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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCompulsory vaccinations: Where do we draw the line?
Should ALL available vaccines be compulsory? What about chicken pox? Should kids have to have a flu shot every year? Gardisil? Smallpox?
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HappyMe
(20,277 posts)All the rest mandatory.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)I'm not as familiar with that vaccine, because it wasn't available when my kids were young. They both had chicken pox, were sick and scratchy for a week or so, then recovered.
They actually got it from me, because I had a post-cancer treatment outbreak of shingles.
The only kids whose moms allowed them to play with mine while they were contagious was the anti-vax mom who wanted her kids to get chicken pox and get it over with.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)It can result in a fatal encephalitis. Most kids just have a minor case, but not all. What about the kids who would die?
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)I had never heard of fatal complications. (Of course, there was no internet in those days, which tends to magnify relatively rare events, but that's another matter.)
I know I monitored my kids' temps, and watched their rashes for signs of infection. They also saw their pediatrician and were under his care during their illnesses. Is that enough to prevent, or minimize the risk of complications. (I'm just asking, because I really don't know.)
The most serious complication I heard of from chicken pox was when my niece developed an absess. Scary--she was hospitalized, but recovered just fine.
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)The cool thing about being alive today is that we can investigate things so easily. The vast majority of children have no serious complications from chicken pox. When they're older, though, and shingles occurs, it can be debilitating and dangerous. But there are serious complications in children from chicken pox. Your kids were lucky. I was lucky when I was a kid. My wife, too, but she had a nasty case of shingles that got way to close to her eye.
Imagine if that disease were eliminated completely. It can happen.
melm00se
(5,161 posts)who caught chickenpox at 25. he was out of work for almost 2 months and he had no serious complications.
Ms. Toad
(38,639 posts)And shingles is a disease which manifests itself - typically - in the 60s, there is not enough data to determine whether the shingles vaccine might also result in shingles development later in life. The first children vaccinated - assuming vaccination in their teens - are now in their 30s.
At least some forms of the vaccine use live attenuated virus, deliberately introducing the varicella-zoster virus into the body. Shingles comes from reactivation of the virus which has been dormant in the body for years, and there have been some incidents already (even though those vaccinated as children are not yet in their 60s) of later development of shingles
Chicken pox is not like the other childhood illnesses, in that it often manifests itself later as shingles. Intuitively, that makes vaccination more complex. That intuition was borne out fairly quickly in the manifestation of shingles in relatively young children whose immunize systems are compromised (as my daughter's is). But beyond the early complications we are not going to know for decades, still, whether receiving the chicken pox vaccine lowers - or perhaps increases - the rate of shingles in the elderly.
I am not in favor of mandatory chicken pox vaccinations - despite the fact that my spouse has had shingles at least 3 times. We also wrestled with that one for our daughter. Ultimately she acquired a very mild case of the chicken pox before we had decided whether to vaccinate her or not.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)She was a preteen and he said she was getting "old" to not have gotten it. When she did catch it, doctor also said to let little sister sleep with her so she would catch it.
My kids were born in 1979 and 1984 so this was not decades ago when I was a child. Guess medicine has changed a lot from even when Gen X and Millennials were kids.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)The thing about getting the childhood diseases is that you then have total, lifelong immunity, and in later life, like when you are pregnant, you don't have to wonder if that 95% effective MMR vaccine includes you.
Ironically, the only exception I can think of is chicken pox, because a reactivation of the virus can cause shingles, which can be very serious for a very long time.
I got "German measles" in the spring of 1963. I was seven. My mom, sister, aunt, uncle, and I had gone to see my grandma for Mother's Day. My dad stayed home because he had to work. We had traveled from central Wisconsin to South Dakota.
I remember that when we got there I didn't feel great. I laid down on my grandma's bed to take a nap, and when I woke up, I was covered with spots. I don't think I was too sick, because I can remember being up and playing with my sister. I had to wear sunglasses inside the entire time, which I hated. Just after we had left from home, my friend's parents had called my dad to tell them that their daughter had measles, so he knew I had been exposed and thought he was going to have to go out to South Dakota to pick us up, but that didn't happen. I do remember that on the way home I puked all over the back seat of my uncle's brand new car, but that's the only time I remember getting physically sick.
I am also very certain that I didn't see a doc at all.
thecrow
(5,525 posts)when I had the measles. It was a weird day, with all of us playing in the same room. I was in bed and the neighbors and friends brought their children over to expose them. This was in the 60's.
Jamastiene
(38,206 posts)That was horrible.
uppityperson
(116,020 posts)My pediatrician was surprised by my coming down with mumps the end time, said that does happen.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)at her age, not you though. I had German Measles before I was 2 years old. Again, as I have said, I grew up in Manhattan. It was almost unavoidable to NOT catch these diseases being around million of people (not just SCHOOL), including a lot of foreign tourists. While the USA probably wanted their to have smallpo
later polio) vax before coming into the country, I doubt any visa required all those measles vaccinations back then.
No, I doubt as a baby when I had all those diseases my parents were rushing me to the hospital, which in Manhattan, was in walking distance to where we lived.
