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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy Jeff Bezos’ Amazon Is More Evil Than Walmart and McDonald’s
1. At Amazon, any a particular employee’s promotion isn’t his or her boss’s decision, but rather, depends on whether that boss can convince his or her peers that an employee is promotion-worthy. In other words, not only does an AMZN worker need to suck up to his or her supervisor, but it would behoove them to suck up to every other boss in the building. This can make office politics very tricky — as well as cut-throat — in that it allows someone to keep a better employee (i.e. competition) ineligible for any kind of advancement where they might become a threat.
2. The average warehouse worker, which is a huge segment of the AMZN employee base, earns an average annual paycheck of $23,582. That’s on par with Walmart’s lousy pay. In some of those warehouses, Amazon employees were forced to raise a serious stink before air conditioners were installed. (Note: $23,582 = $11.33/hour, and if that's a typical wage average, it's right-skewed, meaning the typical worker makes less but the 'average' is raised by a minority of higher-paid workers)
3. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, Jeff Bezos has created a culture at AMZN where any customer complaint is presumed to mean an employee has made a mistake, or an employee is ultimately somehow at fault. Example: Any emailed customer complaint that Jeff Bezos receives — and apparently that’s a great number of them — are simply forwarded to the appropriate individual with nothing more than a question mark added by the CEO. A resolution and a plan of action to prevent the problem from arising again is expected within hours; there’s no one at AMZN who doesn’t know what the lone “?” actually means...
And make no mistake — Jeff Bezos isn’t simply being efficient by adding a sole question mark to complaint e-mails. He uses plenty of words when he feels it’s merited. He has been credited with saying the words “Are you lazy or just incompetent?” and “You’re a total idiot, but do it anyway” plenty of times.
There are better ways to get someone’s attention, and it might be less humiliating to simply fire an employee who’s truly an idiot, incompetent or lazy. Under the right circumstances, harsh words like that can lead someone to commit suicide.
Unfortunately, Jeff Bezos doesn’t seem to have any other way of making his point.
http://investorplace.com/2013/12/jeff-bezos-amazon-amzn-worst-company/2/#.VNLyz2ctGgw
and here's a comment from someone who worked in one of bezos' warehouses (the ones that are locked and allowed to heat up to over 100 degrees while compassionate Bezos keeps ambulances stationed outside to take away any workers who drop from dehydration)
AMZNhorrorshow's avatar
As a former masters level manager for AMZN, I could not even bear to watch what was done to the hourly warehouse workers, let alone participate. Worst job I ever had. I have never seen such contempt for workers, and I've managed globally, including China! Young, naive MBA's can bring their dogs to work at AMZN Seattle, but warehouse workers don't even have time to get to their lunch and back within 30 mins, in a million square foot bldg during a 12 hour shift, and that's just a minor problem. ( Most Chinese workers, btw, have a chef on the premises)
All of the sheeple excuses about "at least they have a job," plays right into the hands of Jeff "Beelzebub" Bezos...but as long as you get free shipping, who cares.( until they eat the competition, and end it) I am not religious, but that place made me believe in evil! True story.
http://investorplace.com/2013/12/jeff-bezos-amazon-amzn-worst-company/2/#.VNLyz2ctGgw
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MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)You can post these stories all day and all night.
I am an Amazon prime member and I will NOT be giving that up.
I am up to my neck with the outrage. I have outrage fatigue. I am all outraged out.
No more.
When you figure out how I can live without putting money in the Koch Brothers' pockets, I'll consider a boycott on Amazon. You can't though, because oil is a fungible commodity and I will forever put money in the Koch Brothers' pockets.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)your outrage fatigue is selective.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)I'd have to eat grass and freeze to do so.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)give up amazon.
I don't think it's that hard to avoid putting money in the Koch bros pockets, nor do I find it hard not to put money in Bezos the pig's pocket.
I'm going to spend $100 on Amazon tonight for every post where you try to trash them tonight.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Take it up with the outsourcers.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)This gives Amazon plausible deniability about your treatment--and it means you have no labor rights, for you are an "independent contractor." No health care, no vacation time, no scheduled raises, no promotion track, no route to a full-time or permanent job, no regular schedule, no job protection, and--of course--no union.
Bezos would rather get Ebola virus than be infected with a union in his realm, and he has gone all out with intimidation tactics, plus hiring a notorious union-busting firm to crush any whisper of worker organization.
http://www.hightowerlowdown.org/node/3724#.VNL2jGctGgx
Many warehouse workers are hired for temporary positions by Integrity Staffing Solutions, or ISS, and are told that if they work hard they may be converted to permanent positions with Amazon, current and former employees said....
Temporary employees interviewed said few people in their working groups actually made it to a permanent Amazon position. Instead, they said they were pushed harder and harder to work faster and faster until they were terminated, they quit or they got injured. Those interviewed say turnover at the warehouse is high and many hires don't last more than a few months.
The supply of temporary workers keeps Amazon's warehouse fully staffed without the expense of a permanent workforce that expects raises and good benefits. Using temporary employees in general also helps reduce the prospect that employees will organize a union that pushes for better treatment because the employees are in constant flux, labor experts say. And Amazon limits its liability for workers' compensation and unemployment insurance because most of the workers don't work for Amazon, they work for the temp agency.
http://www.mcall.com/news/local/amazon/mc-allentown-amazon-complaints-20110917-story.html#page=2
It's a scam. Fuck Bezos, fuck Amazon. May Puget Sound rise up and swallow them both.
Like I said, good to know how shallow support for labor is here.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)than Amazon.
So Amazon is two degrees separated from the warehouse workers.
These warehouse companies do a lot of work for a lot of companies well beyond Amazon.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)warehouses, and everyone knows that using temp companies is a dodge.
EVERYONE KNOWS. THAT BULLSHIT DOESN'T CONVINCE ANYONE.
And it sure doesn't make anyone believe that the Democratic Party represents labor.
Many warehouse workers are hired for temporary positions by Integrity Staffing Solutions, or ISS, and are told that if they work hard they may be converted to permanent positions with Amazon, current and former employees said...
Temporary employees interviewed said few people in their working groups actually made it to a permanent Amazon position. Instead, they said they were pushed harder and harder to work faster and faster until they were terminated, they quit or they got injured. Those interviewed say turnover at the warehouse is high and many hires don't last more than a few months.
The supply of temporary workers keeps Amazon's warehouse fully staffed without the expense of a permanent workforce that expects raises and good benefits. Using temporary employees in general also helps reduce the prospect that employees will organize a union that pushes for better treatment because the employees are in constant flux, labor experts say. And Amazon limits its liability for workers' compensation and unemployment insurance because most of the workers don't work for Amazon, they work for the temp agency.
http://articles.mcall.com/2011-09-18/news/mc-allentown-amazon-complaints-20110917_1_warehouse-workers-heat-stress-brutal-heat
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)But have fun pushing it any way.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)no-benefit workers are sweated to provide "convenience" for the upper middle to upper class.
If so, it's too bad for the vast majority of the country.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)
City Lights
(25,171 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)trust me 
Like-
Home Depot
Hobby Lobby
Hardeys?
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)I cannot boycott Home Depot because Lowes is fucked up and never has what I need.
Ramses
(721 posts)Not much else to say to that.
I won't give up free 2-day delivery for anything in the world.
And the prices are great for my unemployed, in-debt ass.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)but if you're so unemployed and indebted, why are you buying stuff online?
Ykcutnek
(1,305 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Ykcutnek
(1,305 posts)Clothing, coffee, toiletries, used textbooks, etc.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)So I won't judge them, and I won't judge you either. Especially since I've been known to shop for music and books on Amazon myself, though I'm not proud of the fact.
Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)It expired in November and I did all but one of my purchases in a nearby larger city. I did this because Amazons Kids toys price in 2013 were through the roof. Made me angry and I delayed the prime membership for November & December of 2014. I finally gave in in January because the no postage really helped plus the speed. The 2 day delivery also helped me with my small business. The locals are too expensive and I can't drive the 65 miles every time I need something.
