Can you put down your pitchfork long enough to discuss the root causes of the anti-vax problem?

[whereisjustice]

As a culture are we able to stop attacking the anti-vax crowd long enough to dig below the surface?

I'll warn you - such retrospection requires rational logic, a bit of empathy, historical perspective and most importantly, you need to put down your pitch fork for a minute. And there are potentially some inconvenient truths lurking, so you must be brave.

(Yeah, I know. It's fun waving that thing around in a primal anger sort of way, playing war hero against an existential anti-vax army.)

How did we get here?

It wasn't easy, that's for sure. It took arrogance, recklessness, fraud, and corruption and an unwillingness to invest in the checks and balances to maintain public trust.

1. PhRMA is responsible for their relentless pursuit of profit at any cost to human health. This erodes trust.

2. The government is responsible for failing to objectively regulate PhRMA due to the massive financial contributions PhRMA makes to election campaigns. People see how drug money is interfering with science and public health outcomes. We have the most expensive and inefficient health care system in the world, based on dollar input per positive output. We make a few people rich at the expense of public health. This erodes trust.

3. Recent cases of drug fraud and drug failures resulting in thousands of deaths and millions of injuries. Drugs remained on the market long long after evidence should have been used to pull them off the market.
http://prescriptiondrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=005528

4. The India Generic Drug Scandal - Bone chilling account of cost cutting measures gone bad.
http://fortune.com/2013/05/15/dirty-medicine/

5. Bill Gates and HPV Vaccine Testing on the Poor in India
The committee found that consent for conducting these studies, in many cases, was taken from the hostel wardens, which was a flagrant violation of norms. In many other cases, thumbprint impressions of their poor and illiterate parents were duly affixed onto the consent form. The children also had no idea about the nature of the disease or the vaccine. The authorities concerned could not furnish requisite consent forms for the vaccinated children in a huge number of cases.

The committee said it was "deeply shocked to find that in Andhra Pradesh out of the 9,543 [consent] forms, 1,948 forms have thumb impressions while hostel wardens have signed 2,763 forms. In Gujarat, out of the 6,217 forms 3,944 have thumb impressions and 5,454 either signed or carried thumb impressions of guardians. The data revealed that a very large number of parents or guardians are illiterate and could not even write in their local languages, Telugu or Gujarati."
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2014-08-31/news/53413161_1_hpv-vaccine-cervarix-human-papilloma-virus

6. We are over-medicated. However, I believe, people are confusing use of vaccines with over use of antibiotics causing anti-bacterial resistance.

7. We are exposed to too many chemicals in our daily lives. And every one who has a vested financial interest in them claims they are perfectly safe. From hormone enriched meats and produce to volatile organic compounds, pesticides and herbicides in our water supply and food chain. All perfectly safe, no?

8. It was really, really stupid to leave mercury as a preservative in vaccines for so long. Everyone knows mercury is bad shit. Doesn't matter how loudly you exclaim it's perfectly safe, people remember mercury poisoning in Japan and the heartbreaking photos. My understanding is that mercury is now only used in flu shot, and the amounts of mercury used are lower than they were in the past. However, research into safer alternatives should be funded. As long as mercury is in the shot, people are going to freak out. Then there are amalgam dental filings, but I digress...

9. The Tuskegee syphilis experiment (/tʌsˈkiːɡiː/)[1] was an infamous clinical study conducted between 1932 and 1972 by the U.S. Public Health Service to study the natural progression of untreated syphilis in rural African American men who thought they were receiving free health care from the U.S. government.[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment

10. Arrogance. We don't see polio nor measles. A false sense of superiority attributed to "good living" is being confused with years of devotion to disease eradication via a very socialized medicine called vaccination. Vaccination requires a shared sacrifice. Too many people believe they are better than this. Finally, there is the arrogance of a people yelling at each other without really understanding the basis for fear, nor the recklessness of blind obedience.

Add it all up and perhaps it starts to make sense.

I've already been called a woo woo with blood on my hands killing people for daring to discuss this topic.

From this I assert we need a vaccine to prevent arrogance and stupidity more than any other disease.

We cannot begin to fix the problem without understanding the problem.


On edit - I have more than my share of vaccines. I will wager far more than those who will attack me on this thread. I took them because of frequent travel in Asia. All up to date.

And I really don't give a shit what you call me. i know I am doing the right thing by discussing this.

We created the problems. Now we have to deal with the consequences.

If you want vaccination more widespread, then that has to start with trust between Government and PhARMA. Better checks and balances need to be in place. Plenty of very well educated simply do not trust PhARMA or government assertions that everything is absolutely safe and effective.

[bettyellen]

1. you left out: they do not want to see there is a problem, till they find a scapegoat

it sucks, but I think that is the reason more than anything. You see it all the time.

[snooper2]

199. and, you must be BRAVE!

Same thing goes for chemtrails, you have to be brave, take off the binders and search for the truth! It is out there on the intertubes! There is even a former environmentalist for the army on the talking circuit! The army shut her up about CHEMTRAILS THEY ARE DOING!

must be BRAVE!

LOL

[blackcrow]

2. pitchforks

I see the pitchforks waving in the air also.

Nice to see I'm not the only one with a degree of rational thought.

Any one of a number of vaccines would be a death sentence for me, due to GB, so the pitchfork crowd can lump it.

[TransitJohn]

3. People just want to feel in control because it makes them feel good.

To some it's not vaccinating their children, "because I've done my research." To others, it's going gluten free when they have no medical reason to do so, it just makes them, "feel better." To others, it's vegetarianism or veganism. Not vaccinating seems to be about the only one of these types of this sort of thing that directly and adversely affects the health of others, so it is justly vilified, in my opinion. People being selfish and stupid don't really deserve patience and understanding. They've given none to the rest of society.

[bettyellen]

223. sadly, because of this impulse to believe it is 100% an outside cause, few advocate

for the genetic research or styudyng some of the actual causes. I get why it is hard to own up to crappy luck in the genetic lottery, I totally do. But it leads too many people far astray.

[MohRokTah]

4. No, eject them from society.

They cannot and will not be reasoned worth. Attempting to do so is a waste of time.

Isolate them from society completely. No human contact whatsoever unless they comply.

This is about the species. Fuck ignorant assholes who refuse the social compact.

[gopiscrap]

75. I agree

[zeemike]

81. If it were about the species we would not have atomic weapons.

And any number of other things that could wipe us out.
But disease has never done that and never will...even the black death did not kill everyone, but start an atomic war and we could do it in a matter of hours.

But your plan sounds like something out of a dystopian sci fi book...did you forget the sarcasme thing?

[Hari Seldon]

121. Throw em in Concentration Camps!

The Jews were carriers of disease in Nazi Germany, but they knew what to do with people who didn't agree with SCIENCE (yes the Nazis used SCIENCE to justify the holocaust - so you know where the alert button is too don't you?)

Sorry if some people don't trust the same people you do.

I sure hope you have it more right then the citizens of germany. Hell, they didn't have to think about it either.

[ann---]

126. Are you

serious? Not everything is comparable to the Holocaust. The science of vaccinations is to prevent deaths - not cause them.

[Fumesucker]

130. It's not a huge step from "eject them from society" to "concentration camps"

I think that was the point of the poster who was replying to another poster who wanted to eject certain people from society.

[treestar]

184. Baloney, the Jews thought no such thing

anti-vaxxers endanger the rest of us with what should be eradicated diseases.

[SidDithers]

222. No. Just throw 'em off DU...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=inbox&view=1749461

Thanks, EarlG.

Sid

[Chemisse]

134. Really it would be more efficient to line them up and shoot them.

I think that on this thread I need:

[2pooped2pop]

174. yep

some on this "democratic" thread have some really off reality ideas for those that don't agree with them.

Remove them all?
Send them all to foster care?

Yep, just shooting would be more efficient.

and sadly, if you had not put the sarcasm icon up, you might have have some rooting you on.

[GoneFishin]

209. With right wing comments like that it is hard to tell who is more Coo Coo For Cocoa Puffs.

[2pooped2pop]

221. yes it is

and a little surprising for a place like this. They would be alerting if the same things were being directed at them.

I am not anti-vaccine, but I do understand why they are concerned. An informative campaign would help.

When Rumsfeld was pushing for the bird flu virus vaccines, they weren't so on board with vaccines then. I would not get anything Rumsfeld wanted me to get.

[KingCharlemagne]

5. #11 - piss-poor science education. 70% of Americans believe that angels actually exist. Q.E.D. - nt

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

169. I had to check the comments before posting because I knew someone else would have

already noted this. I was going to point specifically to statistics, logic, and a real understanding of the scientific process, but it is true that that is a subset of our greater addiction to fantasy and rejection of reality as a nation.

I don't want to get labeled a conspiracy theorist, but I wonder how much of that is related to the explosive growth of television and the internet over the last half century, allowing actual 'fantasy worlds' to provide the input our brains process for a far greater percentage of the day. Whether we're playing 'Halo' or 'Lord of the Rings Online' or watching 'Mike and Molly' or 'The Young and the Restless' or 'Jersey Shore' or televised sports, we're being surrounded with either outright 'unreality' or simply a twisted and overdramatized reality, that teaches us to overreact to stimuli, to interact with others with more emotion and less logic. Obviously I'm not saying we're being taught to hack our 'foes' to death with swords or mow them down with assault weapons (except in the cases of people who are already mentally deranged, who just are suggested the method to use when enacting their existing violent fantasies), but we are taught to 'trash talk', to behave egotistically rather than empathetically, to escalate situations, rather than simply try and figure them out. That competition is better than cooperation. That emotionality rather than rationality is something to be embraced, even idolized.

And why might we be addicted to fantasy? Because the world sucks in a lot of ways, and it's a lot of work to face the suckiness head on and actually work to fix it. Far easier to simply 'hide' away watching fantasy people who manage to live happy lives despite the suck around them, or to play games that we know are 'winnable', and thus feed our sense that we're 'accomplishing' something by 'leveling up' or getting better equipment or armour, rather than actually accomplishing something in reality, which takes far longer, is far messier, and never so clear cut.

[KingCharlemagne]

183. Your response would make a fine OP and allow you to elaborate somewhat on its themes. There's

a great book by Johan Huizinga titled Homo Ludens that speaks to some of what you are getting at. (The title translates from Latin as 'Man the (Game) Player,' I think.) Although his politics were a bit conservative for my taste, IIRC, Huizinga's take on game-playing and role-playing as means by which man mediates his lot in life is worth checking out (if you have not already done so).

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

190. Haven't read it, but it sounds like it indeed is running along the same lines of thought.

I speak from my own experiences of trading the real world for the 'satisfaction' of 'creating' in a fantasy world, and realizing it was like renting vs a mortgage. It feels ok while you're doing it, but at the end of the day (or the end of the contract) you leave with nothing real for all of the time (and/or money) you invested. When you learn skills in the real world, you walk away with skills to use. When you 'learn skills' in a game setting, they (for the most part) don't translate into anything useful outside of that one game environment.

Although I really would like to see people take some of the current game engines and design training simulations for real world skills in them. You could, for instance, use such game worlds to teach nursing students all of the supplies they'd need to gather for a given procedure, and the steps that must be performed and the problems that might arise during a given procedure. You'd still need to take them out into reality to actually DO those procedures, but they'd come to the real world experience with a lot of the cognitive parts already down pat. So we really COULD use such fantasy worlds to augment our real world, rather than to simply replace it as so many so now. By recreating reality as closely as possible within the virtual world, rather than using it as a space to create unreality.

[Overseas]

268. K&R. Dumbing down of the population has succeeded. We can see icecaps and glaciers melting and still

are fooled by multi-tiered PR to think There's Still A Lot of Doubt about climate disruption through wild and wasteful use of fossil fuels.

Although climate disruption in the past ten years-- the superstorms, the wildfires, the record heat waves-- has fit the predictions decades ago of the results of continuing to use fossil fuels at an accelerating pace, our media is up in arms about the measles, but doesn't condemn the climate change deniers with equal vigor.

Many still believe that solar is just Too Expensive, in spite of the billions spent on fossil fuel subsidies that haven't been spent on improving pipelines and clean up technologies after the oil spills that have cost still more billions.

[dissentient]

6. Thank you, recommended. It is not like all this suspicion is coming from a vacuum

You very astutely put the big pharma corporations in the number one slot.

"1. PhRMA is responsible for their relentless pursuit of profit at any cost to human health. This erodes trust."