How the world and attitude has changed? We now have people rushing to ER if they think they have the FLU!
pstokely
(10,891 posts)?
thecrow
(5,525 posts)so we bathed them not only in oatmeal water, but very cold water. It was awful.
This was in the 80's, and I don't know if they had chicken pox vaccinations at that time.
They caught it from a friend who came with us to an amusement park. I noticed that on the way home, he had a temperature. My kids were in the back seat with him for about a 90 minute drive home.. That's all it took.
WillowTree
(5,350 posts)Over 50 pediatric deaths have been reported so far this year.
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)Deaths from the flu are generally in the 5 figures each year. Some years, as many people as soldiers who died in the Vietnam war die from the flu. The flu vaccine reduces that death toll. I get mine every year in September. I'm old, but not ready to die from some viral disease.
Historic NY
(40,037 posts)I had it as a kid and spent months in the hospital. A long period in isolation, because they were sure if it was bacterial meningitis.
Trillo
(9,154 posts)It is also about the kids that would die from the vaccines. Dying from a vaccine is the most extreme of adverse reactions, other reactions also occur, and they range from severe to mild.
Pretty sure it was GWBush and congress who gave the vaccine manufacturers immunity from civil lawsuits. If vaccines did not cause severe adverse reactions in some people there would be no reason to do that. I really doubt anyone is gonna sue over minor irritation at the injection site which clears up in a few days.
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)year from vaccines and compare that to the number who die from the diseases the vaccines protect against? That would be really good information to post in this thread, don't you think?
Trillo
(9,154 posts)For example,
From the first human vaccines developed two centuries ago, smallpox and rabies vaccines, death has always been a complication of vaccination.1 2 In 1933, the whole cell pertussis vaccine’s ability to kill without warning was first reported in the medical literature when two infants died within minutes of a pertussis shot.3 In 1946, American doctors detailed the sudden deaths of twins within 24 hours of their second diphtheria-pertussis shot.4 In 1986, the U.S. Congress passed the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act and has awarded over $2 billion dollars in compensation for deaths and injuries caused by vaccines.5
The allegation is that death certificates use coded language, such as "Sudden Infant Death Syndrome," rather than listing the cause of death as, "Vaccination."
So, yes, numbers of deaths is very important, as the lives saved versus the lives harmed must be considered. When physicians and corporations lie either through ignorance or intentional deception or even lawsuit-defensive medicine, the statistics get skewed.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts).
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)HPV causes life threatening diseases. The vaccines are very low risk. Why would you be opposed to this?
The flu vaccines should also be required for just about everyone. Many companies know this and gladly offer free flu shots to their employees - reduced infection and downtime in the workplace more than pays for the cost.
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)But I'm not in favor of mandating it.
I'm all in favor of mandated vaccinations against infectious diseases that one can transmit through casual contact, and HPV doesn't fall into that category.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Fuck that. The point is to eradicate the reservoir in the population and you do that through universal vaccination programs. See smallpox and polio.
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)Because you obviously didn't qualify to receive it.
It has nothing to do with sex being icky, since I don't think it is. But easily communicable diseases are just that - easily communicable. As such, vaccination should not be optional. But when it comes to diseases that aren't easily communicable, individuals or parents should have the option to decline those vaccinations.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Just not through casual contact. Are you willing to take the risk that your children are never going to engage in premarital sex with someone who wasn't vaccinated for HPV? Or to marry someone who had premarital sex and got HPV? Cervical cancer is not a pleasant thing at all. (And the form of HPV that causes cervical cancer is asymptomatic in males, which is why vaccination is a good idea.)
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)I've already said that both of my daughters received the HPV vaccine, so I'm not sure why you're asking whether or not I would risk anything.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether or not the HPV vaccine should be mandatory - I don't think it should, as it isn't spread through casual contact and doesn't cause high numbers of deaths like measles and smallpox did at one time.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)That alone is worth it. It's not only about sexual contact.
http://www.cdc.gov/hpv/cancer.html
SickOfTheOnePct
(8,710 posts)But it isn't spread by casual contact, i.e., you're not going to spread HPV to a plane full of people just by being there.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)I was asked which should be optional - those were the only 2 I thought maybe could be optional. As far as I am concerned every kid should have Gardisil before they turn 14. Flu shots are readily available, but there are still some that won't get them. It's going to take a lot of work to convince people that won't vaccinate their kids for eradicated diseases, let alone the flu. I wonder how many of those people use scare tactics on their elderly parents to turn them against flu shots.
hack89
(39,181 posts)the diseases that we depend on herd immunity to curtail their spread and were, in the case of measles, nearly eradicated until the anti-vax movement came along.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)people die of the flu than die of measles.
I really don't have an agenda here. My kids were vaccinated, and my grandchild-to-be will be also. If I have a dog in this fight, it's that I hope my pregnant d-i-l's vaccines provided effective immunity in the event she is exposed to measles now.
