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[SoLeftIAmRight]

This message was self-deleted by its author (SoLeftIAmRight) on Tue Feb 3, 2015, 04:51 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Warren Stupidity]

1. Of course we should continue to investigate and advance epidemiology.

Is there a single "pro-vac-er" here who disagrees?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

6. I fear the harsh discourse serves no purpose.

An exploration of the still to us mysterious biological systems of the world might engender a more receptive response.

[Warren Stupidity]

15. Oh so we should coddle the idiots?

Yeah that has worked out well in the past.

No. They should be shamed.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

20. you have move away from my point

Have I suggested that one should treat anyone in an indulgent or overprotective way?

NO

You want to fight with me - someone with similar beliefs and desires.

You have made my point better than I myself.

[Warren Stupidity]

22. "I fear the harsh discourse...."

<whatever/>

[SoLeftIAmRight]

25. I hate to be so banal

more flies with honey

[LanternWaste]

30. Twain's and Voltaire's scathing assaults on the sub-literate idiots attracted more flies than honey

Mark Twain's and Voltaire's scathing assaults on the sub-literate idiots attracted more flies than honey did...

[haikugal]

34. Who wants to attract flies?

[LanternWaste]

38. Individuals who tell us they hate to be banal, I'd guess... :)

Individuals who tell us they hate to be banal, I'd guess...

[SoLeftIAmRight]

57. Twain and Voltaire...

Twain's and Voltaire's assaults were directed at the centers power and they were not sub-literate idiots.

Try some Anatole France.

Care to private your deep thoughts on the two great men?

[bettyellen]

31. don't forget "the mysterious biogogical system", like you did our eradication of smallpox.

Banal, indeed.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

33. sorry - I did not get your point

could you spell it out for me - slowly

[PasadenaTrudy]

42. Bees not flies! n/t

[SoLeftIAmRight]

49. I have found it true with bears also.

I love living in Colorado.

[PasadenaTrudy]

50. Lol!

True true.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

76. Maybe if this wasnt what was at risk, we could avoid the harsh discourse

http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/please-vax-your-kids#.jc9lmD1ZW

[SoLeftIAmRight]

78. I hope you change some minds.

Be well

[Hekate]

88. For those whose minds are made up, no evidence is sufficient. I remember that epidemic.

Anyway, as me old mother used to say: Convince a fool against his will; he's of the same opinion still.

And as I myself say about those who do great harm in the world regardless (such as, in this instance, anti-vaxxers): You can try sweet reason and scientific evidence, but if that fails after a short course, you just have to stop them.

I've lost patience with idiots. They need to be stopped. And one way to do that is crack down on unvaccinated children's parents at the time they enroll in school -- just make it mandatory for school enrollment. The only exceptions: a doctor's detailed letter citing other health issues, or a letter from a minister of a historically recognized religious sect that forbids medication. (The religious are prepared to take the risks.) The numbers of both should be quite small enough to not skew herd immunity. But this business of "personal beliefs" that is simply a cover for gross ignorance has got to stop.

Harsh discourse my rosy roseola. The self-centered idiots are quite prepared to let their children and others be at risk because they are ignorant of the laws of science. In criminal law it has long been said that "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." I hate to tell you, the same thing goes for the laws of science.

[NuclearDem]

2. I doubt you're going to find anyone here who argues

that vaccination and epidemiology don't have room to expand and improve.

[lame54]

3. I'm not prejudiced, but

[SoLeftIAmRight]

37. are you sure?

One can always benefit from more introspection.

[lame54]

58. Is gravity real - let's have a discussion

[SoLeftIAmRight]

59. Yes yes yes

How is the force of gravity carried?
Is this a meaningful question?
9.8 m/s seems familiar - what is the equivalent on the moon? Sure can't pull it up now.
maybe bing it later
Newton, Einstein, quantum - any preference?

or do you jest?

[lame54]

60. i didn't ask how - i asked if it exist in the first place...

apparently every topic has a counter argument

"And now the advocate for kicking puppies."

[SoLeftIAmRight]

61. not sure what puppies have to do with it

Does gravity exist?
Is that your question?

Answer:

We don't really know. We can define what it is as a field of influence, because we know how it operates in the universe. And some scientists think that it is made up of particles called gravitons which travel at the speed of light. However, if we are to be honest, we do not know what gravity "is" in any fundamental way - we only know how it behaves.

Here is what we do know...

Gravity is a force of attraction that exists between any two masses, any two bodies, any two particles. Gravity is not just the attraction between objects and the Earth. It is an attraction that exists between all objects, everywhere in the universe. Sir Isaac Newton (1642 -- 1727) discovered that a force is required to change the speed or direction of movement of an object. He also realized that the force called "gravity" must make an apple fall from a tree, or humans and animals live on the surface of our spinning planet without being flung off. Furthermore, he deduced that gravity forces exist between all objects.