I don't like Bezos and his day will come. I can remember when Gibsons was the place to buy and they are gone. Then there was Kmart and they are almost gone and now Walmart and McDonalds at starting to feel the pressure. I don't like what they do but lets save our boycotts for the things that really matter and not cut off our nose to spite our face.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)get worse.
Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)They screw over a lot of people until a bigger player comes along ans squashes them and the new corp continuse to screw the little people.
Well said
Saucepan of Kerbango
(48 posts)Love Amazon Prime, and equally fed up with constant outrage.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)(or rather from the vendors who list on Amazon) because their prices and selection are admittedly quite good.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)I love it and order a lot on Amazon. The only thing I don't is books because I like Barns and Noble. But to get free shipping while saving gas and the planet is right to me. Also I like the movies and TV Shows on Prime.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Amazon. like Wal-Mart, keeps its prices low by hyper-exploiting its workers. Yes, when you buy many things, from toilet paper to oil, you might be buying from the Koch industries, but you do not NEED what you buy on Amazon. It might be convenient, but buying it on Amazon is not required. You choose to do it and so must rationalize your choice as the only thing you can do.
The problem in the US, fantasies of American exceptionalism aside, is that American workers have suffered from stagnant wages since the reign of Racist Ronnie Reagan. Because so many workers are barely making it, shopping at the cheapest place is often a survival tactic.
The answer, get off the couch and organize. It was done in the 1930s and it can be done again. Are you just outraged, or are you depressed because the right seems to be winning and the 1% seem to be unstoppable?
Did you vote in 2014? Are you trying to organize your fellow workers? Are you marching when the 1% attack you?
If you answered no to any of these questions you are cooperating in your own oppression.
Stop being fatigued and start doing something.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)No response to the argument? I expected more, or at least something. I suppose if you have no real response silence is indeed the wise choice.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Good grief. Was he that magical that we couldn't fix what he changed after 40 years? Are we still going to be in the same pickle 200 years after Reagan's death?
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Reagan's success, in my view, was that the debate in the US was reframed during his presidency. Wages are still stagnant because any attempt at raising wages for workers is met with the argument that the economy cannot afford higher wages. Except, of course, for the 1% who always need more to create the jobs that they are not, in fact, creating.
The fact that unionization in the US is at its lowest level since the 1920's is ignored by the politicians and media who persist in painting unions as the real problem with the economy. The US economy was far healthier in the 40s-60s because wages and levels of unionization were high for workers while taxes on the 1% were high enough to discourage speculative money schemes.
Actual productive industry has been replaced by a service economy with minimally waged jobs replacing living wage jobs.
We have minimal electoral participation in the US. partly because, as Ralph Nader observed, the 2 major parties are merely the opposite sides of the same corporate coin.
200 years from Reagan's death, we might be discussing the coming electoral campaign between Galacticus Bush and Starfighter Clinton. Scary, but possible.
My opinions
samsingh
(17,595 posts)
Quackers
(2,256 posts)"here's a comment from someone who worked in one of bezos' warehouses (the ones that are locked and allowed to heat up to over 100 degrees while compassionate Bezos keeps ambulances stationed outside to take away any workers who drop from dehydration"
Where is this Amazon warehouse that locks employees inside, that is over 100 degrees, has ambulances on standby, and doesn't allow employees to get at least a 30 minute lunch?
Just from reading this, it sounds like hyperbole. If this is indeed happening here in the United States, it should be reported to the proper government agency for investigation.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)In fact, when you toil for the man, don't even expect air conditioning. Three summers ago, a series of heat waves hit Pennsylvania's Lehigh Valley, and Amazon's cement warehouse there became literally a sweatshop. Yet, workers not only were expected to endure the heat that reportedly rose as high as 114 degrees, but also were prodded to maintain the usual relentless pace dictated by the corporate timers. Many couldn't make it... so Amazon had to adapt.
Slow the pace? Don't be ridiculous! Instead, the bosses hired paramedics to tend to workers who, in effect, melted down. As reported by The Morning Call in Allentown:
"Amazon arranged to have paramedics parked in ambulances outside, ready to treat any workers who dehydrated or suffered other forms of heat stress. Those who couldn't quickly cool off and return to work were sent home or taken out in stretchers and wheelchairs and transported to area hospitals."
http://www.hightowerlowdown.org/node/3724#.VNL2jGctGgx
lmer Goris spent a year working in Amazon.com's Lehigh Valley warehouse, where books, CDs and various other products are packed and shipped to customers who order from the world's largest online retailer..
The 34-year-old Allentown resident, who has worked in warehouses for more than 10 years, said he quit in July because he was frustrated with the heat and demands that he work mandatory overtime. Working conditions at the warehouse got worse earlier this year, especially during summer heat waves when heat in the warehouse soared above 100 degrees, he said.
He got light-headed, he said, and his legs cramped, symptoms he never experienced in previous warehouse jobs. One hot day, Goris said, he saw a co-worker pass out at the water fountain. On other hot days, he saw paramedics bring people out of the warehouse in wheelchairs and on stretchers.
"I never felt like passing out in a warehouse and I never felt treated like a piece of crap in any other warehouse but this one," Goris said. "They can do that because there aren't any jobs in the area."
Goris' complaints are not unique...An emergency room doctor in June called federal regulators to report an "unsafe environment" after he treated several Amazon warehouse workers for heat-related problems. The doctor's report was echoed by warehouse workers who also complained to regulators, including a security guard who reported seeing pregnant employees suffering in the heat...
Goris, the Allentown resident who worked as a permanent Amazon employee, said high temperatures were handled differently at other warehouses in which he worked. For instance, loading dock doors on opposite sides of those warehouses were left open to let fresh air circulate and reduce the temperature when it got too hot, he said. When Amazon workers asked in meetings why this wasn't done at the Amazon warehouse, managers said the company was worried about theft, Goris said.
"Imagine if it's 98 degrees outside and you're in a warehouse with every single dock door closed," Goris said.
Computers monitored the heat index in the building and Amazon employees received notification about the heat index by email. Goris said one day the heat index, a measure that considers humidity, exceeded 110 degrees on the third floor.
"I remember going up there to check the location of an item," Goris said. "I lasted two minutes, because I could not breathe up there."
http://www.mcall.com/news/local/amazon/mc-allentown-amazon-complaints-20110917-story.html#page=1
appalachiablue
(41,131 posts)theft?); a severe fire broke out on the upper floors; immigrant women workers tried to get out of the burning bldg. through the elevator, windows & fire escape. Dozens died; their bodies were displayed on the sidewalk outside for identification. The garment factory owner received a light fine & penalty; several weeks later he was found locking the doors again, little to no charge. Frances Perkins who was working nearby observed the tragedy. She later became FDR's Labor Secy. & helped enact strong policies & programs for desperate US workers during the Depression.
Jeff Bezos, SEATTLE Sweatshop CEO, Amazon. Military Defense Corp. owner. Washington Post newspaper owner.
NO, NO, NO, NO WAY, NO HOW
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)I hear people like working there. 
I depend on Amazon for so much. No way I am giving it up.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Nobody in the country can completely boycott the Koch Brothers since oil is a fungible commodity.
So we have to pick and choose.
And I with you, Amazon is one I have to choose not to boycott. Mostly because of how much of my business is actually with smaller companies doing business on Amazon.
I haven't done business with Walmart in two decades.
OTher companies are no problem boycotting because I never did business with them any way (McDonalds, Olive Garden, etc.).
But I ahve to draw the line with certain comapnies and Amazon is one of those.
Liberaller than thous won't alter that, either.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)But you can't boycott Amazon, because you want to use its services.
Regardless of its labor practices.
And because I called you on it, you call me names.
Amusing. But not for the Party, the country, or labor.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)I also like to use Etsy because of the number of people doing their own businesses. I have gotten to know and communicate with growing companies on both sites. AND I get some great deals...plus I get some not so great deals that are made up for by the convenience factor.
There are now 4 posts on Page 1 attacking Amazon. You are right, there are almost no companies that really support workers.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)business that deserves to be attacked.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)madfloridian
(88,117 posts)I did not want to give expensive or personal stuff in these cases, and these were just beautiful. I have had great luck there. Amazon is my lifesaver for most anything but food. They are way too high on that.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Amazon's labor practices?