I just really don't know where to draw the line over what we are going to deem mandatory, especially those who advocate taking children from parents, and never allowing them contact ever again.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)hack89
(39,181 posts)prior to vaccinations measles was a killer in America. It is still a killer in parts of the world:
The rest of the world hasn't been so fortunate. Last year roughly 250,000 people came down with measles; more than half of them died.
"The measles virus is probably the most contagious infectious disease known to mankind," says Stephen Cochi, a senior adviser with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's global immunization division.
"The children under 5 are very vulnerable to measles," Robinson says. They're the primary target of vaccination campaigns. "It takes just a few days to get them vaccinated but it also takes a very short time for the virus to kill them."
http://www.npr.org/2015/01/30/382716075/measles-is-a-killer-it-took-145-000-lives-worldwide-last-year
Orrex
(67,111 posts)That's true, but it's primarily because:
1. A vastly larger number people are vaccinated against measles; therefore, fewer people contract measles.
2. Influenza mutates more readily than measles, so a vaccine that's effective one season may not be effective the next time around.
Simply put, there is no comparison between the vaccines, so policies governing the distribution of one should have little bearing on the distribution of the other.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)But, there are plenty of people on DU who think kids should be thrown into the foster system because their parents haven't vaccinated them.
FWIW, I understand the difference between flu vaccine and MMR, but there are people who think it is child abuse to allow your child to "suffer" from any preventable disease--presumably including flu.
Orrex
(67,111 posts)Without a link, I'm not worried about what "plenty of people on DU" think, nor about anonymous "people who think it is child abuse," and I'm not going to speculate about these absent commentators. Point me to a discussion, and I'll participate in it.
It is preposterously ignorant and neglectful for a parent not to vaccinate a child who doesn't have some medical reason not to be vaccinated. Although such a choice by the parents isn't automatically a sign of abuse, it does suggest a careless and foolish disregard for the child's safety, and this in turn might merit closer scrutiny.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)Orrex
(67,111 posts)One goof in one thread does not a trend make.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026164540#post76
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)And I don't think that guy was joking.
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)you're referring to, YarnAddict, and I'm not seeing what you're seeing. What I am seeing are a lot of people who are frustrated beyond belief by the ability of a minority of no-nowts to create a public health risk because their "mommy/daddy gut" tells them vaccines are bad.
The calls to charge parents with child abuse is a reaction to that frustration. Yes, there may be a few who really think that should be the case, but the majority are venting. I am furious with the anti-vaxxers and it wouldn't bother me in the least to see them charged with endangering the public health - IF it could be proven that their failure to vaccinate OR quarantine their sick children was at the root of an outbreak. That doesn't mean I think they should have their children removed from the home. It does mean that I think they should be forced to understand that there are consequences to their decision.
This isn't a question of individual right. It is one of public responsibility.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)is unnecessary and inappropriate on a board dedicated to support of Dem policies and candidates, because it gives the Neanderthal lurkers fodder to take back to their insignificant little discussion boards.
BTW, the right isn't blaming anti-vaxxers for this outbreak. Do I need to tell you who they are blaming and why?
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)It was progressives who championed public health campaigns in the early 20th century and since. Arguing that people should not be allowed to threaten the public health through their personal choices is, actually, a liberal position.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)no different than a Christian Scientist parent who lets their kid die from diabetes because its against their religion to take them to a doctor.
Assuming their child didn't contract and/or spread a dangerous infectious disease, due to their neglect, they should be given an opportunity to do the responsible thing and make sure their child's vaccine schedule is up to date. However, if they actually put their child or other people in danger, and it can be proven, then legal remedies may need to be used, including possibly criminal prosecution.
Look, in the olden days, before some of these diseases had vaccines, it made sense for parents to throw chickenpox parties, etc. At least for the milder diseases, nowadays, there is no excuse, there is a vaccine out there that can prevent chickenpox! I remember getting chickenpox, I was 6 almost 7 and it was horrible, hell I gave it to my sister, who was less than 1 year old at the time. And you know what's worse than having chickenpox? Giving it to someone else and making them miserable. About a couple of years ago, my sister, who is in her mid-20s, got shingles, luckily it wasn't that severe, mild palsy and numbness over half her body, but the fact is that I gave that virus to her, and it has been in her ever since, waiting for an opportunity to reinfect its host.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)We can thank science for that. Even with the flat earth fundies out there we have still overcome so much. Great point in support of vaccinations. Thanks.
fredamae
(4,458 posts)a choice about vaccinating our kids....Equally WE who value vaccinating our kids.....Should also have a choice whether or not we want Anti-Vaxxers mingling amongst Us, do we not?
I say, exercise your choice, but understand you and your kids could be quarantined in your homes for Public Safety reasons.
No need to take away choice..but don't deny the majority a choice to cope with it...safely.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)I don't like to see some of the accusations of child abuse and threats of taking children away, based on what some think people should have to do.
alarimer
(17,146 posts)The ONLY exception should be for medical reasons. Some with compromised immune systems cannot be vaccinated.
No options to refuse.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)Annual flu vaccine? Gardisil?