This is huge. When average people every day sit in front of their televisions and see commercial after commercial from pharma mega corporations trying to sell them the latest pill that will improve their sex life, make them feel youthful again, and compel them to dance a jig in a beautiful and picturesque springtime setting with flowers and trees, naturally people become very suspicious of these huge profit making corporations.

Especially when they hear the long list of all the side effects that often sound worse than the malady it is supposedly going to treat.

I don't get why some people don't get that. These mega drug companies don't endear themselves to average people, and people are quite naturally suspicious of their drugs.

[jberryhill]

14. Bullshit

The MMR vaccine is not some patented premium new drug - it's been working for quite a long time.

Westinghouse made shitty nuclear power plants, but that has nothing to do with how well their freaking refrigerators work.

[dissentient]

16. Missing the point

This is what some people think, they associate these "miracle" drugs that they see advertised every day on their tvs with vaccines, and become suspicious.

I never said that is what I believe, the OP is about the perception of this issue, and why some people think this way.

[MohRokTah]

19. There is no way to alter their perceptions of reality.

Remove their children to become wards of the state and isolate them from society completely.

It's the only answer.

[dissentient]

21. Wow, to me that is beyond extreme

Let's just say I totally disagree with that position, and I don't think Hillary would agree with that either. Not if she wants to become president, at any rate.

[MohRokTah]

23. Since anti-vaxxers are an asymetric political group, you're right about politicans.

The ignorant fucks still need to be completely removed from society.

If we did so today with all the assholes globally, the diseases in question would be eradicated within a decade and then the assholes could be released as they would no longer be a danger to society.

[sabrina 1]

53. So the pro-vaxers want to 'remove those who don't agree with them from society'! Wow. That

is frightening. So the logic is 'we pro-vaxers care so much about humans we want to vaccinate them so they don't contract any diseases!

And if humans won't submit to our orders, 'the ignorant fucks should be removed from society'.

Now that is a very persuasive, 'scientific' argument!

I'm agnostic, or was, on this issue, but seeing the pro-vaxers extremist anger towards other people, I'm leaning towards those who are questioning all of this.

You are a very persuasive advocate for Big Pharma!

[2pooped2pop]

180. +1000 n/t

[snooper2]

201. Does Putin allow his comrades to be vaccinated or just segments of society?

[sabrina 1]

236. Are you in the wrong thread or something? My response was to a PRO-VAXER who wants to eliminate

people who dare to question what Big Pharma wants to put into their children's bodies.

ELIMINATE THEM!! Now THAT is called extremism. From Pro-Vaxers! That should make a lot of people wonder about Pro-vaxers.

As for Putin, is he proposing the elimination of citizens for not being willing to just take orders from Big Pharma?

[snooper2]

237. Putin is Big Pharma, I believe he is proposing elimination of anyone who disagrees with his ways

In Soviet Russia Putin on the Ritz realz

[sabrina 1]

239. So you agree then with the Pro Vaxer I responded to who proposes the elimination of those who dare

to ask questions about what Big Pharma wants to put into their children's bodies??

That's pretty extreme. But if that's your opinion, I can only hope Big Pharma, (thanks Elizabeth Warren btw, for keeping an eye on them) never gains that kind of control over the American people.

[cui bono]

257. I think this is what you're grasping for...

If you disagree with sabrina about Putin, take it up in a thread about Putin. Attacking a poster out of left field about a subject that has nothing to do with this OP is a purely emotional reaction rather than reasoned discourse. Not something becoming of a progressive/liberal, not that I'm accusing you of being either as I know there are a ton of centrists/center-right people on this board.

[sabrina 1]

292. Thank you, and since I've never voiced an opinion about Putin, and don't know this person btw, it

is clear, that not wanting War with Iran and/or Russia, as happened with Iraq, is falsely and deliberately characterized, from some War Mongering Think Tank no doubt, as being a 'Saddam Lover'/'Putin Lover'. Thankfully we all remember those talking points.

It is CREEPY to me frankly that these strangers who I do not know, are paying such close attention to my comments on this forum. Keeping track, obviously, of anyone who dares to disagree with the neocon push for more and forever war, and then deliberately stalking people who are not on board with the war mongering neocons with those talking points from the old Bush/Iraq/Neocon days.

Maybe it's time to reconsider the safety of posting here.

[HERVEPA]

208. Pure ignorance on your part.

[sabrina 1]

293. Ignorance? Regarding what?

[bbgrunt]

254. totally agree.

[cui bono]

259. Don't let people's anger repel you. Vaccines are extremely important.

However, the types of comments you responded to are beyond the pale. They are indicative of how polarized and team oriented our country has become. No persuading, no teaching, no reasoning, just fuck them those ignorant fucks. Geez.

[sabrina 1]

281. I am repelled. But not about vaccines, I am well informed on the subject, as much as anyone can be.

I am repelled by a lot of what I see lately.

The repellent comments are not about polarization on just THIS topic, they are about something else entirely and are as likely to appear in any thread about any topic.

I just like to draw attention to them wherever I find them.

They sure are not intended to do anything other than divide Democrats, on this and every other subject.

Thanks Cui Bono, I understand your point though.

[rhett o rick]

284. I am disappointed also. Thanks for putting it so well. nm

[cui bono]

286. I definitely agree with you on that.

And I appreciate all your call outs. I try to do the same when I am able.

Check out the second quote in my sig. You can rest assured that it applies to you here on DU. The more they attack you without any reasonable discourse the more you know you are on the right path.

[sabrina 1]

287. Love that quote, it is absolutely true. It doesn't bother me at all, as FDR said, 'I welcome their

hatred'. Always consider the source and yes, you know you are on the right track.

I appreciate your posts on DU too, always have ....

[NuclearDem]

265. If you're joining the anti-vaxxers, you don't give a shit about human lives.

Much less are in any sort of position to lecture anyone else on it.

I don't give a shit that people in favor of saving millions of lives have hurt a few ignorant selfish people's feelings. It's what they deserve for bringing back measles and whooping cough.

[2pooped2pop]

175. unfortunately

that wouldn't round up "all" of the assholes.

[2pooped2pop]

173. wow

yes, let's just remove all the children from the homes. Let's put them all in foster care. That will be so much better.

Wow.
If this is the way you think, I am sooooooo glad I don't know you.

[sabrina 1]

294. You're not the only one.

[cui bono]

260. I feel that way about people who refuse to see the problems with the Dem Party and its leaders,

people who just say "rah rah" for right wing policies just because a Dem enacted them. There is no way to alter their perceptions of reality. There is no way to teach them that their team sport politics are a danger to the party they purport to believe in, a danger to the very fabric of our democracy, our constitution, our country. But I don't want the apologists rounded up and put in concentration camps!

Geez.

[jberryhill]

37. Bullshit bullshit

So, you don't think that way, but you are a social psychic?

I'm sorry but when I was a kid there were television commercials with doctors extolling the virtues of cigarettes, and sending thousands of tiny time capsules into whatever organ ailed you.

[dissentient]

44. It doesn't take a psychic to see that some folks make this connection

Our society is inundated with commercials like the ones I mentioned, and the latest miracle drugs to sell us that will fix us up to the point of feeling like an 18 year old again, despite how old we may be.

I think the OP is spot on in his analysis.

If that makes me and the OP psychic, I don't know what to say. To me it seems like common sense.

[Chemisse]

136. When you look at an issue dispassionately

It's amazing what you can figure out about people's trains of thinking.

[Chemisse]

135. But once people become suspicious

They question everything.

I really see this as the root cause (suspicion and distrust).

[Trekologer]

160. The vaccines simply as profit to PhRMA is a ludicrous conclusion

First of all pharmaceutical companies don't make a lot of profit off of childhood vaccines. Secondly, if it is a profit motivated push for vaccination, there is vastly more profit in patients taking a pill a day for a long time to treat a chronic than 1 shot in childhood. You could say that vaccines take away future profit because they prevent disease that needs treatment in the first place.

All it takes is a little critical thinking to destroy the idea altogether.

[fried eggs]

7. Good luck! eom

[pkdu]

8. Wow....you only thought you might be digressing by end of Point 8?.....

Watch a rerun of Rachel Maddow from this evening. You will see why us " with Pitchforks" are pissed at the anti-vaxers

[whereisjustice]

25. I'm not anti-vax, but you'll just alienate anti-vaxers without acknowledging where

the fear is coming from. The US has let this get out of control due to lack of proper public education campaign.

Name calling won't help. These aren't all your typical teabagger types.

[MohRokTah]

156. Actually considering what anti-vaxxers have to say has made the problem WORSE.

There are no legitimate reasons to be anti-vaxxer and the time to talk has long since passed.

[Bettie]

200. Simply saying that you vaccinate your kids to an anti-vaxer

is enough to alienate them.

Name calling might not help, but these are not people who are willing to consider any viewpoint but their own, no matter how much evidence is put before them. Actually, they are a lot like teabaggers in that sense.

[jberryhill]

9. Fuck Rand Paul

[whereisjustice]

58. ?

[rpannier]

116. Rand Paul was interviewed on CNN

He was pushing his anti-vaccination nonsense

on edit: You'd have to see the video to appreciate it. I think Crooksandliars has it on their site
He acts like an ass

[Liberalynn]

241. I wouldn't want to.

But I do agree he is one of the biggest jerks ever born.

[Bonobo]

10. America is not a nation with a sweet, benevolent government. There is a lot of distrust.

There are SCORES of reason for this and I agree it is important to consider the causes.

Have a look at a country where the government provides services compensatory with the taxes forced from its citizens. They do not have this type of problem.

Basically when you have a poor relationship between the govt. and the citizens, you can expect this. That is what we are talking about.

Having said that, if you choose to not be inoculated against dangerous diseases, you have no right to expect to participate in the other features of the "Common" that come either. For example public school. I don't feel comfortable forcing people to take a medicine they don't want to take, but at the same time don't feel that a school system should have to take kids that threaten the health of others.

[NYC_SKP]

11. Would you be interested in a recipe for cornflake doused fried chicken?

Or a treatise on chemtrails, or building 7.

I'm with you, but just because this is an ostensibly Democratic and progressive board does not mean that all ideas will be embraced for discussion.

The government, or government and probably all governments, do evil things.

I might be in the minority here, but I don't trust the government.

To expound on my observation, many here don't trust the government when it comes to oil exploration policy or fracking, yet would be happy to turn over their second amendment rights.

For me, it does not compute.

[Act_of_Reparation]

15. Then don't listen to the government.

Listen to the literally thousands of peer-reviewed academic publications proclaiming the effectiveness and safety of vaccines.

Oh, let me guess... they're bought

[whereisjustice]

30. Yelling "burn the witch" really isn't going to get more people vaccinated, that's for sure

understanding and then properly dealing with the root cause will.

[MohRokTah]

157. Yes, it will.

People are waking up to the anti-vaxxer bullshit actually being criminal child neglect. Laws will be changed and CPS will remove children from the homes of the antivaxxers and get them vaccinated.

Problem solved and child abusers will no longer be able to abuse their children.

[ann---]

127. Doctors who are

not in the "government" know how much vaccinations have helped to save lives.

[Act_of_Reparation]

12. No.

Fuck that.

None of those items speak, in any way, to the scientific consensus on vaccination. If someone concludes, vis-a-vis the business practices of Big Pharma, that vaccines do not work, are dangerous, or cause disease, then the problem is irrational belief. If you know of a reliable means to cure that problem, feel free to drop by the Atheists and Agnostics group. We could use a few pointers.

[jberryhill]

17. Precisely

Rationalizing paranoia with the Tuskeegee Experiment, and failing to notice the utter lack of kids crippled from polio takes a huge amount of forest-missing.

[whereisjustice]

32. Yes> And I do. And I know it worked. Because I am old enough to have

remember in 1960s very public campaigns for vaccination - TV, radio, print etc.

The were very effective.

Unlike today - where you see nothing but ads for viagra and weird drugs for IBS or depression that cause tuberculous or liver failure.

[Act_of_Reparation]

213. I'll tell you what:

Find an anti-vaxxer. Explain to them, in plain language, the merits of vaccination. Let me know how that works out for you.

Arguing against these clowns is like arguing against anyone with paranoid fantasies. They've made their minds up; any evidence to the contrary is dismissed as "bought" or "biased" or just another part of the conspiracy. These people are fucking hopeless. Our only recourse at this point is to make sure the next generation is adequately informed at a young age.

[whereisjustice]

271. But you are not thinking of the differential effect - the important part is making sure

that people have a choice of information. The battle won't be won by "converting" anti-vax people. The battle will be won by convincing the people who are inclined to get vaccines that they are doing the right thing by backing them up and supporting them and their belief system.