I'm really surprised to hear you say that.
The Florida "Amazon" is a giant warehouse, same as all Amazon's other giant warehouses.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)You surely do NOT have to support public education. Most Democrats don't, you know.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)education.
They apparently don't support labor in general either.
I support public education and I support labor, and I don't think they're two separate things.
Knowing of your support for public education, I was rather shocked to hear you defend amazon.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Your money goes to a company that abuses its workers.
Some progressive attitude that it.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)but I could find a person in every walk of life who works who will give me a story about how they hate their job. We have to stop this somewhere and Amazon seems to be that stop sign. We have to SHOP SOMEWHERE. We can't live on the wilderness....at least most of us can't.
Godhumor
(6,437 posts)When stripped of the angry framing:
11.33/hr for warehouse work
Promotions are earned via cross functional input (consensus based advocate promotions are widely considered a best practice)
Expectation to improve as a whole (? Is not a negative but an indication that an issue should be solvable on a permanent basis)
Everything else listed is either hyperbole, conjecture or anecdotal.
I would hardly say this paints Amazon as an evil empire.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)empire status?
On June 10, an OSHA worker heard the following message on the agency's complaint hotline from an emergency room doctor at Lehigh Valley Hospital-Cedar Crest: "I'd like to report an unsafe environment with a[n] Amazon facility in Fogelsville ... Several patients have come in the last couple days with heat-related injuries."
Amazon and ISS workers said that policy changed earlier this year about the same time OSHA began asking questions, though precisely when the policy changed is not clear. When heat is excessive, workers can now go home early without pay and it won't jeopardize their jobs. Previously, workers who left early due to heat-related symptoms faced demerits that could ultimately result in termination if they didn't provide doctor's notes saying they can't work in excessive heat, workers said.
http://www.mcall.com/news/local/amazon/mc-allentown-amazon-complaints-20110917-story.html#page=2
How about stealing employees' time by making them go through inspections of their persons unpaid, and using their lunch break and after-work time to do it.
Or how about using temps to fill the warehouse so you can work them without providing any benefits, fire them at will, and have no workers' comp responsibility if they're injured?
Godhumor
(6,437 posts)Unsafe environment was fixed and by all indications fixed well.
Amazon is hardly the only company that has pre or post shift procedures. Almost every single factory or warehouse setting, even those that are unionized, has unpaid set up or breakdown time, including security checks.
Contractors are contractors. I find it curious that you think they have no responsibility for injury though. All workers are covered under workers' comp laws. Amazon would, at the very least, be co-liable with the staffing agency. Considering Amazon pays comp premium insurance, I would say they haven't exactly shied away from that either.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)it, ISIS, is Bezos' pet, and I have no idea what you mean by "Amazon pays comp premium insurance".
Amazon warehouse workers fight for unemployment benefits
Online retail giant's Lehigh Valley temporary-staffing agency fights aggressively to keep workers from collecting unemployment.
Months after she suffered heat exhaustion and lost her job in an Amazon.com warehouse in Breinigsville, Rosemarie Fritchman sat in a small conference room pleading for unemployment benefits of about $160 a week.
Opposing her at the hearing before a state referee, who would decide whether Fritchman was eligible for the benefit, was a human resources agent representing her employer.
This scene has become commonplace since Amazon opened a Lehigh Valley warehouse in 2010. But the human resources agent is not from Amazon. She works for Integrity Staffing Solutions, a company paid by Amazon to recruit workers who unload boxes, process orders and pack shipments for the giant online retailer.
The temporary staffing firm plays a crucial role in Amazon warehouses around the country, especially during the busy Christmas shopping season. Its relationship with Amazon has made Integrity Staffing Solutions the biggest temporary-employment firm in the Lehigh Valley and one of the fastest-growing agencies of its kind in the country.
Part of its role is fighting to keep its workers from collecting unemployment benefits after they have lost a job at Amazon.
Integrity Staffing Solutions is involved in more unemployment compensation appeal hearings — hundreds per year — than almost all other employers in Pennsylvania, according to a state source with access to the confidential records. It even surpasses Walmart, the state's largest private-sector employer that has more than 50,000 workers in Pennsylvania, the source said.
In the first nine months of 2012, Integrity Staffing Solutions was involved in more than 200 unemployment compensation appeals, the source said. No other temporary-staffing firm in Pennsylvania comes close to that number.
The practice reveals one of the ways Amazon keeps costs down and one tactic used by a temporary staffing firm to win Amazon's continued business.
http://articles.mcall.com/2012-12-17/business/mc-amazon-temporary-workers-unemployment-20121215_1_amazon-warehouse-lehigh-valley-warehouse-unemployment-benefits
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)It's a privately held company founded by Todd Bevol and Sean Montgomery.
Amazon is a publicly held company. It has zero dollars invested in ISS.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)And apparently you don't understand how temporary staffing works.
If they lost their Amazon contract, they simply release all of those temporary staffers, and would probably lay off a portion of internal staff dealing with the Amazon contract. Revenues decrease, but the business remains because Amazon is far from their only client.
Sherman A1
(38,958 posts)
peacebird
(14,195 posts)The only thing I *buy* at amazon is organic soy baby formula for my grandson because I can't get it locally, but that will change soon when the new Costco opens!
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)I will continue to support them.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)I've worked that job before. It was a veritable seven layer dip of dangerous work, shitty hours, and poor compensation. I don't think the locale makes much of a difference.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Or am I supposed to take your word for it?
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Pay for warehouse positions in Upper Macungie is $12 per hour, according to Amazon’s website. The median pay for similar jobs in the region is $14 per hour, according to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
So notice, first, that those 7,000 jobs aren’t in Chattanooga, but all over the US. Second, Amazon’s cash comp is markedly below local averages. And although it offers a “benefits package,” it’s not clear that it’s better than what other area employers offer. The article doesn’t add that some of these 7,000 jobs are part time and/or seasonal.
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013/07/more-obama-big-lies-touting-sweatshop-amazon-warehouse-jobs-as-middle-class.html
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Don't get me wrong, I think it is shitty. But I was pulling temp warehouse work a few years ago in Southern California, the pay was minimum wage, and no benefits.
For a very brief period of time (the amount of time it took to me to get fired for sticking up for the temps, about two months), I worked for a staffing agency in San Diego which supplied workers to a major manufacturer. The client paid us $13.00/hr for workers we paid $9.50/hr. The client had a rule on the books that no temp could work longer than six months without being made permanent. So, every six months, we'd fire the temps for a week, and then rehire them... as temps. And because the employers were essentially customers, we bent over backwards to give them what they wanted. One manager only wanted young Asian women. So the main office only sent over young Asian women. Equal opportunity laws be damned.
Most of these people were young parents with very young children, many of them single mothers.
I'm not saying you're wrong to criticize Amazon. I would just bear in mind that temp jobs are fucking awful, and MANY companies are relying on "perma-temps" to weasel their way out of paying decent money for permanent jobs. Kicking Amazon in the balls isn't going to fix the problem, because it is much, much bigger than them.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)completely unbenefited.
also, amazon's temp company goes to court to challenge any unemployment filings.
Saboburns
(2,807 posts)She handles customer service, not in the warehouse, but she LOVES working for Amazon. She says she is so happy with the work environment, that Amazon provides so many cool, free perks, and that the people she works for are laid-back and happy. She's turned down better paying jobs elsewhere because she loves the culture of Amazon, and really enjoys working there.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Saboburns
(2,807 posts)Good for my sister, who works there
CK_John
(10,005 posts)trying to point all evil to one corporation seems to be a personal grudge and not very productive.
Check this out: CNN article about an all robot hotel.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/04/travel/japan-hotel-robots/
We're not sure if the robotic staff at a planned hotel in Japan will be tucking guests into their beds at night, but they'll be performing plenty of other traditional hospitality tasks.
Huis Ten Bosch, a theme park modeled after the Netherlands in Japan's Nagasaki Prefecture, has announced plans to open a hotel with robot staff and other advanced technologies.
The hotel will be called Henn-na Hotel, which translates as Strange Hotel.