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)Lots of people are skipping that one. For some of them, it will mean that their daughters will die from cervical cancer needlessly. Those who argue that their daughters will not have unsafe sex or that getting the Gardasil shots will keep them from engaging in casual sex are foolish. The HPV virus is epidemic in men in the US, most of whom have no idea that they are infected.
Anyone's daughter may end up getting HPV from the only man they ever have sex with, and many will. If I had a daughter, she'd get the shots, since almost everyone does have sex at some point. Why take the risk? Why not minimize your chances of dying from cervical cancer?
People are stupid about public health issues. That stupidity can kill them or their children.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)is something a young woman can choose to have, when she is old enough to make that choice. Until then, I don't think it should be routinely given.
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)Are you sure? I don't know about you, but when I was in high school, I and many other fellow students were sexually active. None of us was over 18. That was back in the early 1960s. We didn't have contraception readily available either. Some girls got pregnant. Some got illegal abortions. None of that stopped those teenagers from having sex.
Do you suppose it's any different today? I don't. I was a nice boy. I was a regular churchgoing boy. My girlfriend was a nice girl, and went to the same church. We were sexually active. She didn't get pregnant, and HPV was not an epidemic yet in the US. We got through that period OK. Dumb luck, really, and a good understanding of what caused pregnancies.
Many, many kids are sexually active before they're old enough to decide to have the Gardasil shots. It's up to their parents to discuss that with them and help them make good decisions. Pretending there's no risk is not responsible. Yes, it's all awkward to talk about. But responsible parents recognize that their teenagers might just become sexually active and do whatever they can to protect them from the possible consequences of that. Smart parents do that, anyhow.
Boys should get Gardasil, too. They're the carriers of the virus.
Here's something else to keep in mind: Not all sex is voluntary and consensual.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)I said when she is old enough to make an informed choice for herself. If she is told the pros and cons, she might be able to say at the age of 14 or 16 that she wants the vaccine, or that she isn't ready, or that she doesn't want it at all, subject to change at a later date.
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)I see. Well, it's your kids, not mine.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)I had a friend who said that all the time.
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)My wife's mom is second-generation Norwegian-American. I've adopted the phrase.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)You really should read up. It is only a couple of paragraphs. You have to have the full vaccine program BEFORE you become sexually active. Then it is effective, even if you never have sex.
Phentex
(16,709 posts)it's also recommended for males age 9 to 26 so I think it's a good idea for teen boys. It does require three doses spread apart over a certain amount of time and it's expensive. But I think it is well worth the protection.
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)but I was focusing on cervical cancer, which is why the vaccine was created. But males are the carriers of the virus, and vaccinating boys is the real solution to the problem, but it will continue to be a problem for a very long time, because so many parents are not taking that step. I think it should be available at no cost, frankly, and subsidized.
I added a note to my post above. Thanks!
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Anything that helps prevent serious illness is good by me. The shot also helps prevent certain kinds of cancers in guys too.
Last I heard, they were both on board to get this.
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)If you don't, there's a chance of acquiring the HPV virus the very first time you have sex. Prevention requires forethought.
One of the problems is that many parents just can't or don't want to imagine little Heather or Jason as a sexual being. That's the source of many issues involving adolescent sexual activity. Even parents who were sexually active as teens themselves often have such weird thinking. Illogical, isn't it?
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)People can live in denial, but that doesn't change reality.
My guys are on the older age end of the spectrum, so they already have had sex. I told them to ask the doctor, and follow his advice. If they were 11 or 12 I would get it for them in a heart beat. Nothing wrong with science.
Phentex
(16,709 posts)this is just a personal anecdote. I have a friend who insists her parents never knew about anything she did as a teen. She says they thought she was a saint when in fact she was anything but. She told me about things she was doing at age 14 or so and it's enough to make my eyes pop. But now that she has girls, she swears they are very naive and innocent and they just don't know about such things. Somehow something came up about Paris Hilton and she insisted her 15 year old had never heard of her. In this day of the internet and cell phones (which her kids had at age 11), I don't see how some things are possible to keep from today's kids. And knowing that SHE hid everything from her parents, why wouldn't she think her kids were capable of the same? I have no knowledge of what her now 17 year old does or does not do, but I can't imagine NOT talking to her about sex just because I think she may not have had sex.
missingthebigdog
(1,233 posts)Cervical cancer is a low incidence cancer. A woman's LIFETIME risk of developing cervical cancer is 0.7%.
http://seer.cancer.gov/statfacts/html/cervix.html
Furthermore, Gardasil does not immunize women against all forms of HPV- there are more than 150 strains. It does not even cover all of the strains that cause cervical cancer.
The single most important thing you can do to prevent a woman you love from getting or dying from cervical cancer is to make sure she has an annual PAP exam.
Vaccinating is not a bad choice, but should not be used instead of an annual exam. PAP testing has dramatically reduced the incidence and mortality of cervical cancer.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)How do you force a old person to get a shingles or flu shot?
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)MineralMan
(151,269 posts)There is no smallpox vaccine at all any more. That's because smallpox was eradicated from the planet through universal vaccination.
When was the last case of diphtheria that you heard of? How many kids in your town have had polio?