That takes good public service. Now on to the next problem - corporate capture of government. Such a public service campaign may not be possible because we would demand that industry be involved with incentives, tax credits and etc.

But PhARMA HATES vaccines because it is low money compared to design tweaks on drugs they own patents on.

It's not a simple problem, but if you let the anti-vax people get control of the message like the tea baggers it will just make things worse.

I say the same thing about the Democratic Party refusing to embrace a populist message. This thrid way, neo-lib, depending on the kindness of corporations shit is really fucking things up.

[SidDithers]

13. Anti-vaxxers at DU should be banned...

the same way chemtrailers get banned.

'Course, we all know that many posters who get banned sneak back in with zombie accounts, but banning anti-vax asshats would at least send the message that their bullshit isn't welcome at DU.

Sid

[MohRokTah]

18. +1,000,000,000,000

Anti-vaxxers should be completely removed from society because they are the most anti-social people in existence.

Vaccinate or isolate. There are no other choices.

[whereisjustice]

35. lol - like someone coming back from Africa, due to Ebola risk? hahahahahahah

anyone else you want to put in concentration camps?

[Art_from_Ark]

114. The "isolation from society" attitude is downright creepy

[Historic NY]

153. Do you think so......

it was the only acceptable treatment at the turn of the 20th century. The population being swelled with immigrants coming here with untold diseases that weren't caught at the point of debarkation. The funny thing is today we still use this common sense technique with animals being brought (imported) here. Quarantine was the only acceptable method of treatment to protect others, from those who won't protect themselves.

[Art_from_Ark]

279. Perhaps a little context to what my comment was based on would help

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026171864#post23

[NuclearDem]

217. Funny, you know how Ebola didn't spread in the US?

Because people infected with it were quarantined and treated until they either tragically died or were declared free of the virus.

Not helping your case.

[2pooped2pop]

186. u might be looking a little anti social

urself there Mr. Banthemallfromsociety.

[NuclearDem]

26. Yep. DU shouldn't be giving a platform for these idiots.

[leftofcool]

124. Oh for the good ole days...........

When other Dems could post their own opinions and no one got banned for bad ideas or thinking.

[SidDithers]

143. Lots of opinions will get you banned...

The TOS lists all kinds of opinions that will get you banned. Why do you think anti-vax nonsense should be any more acceptable at DU than chemtrail nonsense or Illuminati nonsense?

Maybe you don't think it's nonsense?

Sid

[leftofcool]

148. The last time I checked

The discussion of why people do not vaccinate their children has no roots in racism or bigotry and unlike chemtrails it is a valid problem that should be discussed. Banning people for discussing a valid/real issue will not solve the problem. Neither will name calling.

[J_J_]

227. +1000000

"Banning people for discussing a valid/real issue will not solve the problem"

It would be wise to question those who are pushing such Fascist tactics

[SidDithers]

274. Banned people keep coming back..

They're like thr ghost of Huey Long.

Sid

[2pooped2pop]

187. +1000 n/t

[treestar]

177. Or at least sent to the dungeon

Good grief, talk about the crazy.

[SidDithers]

178. Yup. The dungeon, or the astrology, crystals and moon-bombing group...nt

Sid

[Crunchy Frog]

243. So should gunners.

Their "proclivities" kill more people than anti-vaxxers do.

And just to clarify, I'm not an anti-vaxxer, but I think this lynch mob mentality is counterproductive and is making DU look extremely ugly.

[Agnosticsherbet]

20. Anti-intellectualism is the root cause anti-vaxxers, mixed with more than a modicum of ignorance.

[whereisjustice]

267. Sorry, you are wrong: dont-call-them-dumb-experts-fighting-anti-vaccine-movement

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/measles-outbreak/dont-call-them-dumb-experts-fighting-anti-vaccine-movement-n298956

"When you attack somebody's values, they get defensive," said risk communication expert David Ropeik. "It triggers an instinctive defensiveness that certainly doesn't change the mind of the vaccine-hesistant person."

And some of the criticism on cable television, social media and in mainstream newspapers and magazines is starting to look like bullying, Ropeik and other experts said.

"When they get defensive they carry their campaign more fervently and that has the chance of poisoning other people."

"When they get defensive they carry their campaign more fervently, and that has the chance of poisoning other people," said Ropeik.

"There are millions of people who are ambivalent to some degree. When they hear the people being picked on defend their views, that has the real prospect of turning some of those people against vaccines."

Furthermore, it is becoming a problem in well-educated, rich pockets where super moms & dads are trying to raise super children free from chemical rich environments that they most likely directly or indirectly exploited/created to achieve their own wealth.

Too many rich really do believe they are exceptional and entitled in all regards.

[sabrina 1]

22. The only place anyone is going to tell you have blood on your hands for being rational, appears to

be right here on DU. In RL, it is a different WORLD.

Big Pharma, among the most corrupt organizations in the world.

Every day on TV, I've been trying to keep track, we see ads 'if you have ever taken the drug (fill in the blank) and have suffered the following (fill in the blank all the way to DEATH) please call (phone number). A settlement has been made with (name of Phara Corp) in the amount of (up to billions) for the damage including death (if the person using the drug has died, and you are the next of kin, please call).

Right after those ads, we are treated to the other ones: 'If you suffer from (fill in some kind of whatever) talk to your doctor about (fill in drug). Scrawling across the bottom of the screen are a list of ailments, including DEATH, that you risk should you take this drug.

BUT, happy music, loving couple, strange women prancing around, beautiful scenery etc, joyous ailment free people, create images directly contradicting the warnings scrolling across the bottom of the screen. We have made a game out of these ads. Just read the warnings, ignore all the 'entertainment', and then ask yourself, why do Americans need so many drugs to get through each day?

[whereisjustice]

27. I think I'm supposed to call my Dr. if I experience symptoms of tuberculosis or liver failure... lol

[sabrina 1]

47. Or if you DIE! Lol. 'Call your doctor if you experience any of the following side effects, strange

dreams, blurred vision, sudden deafness, fever of 105 or over, or death!! I think they got so many calls asking how on earth you are supposed to call your doctor if you're dead, that they now say 'if you have a relative who has died'.

Btw, what are 'strange dreams'?? They never tell you that. All my dreams are strange and I've never taken a drug, legal or illegal, in my life. Lol!

It's hilarious, we must be the sickest country in the history of the world if you believe all these ads flooding the airwaves.

[Art_from_Ark]

115. Or erections lasting longer than 4 hours

[Chemisse]

137. I think I must be the only one juvenile enough to find that funny.

[Jamastiene]

155. No, you're not.

[MohRokTah]

28. Anti-vaxxers must be ejected from society.

Their behavior is so anti-social, the only answer is complete isolation from all human contact.

[sabrina 1]

36. Hey, let's put moms in jail for being concerned about what they put in their children's bodies.

Never QUESTION! Just do as you're told. Government tells you to take a pill, just swallow it.

The Prison Industrial Complex needs MORE slave labor!!

What a GREAT idea, why didn't I think of it?

Anyone else you'd like to eliminate from society? A bit extreme the pro-vaxers are getting, almost like a cult at this point. Scary stuff.

[NuclearDem]

39. I'm so happy the internet didn't exist during the smallpox vaccination campaign.

Because it's people like you that would have kept that damned plague alive to this day.

[whereisjustice]

50. some regular extremists here are incapable of discussion, they've already called me a killer :)

[sabrina 1]

64. Just consider the sources when ever that happens, that is what I do.

It works beautifully. I wouldn't worry about it, you can't discuss anything rationally with extremists, no point wasting time trying.

[G_j]

192. you are correct

for the most part, it's the same people who can't seem to dicuss anything without heaping distain on others. For those people, the subject hardly matters, they are usually here yelling at someone or another.

[MohRokTah]

147. There are NO reasonable concerns about vaccines.

NONE!

[HappyMe]

152. No need to put them in jail.

They should home school their little petri dishes and wear hazmat suits in public.

http://hazmat-suit.com/ebola-hazmat-suit/


Since they have NO concern for anybody else, they can walk around in a hazmat suit to protect those that are vulnerable FROM THEM.

[treestar]

188. Most are concerned about what can get into their children's bodies in the form of a deadly disease

Which makes a lot more sense to worry about.

Plenty of mothers who lost children in previous centuries would have killed to have those pills.

This is one of the prime reasons for government. Even Libertarians will admit we can't let people chose to expose us to deadly contagious diseases.

[sabrina 1]

238. My response was to the pro-vaxer who advocates eliminating people for daring to ask questions

before deciding something is not going to harm their children. Do YOU think such individuals should be eliminated? Your post had nothing to do with the conversation at all.

Eliminating anyone who questions was the conversation. Do YOU support that, if not your comment isn't relevant at all to my response to such extremism from a Pro Vaxer.

[haikugal]

255. No one said eliminate them

Isolate them, which has proven to be a correct medical judgement in times past. Please stop.

[treestar]

291. What do you mean eliminating them?

From DU or the GD?

Most people have the brains to weigh whatever disadvantages vaccines have with the advantages.

[msanthrope]

234. Why am I not surprised at your stance? nt

[leftofcool]

125. Any other anti-social people you want to get rid of?

How about the Amish? They aren't very social and many do not vaccinate their kids. Where should we send them?

[MohRokTah]

149. We already lock up criminals, so other than dangerous anti-vaxxers who are standing in the way of...

the eradication of horrible deadly diseases, I can't think of any.

[Sheldon Cooper]

225. Performance art, at it's best.

:slow clap:

[dissentient]

29. +1000 Yep, people are bombarded with these ads, literally.

You described it perfectly.

[NuclearDem]

33. Translation: Big Pharma mercury sheeple argle bargle.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

179. While I appreciate what you say

I think it's a bit tangential to a discussion of vaccinations to prevent the transmission of disease, rather than medications designed to treat symptoms of chronic conditions. We don't 'spread' obesity or high cholesterol or asthma or the vast majority of conditions most meds are created to act upon chemically. (Although we might 'spread' some of them socially, by overfeeding those for whom we cook.)

As to your last question? Because we (humans) use a lot of technologies we develop long before we understand the biological implications of using them. We poison ourselves on a daily basis, and it tends to take us decades of use before we realize that the use of 'chemical X' as a pesticide or in a can lining, or the coating on a 'nonstick pan' or in carpeting or whatever is contributing to the growing number of cases of 'ailment Y'. And because rather than try to return to living in a way that limits our exposure to the plethora of new and unnatural (in the sense that they don't exist until we synthesize them, not in some 'spooky' way) chemicals allowed to be placed in consumer goods and the food supply, and try to live in (more physical) ways our bodies were more designed for, we look for a 'quick fix' in pill form.

[treestar]

181. so?

Dumb ads for those drugs don't undo the fact that many drugs cure diseases and problems. I have three conditions right now that are under control due to a drug. I'm not giving that up to suffer because "Big Pharma is one of the most corrupt organizations in the world."

[NuclearDem]

24. Actually, the root cause was an unbelievably fraudulent study pushed by an idiot

who has since lost his license.

With plenty of scientific illiteracy in this country to make things worse.

[Wgles]

250. Yes!

This is a very important point that has been omitted.

[Spider Jerusalem]

31. Those are not the root causes of the anti-vax problem.

The root cause of the anti-vax problem is a long-since debunked and withdrawn paper by one Andrew Wakefield (who was also disciplined by the General Medical Council and struck off the medical register) that purported to show a link between vaccination, specifically MMR, and autism.

[whereisjustice]

38. yes- I am aware of that, but what you neglect is that most people didn't know

mercury was in the shot. Once that was learned, it didn't matter. This is a more complex problem than just yelling "anti-vax witch"

[NuclearDem]

41. Ethylmercury != methylmercury

[whereisjustice]

79. it doesn't matter, the damage was done, you either fix it or deal with the

consequences of not doing what people want and they don't want anything with the word mercury in it.

And as I posted below- I put most of the problem on #1 and #2. The mercury is just giving anti-vax people more leverage. Take it away and they've got one less excuse. That seems to be worth funding as part of public health policy.

"President Obama announced today the budget will contain $15,000,000 to fund new vaccination health initiative to include radio and tv spots and research money for vaccine development"

But that still doesn't solve the out of pocket expenses:

Vaccination prices have gone from single digits to sometimes triple digits in the last two decades, creating dilemmas for doctors and their patients as well as straining public health budgets. Here in San Antonio and elsewhere, some doctors have stopped offering immunizations because they say they cannot afford to buy these potentially lifesaving preventive treatments that insurers often reimburse poorly, sometimes even at a loss.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/health/Vaccine-Costs-Soaring-Paying-Till-It-Hurts.html?_r=0

[NuclearDem]

85. Yes, let's surrender to people's ignorance.

Fantastic idea.