Newton's "law" of gravity is a mathematical description of the way bodies are observed to attract one another, based on many scientific experiments and observations. The gravitational equation says that the force of gravity is proportional to the product of the two masses (m1 and m2), and inversely proportional to the square of the distance (r) between their centers of mass. Mathematically speaking,

F=Gm1m2 / r2,

where G is called the Gravitational Constant. It has a value of 6.6726 x 10-11 m3 kg-1 s-2.

The effect of gravity extends from each object out into space in all directions, and for an infinite distance. However, the strength of the gravitational force reduces quickly with distance. Humans are never aware of the Sun's gravity pulling them, because the pull is so small at the distance between the Earth and Sun. Yet, it is the Sun's gravity that keeps the Earth in its orbit! Neither are we aware of the pull of lunar gravity on our bodies, but the Moon's gravity is responsible for the ocean tides on Earth.

[lame54]

62. Wow...

Just Wow

[SoLeftIAmRight]

63. you like beating dead horses?

just saying

[lame54]

64. I think a dead horse would catch on quicker than you

[SoLeftIAmRight]

65. catch on to what?

all you have expressed is anger

Do you have a point to make?

[kcr]

72. The fact that gravity exists, for one n/t

[SoLeftIAmRight]

73. stop the bad thinking

I pulled the gravity stuff from a NASA site. You did not like it because you are not thinking clearly.

[OilemFirchen]

82. You have a responsiblity to DU to provide a cite.

Here, then, for the sake of the owners: StarChild Question of the Month for February 2001

Please show some respect next time.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

83. thank you

I found it on a NASA site

[GoneOffShore]

84. Well that was 15 minutes of my life I'm not going to get back.

Word salad worthy of LG.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

87. You can thank NASA

Simple cut and paste from their site.

Seems you shot the wrong person.

Thinking clearly?

[Are_grits_groceries]

4. I have always supported more research into vaccines.

Vaccines for many diseases probably can be improved. The science shouldn't stop with the first viable batch.

That said, would you rather have the huge outbreaks of measles and other diseases that vaccines have prevented?
Scientists will never produce a vaccine without some side effects or drawbacks. If we wait on something like that, many will needlessly die. They have to test and refine until an acceptable vaccine is found. That should be released and more research done.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

7. NO

Why would you even ask?

I made my position clear.

[MohRokTah]

5. You must think those of us who advocate harshly for vaccination are as stupid as the anti-vaxxers.

Advances are constantly made.

At the same time we have tools that are effective and safe for some very deadly diseases.

We are on the brink of eradicating polio in the wild. IF we can overcome a little anti-vaxxer bullshit in a few third world areas, we will successfully eradicate. Time is working against us though due to the fact that there are clusters of people where herd immunity is now currently broken in the US and a single case introduced into one of those clusters will set us back decades. This is due to first world anti-vaxxer bullshit.

MMRV could successfully eradicate all four diseases in the wild if the same methods used to eradicate smallpox were also used.

We have safe and effective tools now. It's foolish not to use what is currently in our medical arsenal while medical science continues to advance.

[still_one]

9. This should not even be open to debate.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

10. It is not what you do...

Yell at a drunk...

The people that choose to not do what is best will not hear you yell at them.

It issue is much too important to use techniques that will only further close there minds.

[MohRokTah]

12. Trying to have rational discussions with the anti-vaxxers has been the approach for over a decade

It didn't work.

Now herd immunity is broken.

The time for talk is over. It's now time for action.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

13. Time for talk in Iraq was over...

Action had to be taken...

Go back and join the herd.

Or, you could learn to reach out in another way. I also have trouble finding common ground with people who think differently. If it is important one must be creative.

[Warren Stupidity]

17. that is such bullshit, didn't you feel just a little ashamed hitting enter?

[SoLeftIAmRight]

21. No - not even a little

You are fighting with someone who agrees with you.

Take a deep breath and explore the reasons you have turned me off and consider your probabilities that you could ever move someone that does not agree with you.

[NuclearDem]

19. ...

[SoLeftIAmRight]

23. cute... but not very constructive

be well

[NuclearDem]

24. You tried to compare vaccinations with the Iraq War.

That warranted an implied facehoof.

[MohRokTah]

26. Talk about your non-sequiters!

[SoLeftIAmRight]

28. see how quickly the the thread was moved from the original idea

that was the point

AND YOU - forge on... non-sequiter - kettle a little black?