That's where we draw the line. When the disease no longer exists, we can stop vaccinating. We did it with smallpox, and probably could eliminate diphtheria soon, too. It still occurs in some countries, but is almost never seen in the US any longer, due to a longstanding immunization program here.
Let's eradicate all of those deadly childhood diseases!
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)Would you mandate that parents have their healthy kids vaccinated against the flu, just in case they may expose an immunocompromised child, or adult?
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)This year's version, for example, missed the mutated H2N3 that is currently circulating. I get my shot every year, because I'm older. The flu vaccine reduces the number of deaths from the disease every year. Should it be mandatory? I don't know. But, when the universal flu vaccine that is under development is available, then I vote yes for mandatory vaccination with it. I'll be the first to line up.
I'm hopeful that I won't get it this year, and am taking the usual precautions. The thing is that my wife and I have her 86 year old mother to think about. She needs assistance with things. We need to not get the flu, so we can help her.
I notice that you did not comment on my post about the smallpox vaccine. It was the first vaccine. It took a very long time to eradicate smallpox, but that was accomplished, due to universal vaccination. Many people fought that, too. From your OP, apparently you were not aware that nobody needs to be vaccinated against smallpox now, thanks to universal vaccination that eliminated that disease. Diphtheria is next. It killed many, many children in the 19th century. Now, we have almost zero cases of the disease in the US each year, and most of those are in recent immigrants from places where the disease still exists.
This science works. It saves lives. I like the idea of saving lives.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)Just didn't seem worthwhile. I have this (maybe crazy) philosophy that your immune system needs some exercise once in awhile, by getting sick and recovering.
We rarely, if ever, got sick.
One year when my dh had a psychopathic boss, the boss came into his office, loomed over my husband's desk, and told him that if he didn't get the flu shot he would be fired if he called in sick FOR ANY REASON. Fall and break your arm, fired. Have aches and pains from a minor accident, fired. Etc. And just for the record, my husband has NEVER abused sick time. The very first sick time he ever took was when he had a stroke after he had been employed for 25 years. (He also went back to work after that event way too early.)
Maybe that's why I hate the idea of mandatory anything.
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)you might just get away with it. Or, you might end up sitting beside a hospital bed, watching your kid trying to survive complications. You wan't a choice? There it is.
I rarely get sick, either. I did once, though, and almost died. All from a mosquito bite, which led to viral encephalitis and a week in a coma. You just never know, do you?
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)I started getting flu vaccine a few years ago, after I was diagnosed with a serious heart condition, related to the radiation treatment I got for Hodgkins Disease nearly 30 years ago.
uppityperson
(116,020 posts)They are fighting off infections very often. Bacteria and viruses are around us all the time and your immune system works to fight them off, unless you are imunocompromised.
Our systems also deal with cells within our bodies that have mutated into cancer cells, or potential ones.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)something like 95% of US children are vaccinated for these diseases, with the exception of the Flu. Not high enough of a number for that Herd Immunity rate?
CDC also has statistics on recommended adult vaccinations/booster rates. Herd Immunity? Some vaccine rates for adults are under 50%, including diphtheria/tetanus/pertussis boosters. While the Senior rates are much higher than young adults rates, even those are not more than the 60/70% range; far lower than the vaccination rate for children.
Did these rates go up with ACA with more people having coverage and preventative coverage? Since the last report I found was from before, maybe it did? At any rate, Medicare was around for Seniors.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6305a4.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6334a1.htm
uppityperson
(116,020 posts)like in the past. I don't know what they changed, but it seems to not do that anymore.
progressoid
(53,179 posts)That's the nature of a vaccination.
Vaccination is the administration of antigenic material (a vaccine) to stimulate an individual's immune system to develop adaptive immunity to a pathogen.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)When a universal flu vaccine is developed, it should be mandatory.
Some employers make flu vaccines mandatory, too. Mine does, mostly due to the amount of travel we do.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)I would like to believe a vaccination can be developed that would be 100% effective and cover all conceivable mutations, but that's probably not going to happen any time soon. The virus is just too tricky, shape-shifting from one year to the next.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Herd immunity is the reason for making a vaccine mandatory. Socially, it means developing enough immunity within the herd keeps those who cannot be immune from contracting the disease.
MMRV is a good example of a vaccine that, so long as one cannot opt out except for medical necessity, will provide herd immunity for four separate diseases. If MMRV were mandated globally, we'd eradicate the four diseases within a generation.
Polio is another.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Are you saying the influenza vaccine shouldn't be mandatory? Influenza infects tens of thousands in the US with a variable mortality rate depending on severity and duration of each year's outbreak; it's estimated there are between 6K and 49K deaths yearly but probably much more than that because of under-reporting. It's the 8th leading cause of death in the US.
The efficacy of the vaccine won't provide herd immunity, but it does help in preventing the spread of influenza; there are numerous benefits associated with that. Preventing death associated with influenza, even if limited, is a good reason to make it mandatory.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)I don't think the penalties for failing to comply should be as harsh as those for diseases where we have vaccines capable of providing herd immunity, though.