You've got to be kidding me with this shit.

[whereisjustice]

108. You'd rather stick with technology developed in 1920s that freaks people out?

You already lost this.

[NuclearDem]

220. Dihydrogen monoxide freaks people out too.

Do you think we should stop using it too? I mean, it does cause severe burns, is used as a fire retardant, is used in nuclear reactors, and can cause death in humans.

[Spider Jerusalem]

43. Except it wasn't.

The MMR vaccine never contained thimerosal.

[Chemisse]

138. Once the trust is shaken, it's hard to get it back.

And THAT is the underlying cause of all this.

[haikugal]

256. And just who shook that trust?

The scaremongering anti-science people...fear, fear, all the time fear. Remember them? There is NO evidence that immunizations cause harm except very occasionally and that's the risk we all take to keep our society as healthy as possible. Rational discussion and presentation of facts does nothing to persuade fear mongers. It's as futile as arguing religion with a fundy except this is our health and safety we're talking about.

[Chemisse]

258. Does it really matter now?

It's time to start addressing this problem rather than lamenting its existence.

[haikugal]

262. I'm seeing that and

Those who keep whining about pitchforks because they don't like the "tone" of discussion. Why doesn't matter anymore, we're past that. We need to immunize our people, children and adults both.

[SidDithers]

168. And apparently some people don't know that mercury wasn't in the shot...

Wakefield's original contention was that it was the MMR vaccine itself that was linked to Autism.

When that proved to be false, the anti-vax asshats moved onto another target - thiomerosal.

And once that was proven to be false, their target is now vaccine adjuvants - because Aluminum!!


Anti-vax asshats are like climate change deniers, or chemtrailers, or UFOlogists.

And they, like third-party advocates, should be banned, and stay banned, from DU.

Sid

[fried eggs]

40. His study would have never gained traction without a skyrocketing autism rate

1 in 28 boys. At the end of the day, something in our environment... something that is considered safe right now is contributing to the soaring numbers. Perhaps a combination of factors. Cell phones? wifi? pesticides? Monsanto?

[NuclearDem]

42. ...or an expanded definition of autism.

Which is what actually caused the diagnosis numbers to skyrocket.

[fried eggs]

60. I don't know if you're intentionally minimizing it or

what... Do you really think a 30% increase in students in special education is due to reclassification of nerds and awkward people to autistic? And regardless, 1 and 28 boys is too fucking high considering the lack of resources and funding for kids with special needs. Hopefully we can agree on that!?

The lifetime cost for an individual averages $2.4 million when autism involves intellectual disability and $1.4 million when it does not. An estimated 40 percent of individuals with autism also have intellectual disability.

http://www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/lifetime-costs-autism-average-millions

[NuclearDem]

72. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Nor any knowledge of the history of autism.

We're done here, this is an utter waste of my time.

[fried eggs]

94. Yes, we're done. You have no correct info

just one sided debate and insults.

[Spider Jerusalem]

46. Or maybe it's organic food!

Correlation is not causation.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

182. I certainly hope the person who put that graphic together

also was using it sarcastically, and not as 'proof' of the title of the graph.

[TransitJohn]

67. Good christ, reall? Wifi and cell phones?

You are anti-science. That clinched it. Or you're playing a long and good game of trolling.

[fried eggs]

93. Are you serious? Asking questions

about what could be behind the skyrocketing autism rate in the US is trolling? Make no mistake, I love my phone and my wifi, but I'm not afraid to question everything. Your reluctance to do so makes you seem sheep like.

[Chemisse]

139. There is a reason. It's just a matter of finding it.

And you don't find it without questioning all the other things that have changed over that time period.

[hack89]

172. No point in asking questions when you refuse to accept the answers. nt

[snooper2]

203. Autism rates started going up high when Hyundai started selling cars in the US, 1986.

It is something coming from SOUTH KOREA!

They are trying to kill off everyone to have automotive dominance!


THE BASTARDS!

[TransitJohn]

266. Well, sheep like or just someone who knows what the electromagnetic spectrum is, and various parts

of it can affect biological tissue. Take your pick.

[rpannier]

117. Could also be our understanding of autism is getting better

What we consider to be autism today may not be what we thought 40 years ago

[msongs]

34. most dangerous part of vaccines is the drive to the doctor's office. let the antis pray away their

illnesses is ok with me, just keep their sick kids at home

[whereisjustice]

45. 50,000+ dead from flu and pneumonia in US/year - and the sick will go to work

because if they don't serve up your burgers, they'll be fired.

If you want to solve the problem, you can't just wave sticks around at random.

We force people to work with they are sick.

And we force kids to go to school when they are sick - state funding mandates require attendance. Letters go out to parents asking them to send kids to school unless they have high fever, diagnosed flu, etc.

[DonCoquixote]

52. and that has nothign to do

with childhood vaccinations that have made diseases like Polio almost an artifact form the past. Children can and should get a level of protection that accounts for the fact they cannot make decisions for themselves.

For what it is worth, sinc eyou mentioned the flu, I would glaldy make Flu Vaccine every bit as mandatory, paid for by a real socialist medical policy. If companies were smart, they would support it because they would more than make up the profots from less sick days.

[whereisjustice]

55. Yes it does, It has everything to do with it. Companies won't vaccinate employees and they force

them to work sick. What sort of message does that send?

[DonCoquixote]

66. we are talking about CHILDREN

who have been saved from diseases that used to kill lots of children, but do not anymore. To demonize childhood vaccines, is to demonize the flu vaccines, which is to say "there is no group delivered solution to health care" and who do you think is rubbing theuir paws at the idea that even liberals will stop believing that the government has a right to demand that children have a right to certain standard medical care?

[whereisjustice]

89. Well here's another fact, the measles vaccine I was given as child was not effective as expected

I found out only because of my requirements for travel and it took a bunch of hard research.

I am laughing because the "burn the witch" types on this thread are probably aware of this fact and never got the updated shot. So they fell into the vaccine gap.

I guarantee it.

It's not a small amount, numbers millions.

1. Problem: people not getting vaccine
2. Solutions:
a. yell at them and call them names and call for them to be put in concentration camps
b. start a smart, aggressive public campaign on benefits of vaccination

b. requires intelligence to fully understand what the problem is so it can be address in a campaign.

a? Not so much.

[DonCoquixote]

98. B: public campaigns

will require a belief in provable data, somethign the anti vax crowd does not want. if they did, they would simply ask the anti vax doctors "er , what actually causes autism?" and the matter would end right there as the anti vaxer could not produce ONE bit of information. If you wanht that smart, agressive public cpampisgn, you need peopel to actually be smart, or at leats get them to ask "what is it about these vaccines that supposedly cause autism?"

[Chemisse]

140. Adults have every right to say no to the flu shot.

As I do every year.

I've only had the flu once - maybe twice - and that was over 20 years ago. And I work in a school.

I have all the other vaccines, such as for pneumonia, but I don't want the flu shot.

[napi21]

77. By far, the majority of people who die from the flu & pneumonia are the elder4ly & already sick.

The older you get, the lower your resistance to viruses and other illnesses. When someone whose resistance is very low already and they contract the flu, their body can't fight it off and they get pneumonia and die. The same with people who are taking Immunosuppression drugs are also extremely susceptible to many illness, and so are very young infants because their immune system isn't developed yet.

Most of those who die do not do so because they went to work or school sick!

[whereisjustice]

80. Look, you go to work with the flu and see how much you get done, and then when

you give it to someone else they eventually give it to someone who gives it an elderly person, etc.

And even tho there isn't death - the total costs are high because flu puts most people down hard for up to two weeks.

[DonCoquixote]

48. ok, let's grant some points

Yes, Big Pharma is evil, and yes they have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar way too often, with consqiuences of death. However, Vaccines are one part of the medicine equation that has been tested throughly, and whose results have been proven for the past 30 years. The fear of vaccines is based on ideas NOT proven, and also, a very ugly fear of Autism, something whose causes have NOT been established at all. There are many who have ideas, wishes, but zero proof of what actually causes Autism at all, much less the idea that Vaccines have anything to do with it.

It is one thing to be a concerned parent, but when you risk other children's lives because of something you cannot prove, you are a threat to others. That fact is true regardless of Big Pharma. In nations that do not have Big Pharma, let's say Cuba (where kids have been proven to get superior medical treatment, sad to say) do you think that they would allow children not to be vaccinated? No...because they understand that there has to be a standard of health for children, and that aprents do not have the right to deny medical care because of something that is NOT proven.

[whereisjustice]

57. Again - it comes down to trust. If the government is worried, they'll win trust not by yelling witch

but by a slow and steady campaign on TV, radio, etc with facts and data.

Showing the President and his kids getting shots, whatever it takes.

That is EXACTLY what they used to do in 1960s. Now, it's nothing but viagra ads.

[DonCoquixote]

70. do you really think

that the folks doing viagra ads will nto shout down the government. We have HAD 30 years of facts and data, none of which supports ANY claim that the anti-vax crowd had. Vaccinations have been one fo the most proven medcinces out there, yet somehow people do not question why the christ Christies and Rand Pauls and Mike Huckabees and Glenn Becks are the people stirring this pot?

[frazzled]

49. Oh wow, I don't think you are helping your cause

Really, you're going to throw in the Tuskegee syphilis experiments into your paranoical list of things to mistrust with respect to common public-health practices in this country—measles vaccines among them? Have you ever looked around at the hundreds of millions of people who have been vaccinated over the past 50-75 years for various diseases and asked how many died from those vaccines as compared to how many died before there were vaccines to reduce disease? I think you know the answer.

The history of vaccines goes back to the 1880s—farther even: the first smallpox vaccine was invented in 1796. We've completely eradicated smallpox, saving 5 million lives per year. And nearly eradicated diphtheria and polio, saving hundreds of thousands of lives per year. (See charts and statistics at http://www.unicef.org/pon96/hevaccin.htm)

Here's something to ponder: The CDC announced the first national measles eradication campaign way back in 1966. Within 2 years, measles incidence had decreased by more than 90% compared with prevaccine-era levels. See: http://www.immunize.org/timeline/

Measles currently kills 1.1 million children world-wide. Isn't that what should worry you more? Doesn't it scare you?

Being "overmedicated" has nothing to do with vaccinations. Vaccination isn't about personal health anyway: it's about societal health. It's about community. It's what liberal societies believe in.

Sorry, trying to "understand" why anti-vaxxers might be paranoid about vaccines is a fool's errand. And it doesn't make them right one little bit. It's like saying you can understand why Tea Party Republicans think the way they do. Well, they're still mistaken and wrong.

[whereisjustice]

54. You are preaching to the choir - the problem is, you haven't figured out how to win trust

it isn't a fools errand. You cannot win a campaign without understanding your opponent. I put out what I know to be discussed in general media.

Smart people know how to put what I documented into a rationale campaign to counter fear. As a society, we are failing at that. Hence the anti-vax movement.

I'll go further and say as government continues to distance itself from citizens well being, this problem will get worse, not better.

It's a problem of our own making, like it or not.

[frazzled]

71. I think the problem is much more culturally based

Part of it has to do with a resurgence of quasi-libertarian attitudes. A lot of it has to do with all kinds of whack ideas about food (I know people will come charging at me for saying this, but I'm sticking to my guns): just look at the crazy ideas that have spread like wildfire regarding gluten. Our groceries are stocked with gluten-free this and that, and restaurants tout gluten-free items on their menus (hello: yeah, brussels sprouts are gluten free). In reality, there is nothing the fuck wrong with gluten, except for a rather minuscule minority of the population with celiac disease. In fact, not eating gluten can be somewhat deleterious. There are no benefits to not eating gluten. But it's a rage.

We need a second Englightenment. I just happen to believe that trying to dissuade people from their beliefs never works. You must just go on by example trying to lead an enlightened life and hope others will follow eventually.

[nashville_brook]

194. maybe ironic that your sigline says "women should be able to make their own healthcare decisions"

[frazzled]

245. It's ironic that you don't see the difference between

a public health issue such as vaccination and a private decision to carry a pregnancy to term or not. One involves a scientific effort to curb the spread of disease. The other is a theological movement intended to force beliefs on individuals. Not at all the same.

Indeed, the role of the personal and the public is reversed in the case of abortion. Outlawing abortion (because of "beliefs," not public policy based on any kind of science) is a danger to the public good: unwanted children often become a burden to society.

[Man from Pickens]

51. I'm finding all the vaccine hysteria amusing

What happened that is so important that suddenly vaccines are a major fire-breathing priority for some people?