How far will you go?

[Warren Stupidity]

41. You moved it there.

So yes, I guess you proved your point about yourself. You are easily distracted.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

67. no, my point was that you will waste time and never...

say anything constructive.

[xmas74]

74. No, you don't yell at a drunk.

You detain a drunk, assuring that they have a safe place to pass out and do not allow them to leave until they sober.

[Avalux]

8. There isn't a scientist worth their salt who isn't constantly trying to find more answers.

I will say this again, as I've done many times before.

Scientific theory is developed based on the BEST AVAILABLE evidence. Evidence is what we need, and evidence is what we strive for, tirelessly.

[MohRokTah]

11. I look forward to the day when an immunization mechanism capable of dealing with the mutable nature

of the influenza virus!

Think about it. An annual flu shot that is actually effective somewhere in the upper 90th percentile!

We would be able to go years with no recorded outbreaks amongst humans!

[SoLeftIAmRight]

16. Yes Yes Yes

The flu will hit us very hard someday if we do not get ahead of it.

[Avalux]

27. ME too!! I wrote this in 2005 and would be honored if you'd read it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=228x5742

[NightWatcher]

14. I've got 5 of those on the list. What do I win?

There are private and public groups that are spending private and tax funds to conduct ongoing research. Every week I receive a newsletter or email about a promising new research trial or medicine. What we know about auto immune illnesses I think are dwarfed by what we do not know.

They say what I have is not strictly genetic/heredity in nature, but my dad has nearly the exact same thing. They say it can be triggered by medicines or trauma, but they don't know exactly why.

I have years where I want to do as much research as I can, and then I have years where I don't care what or why it happens and I just take the damn pills and hope to avoid a flare up.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

29. Thank You and...

I wish you well. We know so little and act like we know so much.

Our bodies are so complex that I shiver at the mystery of how they work.

[3catwoman3]

18. We learn things all the time, and in 500 years...

...we will have answers to things that are mysterious now.

Should we not employ the good tools we have now because they are not perfect tools? Does anyone really think the tools will be perfect in the future.

The HIB immunization alone has made a major impact in the safety of examining my pediatric patients. It was introduced about 10 years into my nurse practitioner career. HIB (hemophilus influenza B) can cause, among many things, a very dangerous throat infection called epiglottitis, in which the epiglottis (the "trapdoor" that closes over the airway to keep liquids and solids from going down "the wrong pipe) get infected and swollen and thereby obstruct the airway. The early symptoms of this disease are quite similar to croup, which is generally not nearly so serious.

We were taught, prior to the HIB immunization, that is we suspected epiglottitis instead of croup, we should NOT attempt to examine that child's mouth because the very act of using a tongue blade to look at the back of the throat could cause the epiglottis to go into spasm and block the airway right there in your exam room - a terrifying prospect, and always left us unable to do a proper, throrough exam. The alternative approach was a lateral neck X-ray to look for enlarged soft tissues. How many kids were exposed to unnecessary X-rays because it wasn't safe to look in their throats?

Since the advent of the HIB vaccine, I can fully examine my young patients without worrying that I am going to cause a respiratory arrest. What a relief for both the parents and for me. I cannot remember the last time I had to order a lateral neck film.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

40. Thank you for the thoughtful and informative post.

It is sad that there were so few with the same flavor.

[Bluenorthwest]

32. I would like there to be more vaccines, starting with a vaccine against HIV please.

People who mindlessly spread mistrust in the very things we should long for help to slow development of such protections and cures. Any person with half a brain or half a heart would devoutly wish to see more vaccines protecting us from terrible diseases.

[SidDithers]

35. "mindlessly promote"...

The current vaccine protocols have decades of research behind them. They're not being mindlessly promoted.

FFS.

Sid

[SoLeftIAmRight]

36. This thread demonstrates clearly that rational thought...

This thread demonstrates clearly that rational thought is often not displayed when this issue comes up.

If one is objective, one must come to the conclusion that their are people that need to gain a better understand of this issue. I find that doing something like calling you a "dumb ass" would only lead to more useless typing.

Mr. SidDithers, I ofter find you insightful comments food for thought. You show brilliance and a depth of thought that is rarely displayed. Why you would waste your time on this lost thread is very puzzling to me. Be well

[MohRokTah]

43. You argue for carrying on as we have for the past decade.

Talking doesn't work with anti-vaxxer morons.

The time for talk is over. The time for action is upon us. CPS needs to remove the children from the households of these morons and vaccinate them.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

46. I like your responce.

What do you think about building a wall around Salt Lake City and sending them all there?