According to the park, the first phrase of the two-story hotel will open on July 17 with 72 rooms.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)criticized the small bookstore owner in san Francisco while not saying word 1 about Amazon, the main reason the employer (who himself makes only $13/hour) is closing his doors.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)the umpteenth time, because people either forget, or they choose to ignore the many requests...demands...that "good liberals" should boycott certain businesses...
a list I've been keeping...
BP
Hershey
Amazon.com
All Red States
Florida in particular
NC in particular
Marriot
Olive Garden
Chick-fil-a
NFL Football
Sea World Entertainment
Koch Products
fast food in general
Disney World
Coke (the company)
Abercrombie & Fitch
Cristal
Madea
College sports
Walmart
Regal Cinema
Papa John Pizza
Denny's
Applebees
Dominos Pizza
Goodwill
Huff Po
Elton John
Salvation Army
Toyota
Hobby Lobby
Staples
Is there anyone here who can honestly say they're boycotting ALL of these places, businesses, or things?
One other thing I want to ask. Is the point of boycotting done to put these places out of business?
Or is it one of those "feel good" actions...a way to make oneself better than someone else who isn't boycotting just for the moral statement?
What's the ultimate purpose?
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)it is, how happy its workers are, etc etc barf-infinitum
what is *your* preferred method to deal with bad labor practices?
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)I think I'll go make a purchase now!
on this board a few times in the past.
Oh, look...I actually found something from nearly five years ago on DU2!!
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9702145
And in reply to a question in that thread as to why people should boycott Amazon, here it is... (seems like people keep finding reasons to boycott lots of places, but whatever)
Open Letter to Amazon.com
by Daniel Ellsberg on December 3, 2010
I’m disgusted by Amazon’s cowardice and servility in abruptly terminating its hosting of the Wikileaks website, in the face of threats from Senator Joe Lieberman and other Congressional right-wingers. I want no further association with any company that encourages legislative and executive officials to aspire to China’s control of information and deterrence of whistle-blowing.
So, you didn't answer my questions.
What is the point of boycotting person, place, thing, or business?
To send a message?
To put the person/place/thing/or business out of commission?
To get all up in someone else's face with outrage because they're obviously not as high-minded and moral as we are?
I'm suspecting that it's the last scenario, based on replies to people who either like Amazon, or know someone who actually likes working there. I see where you are attempting to humiliate people for not agreeing with you.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Yes, people here just looove amazon. It's been very enlightening.
Bad Granny
(28 posts)themselves and see things from the perspective of another.
We call people like this liberal, compassionate, human.
Those others are the obstacles to a better world.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)about them.
I find it kind of shocking. and disgusting.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)So much of what they do deals with fungible commodities like oil that it is literally impossible to boycott them.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)Yet, there have been calls, right here on DU, for people to boycott Koch Industries.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/100250720
And that's why this whole "Boycott ________!!!!" thing is so much bullshit.
Some people either don't know, or don't care, that they may be patronizing some business or buying some product that "good liberals" think is evil.
So they'll look the other way, while trying to shame someone else
Or maybe they can rationalize it by claiming that XXX business is worse than YYY business.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts) pipi_k
(21,020 posts)Hopefully we'll find out how many people who try to use guilt on others actually walk the walk.
Or not...
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Don't you know that there are children who are deathly allergic to peanuts and tha ct of eating peanut butted could result in the death of a child????
HOW CAN YOU CALL YOURSELF LIBERAL!!!!!!?????????
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)poverty line.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)poverty line. I shop at goodwill and eat a peanut butter sandwich for lunch. or plain bread and butter.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)what about peanut butter made from free range peanuts? By eating the peanuts I am making sure that an allergic person is not exposed to them.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)pipi_k
(21,020 posts)you didn't finish your statement.
"Speaking of rationalization..."
speaking of rationalization....WHAT?
Using snarky little one-liners never wins an argument, especially when the person using them can't even be bothered to finish the statement.
65. Could be...
Hopefully we'll find out how many people who try to use guilt on others actually walk the walk.
Or not...
Was three lines actually
Plus they were in reply to someone else, not to you in a lame attempt to win an argument
Here's the unfortunate truth for you...unless you (or anyone else) has to deal with the direct consequences of boycotting a business that allows people to buy what they want or need on a limited income...or anyone whom you think is a victim but who just might be damned thankful to have a job at one of those EVIL companies, you will probably get the same responses you got in this thread.
Boycott as many things as you want. Really. Have a blast
But don't think you're going to get away with shaming other people for not being the rats to your Pied Piper
Kilgore
(1,733 posts)Because Molex products are used in both and Koch owns Molex
Stellar
(5,644 posts)I'm now paying $99.00 (it was $79.00) a year as a member for their streaming movies and TV shows. And I can't seem to let it go because I love it. I also get 300 free extra movies and 300 free extra TV shows/series every month. So, I keep saying I'm going to use my buycott App to make up for it but haven't started yet. 
http://buycott.com/
progressoid
(49,988 posts) pipi_k
(21,020 posts)here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8825870
Some people said they were done with him.
Something to do with him performing at Rush Limbaugh's wedding.
progressoid
(49,988 posts)kcr
(15,315 posts)I also don't go around to threads about any of them professing my love love love! for them and shaming anyone calling for a boycott of them and downplaying or denying the bad things they do. I don't think too many people are saying one has to boycott everything on that list of yours.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)You should be required to give reasons as to why this company has been put on a boycott listing. Toyota, Goodwill, Disney, and many other companies are fine but for some reason end up this drummed up list by the OP of that list. Sorry but we should not willy nilly a listing without full explanation and at least majority rule before being placed on a boycott listing.
sweetapogee
(1,168 posts)for the list. I've printed a copy!
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)When did this happen? Goodwill????? That is where I take my donations....when did this happen? NFL Football? I just watched a great game a few days ago and had a good time too.....when did this happen???? PaPa Johns and Dominoes???? WTH...I hate Pizza Hut (for real). Denny's.......I go there every Sunday morning....I NEVER heard this was boycotted. Coke? I drink Diet Coke by the gallons....never heard of this either. Disney World????? I have yearly season passes........Hersey???? WTH....I eat chocolate all the time.
Those above are for real.....I use every company a lot. I never heard of any of those being boycotted....I doubt I would boycott them anyway but I find those companies untrue that they are bad......Amazon is seriously out of the question....I can't live without them.
dilby
(2,273 posts)And I was pretty surprised the total came out to $8,961, but I got free shipping on all of it or it was added to my cloud and never received a physical product. All of my media now is purchased through Amazon, my books, videos, and music. Also any large items like furniture and computer items. I may even start ordering my toiletries through them.
I have never had a problem with Amazon, and I enjoy their customer service.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)We all must do business with corporations unless we decide to eat grass and live in a cave while dressing ourselves in animal skins.
And then the Liberaller than Thous will get all up in our face for killing animals for their skins.
dilby
(2,273 posts)Because of Amazon I have more disposable income to spend in my community where that money stays in my community. If I buy a computer at Best Buy instead of Amazon the money is not staying here. But if I take that $100 I saved buying the computer at Amazon and take my girlfriend out to dinner at this great restaurant down the street from me that money is staying in my community.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)But we can all do our best for our communities.
Response to MohRokTah (Reply #68)
ND-Dem This message was self-deleted by its author.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)anything over the price of membership can be counted toward free shipping.
For those of us on fixed incomes, it's a huge help.
Especially if we do the subscription thing where certain items are shipped automatically.
All my shopping lists are in one place. I don't have to leave the house to shop. Items are often less expensive. I just had to replace a toaster the other day. Got my new one yesterday (two day shipping) and just used it about 20 minutes ago.
I don't really mind someone saying they personally won't shop on Amazon, but this crap where people belittle others who like it is just obnoxious.
dilby
(2,273 posts)People shop either where they can afford the prices or where they get good service. It's either of those two options and nothing else and I am not one to expect a single mother making minimum wage to shop at Whole Foods over a Super Walmart.
you for that.
Too many people lack the ability to walk in someone else's shoes.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)There are many areas in this country like that. Walmart is really the only choice for shopping for groceries or anything else.