Also amusing is seeing the word "science" being bandied about as eternal, immutable dogma - if you know anything at all about science, it's that the latest and greatest conclusions from the top minds in the field are often completely wrong, and medicine may be more affected by this phenomenon than any other industry.

Let me add to the list of items that found a valid skepticism:
- the CIA's fake vaccination program
- Tuskeegee syphillis experiment
- same guys who are selling this stuff to you one day are somehow heading the regulatory process the next day

[NuclearDem]

56. Measles was eradicated in the US fifteen years ago.

Now there are 100+ cases in 14 states, because people refuse to vaccinate against it.

Also amusing is seeing the word "science" being bandied about as eternal, immutable dogma

Complete nonsense. The scientific method is the best means we have for understanding how the world works; it is not "dogma."

if you know anything at all about science, it's that the latest and greatest conclusions from the top minds in the field are often completely wrong

Also complete nonsense and not even worth touching on, as it borders on creationist level of science denial.

- the CIA's fake vaccination program
- Tuskeegee syphillis experiment
- same guys who are selling this stuff to you one day are somehow heading the regulatory process the next day

...all of which are utterly fucking irrelevant in the context of the MMR vaccine and autism. Wakefield's study was utterly fraudulent. End of story.

[Man from Pickens]

61. whoah slow down there

Let's take this one at a time.

"Now there are 100+ cases in 14 states, because people refuse to vaccinate against it. "

What scientific evidence are you basing that conclusion on?

[NuclearDem]

68. There wouldn't have been an outbreak period if people had been getting vaccinated.

And since the highest concentration of these outbreaks are in places like Orange County where the vaccination rate is significantly lower than the rest of the state, that only further confirms that anti-vaxxers are to blame for this nonsense.

[Man from Pickens]

73. That doesn't logically follow

That's a second unfounded assertion, that the anti-vaxxers are to blame for a low vaccination rate. Where's the scientific evidence to back that up?

You are attempting to take a scientific position on the issue, right? Where's the science you are relying on for these key statements that form your position?

[NuclearDem]

76. You're kidding me, right?

Anti-vaccination has nothing to do with lower vaccination rates?



Fuck this, I'm done.

[Man from Pickens]

78. Not even slightly

You want the mantle of science, embrace it. Otherwise feel free to admit that your position is founded on something other than actual science - regardless of whether the word "science" is what you choose to describe your own articles of faith.

If this was really about science, then my questions would neither annoy you nor be difficult to answer.

[NuclearDem]

82. No, this has been discussed, discussed, and discussed again.

People completely failing to grasp the concept of herd immunity in favor of pushing their completely ill-informed anti-Big Pharma agenda are making excuses for irresponsible jackasses who endanger everyone with their selfish bullshit.

I've had enough of explaining it. This has already been discussed to death here, there's a wealth of material for you to read. You clearly have absolutely no idea how the scientific method, so your sudden demand for scientific evidence is completely disingenuous.

I'm done.

[Man from Pickens]

88. None of that is relevant to my questions

Why would a demand for scientific evidence from people who insist their position is based in science be considered in anyway unreasonable?

So far this is where we're at:

You: "My position is grounded in science. If you don't agree you're a science denier."
Me: "If your position is grounded in science, great! I'd like a look. What ya got?"
You: "It's disingenuous to ask me for the science behind my position."
Me: "But you just insisted your position was grounded in science. What's the problem with showing your source?"
You: "Herd immunity! Irresponsible! Dangerous! Selfish Bullshit!"
Me: "I'm sorry, but wtf does that have to do with the conversation we were having?" <---- YOU ARE HERE

Please feel free to redirect the conversation down a path that sane people would recognize...

[elias7]

122. Wow, you really are gifted at mischaracterization

I think your thinking is very confused, dressed up in all sorts of pat nonsense and insults

[SidDithers]

170. It's funny when anti-vaxxers go on and on about scientific evidence...

but don't trust the hugely overwhelming scientific evidence that shows vaccines are safe and effective.

Dumbasses.

Sid

[CanSocDem]

204. It's even funnier...

....when science types use the philosophy of the church to back their claims.

But we know that only Americans and conservatives, on this entire planet, have the inability to grasp irony.




.

[SidDithers]

207. Oh, good. More of the woo crowd checking in...

Sid

[Jamastiene]

163. You are kidding, right?

Pro-vaxxers are getting our vaccinations. The only people left who are responsible for a low vaccination rate are anti-vaxxers. That's just common sense.

[jeff47]

215. You are not actually asking questions.

You are flailing about because you have nothing to base your conclusions on.

We know the measles part of the MMR vaccine is 98% effective. We know that herd immunity eliminates measles from the population when the vaccination rate is above 90%. We used to have that vaccination rate, and there were zero cases of measles in the US.

We no longer have that vaccination rate, and we have a measles outbreak. We are utterly, completely, 100% certain that this is due to the efforts of anti-vaxxers. This is as established as "Humans breathe air".

Questioning it doesn't mean you're being scientific. It means you're being a moron who's doing what you think is scientific in an attempt to protect your beliefs.

[SidDithers]

59. What happened? A fucking measles outbreak at Disneyland...

That's what happened.



Sid

[Man from Pickens]

62. and?

is the world ending or something?

[Hassin Bin Sober]

111. Probably for a few kids, yes.

[rpannier]

118. The one's who die, will die...

Kind of did end for them and their loved ones

[bhikkhu]

69. The possibility of measles returning as an endemic disease in the US is what's at stake

And I can say, I've been vaccinated and my kids have been vaccinated, and I don't know any anti-vaxxers personally, so its not so much about me. But its the appearance of random stupidity leading to a real and potentially permanent setback in public health that's hard to take.

for the stupid, though a yearly deathcount if this keeps up would be more like

[whereisjustice]

63. The problem is the Govt. stopped funding public awareness and costs have skyrocketed

in 1960s there used to be constant PSAs on TV radio, in magazines etc and shots were cheap.

Last ones I got for travel were well over $100. 5 years ago same ones were $25.

People are not making more money and costs have gone up.

[whereisjustice]

65. As part of reasons number 1 & 2 here is a good NYT article

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/03/health/Vaccine-Costs-Soaring-Paying-Till-It-Hurts.html?_r=0

Vaccination prices have gone from single digits to sometimes triple digits in the last two decades, creating dilemmas for doctors and their patients as well as straining public health budgets. Here in San Antonio and elsewhere, some doctors have stopped offering immunizations because they say they cannot afford to buy these potentially lifesaving preventive treatments that insurers often reimburse poorly, sometimes even at a loss.

[SunSeeker]

87. The ACA REQUIRES all healthcare plans to provide immunizations without a copay.

In fact, all preventive care is now without copay, including colonoscopies.

The parents who are not immunizing their kids ARE NOT driven by cost of the vaccines. They tend to be the better off among us. Orange County, California is ground zero of the anti-vax idiocy, whereas Mississippi has the highest vaccination rates.

I think the Rude Pundit did a much better job than the OP of explaining anti-vaxxers:

Refusing to get your children immunized against measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, whooping cough, hepatitis, diphtheria, fuckin' polio, and other nasty shit is one of the great expressions of bourgeois decadence in the latter days of this dying empire. It is a ludicrous convergence of voodoo-like pseudoscience, worship of individuality, and selfish helicopter parenting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026168192

[Bluenorthwest]

166. Mississippi and West Virginia, are the only two States that do not allow religious exemption from

vaccination. That's why they have higher rates of vaccination than other States.

[SunSeeker]

247. So money is not the reason, which is my point. nt

[Ykcutnek]

74. Nah. One of this nation's biggest problems is too much discussion and not enough pitchforks.

Debates rage over issues that shouldn't even be issues.

Fuck that.

Science trumps what these morons "feel" about things.

[whereisjustice]

84. Except in the 1960s it was very common to see PSAs on TV and radio

to get immunized. That's gone now. Also - some shots are $100. Same shot 20 years ago might have been $10.

It all starts at the top. One thing I do remember from 1960s was much greater public awareness of vaccine as public health issue

aka socialized medicine.

[DonCoquixote]

83. BIG PHARMA

Let me ask you then in palce liek Cuba, where big pharma is NOT a problem, what do you think would happen to people that refused vaccines.

There is a reaosn why Cuba's infant mortality rate is less than ours. You cannot compare Viagra to a childhood vaccine. As far as education cpampgins, that will only be done with a govt that is actually allowed to INTRUDE between child and parent, ask aTeacher about that, but then again teachers are just evil govt employyes no one trusts either

[JDPriestly]

86. There is one word for it, IGNORANCE, and while most of the ignorance and thoughtlessness

is on the part of the anti-vax crowd, some of it is as you point out on the parts of the pharmaceutical companies, the government, the FDA, the manufacturers of drugs, and the people who demand medication for every tiny thing.

But still, people should get vaccinated. Measles and Whooping cough and polio and other diseases that we nearly eradicated are dangerous. We don't have to lose babies to these preventable diseases.

[whereisjustice]

91. thank you, and agree, the price of vaccines has tripled in last 15 years, dr offices in tx

have stopped supplying it because

1. patients can't pay
2. they have to buy it up front, sometimes at costs of over 100K.

Our local clinic stopped giving them about 5 years ago.

But that is related to #1 and #2 on my list.

[JDPriestly]

109. Vaccinations for these common diseases

should be paid for out of our taxes and given free to everyone.

[whereisjustice]

113. +1!!!

[Trillo]

233. Yes.

If it truly is a public health threat, then one would think taxes should pay for it.

[on point]

90. Ignorance and woo. Stop feeding the stupidity

[whereisjustice]

95. the problem is - your response is even worse than their assertions, seriously

if you aren't going to take the time to figure out how to take the various arguments and develop a campaign supporting vaccination, you are just making things worse.

We let our eye off the ball, and the anti-vax folks got traction. Only public awareness and trust will fix the problem.

[Voice for Peace]

92. I would like to give this post a thousand recs.

Without compassion, patience, a willingness to listen,
and the humility to learn something new -- for example,
that the other person is human -- the virulent anti-anti-vaxxers
will never progress in their quest to save humankind.

Not politically, medically, scientifically, spiritually, atheistically,
or otherwise. The arrogance in the end weighs them down.

[whereisjustice]

96. Agree - thanks for your post

[SunSeeker]

97. The anti-vaccination lunatics are the arrogant ones.

They endanger their own kids--and the rest of us--to try to prove their "I know better than science" lunacy.

[whereisjustice]

101. You are not very old, I remember polio and measles, etc - anti-vax is nothing new

what is new - lack of public education about effectiveness of vaccines - everywhere in 1960s.

Vaccines were always historically cheap. Now they are hundreds of dollars. Don't even bother with ACA because not everyone can afford it nor do they have it.

We have a cut throat medical and insurance system now that didn't exist 40 years ago.

And we have a government that can't keep its eye on the ball - just look at the epic Ebola fuck up.

You get what you pay for and we bought this.

Not only that, a farm worker from mexico has no incentive to risk getting caught by going for a vaccine.

Times are different. We brought this on ourselves.

[SunSeeker]

106. Bullshit. It is not about cost.

Last edited Tue Feb 3, 2015, 04:04 AM - Edit history (1)

Otherwise, Mississippi would not have the highest vaccination rate in the country.

California has the best healthcare for the poor in the country. Any kid who needs immunizations can get them for free here. And yet we have the most unvaccinated kids.

Your argument is irrational and all over the place. Our federal government's (quite effective) response to Ebola was a "fuck up" and explains anti-vaxxers? What silliness.

Sorry I wasted my time with this lame thread.

[dissentient]

100. I agree, this is one of the best threads about the topic I have read on DU so far

Most of the flood of threads about this topic the past few days have just been knee jerk reactions without much substance or thought put in them, but this thread is an exception.

This thread deserves a lot more recs than 15, IMHO.

[DeSwiss]

99. FINALLY!!!!!!

- Someone who gets it......

[whereisjustice]

105. lol and thank you, much better than being called a blood stained killer :)

[KT2000]

102. I think too many here

are enjoying their hatred. It is a disappointing thing to see as it is starting to look somewhat like RW invective.

I appreciate your thoughtful post.

Growing up I knew children who had polio, I was vaccinated and did not get it, and in my adulthood I have known a woman who was given a polio vaccine from a "bad batch" and has spent her life from childhood on in a wheelchair, with severe palsy in her arms, hands, and legs. It is a complicated subject.

[whereisjustice]

104. agree - I bet many trashing this thread never got their measles booster which is

required due to 14 yr gap in vaccine effectiveness 1957 to 1971.

