IS the Bolshevik party and it's democratic-centralism. The trick with democratic-centralism is to not tilt to much to one tenet or the other. Too much "democracy" and nothing gets done because of a lack of discipline. Too much centralism and you have the bureaucratic systemic nightmare that became Stalinism.

[xchrom]

47. du rec.

[Zorra]

51. I can't help but think that most if them grew up duing the Reagan era, and

got totally brainwashed and imprinted by the all pervasive conservatism of that era.

[hedgehog]

53. To which I say -