At least they have that much, but it's sad they have no other choices.
elias49
(4,259 posts)All I've heard from you is "I got mine!! And FREE shipping!!" That really strikes me as straight from the far right wing in this country.
"Fuck social services! I got mine"
"Cut Social Security for the damned freeloaders - just don't touch MINE"
Hell, why don't "those people" just buy from Amazon!!
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)I fully support social services and have been active in the fight to remove the cap on the social security tax so that social security is solvent in perpetuity.
So give me your apology.
I am waiting.
elias49
(4,259 posts)ASAMOF I generally find your posts offensive. It doesn't seem to make a difference the subject matter. Therefore I can only assume that I deplore your opinions. What makes this issue any different?
Enjoy your "Wall-E" life.
Response to elias49 (Reply #208)
MohRokTah This message was self-deleted by its author.
onethatcares
(16,167 posts)fuck those warehouse workers, I got my free shipping.
It looks like the .01% have finally succeeded in turning people against each other and all it took was closing down American factories, getting rid of American jobs, and selling cheap shit from China with free shipping.
I'm glad I'm at the downhill slide of my life, both work and age wise. The disdain for the working man is more palpable than ever.
This is my opinion, I'm not going to argue it.
Brigid
(17,621 posts)I have a few years of working life left, and I'm not expecting a whole lot out of them. I despise what this country has become -- we're reduced to scrambling around in a warehouse picking orders for chump change with no job security and no benefits while the rich laugh at us.
onethatcares
(16,167 posts)for the teachers, it's the schools, for the office workers it's contract work, for the working poor, it's oblivion.
Looking back over my working life, I think it was a lot better. Even if your boss hated you, you could get another job elsewhere
where you were at least better tolerated.
it's the rich bastages that are killing us all.
thanks for the reply, I couldn't have said what you posted any better.
Brigid
(17,621 posts)I have an absolutely fascinating series on DVD, from PBS, about Chicago.in the nineteenth century. I have literally worn it out, I've watched it so many times. I actuslly need to replace it.I didn't even know that was possible. But they talked a lot about the labor strife in the city, like the Pullman Strike and Haymarket. One elderly lady talked about how her mother came from Poland with her family and took a job at 13 sewing in a sweatshop to help support the family after her father died. The workers were charged rent for the machines, for oil to lubricate them, and for needles that broke -- that sort of thing. Marshall Field's fancy department store was only about a mile away. Sound familiar?
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)which is, I think, one of the reasons for our present situation.
Brigid
(17,621 posts)Who had never heard of Blair Mountain. That's right -- Blair Mountain. 
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)the landmarks of labor history.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)imagine how the self-identified republicans act.
appalachiablue
(41,131 posts)opposition is quite disturbing. Fascination with tech & devotion to Amazon in particular is curious to me, like indifference to management styles like Bezos'. In this age of ultraconservatism & global capitalism, the value of labor has clearly declined dramatically for the reasons you mention. And soon workers & society will face more loss & disruption as 50% of US jobs in widespread occupations will be eliminated in the next 20 years. Recent advances in AI, robotic software, 3D printers & driverless vehicles are bringing this change, known as The Automation Age by some. I've read little to nothing concerning attempts by govt. or business to address the tremendous impact this will have especially in the US. At the end of my work & age life also, I'm very concerned for the welfare of younger people & the planet. The light I see is that this massive age of disruption will cause awareness & change for the better. I hope.
tosh
(4,423 posts)about working in one of these warehouses, a REAL EYE OPENER for me.
http://www.radiolab.org/story/brown-box/
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)pipi_k
(21,020 posts)is the problem, get out there and start organizing them.
I can't see anything to be gained or remedied by posting outrage on a discussion board.
This is what makes me laugh when people demand boycotts...especially if the aim is to hurt the business. Often to the point where it's not the bigwigs who suffer, but the little people, who find themselves out of a job.
Where do all those people go, huh?
If jobs were plentiful, you think they'd be busting their asses for peanuts and abuse?
For some people, having ANY job is better than having NO job.
It's not your business to tell them they'd be better off without a job.
Now, if your concern is such that you'd like to actually help the downtrodden workers at Amazon, stop posting about it here and start figuring out a way to get them better working conditions.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)a lot. do you have amazon stock too?
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)There's no reason to post on a discussion board so I don't know where that statement is coming from
What I said, and what I meant was that merely posting outrage on a discussion board (trying to shame others) is NOT going to change shit
You want to change people's lives for the better? Then do something more meaningful than trying to shame other people for not living up to your obviously high moral standards
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)so much. if you think that posting facts about Bezos' business dealings is equivalent to "shaming other people for not living up to (my) obviously high moral standards" I think you're confused.
or are just feeling guilty for not living up to your own.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)give a rat's ass that you criticize Bezos.
It got ridiculous when you started to criticize and belittle people who LIKE Amazon and will continue to shop there in spite of the "it's more evil than McDonalds and Walmart" stuff.
What's so hard to understand about that?
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)I've "criticized and belittled" anyone except Bezos and morakta or whatever that poster's name is -- you know, the one who criticized and belittled *me* from jump street.
I've posted information critical of amazon and Bezos. some people don't like it and don't want to hear it. oh well, they don't have to click on it.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)Right from the very first reply
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8825870
and then it progressed to every person who agreed that they were not going to give up shopping at Amazon.
Snotty replies to everyone who didn't agree.
And I don't think anyone else really gives a shit that you're insulting Bezos either. Just stating a fact that they love Amazon and they're not going to stop shopping there.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)do you have anything from *this* thread, here in 2014?
cause that's the one you're making accusations about.
I gave examples of snotty replies below.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)boycott amazon.
I don't think I ever claimed to be snot-free. I don't think you have been, either.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)They also opened a warehouse very close to me. We are talking about almost 1000 jobs. Seasonal workers were being hired end of last year for 10.50/hr. In this area it is acceptable money. Many would like that pay. They are also believed to have hired over 150 people at above state wage averages at this facility alone. The figures are not out to back that up yet. I believe they are still waiting for it to be fully staffed. They are shipping orders. Floridians not willing to find out how to bypass the state "use tax" will now be paying 6% state tax on their purchased. Before this factory opened Floridians were not paying taxes on their online Amazon purchases. There is still an easy loophole around this but most people simply aren't aware. The property Amazon purchased for this venture was providing under 2000/year in property taxes by way of agricultural tax laws. It was useless to the community. While I am sure Amazon will be paying no or almost no property taxes for the foreseeable future, the state taxes alone will amount to over 2000 a day. I get it that doesn't go straight to the county but the county itself will benefit greatly in so many other ways. The area Amazon has opened is now seeing growth. Numerous other business are opening up. Including other distribution centers.
Fight for unions as you should. But to claim "worse than Walmart" is foolish. The reasons given in your op don't reach the level of that claim. Please let me know where I can find an Amazon warehouse in the US today that is 100 degrees with locked doors. Just one current one please. Clearly if they are worse than Walmart they have not corrected that. You would be shocked at the number of people in Florida, working for less than $10/hr, in 100 degree heat without the luxury of shade, for 10+ hours a day, for multiple months out of the year. It is our reality. Fighting Amazon themselves is a losing battle. Fighting for collective bargaining rights is done in a completely different manner. In Florida it starts with the state.
Edit to ad: There is nothing hypocritical about supporting a non-union business coming into your back yard, using their services, while also fighting for collective bargaining rights. It is necessary for many. It is not hypocritical.
LongTomH
(8,636 posts)I won't say I'm boycotting Amazon as yet; but, I've started looking at alternatives.
tabbycat31
(6,336 posts)But the truth is that I get my books (paper and ebooks) for free and don't buy them on Amazon or at a bookstore. There's a thing called the public library where I can borrow them for free and save a lot of $$ (and space as I move a lot).
The last physical book I bought (and paid for) was at a locally owned used bookstore. It's one I'd borrowed 3-4 times and figured I needed to own it for reference.
Amazon has a good selection of free ebooks. I've discovered some authors and series through them and also have bought deeply discounted ebooks ($1-2 for a $10-$20 book) because they discount them a few days a year. There's blogs you can watch that track what is on deep discount.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)If they don't care enough to organize and stand up for themselves, why exactly should I care?