My personal opinion on what those penalties should be is mandatory isolation. No direct interaction with society whatsoever if you refuse to be vaccinated for diseases where compliance produces herd immunity. The goal is eradication with those diseases and those who fail to comply destroy our capability to eradicate.
For flu vaccines, non-compliance should not come with such a harsh penalty.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Wouldn't it be great if we didn't need them? If people were informed and understood the benefits vs. risks, and with that knowledge, voluntarily vaccinated themselves and their kids? Unfortunately we seem to be moving in the other direction.
I think the federal gov. should make all available vaccinations FREE and easy to obtain for anyone wanting them. There should be no associated costs.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)You are only protected against the strain the CDC thinks will be prevalent in any given year. If they guess wrong or if the strain mutates (like it did this year), the vaccine is not very effective.
Influenza is a rapidly mutating virus. It is not like MMR or Polio or Chicken Pox that doesn't mutate.
True if you have a vaccine with at least limited effectiveness, you may not get as a severe case. However, you still become contagious. That makes the "herd immunity" argument invalid.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)At that time, there was an avian flu scare. Enjoy! 
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=228x5742
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)The US has a stockpile of the vaccine large enough to cover everybody in the country, and I got one just about five years ago when I deployed to the Gulf.
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)I remember getting some pretty strange vaccinations back in the late 60s in the USAF. I was going to be stationed in Turkey. We got several vaccinations, including an experimental Cholera and Plague vaccine. Typhoid and Typhus, too. The plague shot made me sick as a dog for a couple of days. Ick!
I just found my USAF vaccination record the other day. Sheesh!
yellowcanine
(36,792 posts)
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)We 'draw the line' based on science and statistics. We stop vaccinating for things when we eliminate them, like smallpox. We don't decide things should be 'optional' simply because some people scream 'Freedumb!'
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)The last wild case of smallpox on earth was in 1978.
The virus now only exists in two labs.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)Except when there is a medical reason to not have them. Yes, that includes chicken pox, flu, and HPV.
oldandhappy
(6,719 posts)Someone is paying for treatment for unvaccinated kids who get the measles. Suppose the families have insurance. Or we are paying if there is no insurance. Curious.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)This means all vaccines are free, regardless.
Insurance companies have little problem with this because in the long term, it's cheaper than paying to care for those who get sick with preventable diseases.
oldandhappy
(6,719 posts)come out publicly and support vaccines or structure co-pays to favor those who do vaccinate or ?? Insurance companies have a lot of power.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)It's also why birth control is free because the drug is considered a preventative measure. Insurance companies also have no problem with this because paying for the pill is cheaper than paying for a pregnancy.
rgbecker
(4,890 posts)Whether the effects are temporary or lifelong, widespread vaccination could have a substantial public health impact. 270,000 women died of cervical cancer worldwide in 2002.[51] Acting FDA Administrator Andrew von Eschenbach said the vaccine will have "a dramatic effect" on the health of women around the world.[52] Even in the United States, where screening programs are routine, the National Cancer Institute estimated that 9,700 women would develop cervical cancer in 2006, and 3,700 would die.[53
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardasil
Mercury[edit]
This theory hypothesizes that autism is associated with mercury poisoning, based on perceived similarity of symptoms and reports of mercury or its biomarkers in some autistic children.[58] This view has gained little traction in the scientific community as the typical symptoms of mercury toxicity are significantly different from symptoms seen in autism.[59] The principal source of human exposure to organic mercury is via fish consumption and for inorganic mercury is dental amalgams. Other forms of exposure, such as in cosmetics and vaccines, also occur. The evidence so far is indirect for the association between autism and mercury exposure after birth, as no direct test has been reported, and there is no evidence of an association between autism and postnatal exposure to any neurotoxicant.[60] A meta-analysis published in 2007 concluded that there was no link between mercury and autism.[61]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_autism
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)as a child because I traveled to parts of the world that were behind the US in vaccination rates.
In 1967 as many as 2 million died of small pox. The last case was seen in October of 1977. Think about that next time you want to skip a jab. Two million dead from a very painful disease vs no cases at all, anywhere.
Back in the early days of the AIDS crisis we had a saying that is still true today, I recommend taking it to heart:
Knowledge = Life
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)We all lined up and the school nurse gave us the scratches on our arms. A week later, our arms were checked to make sure the vaccine had caused the pustule that demonstrated that it had worked. 1950.
My scar is still faintly visible.
It's a badge of the times when I was born. Thank goodness people don't have to worry about smallpox any longer.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)I got a second one in 1981 when I joined the army.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)My awesome mother, not wanting that ugly scar to be visible, made them give it to me UNDER my left arm. When I was a kid vaccinations were free and they gave them to us in school.
Knowledge = Life. Yes.
I worked with HIV patients early on and through the years; before antivirals and after. I am still hoping for a vaccine. It's been 22 long years since GP160 which had a lot of initial promise, went belly up.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)But I was also military, and it's required for deployment.