[MohRokTah]

55. Forced confinement in their homes with zero physical contact is adequate. eom

[Johonny]

39. Question: Do I think this thread is a anti vaxxer troll

answer: yes

so now on to step two where you get accused of high jacking the pointless thread with no value to my life.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

44. What does it feel like to be wrong?

See, my title was most unhelpful is fostering proper discourse.

I am anti-meanness and think this issue does not bring out the best is some people.

Are you such a person?

[Bluenorthwest]

68. I think creating doubt about life saving vaccines is mean. I think it is meanness to foster fear

where there is no need to fear. I think it is more than mean to do anything which slows the progress toward more and better vaccines and treatments.
It's the diseases that are our mortal enemies, not the treatments and vaccines. It's mean to tell people otherwise. Reckless and mean.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

69. Ok

Fostering understanding is good.

[Marrah_G]

45. From the CDC

(and yes, I have one of the illnesses from the list)

What research has been conducted to look at the possible link between vaccines and autoimmune diseases?
CDC takes concerns about vaccines and immune system diseases and disorders very seriously. Researchers at CDC and elsewhere have conducted studies to examine the possible link between vaccines and autoimmune conditions like MS, diabetes, and asthma. These studies have been reassuring, providing no evidence to suggest a link between vaccines and autoimmune conditions.

As part of ongoing vaccine safety surveillance, CDC will continue to conduct research to examine the effects vaccines may have on the immune system.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

48. Thank you for the thoughtful and informative post.

Be well

[PasadenaTrudy]

47. Thank you for this list

I intend to google every one of these. My doctors have always said maybe I have CFS, maybe fibromyalgia, maybe maybe...I know something isn't right, never has been. Curious to learn about all of these illnesses.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

51. I don't understand your point.

'The current vaccine protocols' are based on our current understanding of the immune system and diseases.

'Future vaccine protocols' will be based on our current understanding of the immune system and diseases at future points in time.

So I'm not sure why you feel the need to ask questions that seem to have obvious answers in one way or another.

(Edit: or say that promoting the current protocols is 'mindless'. A lot of 'mind' went into establishing the current protocols.)

[SoLeftIAmRight]

52. Two points

This issue is not easy and care should be taken to find the best ways to present information.

Also, I think we have what we have but that we should never let that be the end.
We are complex and have made and will make mistakes.

I hope we gain better understand of many issues and temper our convictions.

[JustAnotherGen]

53. Ankylosing Spondylitis is NOT caused by vaccines

My great grandfather had it.

My grandmother carried the HLA-B27 gene.

It skipped my mom and brother.

I have it.
Full blown.

Please remove it from being caused by vaccines.

My great grandfathers was triggered in the trenches in WW I. He was born in 1900. In France. Long before any vaccine existed.

And there is a portrait we have of a male ancestor in the late 1700's where he had the distinct 'hunch back'.

YES it is auto immune -

But you aren't helping us with this GENETIC disease by including it as caused by vaccines.

You aren't helping us.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

54. I hope good things for you.

Is there very much research in this area?

[JustAnotherGen]

56. Yes

And I've been to the best doctor for it - and we know that you can MANAGE this internal trigger with diet. You won't cure it and it won't go away.

Agent Orange/Blue/Pink/White/Green exposure and the genetic hand down imprinted on those soldiers exposed to their children has been ruled out to.

It's GENETIC.

If you are going to sit up here and argue with a woman who by race appearance is NOT supposed to have this and the hell I went through getting to the right doctor to even THINK to test for the gene your trying to use your 'reasons why vaccines are bad' against someone who can't even ride a bike on the road because it might shatter the GENETIC triggered abnormalities in her spine.

Stick with your vaccines - leave those of us that Kick A.S. every single day out of your convo.

[REP]

66. Most of what's listed is genetic

The OP is ridiculous.

[JustAnotherGen]

85. So he should take them all off the list!

[Marr]

70. So you want more tolerance of anti-vaccine quackery?

No.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

71. NO

I think calling them "dumb asses" will not change their mind.

[Marr]

75. Nothing will change their mind. If they cared about evidence,

they wouldn't hold that opinion.

I think ridicule sometimes serves a purpose. It marginalizes stupid ideas.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

77. I think it

sound and furry signifying nothing

[edhopper]

79. Until such a time

when any effect is shown, we should go on the assumption that they are safe and effective.
Considering that the current anti-vax agenda is based on a bogus study, I would say your questions just ad fuel to their position.
"Yes, but it could be that..." without any evidence is not a good scientific inquiry.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

81. Thank you for the thoughtful post.

Be well

[uppityperson]

80. False dichotomy combined with an insult?

List of AKC recognized breeds (which has as much in common with vaccines as that autoimmune disease list has) but no insult about being mindless.