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)it from the workers' POV.
They could be so afraid of losing their jobs that they're pretty much powerless to do anything.
Which is why I called on the OP to be the one to step up in the employees' defense. He doesn't work there. He's got nothing to lose...
99Forever
(14,524 posts)That's nothing new or unique to them. Stand up and claim your fundamental RIGHTS to get treated decently and paid fairly or grovel for the crumbs. Is it easy? HELL NO, its tough as can be. Nothing else will work.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)it's a risk we all take, but maybe there's a majority of workers there who are just getting by on one income, whereas in some other places a spouse could be helping and the fear might be less.
I don't know the specifics of peoples' lives, or what they could be dealing with at any particular time...
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... I honestly believe that the only way they will ever better their circumstances and make it stick, is to organize a Union and fight the hard fight. There will be no effective boycott of Amazon, just as there has been no effective boycott of McDonalds or Wallyworld. Only those workers can do what's needed.
I walked my first picket line at age 18 in 1972, I couldn't afford to be out of work either, a young wife and our first child on the way, but we found a way to get thru it, because working as a scab WASN'T an option.
So as I said in my first response to this thread, when they form a Union and go on strike, I'll honor their picket line.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)however, since Bezos has arranged things, with the connivance of government, so that a big chunk of his workforce quits, is laid off or fired regularly, it kind of impedes the organizing effort.
google it. there's a lot of history there.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)DO.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)nearly since it was founded, in one case by closing an entire warehouse, maybe workers need you to show them what they're doing wrong.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... quit looking for other people to fight your fight for you.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)along workgroup lines; which makes me wonder why a big union organizer like yourself is so dismissive.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Hardly. It's called realistic. I guess you think "shaming Amazon" on the internet is an effective means to changing their working methods. I merely contend that as long as they have labor that allows Amazon to walk all over them, NOTHING will change or conditions will get worse.
So go right ahead and pretend that organizing and Unionizing aren't the long-term answer for crap employers.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)more often. I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it, or describe it as "shaming amazon" or "shaming amazon customers", both of which people here have described it as.
and I find some of your posts unsettling. we'll leave it at that.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)... an Internet Activist. Going to fix the world from your keyboard, are you?
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)occupy.
I won't be responding to you again, so feel free to insult me to your heart's content without repercussions.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)I simply made suggestions of doing something that might actually make a difference. You simply didn't want to hear it. Griping on the internet seems more your speed.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)"union organizing" or "anti-union".
The digital libertarian famed for technical innovation faced for the first time a protest movement not afraid to take their fight to the streets.
http://www.thenation.com/article/168109/protesters-confront-amazon-founder-jeff-bezos#
99Forever
(14,524 posts)DO.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts)Did you come help us organize?
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Last edited Fri Feb 6, 2015, 06:14 AM - Edit history (1)
and what I said was *you* should try google to read up about it.
Bad Granny
(28 posts)ignored or glossed over. Its system is typical of the oppressive and exploitative business practices that have become SOP for most larger companies.
My daughter works as an editor for a small, but great publisher in NYC. She has educated me on the destructive consequences that Amazon and its approach is having on the creation of literature itself.
If things regress along the lines they are currently moving, you will soon not be able to find any small, specialized publishers as the monsters will have forced everyone else out of the field.
Then, only "corporately approved" writing will be published .
Then, the public will be limited in its access to literature.
As designed.
And we put up with this, simply to save a couple of bucks on a book. The middle and working classes have been squeezed so much that many are "forced" to cut corners and look for any savings, even pennies or a "couple of bucks" in order to merely survive.
As designed.
When you have nothing to read except corporately-approved pablum that only gives messages with a certain perspective, you can blame your patronage of Amazon and the other exploiters of capitalism that are getting richer off of your "thrift."
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Publishers would take the expense of publishing a bunch of copies of the book, and then try to sell it. Because it took a while to print up the books, and it cost a lot to have that many books printed.
Now, the author can sell individual, printed-on-demand copies of their book. Or an e-book. No publisher required.
Of course, that means they lose the networking effects of a big publisher, but those are the demons you were just attacking.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)There are small imprint publishers who are doing a damned fine job of integrating their authors' works into amazon's e-platform. They're networking with each other to make up for the lack of a hulking huge PR machine like a Random House can wield.
Prism
(5,815 posts)Stuff is simply cheap. Toiletries, food, appliances, household staples. And I don't mean slightly cheaper. Some stuff is 50-80% off what can be managed at the store. Bulk goods are cheaper than even Costco.
Two day free shipping is a god send. When you're working 2-3 jobs and caring for kids, being able to order necessities instead of spending gas to go to this or that store is revolutionary.
I support the workers in their attempts to increase conditions and increased wages, but removing what for many is a great help during economically slender times isn't an option.
onethatcares
(16,167 posts)to have to work 2-3 jobs and care for kids.
Perhaps if other people didn't pee their pants over free shipping and they could go to stores where the items
were available to see and touch prior to buying that store wouldn't be so "revolutionary"
I almost remember a time when that used to happen and there were things called stores with salepersons and
even stock people. All making a decent wage, most having some type of retirement program available, some supporting
families on one paycheck. That must have been an imaginary land or I must have been dreaming.
Prism
(5,815 posts)Cheap and convenient will always win at the end of the day. That's why I think we are making a grave mistake neglecting our manufacturing economy. Technology is going to replace workers in the service economy. If we do not support industries that offer new, well-paying jobs to offset worker displacement, we're going to spiral. We're already in the undertow of part-time workers with decreased wages. If the middle class is allowed to degrade further, there goes the consumer economy.
Politicians and corporations are simply not looking ahead.
appalachiablue
(41,131 posts)Appreciate your comments here, it's a real dilemma that few to none in govt. & business are discussing or planning, the new Automation Economy, on top of reduced hours, pay, opportunities & decline of the working & middle classes.
Prism
(5,815 posts)Things like the TVA, on a New Deal scale. We have the money, but no will. Also, trade schools and a rejiggered education system to train people for the new technology.
But, that's a bit of a pipe dream until the project becomes too big to ignore.
appalachiablue
(41,131 posts)The wealthy used to pay much more in taxes & still lived very well. RR & W changed all that, & more, end of unions, benefits, then free trade NAFTA, outsourcing.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)number of items in x number of minutes, nor issued demerits that would get them fired when they didn't, nor did they have to ask for permission to go to the bathroom, nor have to be body searched on their own lunch time before they went to lunch....
and there were other jobs to move into besides the warehouse; that was a biggie.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)poor people (of which I am now one). most of them can't use a computer, and few have one.
Prism
(5,815 posts)I know this, because I work for social services and spend a lot of time with people on limited state assistance, disability, SSI, etc.
Here is a Pew survey about computer and internet usage in U.S. households:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/09/19/census-computer-ownership-internet-connection-varies-widely-across-u-s/
Most people I encounter have a computer of some kind or access to the internet. It may not be a shiny new PC (it's usually a hand me down from family, neighbors, or even children). I also know they shop online. How? Because I let many of them use my Prime account. I have them make up a list of things, and then I purchase them and have them delivered to their address.
You hate Amazon. I get that. But some of the people I work with are unable to leave their homes due to age, illness, or disability. Some of them are barely scraping by on a couple hundred dollars a month, Section 8, Medicare etc. For them, Amazon is a god send.
Your personal feelings make absolutely no nevermind to me. I work in this environment 45 hours a week. I know how the poor, the sick, and the disabled are coping in this area. I will support whatever makes their lives better, and no bit of anonymous internet grousing is going to change my mind in the slightest.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Prism
(5,815 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)appalachiablue
(41,131 posts)deception. And decline. What will these workers do when AI & robotic software automation make their jobs obsolete in 5-10 years? And most retail, cashier & other jobs are also gone? The US will lose 50% of jobs in the next 20 years to computer automation according to Oxford Martin & other academic & business experts. One champion just called it The Automation Revolution in a post up thread. People are concerned rightfully, except those who are very well set it seems.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)it delivered by other slaves.
so damn convenient. they never have to step outside and see the world they're birthing.