Ironic, for sure.

Thanks for your comment.

[RobinA]

165. Can You

tell me more about this or point me in a direction? I would have been vaccinated for measles somewhere '58-'59 (I don't know the age you get vaccinated), but I have been titred (is that a word?) in 2006 for a job and found to have the appropriate antibodies. I never thought anymore about it, but I am curious about this gap of which you speak.

[whereisjustice]

273. here is one report

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2015/01/20/doctor-suspects-measles-inflicted-disney-employees-never-had-full-vaccination/

SANTA MONICA (CBSLA.com) — A number of Disney employees have contracted the measles virus, even though some of them say they had previously received vaccination.

The figures of the virus continue to increase after visitors to the Disneyland park started falling ill last month.

Angela Vassallo of Providence St. John’s Infection Prevention and Epidemiology says she thinks she may know why these individuals may have still been stricken, despite claims of vaccination.

“My suspicion is that, if they were vaccinated, they only received one dose, the first dose of the vaccine, and didn’t check their immunity and didn’t get the second dose of the vaccine,” Vassallo said.

The Centers for Disease Control recommends two doses of the measles vaccine. Most children born after 1971, the year the vaccine was created, received the first dose at age 1, and the second dose at age 4.

Vassallo says that once the vaccine is administered, it lasts for a lifetime.

Those born before 1957 are likely already immune, according to Vassallo. This is because they’ve been exposed to the measles. However, she recommends people born between 1957 and 1971 to check their immunization records.

“Anyone born between 1957 and 1971, you definitely want to check, because the vaccines that were created in the 60s, at least one we found later, didn’t work,” Vassallo said.

Doctors are able to perform a simple test for anyone who is in question over their immunity.

“They take blood specimens and look at your titers to see if you have immunity to the disease,” Vassallo described. “If not, then they start that two-dose regimen.”

Recent figures show the total of measles cases in California to be 53.

This number, Vassallo says, is cause for great concern.

“For one sick person, about 90 percent of people around them who don’t have immunity will pick up the disease.”

Vassallo says that pregnant women, women trying to get pregnant or people with weakened immune systems should not receive vaccinations.

[whereisjustice]

275. maybe you are refering to antibody titration (titering)? TB test is also common

it is a skin test.

[arikara]

103. This thing is Salem witch trials all over again

Its gone very ugly.

Thank you for your common sense.

[pnwmom]

107. And don't forget the recent fraud claims connected to Merck's MMR vaccine, complete with whistle-blowers.

This certainly hasn't helped the campaign to raise vaccine rates.

Yes! If we want to raise vaccine rates, the government and Big Pharma will have to start by regaining the trust of the public. For too long they've just taken it for granted.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/merck-whistleblowers_b_5881914.html

Merck, the pharmaceutical giant, is facing a slew of controversies over its Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) vaccine following numerous allegations of wrongdoing from different parties in the medical field, including two former Merck scientists-turned-whistleblowers. A third whistleblower, this one a scientist at the Centers for Disease Control, also promises to bring Merck grief following his confession of misconduct involving the same MMR vaccine.

The controversies will find Merck defending itself and its vaccine in at least two federal court cases after a U.S. District judge earlier this month threw out Merck's attempts at dismissal. Merck now faces federal charges of fraud from the whistleblowers, a vaccine competitor and doctors in New Jersey and New York. Merck could also need to defend itself in Congress: The staff of representative Bill Posey (R-Fla) -- a longstanding critic of the CDC interested in an alleged link between vaccines and autism -- is now reviewing some 1,000 documents that the CDC whistleblower turned over to them.

The first court case, United States v. Merck & Co., stems from claims by two former Merck scientists that Merck "fraudulently misled the government and omitted, concealed, and adulterated material information regarding the efficacy of its mumps vaccine in violation of the FCA [False Claims Act]."

According to the whistleblowers' court documents, Merck's misconduct was far-ranging: It "failed to disclose that its mumps vaccine was not as effective as Merck represented, (ii) used improper testing techniques, (iii) manipulated testing methodology, (iv) abandoned undesirable test results, (v) falsified test data, (vi) failed to adequately investigate and report the diminished efficacy of its mumps vaccine, (vii) falsely verified that each manufacturing lot of mumps vaccine would be as effective as identified in the labeling, (viii) falsely certified the accuracy of applications filed with the FDA, (ix) falsely certified compliance with the terms of the CDC purchase contract, (x) engaged in the fraud and concealment describe herein for the purpose of illegally monopolizing the U.S. market for mumps vaccine, (xi) mislabeled, misbranded, and falsely certified its mumps vaccine, and (xii) engaged in the other acts described herein to conceal the diminished efficacy of the vaccine the government was purchasing."

SNIP

[whereisjustice]

110. thanks, there is another irony, between 1957 and 1971 measles vaccine was "less" effective

meaning from 100% to 0% effective.

This is widely known but still I wonder how many people screaming about measles never got their booster or tested for immunity. The number is in millions.

I just took the shot again about 5 ago after travel nurse brought it to my attention that I definitely was in the risk group for lowered or zero immunity. Otherwise, I would never have known.

[pnwmom]

112. That's right. Many of the people filled with outrage are under-vaccinated themselves

and have no idea. But if they were "fully vaccinated" during that period of time, they're supposed to get re-vaccinated now.

[HockeyMom]

142. It was a killed virus back then

that is why it is less effect. The new measles vax is a small amount of the live virus. The concept is the same as getting the full blown disease. The body attacks the virus by producing antibodies. Mealess itself has for more of the llive virus. It produces more antibodies than the vax. It has to. If the vaccine contained as much of the virus as the disease, you would GET MEASLES.

Natural immunity (from the disease), acquired immunity (from the vax), passive immunity (from mother). Immunity does not ONLY come from vaccinations.

If provaxers do not know the medical science behind all this and just keep SCREAMING about everyone getting vaccinated, OR ELSE, they will be dismissed.

[Pooka Fey]

145. +1

[Eko]

119. Way too funny.

#7 is just the height of absurdity.
?9873a6
http://gizmodo.com/all-natural-bananas-are-filled-with-chemicals-1504564161
The rest are really bad also when it comes to using logic. Updated to add picture.

[Eko]

120. Look at all that acid in there!!!!!!!!

When people start railing against natural banana's we should understand where they are coming from because of the acid chemicals it has, we should also understand where the anti-food people are coming from because natural food has killed many, many, many people throughout history, it is understandable that they distrust food.

[trotsky]

162. LOL, I thought the exact same thing with #7.

Too many chemicals! ZOMG!

[Humanist_Activist]

123. To go down you list, one by one:

1) I would say no shit, but allow me to reiterate, no shit, don't see how this applies though, look here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026171193

2) Again, no shit, yes graft and the revolving door needs to be closed, but this isn't an issue unique to the Pharmaceutical industry, look at the FCC and telecommunication regulation.

3) This is always a source for concern, and related to the above point in number 2, is a reason to call for independent clinical trials with full transparency before market penetration can occur.

4) Again, this is a call for more regulation of a private industry.

5) It would be nice if you had some verification for this incident that didn't involve some anti-vaccination websites, here's the source, by the way: http://www.samawomenshealth.org/downloads/Visit%20to%20Bhadrachalam%20-%20A%20Report%20Final.pdf

I would agree that the government of India ran a shoddy observational study here, but as for the vaccine itself, there's no connection to the deaths that occurred, and many of the symptoms they mentioned are common for all injections(soreness at point of injection), or could be age or development related. A significant fraction of the girls who were given the injection, ended up getting their first menstruation, but this was also a study of girls from the age of roughly 9 to 14, so this is to be expected.

6) Citation please, the biggest issue is being prescribed antibiotics when it isn't necessary, or patients not following through with their antibiotic regimen, which may lead to underusing the medication. Both of these issues contribute to bacteria evolving antibiotic resistance, but isn't an instance of "overmedicating" whatever that means.

7) Citation please, this just seems like so much fear mongering. We have too much pollution, mostly due to industry and energy production, but I know of no one, nowadays, outside of some Republican assholes, who claim it is safe.

8) The mercury in question is an excellent preservative and is perfectly safe, just because it has the metal mercury in it doesn't mean you will get the same reaction you do from elemental mercury. People consume vast quantities of sodium chloride daily, yet you don't see people exploding that often. Ignorance of chemistry by the public should NOT fuel health care policy.

9) This was a horrible, unethical experiment, rife with bad science, bad policy and outright racism.

10) I agree with this, anti-vaxers are arrogant, short sighted, and ignorant. We already knew this.

The problem is that there is no building trust here, the fallback will be some type of crazy conspiracy theory or another. People like to create their own narratives, and do not dismiss good old fashioned anti-intellectualism, which is as American as apple pie.

[kcr]

128. Your post is exactly what brings the pitchforks out

I think that sometimes the hatred does go a little too far and isn't helpful. But all you did was repeat the woo that makes people angry. And the anger is more than understandable. This is ignorance that is causing needless death and suffering.

[Chemisse]

129. THANK-YOU!

The hysteria and rage here on DU about this issue is just searing. It's like a primal scream.

Who has the energy for all this? I save mine for more important issues, like the survival of humanity on our planet with the changing climate.

[leftofcool]

131. Naw, DUers love their pitchforks.

The love of pitchforks is pretty evident just by reading the responses. My faves are "Put the anti-vaxers in concentration camps." and "Let's eject them all from society." You make some good points especially those concerning the lack of trust in the government and big pharma. Du sheeple do what they do best, they follow other sheeple. Those of us who understand the problem are better off working with the anti-vaxers to change their point of view on vaccines.

[Eko]

158. We should work with the people who think gays should not be able to get married then.

Those who think African Americans are sub humans, the trickle down tax people, the ammo sexual gun nuts that think they should be able to own cannons and tanks. The war mongers and big banks, the dominionist Christians who think we should have laws that follow their version of religion, the Islam is worse than anything else crowd. You can talk all you want to stupid, history has shown that doesn't work except in a few circumstances. Didn't fix slavery, women not being able to vote, hasn't worked for climate change. Talking nice did not get rid of don't ask don't tell. It's not going to fix the stagnant wage issue, the union problems, It's not going to fix the banks too big to fail problem. History is against you. But we are sheeple because I don't want my nephews and nieces to contract a horrible disease that is preventable. This is what is wrong with the democratic party. You choose being nice over what is right. You choose nice over science, over reason. You choose anti-government, because you are a ol fashioned anti government liberal. Merica bad!!! instead of realizing, yes we are bad, and good. You don't understand the problem, you are the problem. There is a large population of the US that will always be stupid, catering to them will get nothing done. More people think we have been visited by aliens than believe in anthropogenic climate change, reason is not a quality Americans believe in, but we should talk to them while the planet burns. Totally laughable.

[haikugal]

252. Brava!!!

[reddread]

132. never mind the question, the answer is

turning citizens against each other.

[woo me with science]

146. You are paying attention.

Watch the source. Watch the tone. Watch the patterns of messaging.

It's really an excellent OP, because it invites a more reasoned and effective approach, if the pitchfork wielders were actually concerned about vaccines. What the vitriolic response reveals is that the pitchfork wielders' true agenda is something else entirely.

You nailed the corporate MO. Always the same group. Always the same agenda of stoking division.

[JEB]

224. I've noticed that as well.

[sabrina 1]

295. I think a lot of people already figured that out 'that the pitchfork wielders' true agenda is

something else entirely'. Even more have figured out what that agenda is. But it's interesting to play along sometimes.

[Chemisse]

133. To this list I would add the introduction of a vaccine that might not even be necessary.

When - as brand new parents who spent a long time researching every facet of this new experience - you stumble upon the fact that the first vaccine the baby is to receive is for hepatitis B, and you see there are questions about its safety and you wonder exactly why the baby needs this shot to begin with, the radar goes up.

The trust in the whole vaccination schedule is shaken and the baby is only a day old!

I think this could explain why so many who don't vaccinate their kids are educated parents.

[Pooka Fey]

141. Had all my mercury fillings removed 11 years ago after a gum reaction to a crown

which no conventional medicine could heal after 9 months of treatment. Abscess healed after mercury fillings were removed.

Great post. Loved this line:

We cannot begin to fix the problem without understanding the problem.

I'm very skeptical and I do not trust BigPharma. I have multiple chemical sensitivities and at my age, I can only eat organic. This is the 1st vaxxer thread I've posted on, due to fear of the DU pitchfork mob. I have all my normal vaccines, required for university enrollment. However, I would refuse the HPV cervical cancer vaccine, were it to be made mandatory.