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)Last edited Mon Feb 2, 2015, 12:39 PM - Edit history (1)
When I lived in California, I had a very good friend who was a textile artist. He had spectacular talent, and his works hang in museums. Then he ordered some raw wool from Pakistan. It was special wool from some rare goat variety, and wasn't available in the United States, so he ordered it and had it shipped here, to spin into yarn for an upcoming project.
Two weeks after it arrived, he died of anthrax in a hospital near where he lived. You see, the reason that raw wool wasn't available is because anthrax is common in that region and US laws prohibit the import of raw wool from that region. He couldn't be bothered with that law and got around it to get what he wanted. He died. He endangered many people in the process, since his illness wasn't quickly diagnosed, since it's rarely seen in the US. Fortunately, he did not transmit the disease to others. The wool he had illegally imported was destroyed by the authorities and nobody else got anthrax.
Public health laws are important.
http://www.apnewsarchive.com/2001/Anthrax-Cases-Stir-Painful-Memories/id-9d7b6f0d17467890ff2a0a74ca06ea7a
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Why not vaccinate to PREVENT infectious diseases if we have the means to do so? I certainly want my child to be spared suffering or dying from one, why don't other parents? Are they ok risking their child getting polio because they think the vaccination might harm their child, even though there is NO evidence to support their skewed belief?
Smallpox, a horrific disease, was eradicated because of a successful global vaccination campaign. I don't understand the fear and the willingness to put children at risk.
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)Often it is deliberate ignorance. It's puzzling and troublesome to me.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Mississippi lawmakers will vote on a bill allowing parents to choose to vaccinate their children. Now Christie is opening his big mouth. But what do we expect? There's been a war against science in this country for decades now.
BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)
reddread
(6,896 posts)could be using illegal drugs, might have some health issues not being addressed.
the cost of imprisoning bad parents is prohibitive, more economical to have them destroyed.
for the sake of society, we must be proactive here.
the line is WAY back there, somewhere.
this is a campaign to expand power over personal lives and support corporate profit margins
for years to come.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)Avalux
(35,015 posts)but if I did, they would be vaccinated.
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Most of my career has been focused on infectious diseases research and it boggles my mind that people would refuse to vaccinate their kids, leaving them susceptible to harm. There really is no good reason to not vaccinate. Conspiracy theories are just that, and until I see evidence to back them up, I'll go with science.
reddread
(6,896 posts)they CONSTANTLY set the example of
disregarding the facts, lying, maligning
and screwing up on such an epic scale,
with ZERO regard for human lives over profit,
fomenting well earned distrust and cynicism.
ANYONE dumb enough to trust them, should not be trusted.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)all non-medical reasons to opt out of vaccines shouldn't be allowed.
Response to YarnAddict (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Jamastiene
(38,206 posts)diseases we have successfully fought through vaccines really were? I have family members who were alive when a lot of these childhood diseases killed kids. It was horrible. If a parent can protect their kid from a horrible, slow, agonizing death, I would think they would want to, not pitch a temper tantrum to put their kids in danger.
The anti-vaxxer argument reminds me of those people who went to school sick as kids. They gave their nasty ass flu and other communicable diseases to all the rest of the kids and got their perfect attendance. Damn anybody they put through hell to get their perfect attendance. Meanwhile kids got sick, parents had to rearrange their entire work schedule, other kids had to stay elsewhere to keep from catching it too, and teachers had to do a lot of extra work trying help the kids who got sick and had the common courtesy to stay home get caught up on their schoolwork.
It's selfish, to say the least. It's worse than the kids that pitch temper tantrums and kick and scream in the middle of the aisle (or in some cases parking lots) because they didn't get their way. Damn anyone else who might be put at risk because of their own selfish behavior.
I am not one who usually has strong opinions on these things, but on this, I see the importance of community immunity. I would rather half the world not be buried in mass graves because of outbreaks of horrible infectious diseases that killed so many before vaccines were available to help put a stop to that misery and tragedy. That vast majority of us who don't gripe and complain about vaccines would rather not live in a world like that, full of disease and death and agony.
In what kind of fairy tale land is it more important to NOT be protected from things like small pox? I would say they kind of deserve their Darwin Awards if they don't, BUT a lot of the people who are raising hell about vaccines are not vaccinating their children. Their children do not deserve to die an agonizing death because they have parents with their heads in the clouds.
I have been getting my flu shot for several years now. I also haven't had the flu for several years now. I don't miss the flu at all. Yes, it made me feel bad the first couple of years when I took it, for about a day and a half, then everything was fine. I'm used to it now and no longer feel anything other than a little tingling for a couple hours.
I wish more people just STFU, close their eyes and take the damn shots. 99% of it is the pharmacist or doctor rubbing alcohol on your arm, getting his supplies ready, then abracadabra, it's done. It'll be over with before you know it. It's not THAT bad.
dissentient
(861 posts)or their children receive vaccines.
This is very important in a free society like the United States.
The only scenario where a vaccine should be forced on people is a doomsday scenario where some plague or killer disease appears and spreads world-wide, and threatens human existence.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)How is that a "free society?" Let's get rid of all drunk driving laws, too! Woo hoo!
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Due to the mass vaccinations that wiped the virus out. it is extinct except for in two labs worldwide. One in the US and one in Russia.