SHITWORLD
Prism
(5,815 posts)Is that massive economic dislocation often results in a great political sea change. If the politicians won't change, the people will grow desperate and angry enough to change them.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)"If it's cheaper for me at this second, that justifies everything..."
-- The loss of local bookstores
-- The destruction of the publishing industry, and the devaluation of the work of authors (reducing most of them to "crowd-sourcers" for Amazon's middle-man mega-projects.
-- Depriving the US and States over huge tax base (through destruction of bricks and mortar businesses as well as its own tax avoidance)
-- Exploitation of temp labor, harsh warehouse conditions, famous "shark tank" continual elimination of the weakest at the management level --> all serve to reshape the economy in a way that's good for the entrepreneur at the top, but radically decreases the quality of life for the workers forced to struggle to survive in this context. As Amazon eliminates competition, this is increasingly all that's left.
As ND-Dem has shown over the last few days, the list goes on and one. The temporary benefit the poor might get does not justify them undermining the rest of the US economy and culture.
But wait - do you say they *need* to?
I'm on welfare, and I haven't felt any such need. In fact it is impossible for me to use Amazon. For one thing, this would require me to use a credit card or draw on my bank account - either of these moves would disqualify me from welfare where I live: Oakland doesn't believe in people providing for basic needs for themselves beyond shelter (only up to $336/month) and food. I you obtain money to spend on basic necessities, it gets deducted from the shelter money. Therefore, you are expected to go without electricity, utilities, transportation, hygiene products, toilet paper, etc...
But I digress. Let me pretend I get SSI instead of General Assistance Welfare. Woot, after spending most of the money on rent and then picking up groceries from a food bank, I have $50 left in discretionary income! Am I going to order stuff online and take advantage of free shipping?
Nope. I'm going to go into the local drug store that can provide me with shampoo, toothpaste, and toilet paper RIGHT NOW. Even if it would technically be cheaper if I ordered it from Amazon, there is something about browsing for the physical product and chancing upon a sale that just makes more sense to the human brain. And the human-brain-on-poverty usually needs things RIGHT NOW. They aren't going to wait for stuff to be shipped. And they aren't going to buy lawn chairs and china sets. Poor people buy basic stuff like food, house cleaning products, personal hygiene products, and over-the-counter meds. They tend to make spur-of-the-moment decisions based on where they are in a huge list of tasks to deal with and whether they happen to have the money to get what they need at that precise moment.
Amazon is not a boon to poor people. Amazon is a boon to CHEAP people. And I would suggest that these CHEAP people are actually rather well off people who revel in obtaining a smart bargain. But they theorize getting a good deal would also be good for the poor, too. Sadly, real life doesn't happen that way. The poor don't have the vantage point required to shop and compare, to delay their gratification, to leverage their credit record.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)
sendero
(28,552 posts)Jobs. Despite what the MSM and politicians tell you there is still a huge unemployment/underemployment situation in the US.
So long as there is, companies have no incentive to pay well, offer better working conditions, etc, etc, etc. There is always another worker who will accept the deal.
As warehouses go, I am not convinced that Amazon is any worse than average. Most warehouses are not air conditioned. Go figure.
If you are at the bottom of the unskilled labor force, there are a shitload of jobs that make an Amazon warehouse job look like a sweet deal. Some of you folks need to get out of the house more.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)well, no problem if they kill their workers then. it's a sweet deal.
http://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-et-jc-amazon-warehouse-deaths-investigation-20140616-story.html
sendero
(28,552 posts).... people die in the workplace EVERY FUCKING DAY. Grow the fuck up.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)"sendero".
sendero
(28,552 posts).... for the opportunity to add to my extensive ignore list.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)
Kermitt Gribble
(1,855 posts)Certainly not a defense of Amazon - I very rarely shop there.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)Why not?
Why do you expect others to take up your fight for you?
Go on strike and don't go back until your demands are met.
Hit them HARD in the wallet.
Nothing else will make a bit of difference.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)even on a democratic site the number of uninterested, disinterested commenters is sad. To paraphrase some of them: "as long as I can buy my stuff on Amazon I do not care if it is packed by slaves". Not quite, but close.
Think about that people, the world imagined by Amazon, Delivr, Uber, Wal-Mart, Mickey D, etc will be composed of 90% serfs, working for minimum wage and probably living in dormitories at the plantation/factory. 5% will be the police to keep the workers in line, and the overseers in the plant. 4% will be skilled labor to keep the machinery running and 1% will be the Masters, or owners if you will.
But I will not worry because I have outrage overload, or I do not want to believe these stories because they make me uncomfortable. If this is you, congratulations on helping the 1% win by your inaction.
Thanks for the post ND-Dem
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)appalachiablue
(41,131 posts)The company factory or plantation description is right back to the 19th century. What happens when The Automation Revolution ends 50% of jobs in the next 20 years I do not know. But in the meantime the apathy is puzzling & the fascination for toys and objects goes on.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)in the best of times; and particularly not between the classes.
The comfortable will continue to live comfortably off the labor of others until they get sucked up too. then they'll whine about injustice and misfortune, but it will be too late.
In the meantime, life is good....
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Hate them. Just have had nothing but problems every time I have purchased something from them.
So I have been boycotting them forever.
I purchase a lot of stuff online and every time I break down and use amazon it is always a horrible experience. Packages not shipped for days or partial orders arriving strung out for days between different parts of my order.
Maybe I have just been unlucky with them I don't know but of all the online purchases I have made amazon is always the worst experience.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)Because I've been buying from them for quite a while and can't recall one bad experience that was their fault
Both they and most of their associated merchants have very good return policies
Sometimes I'll receive items the very next day even though it's supposed to be two day shipping
I find it very odd that someone could have that much consistent trouble with one place
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Heres my latest purchase from them, against my better judgement.
Hello,
We're writing about the order you placed on December 18, 2014 (Order# ***********). Unfortunately, we are unable to ship the item(s) as soon as we expected and need to provide you with a new estimate of when the item(s) may be delivered:
The Editors of Klutz "Paper Flying Dragons (Klutz)"
New Delivery Estimate: January 02, 2015 - January 05, 2015
We'll make every effort to get the delayed item(s) to you as soon as possible. If there are other items in your order, they'll be shipped according to the delivery estimates listed in the order details in Your Account (www.amazon.com/youraccount?ref=fxm_em_3_0).
For more information about this order please visit:
www.amazon.com/youraccount?ref=fxm_em_3_0
If your shipment arrives too late, you may either refuse delivery or return it to us for a refund. For returns instructions, please visit our Returns Center at:
www.amazon.com/returns?ref=fxm_em_3_0
Please accept our sincerest apologies for any inconvenience caused by this delay.
Feel free to reach out to Customer Service with any questions at http://www.amazon.com/customerservice?ref=fxm_em_3_0
Sincerely,
Customer Service Department
http://www.amazon.com/customer-service?ref=fxm_em_3_0
When you buy stuff from them, are you also checking out the product reviews and merchant/vendor reviews?
I had a similar experience with a set of wooden darning balls I ordered from a crafting company (not associated with Amazon in any way) on Dec 23rd. Just received them today.
I joked with Mr Pipi that it probably took that long because the manufacturer had to wait for the tree to grow before they could cut it down to make the darning ball set.
It never ceases to amaze me how some places will sell stuff they don't even have in stock.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Not an affiliate.
It may just be bad luck but this has happened time and again with them. I gave up on them. My father in law adores Amazon and it has always puzzled me because of my experiences with them.
Couldn't agree more with the selling of items you don't even have in stock, especially with an online retailer as most shopping cart software is tied directly to inventory so there really is no excuse for it.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)after reading through the replies in this thread, it's time to straighten things out so everyone understands what's going on.
You claim you're not asking people to boycott anything, even though you are trying to humiliate people for shopping at Amazon
Just WHAT is it you are asking for/demanding of people?
Amazon is "more evil" than McDonalds and Walmart.
Now what???
If you're not suggesting or demanding that people boycott Amazon, just what ARE you saying?
Maybe those of us who love the place are just...misunderstanding...your really shitty attitude toward us?