[hobbit709]

144. The root cause is that Idiocracy is actually a documentary.

[Major Nikon]

150. I have issues with #8

The reason thimerosal is used as a preservative is to prevent staph infections which actually did manage to kill children. Thimerosal is not just safe and effective, but allows cheaper multidose vials to be safe and effective. You can't just use any old preservative in vaccines. The alternative to thimerosal is single use vials which increase the cost of vaccinations. So it might be easy to say that we should have dumped thimerosal if you have no problem paying for vaccinations, but this move simply made them that much less affordable for many with zero benefit other than kowtowing to anti-vax and chemophobic dipshits.

[randome]

151. I have heard of no anti-vaxer state the points you made.

It boils down to "You can't make me!" bullshit.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, it's still gonna hurt.[/center][/font][hr]

[Orrex]

154. Ladies and gentlemen, I present another sad case of

In any DU thread about medicine or pseudoscience, it is exceedingly likely that someone will invoke the specter of "big pharma" within the first three replies.

It's rare that the OP strikes Threefer Madness gold right out of the gate, especially invoking that specter with all caps, but you managed it in each of your first seven points. Bravo!

You also go after the red herring of mercury, as if all mercury is created equal. This betrays a basic misunderstanding of chemistry. Do you also live in fear of the poisonous chlorine you ingest on your popcorn?

Point nine is, ultimately, your strongest, and it speaks to the mistrust caused by an undeniably vile policy lasting decades. You should be careful to point out, however, that those airmen weren't infected by the study, as is commonly believed, but rather the doctors failed to treat them. A criminal and unconscionable failure of medical ethics, but still significantly different from deliberate infection.

Point ten is half right. Anti-vax fear is almost always irrational and impervious to rational discussion. Convincing these people of their error is an all but futile effort because they're invested in a belief system and are unable or uninterested in rationally examining those beliefs. If someone is innocently ignorant, that ignorance can be corrected. If someone is deliberately ignorant, then that ignorance is part of that person's identity. You call for "understanding the basis for their fear" when in fact you should--with at least equal vigor--be exhorting those fearful anti-vaxxers to stop believing bullshit.


The overall tone of your post is deferential to anti-vaxxers and scolding of those who accept actual science.

[Jamastiene]

159. I will tell you what.

You be the diplomat here and coddle them. I'll keep my pitchfork* ready. I will put my pitchfork down and hold the hand of any adult you can convince to get their child vaccinated and talk any child through the vaccinations. The child will be fine, but extremely brainwashed to believe they are going to just die if someone sticks a needle in them. It's the adult that needs their hand held to get through it.


*I don't currently have a pitchfork, but I will buy one for this exercise in futility IF you can convince even one of them to get their kids vaccinated, just so I can put it down.

[RobinA]

161. I Suggested This

in much less detail on a different forum. It did not go well. No reasoning with the righteous.

[Jamastiene]

164. Righteousness has nothing to do with it.

If convincing people who are stubborn was even possible, there would be no more Republican Party, much less Teabaggers. Think about it. Trying to convince stubborn people is a fool's errand. They will dig their heels in no matter how much you coddle them.

[jberryhill]

195. "No reasoning with the righteous"

Irony much.

"I don't like pharma companies" is no reason not to vaccinate your kids as normal people have been doing for decades, with obvious effective results.

There is no reasoning with the irrational, but they aren't the ones refusing to vaccinate their kids.

[Bluenorthwest]

167. This is an international problem. Learn about outbreaks in the Netherlands and Canada which stream

out of the anti science protestant sects there.
This OP is incomplete and America-centric.

"In the Netherlands the national vaccination program started in 1957. Despite a high vaccination coverage, in the last two decades there have been epidemics of poliomyelitis (1992-1993), measles (1999-2000), rubella (2004-2005) and mumps (2007-2008)... Almost all patients in these epidemics belonged to the orthodox protestant minority and were unvaccinated because of religious objections."
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/11/102

Canada, Mumps 2011:
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=65d245df-6bf6-4ac8-8978-89382fc4f040

The role of religious leaders in promoting acceptance of vaccination within a minority group: a qualitative study
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3668146/

[seabeyond]

171. 17 yrs ago, my son had a reaction to 2 year old, zillion shots. late at night, he went into autistic

behaviors. he had always been different. i FEEL that the shot just triggered something within him.

but as a parent, as a mama, i know it had to do with the vacs.

no. we parents who children are effected do not TRUST the medical community on this issue.

(i could get much further into the subject having studied it after his reaction, but i am busy in personal life and do not have time)

i continued giving all his vacs. he continued to react. we have dealt with his different for his lifetime. we find tools and understanding, for him to excel regardless. and i gave the vacs to my next son. who did not have the same reaction.

i got a repeated vac of rubella (17 yrs ago) cause mine wore off, and my blood type so rare, if i were to get rubella it would affect any donors giving me blood. good reasoning, i think.

i have been in the discussion in the past. the mere fact, that i make a statement has allowed attack, ridicule, scorn, and a whole lot of nasty dumped on me.

i remember one conversation, with someone in the field, that finally admitted that yes, a very small handful of children do have issues. but for the good of the whole.

reality is, .... when talking to that one child affected, or parents of that one child, they are not gonna slink off to the corner, tail in between legs, cause a mob of people threw rocks.

[nashville_brook]

191. i have reactions to flu shots

b/c of an immune condition. i'd miss a week of work and illness would just cascade -- getting worse and worse. after years of being dead dog sick after the shot, i don't get flu shots anymore. i simply can't do it.

this particular immune condition has been linked to hyper-reactivity to vaccines. unfortunately, our understanding of the immune system isn't to the point where we can identify kids with a pre-disposition to this, otherwise we'd be able to give them medical excuses for not taking the vaccines and everybody would be happy.

what's so frustrating is that the research on the immune condition has gotten tied-up in this controversy over vaccines, and researchers trying to publish on the subject have for years been ostracized in trying to get the most elementary definitions published -- so we barely even have a name for the syndrome. some call it ME/CFS. some say it's inherited, some say it's viral, some say it's a reaction to a critical mass of "environmental insults." we don't have answers because the research has been politicized. what i do know is that i nearly died from sepsis as a child (recently found this out), and again when i was 36. so basically, my immune system randomly shuts down. it will be okay one day and then gone the next.

all that to say -- there's an intersection between autism and these immune dysfunctions that's explored in this book, if you're interested:

http://www.amazon.com/Plague-Scientist%C2%92s-Intrepid-Retroviruses-Syndrome/dp/1626365652/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1422973886&sr=8-1&keywords=mikovits

[seabeyond]

206. we don't have answers because the research has been politicized.

that is the frustration for me. find the fuckin problems and address. but we cant/dont for many reasons. valid reasons.

thanks too, for addressing respectfully. that we cannot even take that first step says something.

and... thanks for further info. on the way out the door, but will check that out later.

[Ms. Toad]

296. Agreed. I've talked about that intersection - and the need

to figure out how to identify predisposition to immune disorders so that vaccinations can be handled differently in that population. (Or to handle vaccinations in a way that is less likely to be a trigger precisely because we can't currently identify for whom it might be a trigger). But unless the concern is a documented immune deficiency, it is pitchfork time.

My concern is actually the opposite - those with a tendency to autoimmune disorders - disorders where one or more environmental triggers such as vaccinations, boosted by adjuvants, could trigger manifestation of a costly (in any number of senses) chronic condition.

[KMOD]

193. I am very sorry that your son had a bad reaction to the vaccinations.

I would like to hope that most people are aware that yes, a small percentage of children to react badly.

I can understand why you would have distrust on the issue, yet you still made the decision, and I imagine it was hard for you, to vaccinate you next son, and to continue vaccinations for your fist son.

[treestar]

176. Not vaccinating is plain stupid

1-10 are poor excuses. Nothing is perfect, but vaccination against deadly childhood diseases has been a boon to society.

[whereisjustice]

263. You fail to understand how things have changed, if you don't adjust the campaign

you lose interest and votes. You have a picture of Joe Biden. He will know that there was a massive public campaign to vaccinate in the 1960s. It was everywhere, posters, tv radio. And there were plenty of anti-vax people around back then.

Many of us remember some very bad outcomes - live vaccines that sickened thousands, many people died or became crippled. There were also ineffective ones.

Yet we still did it. But that was a very socialized medicine campaign. Something even many Democrats would object to.

Today - Democrats would insist PhARMA have incentives for running the same sort of campaign, we would insist that PhARMA get maximum profit and give them tax credits. Nevermind that it is just the right thing to do.

While vaccines were virtually free, now many clinics do not give them.

The costs have increased by thousands of percent - mostly because drug companies only want high margin pills which are just minor tweaks to old drugs only for the purposes of maintaining patent control.

Now the thing that I find hilarious is the self-righteous, pitch forkers spouting off like they are biochemists who are probably under immunized.

From 1957 to 1971 the measles vaccine was largely ineffective. Millions are at risk.

Yet here they are - spouting off like they know some shit.

I'd love to go one on one with an immune/antibody test and I have no doubt that the biggest hippie punchers in the crowd are the most vulnerable.

But you fail to understand this isn't about who is right or wrong. Of course vaccination is the right thing to do. This is an effort to understand what the fear is and conquer it with logic rather than hippie punching.

lol - all the big, tough, strong holier than thou types screaming "burn the witch".

[treestar]

290. It sickened thousands?

It kept people from getting sick. With polio, whooping cough. Most side effects are mild and certainly better than diseases like that.

The child mortality rate was huge in the past.

[NCTraveler]

185. Great op.

I would probably be labeled as a part of the "pitchfork brigade." There are some things I could nit pick but your overall message is excellent. We need to understand why people in 2015 can be so anti-science. They didn't just wake up and decide that science is simply wrong. There is a long track record of disservices to the American people that can make those with lesser critical thinking skills to be skeptical of anything. It is a fair argument you have presented as a way to understand their position a little better. No matter how wrong they are they were brought to their line of thinking for a reason.

[whereisjustice]

264. thanks, appreciate it. most people can't seem to do more than skim and overreact

What's different about this than say global warming is that the science is so much more accessible and immediate. The cause and effect is here and now. So it seems like a solvable problem if we just figure out the problem and design the right sort of campaign to nip the hysteria in the bud.

The science is so overwhelming it makes it easy to shut up assholes like Christie when the science is at your finger tips.

Meanwhile, there is a perfect irony around a measles outbreak and middle aged Americans scolding about vaccines.

From 1957 to 1971 - many people (millions) received a shot that was not anywhere near expected potency. Assuming they never got measles, these people are now at risk for spreading measles.

Yep, under (at best) or un (at worst) immunized and screaming "burn the witch". lol

[NCTraveler]

289. I want to change one part of my comment.

This is something I have been thinking about over the last couple of weeks. Some of the people I know who are ant-vaxx are some of the most intelligent and compassionate people I know. My comment about them not having great critical thinking skills was that inner "pitchforker" in me. It was wrong on my part. It is probably one of the more difficult parts of understanding them. Many are truly well adapted, highly intelligent, and very compassionate. An old friend of mine is an anti-vaxxer. I would never attempt to put my intelligence up against his. In my eyes he is brilliant. He has also dedicated his life toward the care of animals. He really does have the ambition to make it very well in business but instead dedicates himself to others. How did this person become so anti-Vaxx? Not sure I have the full answer for that but I do know it isn't due to a lack of intelligence or critical thinking skills.

[arcane1]

226. Try again when you learn how vaccines work.

[cyberswede]

232. Do you have a link that supports your claim that unvaccinated refugees caused the outbreak(s)?

Thanks.

[1bigdude]

196. I believe Pres Obama AND Hillary were both guilty of the same type of vaccine hysteria...

“We’ve seen just a skyrocketing autism rate. Some people are suspicious that it’s connected to the vaccines. This person included. The science right now is inconclusive, but we have to research it,” then Sen. Obama said in 2008.

Likely 2016 Democrat nominee Hillary Clinton had a similar statement while speaking to an anti-vaccine group on the campaign trail in 2008.

“I am committed to make investments to find the causes of autism, including possible environmental causes like vaccines,” said Clinton in a written response to the group.

[jberryhill]

197. "We are over-medicated"

Wait, people are not vaccinating their kids because they are "over medicated"?

If the problem arose from some generalized suspicion of pharma companies, then why are they taking all of those other medications?

[Act_of_Reparation]

216. Never mind that without vaccines, we'd be even more medicated.

Medications treat the symptoms of disease. Vaccines prevent disease.

But, I think asking these people to think logically at this point is as effective as pissing in the wind. They are all case studies in the Dunning-Kruger effect.