Ms. Toad
(38,639 posts)without all of the screaming and name calling.
Generally mandatory (with exceptions for religious reasons, or in consultation with the child's physician)
MMR
DTaP
IPV (polio)
Hib, Hep A, and possibly RV for children in state licensed day care - but not generally as a prerequisite for children entering kindergarten if they have not previously been in child care. Mandatory vaccination on entry to kindergarten is because it is the easiest point to catch unvaccinated children - even though the high risk/transmission period for these three diseases ends before kindergarten). That said, the state licensed day care criteria is a similar easy-to-catch criteria. It is more age appropriate, but unlicensed home child care for multiple children is also risky. Other than drawing the easy line - I'm not sure where to draw the line. Certainly children like my child who was never cared for by anyone other than her parents (or with any other child) until she was 18 months old, and never in a group setting until she was out of diapers, should be excluded from the vaccination requirement. She missed it being a kindergarten entry requirement by one year - had she been a year younger we would have been required to vaccinate her for HiB, even though she was at least 2 years past the age of risk (Toddlers who are in group childcare are the at risk and/or high rate of transmission population.) RV is "possibly" because it is highly transmissible through fecal-oral transmission - obviously a high risk for children in day care - but the vaccine is not a very effective vaccine. So even if everyone is vaccinated it would be less likely to create herd immunity.
All vaccines should be available as separate components, without additional cost, for parents who want to spread the immunizations out.
All other vaccinations should be recommended, perhaps even with mandatory risk counseling, but not mandatory vaccinations.
Smallpox is no longer even recommended in this country, BTW
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)That was one that wasn't even offered when my kids were little, and I didn't know of anyone who had it at that time, but years later a nurse friend of mine had a grandchild who had it, and freaked out about toys in the church nursery. When she described it, it just sounded like a nasty stomach bug.
Hib was new when my kids were young, and they got it, but I don't believe it was required for kindergarten. No Hep A.
You know, that sounds like a LOT of vaccines for little kids--I heard today something about 36 vaccines (or doses) by the time they are 36 months old. Someone speculated that the high incidence of autism is not related to the vaccines per se, but to the immense number they are given within a short period of time.
As I said, I am not anti-vax, at all, but sometimes I do wonder about all the crap that gets put into our bodies one way or another.
When my dentist recommended sealants for my kids' teeth, I had some real questions--like, since they aren't permanent, where in the body do they go? And what are the possible longterm negative effects, since they hadn't been around all that long at the time.
Instead of answering my questions reasonably, he freaked out at me. Came out to the waiting room and yelled at me in front of other patients. He asked if I don't trust the ADA, or the AMA. Short answer: no. I was too stunned to say anything at the time, but the two things that popped into my mind were thalidomide and DES. Things that were routinely prescribed, but were found to have dire consequences. In the case of DES, it was prescribed for some 30 years before it was discovered to cause vaginal cancer in daughters of patients who had taken it!
Anyway, thank you so much for your reasoned and reasonable reply!
Ms. Toad
(38,639 posts)Here's the recommended list:
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/downloads/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs.pdf It's about 36.
In Ohio HiB started being required around 1996, the year after my daughter entered kindergarten. It was recommended a little before that, I did my research and it was clear that the big risk was transmission in day care settings. By the time they hit kindergarten, there is little to no risk of either transmission or acquiring the illness (at least in a form that is serious).
The ones I listed are illnesses that are unusually risky - or unusually risky in a particular population. I think it is important not only personally, but for purposes of herd immunity, to have an expectation of nearly uniform vaccination.
Beyond that, I think parents in consultation with their doctors should make the decision. My daughter has an autoimmune disorder, so I don't think the idea of intentionally boosting her immune system with adjuvants for illnesses with a lower risk, or a situational risk (HPV for a girl who is not sexually active, Hib for a kindergartner who was never in child care, or influenza for a population in which the consequences are less likely to be severe). My daughter has had the influenza vaccine in years when it has decent coverage - and it is hitting her age particularly hard. We delayed the HPV vaccine, but when she started contemplating sexual activity, she received the vaccine.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)The phrasing smells too much like right-wing foot-dragging.
There's no need to draw a line in advance. We vaccinate more and more until the disease isn't so much of a threat, and if we really fucking care about human life, we keep vaccinating until we eradicate the disease.
Germs are a moving target. We should move.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Including flu shots for those around the very young and the very old. Gardasil can remain optional, but it's a dang smart option.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Are you old enough to remember the huge sigh of relief in parents around the world when the salk vaccine was announced? Old enough to remember the kids in leg braces? The iron lungs?
We lined up for that vaccine. Couldn't get it fast enough. You got a call from your family doctor and you drove immediately to get it.
WTF is wrong with people?
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)I think it was everyone from 6 months to 60 years or something like that. The state stopped an outbreak in it's tracks. That was back in the 90's ( maybe 95?) and now Rhode Island requires every college student to have the vaccine also. Very glad they do.
People who spread anti vaccine bullshit are dangerous to society as a whole.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)nt