Affenpinscher
Afghan Hound
Airedale Terrier
Akita
Alaskan Malamute
American English Coonhound
American Eskimo Dog
American Foxhound
American Staffordshire Terrier
American Water Spaniel
Anatolian Shepherd Dog
Australian Cattle Dog
Australian Shepherd
Australian Terrier
Basenji
Basset Hound
Beagle
Bearded Collie
Beauceron
Bedlington Terrier
Belgian Malinois
Belgian Sheepdog
Belgian Tervuren
Bergamasco
Bernese Mountain Dog
Bichon Frise
Black Russian Terrier
Black and Tan Coonhound
Bloodhound
Bluetick Coonhound
Boerboel
Border Collie
Border Terrier
Borzoi
Boston Terrier
Bouvier des Flandres
Boxer
Boykin Spaniel
Briard
Brittany
Brussels Griffon
Bull Terrier
Bulldog
Bullmastiff
Cairn Terrier
Canaan Dog
Cane Corso
Cardigan Welsh Corgi
Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
Cesky Terrier
Chesapeake Bay Retriever
Chihuahua
Chinese Crested
Chinese Shar-Pei
Chinook
Chow Chow
Cirneco dell'Etna
Clumber Spaniel
Cocker Spaniel
Collie
Coton de Tulear
Curly-Coated Retriever
Dachshund
Dalmatian
Dandie Dinmont Terrier
Doberman Pinscher
Dogue de Bordeaux
English Cocker Spaniel
English Foxhound
English Setter
English Springer Spaniel
English Toy Spaniel
Entlebucher Mountain Dog
Field Spaniel
Finnish Lapphund
Finnish Spitz
Flat-Coated Retriever
French Bulldog
German Pinscher
German Shepherd Dog
German Shorthaired Pointer
German Wirehaired Pointer
Giant Schnauzer
Glen of Imaal Terrier
Golden Retriever
Gordon Setter
Great Dane
Great Pyrenees
Greater Swiss Mountain Dog
Greyhound
Harrier
Havanese
Ibizan Hound
Icelandic Sheepdog
Irish Red and White Setter
Irish Setter
Irish Terrier
Irish Water Spaniel
Irish Wolfhound
Italian Greyhound
Japanese Chin
Keeshond
Kerry Blue Terrier
Komondor
Kuvasz
Labrador Retriever
Lakeland Terrier
Leonberger
Lhasa Apso
Lowchen
Maltese
Manchester Terrier
Mastiff
Miniature Bull Terrier
Miniature Pinscher
Miniature Schnauzer
Neapolitan Mastiff
Newfoundland
Norfolk Terrier
Norwegian Buhund
Norwegian Elkhound
Norwegian Lundehund
Norwich Terrier
Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever
Old English Sheepdog
Otterhound
Papillon
Parson Russell Terrier
Pekingese
Pembroke Welsh Corgi
Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen
Pharaoh Hound
Plott
Pointer
Polish Lowland Sheepdog
Pomeranian
Poodle
Portuguese Podengo Pequeno
Portuguese Water Dog
Pug
Puli
Pyrenean Shepherd
Rat Terrier
Redbone Coonhound
Rhodesian Ridgeback
Rottweiler
Russell Terrier
Saluki
Samoyed
Schipperke
Scottish Deerhound
Scottish Terrier
Sealyham Terrier
Shetland Sheepdog
Shiba Inu
Shih Tzu
Siberian Husky
Silky Terrier
Skye Terrier
Smooth Fox Terrier
Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier
Spanish Water Dog
Spinone Italiano
St. Bernard
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
Standard Schnauzer
Sussex Spaniel
Swedish Vallhund
Tibetan Mastiff
Tibetan Spaniel
Tibetan Terrier
Toy Fox Terrier
Treeing Walker Coonhound
Vizsla
Weimaraner
Welsh Springer Spaniel
Welsh Terrier
West Highland White Terrier
Whippet
Wire Fox Terrier
Wirehaired Pointing Griffon
Wirehaired Vizsla
Xoloitzcuintli
Yorkshire Terrier

[SoLeftIAmRight]

86. helping people change bad ideas might be as complex as the...

as the immune system.

It could be true that consciousness is very analogous to the immune system.

Bad ideas are like a virus. It takes awareness to rid them from your mind.

It might be that a data set would have different impact on different people.

I do like your stretched logic and thoughtful writing.

[Hekate]

89. Goading and goading and goading. You having fun with this?

I'd say it was fascinating, except it's not. TTFN.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

90. I did find it sad.

This is serious issue.

I hope for better discourse.

Be well