[Bettie]

198. Based on admittedly personal and anecdotal experience

Another factor is that a lot of the anti-vax people have not seen what childhood diseases do. They are young enough to have been raised in an environment where these diseases are uncommon. As a result, they don't seem like a big problem.

I'm 48 and only knew two people (both much older than I was) who had lifelong disabilities from Polio. I knew adults who had lost children to childhood diseases, but most of the young moms have never seen what these seemingly benign childhood diseases can do.

They have always lived in a world where they aren't an issue BECAUSE of vaccination.

[MineralMan]

202. Your long post leaves out something important.

When the smallpox vaccine was shown to provide excellent protection against that dreaded disease, people fought against its use for decade after decade. This was long before pharmaceutical companies existed. It happened in the early 19th century. People wrote long treatises against vaccination. People refused vaccination.

Why? Because they were ignorant and did not trust the valid science that demonstrated the vaccine's effectiveness against this disease that took the lives of so many.

Eventually, mandatory vaccination won. Eventually, everyone got vaccinated. And do you know what happened? 200 years after the smallpox vaccine was developed by Jenner, smallpox was eradicated from the planet. Today, people do not get vaccinated against smallpox, since there is no need for vaccination against that disease. Smallpox has been defeated.

Polio is next. We're almost there, and in much less time. I remember the polio scares of the 1950s. I knew people who died from polio and people who were very sick but recovered. We're almost rid of polio now, but people still fight against vaccination. People are still stupid and unwilling to trust science. That's the real reason for the anti-vaccination nonsense: Stupid people who don't believe that science can solve the problem of some diseases.

We'll win, but it will be a long battle, because there are always stupid, ignorant people who will resist lifesaving measures. I hope it won't take 200 years again. Truly.

[LWolf]

205. This is a good start.

How many of those who like to scream "woo" are willing to engage in a discussion of how to address the problem? Or is nuanced thought that includes multiple factors simply too complicated for them, leading them to cluster around their "woo" stories and start a charge with their pitchforks?



This I will stand with you on:

We cannot begin to fix the problem without understanding the problem.

This is true for any problem, including the problem posed by people refusing vaccinations. Anyone who was truly determined to SOLVE the problem, rather than attack others, would begin right there.

[jeff47]

210. No, because the root cause is stupidity and fraud. All of your arguments are wrong.

1. PhRMA is responsible for their relentless pursuit of profit at any cost to human health. This erodes trust.

"PhRMA" makes 1000 to 10,000,000 times more money treating a disease instead of vaccinating against it.

A vaccine is cheap. A lifetime of drugs, heavy medical care and an iron lung are expensive.

When your first argument is wrong, it kinda demonstrates just how dumb "this side" of the discussion is.

2. The government is responsible for failing to objectively regulate PhRMA due to the massive financial contributions PhRMA makes to election campaigns.

We're talking about vaccines that have been given to billions of people all over the planet. Donations to US politicians are not going to cover up for hundreds of millions of injured people outside the US.

3. Recent cases of drug fraud and drug failures resulting in thousands of deaths and millions of injuries.

Humans are extremely complex organisms. We do studies to try and make sure that drugs are safe, but sometimes every possible situation does not happen during a study. When we discover we missed something, it takes a little bit to show that we actually missed something.

But this is a complete red herring. The vaccines under discussion have been used for many years all over the planet. If we missed something, it would have shown up by now.

4. The India Generic Drug Scandal - Bone chilling account of cost cutting measures gone bad.

And this is a reason to not buy drugs in the US because.............?

Oh wait, it's just scary about corruption and poor regulation elsewhere. That's why you talked it up as "bone chilling!!!"

5. Bill Gates and HPV Vaccine Testing on the Poor in India
The committee found that consent for conducting these studies, in many cases, was taken from the hostel wardens, which was a flagrant violation of norms.

And so we must make their suffering for naught. Instead, we must also make lots of women suffer through cervical cancer.

6. We are over-medicated.

This claim requires actual evidence. "There were less drugs 50 years ago" is not evidence.

7. We are exposed to too many chemicals in our daily lives.

This claim requires actual evidence. Because you are actually exposed to less toxic chemicals than 50 years ago. If you'd like to prove we are actually in danger from any of the things you claim are harmful, your Nobel prize is waiting. You just have to prove it.

8. It was really, really stupid to leave mercury as a preservative in vaccines for so long. Everyone knows mercury is bad shit.

Your argument here is "I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I can make it sound scary".

Biologically, mercury is relevant in two forms. Ethyl mercury and methyl mercury. Methyl mercury can kill you. You will dispose of ethyl mercury the next time you pee. To claim that "all mercury is bad" is like saying water can kill you because hydrogen is flammable.

9. The Tuskegee syphilis experiment

Is not relevant. No vaccine was tested. But again, it's an excellent way to scare people instead of providing facts.

10. Arrogance. We don't see polio nor measles. A false sense of superiority attributed to "good living" is being confused with years of devotion to disease eradication

And your post continues this.

[Act_of_Reparation]

214. ^This

[Barack_America]

269. ^^^^^must read.

+1

[Avalux]

211. It's not about trust.

If parents have an irrational fear of vaccinations, they owe it to their kids to do everything they can to educate themselves about each one, how they're made and what they do. After that, after considering each one INDIVIDUALLY and looking at the EVIDENCE that the benefits outweigh the risks, there shouldn't be any room for excuses. There isn't any excuse that can justify refusing to vaccinate.

The science doesn't lie. If a person refuses to accept the evidence based on irrational fear, there isn't much any of us can do to change their mind. It's about looking at the science and making an informed decision. Government and drug cos. make mistakes, they always have an always will. It's our job to keep them honest through KNOWLEDGE.

[Oilwellian]

212. K&R

We need a vaccine to prevent arrogance and stupidity more than any other disease.

We cannot begin to fix the problem without understanding the problem.

[underpants]

218. Conspiracy whackos and people with too much time on their hands

I am not disagreeing with you. Great post.

[we can do it]

219. Horse. Fucking. Shit.

[Iggo]

228. No.

[Trillo]

229. Public funding of elections! That would rebuild trust in the longer term.

Of course, the oligarchs stand proudly in the way.

I don't think it would necessarily help in situations where science was studying some drug or disease on poor folks. Removing the private money from elections would perhaps help with developing better regulation of studies that are declared.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

231. When it comes to

vaccines I trust Jenny McCarthy more than I trust the Govt...

[adieu]

235. There is only one reason for being in the anti-vax side

Not knowing how to research and study things up.

I'll take back a step and blame religion. Because religion enforces the idea that scientific research is not a necessary skill. Religion requires people to be selectively skeptical, and to accept things of high improbability (e.g., the existence of a magical sky wizard) over things with much evidence. Religion teaches people to be skeptical of well understood things and to be accepting of beliefs with no basis behind them.

That sort of training catches up with people eventually.

[6000eliot]

240. Stupidity and self-important privilege? Check.

[Orsino]

242. Wrong. We CAN begin to fix a real problem without fully understanding others.

We can vaccinate more. And there are no pitchforks, literal or otherwise in the way of discussion here.

Antivaxers showing up to troll are not going to be persuaded either by rough language or by our playing nice, so you can stop worrying about freewheeling discussion here. Out of it will come some constructive action.

[DesertDiamond]

244. Whew! Thank you soooooo much! I wanted to write this but you did it first!

Personally I think this is just another issue being used to turn us against each other. And there are those who are falling for it, big time - torches and pitchforks in hand.

[renate]

246. my kids are vaccinated but I think you have a very good point

And like you (presumably) I don't think calling anti-vax people stupid is helpful at all. I don't understand why anyone would think that talking louder and longer is persuasive. Addressing their concerns respectfully (whether or not pro-vax people think their concerns are worthy of respect) would be much more effective.

[Gman]

248. Every single one of your 10 points is completely irrelevant.

The issue is good public policy. So what if big Pharma makes vaccines? It's foolish to make a point of big pharma in all this.

The world did not begin whenever you became aware. Mandated Vaccinations have been good policy for many decades now and at one time Americans unanimously wanted rid of killer childhood illnesses. The only thing that has changed is the people who lived when there were no vaccines are all but gone leaving us with idiots that question and endanger us.

[ThoughtCriminal]

249. 11. Needles

Anti-vax can be an excuse for something that people don't like to admit.

They hurt. Even many adults hate getting shots to the point of avoiding annual flu shots. And they also don't like dealing with a screaming child who is getting a shot.

Needle phobia: a neglected diagnosis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7636457

"Needle phobia is a recently defined medical condition that affects at least 10% of the population. Because persons with needle phobia typically avoid medical care, this condition is a significant impediment in the health care system."

[jtuck004]

251. An arbitration? Sure. Tell you what. They leave the pre-pubescent wmd at home, I'll leave the

pitchfork that I use to keep from the door at home too.

[whereisjustice]

272. Funny you should say that. Did you know millions of middle aged people who thought

they were immunized against measles are actually under or unimmunized due to a problem with the vaccine between 1957 and 1971?

I'll put money on the virtual table that many of the pitchforkers:

1. Didn't know they need to get a shot if they've never had measles to develop immunity

2. Know, but can't be bothered.

With more people in catagory 2.

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/are-you-in-the-14-year-gap-that-was-unreliable-for-measles-vaccine/

It's actually frightening to see a pack/gang mentality from authoritarian Democrats.

Makes all Democrats look stupid. People can vote Republican if they want that.

[jtuck004]

276. ROFL. You sent me a video in which a doctor says the anti-vaxxers are wrong, and that people my age

are likely immune, and that there was a time when vaccines weren't as reliable as they are now. Then you start reaching for a bunch of unsubstantiated air that goes nowhere. Congratulations. Also, this seems like an odd place for you to be advocating that people should vote Republican if they don't agree with you, but I bet the Republicans will appreciate your assistan...no, forget that. You might sway some votes, but they never appreciate anything.

You are providing all the more reason to keep the wretched little virus factories away from everyone. And since the invention of insurance, which predates crappy vaccines, most doctors have no choice but to push all the vaccines they think the patients need on them - in most modern practices the software brings it up before the doctor does. Well patients are MUCH more profitable than sick ones.

Btw, even with a google search, I didn't find that the "14 year gappers" had created support groups, demonstrated, refused to act in their own or others best interests, or even, exist in any but a vanishingly small number, vs the very real threat from the active carriers among us right now. So if that's the sort of thing that occupies you, you are on your own. I'd rather talk to people with something to say.

[whereisjustice]

280. you think I am an anti-vaxer? that's your take away? Christ I can't believe I wasted my time w/ you

[Spitfire of ATJ]

253. You missed it...

[Liberal Veteran]

261. "7. We are exposed to too many chemicals in our daily lives." What does that even mean?

Our body is made up of chemicals.
Our food is made of chemicals.

Every fucking thing that is not energy or an idea is a chemical.

A banana is made of chemicals.
Water is made of chemicals.
Air is made of chemicals.

Wishes are not a chemical.
Light is not a chemical.

Chemical. Not a bad scary word and definitely not just another word for "poison" or "toxin".

[joanbarnes]

270. Thank you for posting. All good points, also don't forget this year's ineffective flu shot.

[Dont call me Shirley]

277. Most rational post on the vaccine issue yet. Bravo whereisjustice!

[rwsanders]

278. Good job!

I'd add, just an over all distrust of government also. And I don't mean that in a way to justify the right-wingers.

[Blecht]

282. Sometimes pitchforks are necessary

This is one of those times.

[RiffRandell]

285. Absolutely not; in fact mine is held higher.

This is not a gray issue. It's pretty simple.

Fact: Vaccines don't cause autism.

Fact: People who don't vaccinate their kids are putting others at SERIOUS risk.

I feel for the poor mother I saw on the national news tonight who is already struggling caring for her child who has cystic fibrosis with a compromised immune system.

That alone is stressful enough (understatement) but now she has to worry about measles because of idiots that believe in holistic/religious/whatever bullshit woo?

No way.

[Ms. Toad]

297. I am pleased that there are 90 members of DU,

as of this post time, who are willing to affirm that the artificial binary distinction (vaxx/anti-vaxx) and demonization of those deemed in the anti-vaxx camp is not helpful to the ultimate goal of ensuring widespread vaccination of those who can safely be vaccinated against deadly illnesses.

[whereisjustice]

298. Agree,

Rather than let things get pushed to the wall by the centrifugal force of fear (fear of vaccines, fear of no vaccines), the smart thing to do is calmly understand what is motivating the fear, build trust with facts and gradually displace fear with the comfort of doing the right thing in the interest of public health.

I'll concede that's way more boring than pitchforks and torches




.