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)back up your assertions by linking to the posts where you allege I try to humiliate people and such.
I post facts about amazon and Bezos. if people find it humiliating, that's not my doing.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)That doesn't change my mind. I'm shopping at Amazon because Amazon is awesome and you;ve not convinced me to stop shopping there."
You go off the deep end over anybody who won't buy into your bullshit about Amazon.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Besides, you said you don't care. Why are you still here, why not post on someone else's thread?
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)warehouses, and everyone knows that using temp companies is a dodge.
Nor these:
but if you're so unemployed and indebted, why are you buying stuff online?
Yes, people here just looove amazon. It's been very enlightening.
or this
about them.
I find it kind of shocking. and disgusting.
a lot. do you have amazon stock too?
Sarcasm. Snotty attempts to lay a guilt trip on people for not HATING Amazon.
So I'll ask again.
What, exactly, is the ultimate purpose of your OP? If it was merely to give out information, then consider that done. If that was your sole intent, then the very first time (and all times after that) someone jumped in to say they loved Amazon, maybe the best reply would have been to say you're sorry they feel that way and that you hope they seriously consider the information you posted.
But when people came in to say they loved Amazon, you gave them an attitude, virtually accusing them of caring about their own needs more than they give a shit about bad labor practices.
Not a good way to sway people to one's POV.
So. If those examples I listed above weren't actually meant to be sarcastic and belittling, please clarify them for us.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)warehouses, and everyone knows that using temp companies is a dodge.
This is to morotah or whatever his name is. There is no call for him to stop using amazon.
but if you're so unemployed and indebted, why are you buying stuff online?
This is the only one of the comments you posted that could be interpreted as a call to boycott -- and still, it would be a bit of a stretch.
Yes, people here just looove amazon. It's been very enlightening.
Not a call to boycott.
I find it kind of shocking. and disgusting.
This was written to a poster who also doesn't like amazon, and was a statement of opinion. It contains no call to boycott.
This was written to a poster who complained that I posted too much about amazon and said I'd do better going out into the real world if I cared so much. There is no call to boycott.
151. OK, so after reading through the replies in this thread, it's time to straighten things out so everyone understands what's going on.
You claim you're not asking people to boycott anything, even though you are trying to humiliate people for shopping at Amazon
Just WHAT is it you are asking for/demanding of people?
Amazon is "more evil" than McDonalds and Walmart.
Now what???
If you're not suggesting or demanding that people boycott Amazon, just what ARE you saying?
Maybe those of us who love the place are just...misunderstanding...your really shitty attitude toward us?
I originally started posting about Amazon in response to a few posters who castigated a san Francisco bookseller who went out of business because of SF's new minimum wage, while giving Amazon a pass.
My posts were cut and paste articles from reputable sources. There was no "shitty attitude" included, unless criticism of Amazon is, in and of itself, evidence of a "shitty attitude".
The posts were met by many posters, particularly one, who took offense, apparently at my posting criticism of Amazon -- because they *liked* amazon. Some of the remarks were personal, hostile, snarky, and displayed "shitty attitudes".
For the record, I never made any claims about who was "most evil" among amazon, walmart and mcdonald's, either. I don't think I brought up evil at all.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Have not been at DU as a poster for very long, but have read on the site for a while. I agree with you that there is little support for labor even on the Democratic side. Very sad when working people, the 90% who have to work for a living, behave like the rats in the behavioral experiment that turn on each other when the scientist/capitalist reduces the food supply.
This mindset is partly the result of 30 years of the Reagan philosophy that greed is good. The American corporate media glorifies thieves like Mutt Romney, Jamie Demon, and Jeff Be-elzebubzos while constantly characterizing actual workers, and especially unionized workers, as overpaid and greedy takers.
Amazon, like Wal-Mart, like McDonalds, like Uber, makes massive amounts of money for the owners by deliberately paying their workers a non-living wage. Does it really matter that you can but a shirt cheaper at Wal-Mart if the workers there cannot afford that shirt?
70% of the GDP is composed of consumer spending. Anything, low wages included, that depresses that spending depresses the economy. ECON 101 as opposed to the SupplySide 101 that passes for economic knowledge even on DU.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Reading some of the posts and realizing this represents the alternative to republican thought is indeed depressing. By much of the logic here, I should feel good about buying goods from a plantation where the workers are slaves as long as I do not have to see the slaves being whipped.
As long as I can get my purchases for a cheap price I should not care if the products are made by little children? That is a logical extension of much of the nasty libertarianism I read here.
When workers co-operate in their own oppression by siding with the 1% of oppressors rather than stand against the oppressors it is obvious why the 1% is winning at class warfare in the US.
But I am still hopeful in spite of all the nonsense expressed here because, when polled, a majority of Americans state that they would prefer to be unionized. In spite of all the media nonsense about the evil of unions, people know that the boss is never your friend.
Again ND-Dem, keep it up because, to quote one of my heroes, "the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice".
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)pipi_k
(21,020 posts)Comparing a US business to slavery?
Since when are Amazon employees indentured for life? Since when are they hunted down with dogs if they don't show up for work?
For slaves, the only alternative was death.
Not so in the US. People always have alternatives, even though some of them may be downright unpleasant. But in some cases, maybe Amazon employees have decided that their own alternatives are actually worse than working at Amazon.
As long as I can get my purchases for a cheap price I should not care if the products are made by little children? That is a logical extension of much of the nasty libertarianism I read here.
OK let's look at the alternatives for little children. If they're in a foreign country, and have to help support the family, what do they do? While I will definitely agree that factories, etc., are often horrible places for kids to work at, what else do they do?
Prostitute themselves on the streets?
This isn't a black and white issue here. There are lots of other things to consider, like how does a family in XYZ country support itself.
People here calling certain companies EVIL...what are you all doing to actually help families in foreign countries so they are NOT forced to work in horrible conditions?
DrDan
(20,411 posts)decision.
A promotion process was in place in both corps that involved others.
Bogus criticism.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)So because you worked for 2 corporations that experience allows you to apply what you experienced to all workplaces?
I worked for a number of corporations and never experienced sexual harassment. Does that mean such claims are baseless?
I never experienced racial discrimination either. So discrimination does not exist?
DrDan
(20,411 posts)Last edited Fri Feb 6, 2015, 09:41 PM - Edit history (1)
Not difficult to understand.
Did I apply that experience to all workplaces? Of course not. But you knew that.
Did I suggest that no one promoted on supervisor recommendation alone? Of course not. But you knew that also.
not sure of the logic. Anecdotal experience may be what, in part, forms our opinions but to dismiss this particular criticism as bogus you are relying on your non-related anecdotal experience. So why dismiss the post at all?
DrDan
(20,411 posts)1. The article attacks Amazon's promotion process (which I still contend is not out-of-the-ordinary). How does it compare it to McDonalds or Walmart. The article title suggests there is a significant difference but does not present the specifics.
2. The article attacks Amazon's pay. It states it is on par with Walmart but completely ignores McDonalds. "on par" is evil?
3. The poster goes on to explain how Amazon wage structure is flawed because it is based on a skewed salary structure.
DUH. Show me ONE business of any size over 3-4 that does not have this positive skew. The average salary is ALWAYS skewed by the salaries of those on top.
4. The author doubles-down stating "All of a sudden, comparatively, McDonald’s and Walmart almost look like compassionate employers" yet
a. NEVER mentions McDonalds in terms of specifics
b. NEVER mentions Walmart except to state pay is "on par"
Simply a hit piece and worthy of being ignored.
btw - why would you consider my experience "non-related". I am drawing on my similar employment to comment on promotion processes among large corporations. You appear to be critical simply because I call into question the legitimacy of these criticisms.
Sorry - people disagree and I find this article bogus.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)1)but your sample size is too small to be other than anecdotal experience. Would you generalize from one experience about anything.?
2)As to "on par" I believe we are discussing two different things here. Paying someone a non-living wage is a flawed business model because as the economy has more and more of these substandard wage jobs, the ability of the consumer to participate in the economy is weakened. Given that 70% of GDP is consumer spending, anything that depresses that spending in the micro sense depresses the macro economy as well.
3) I believe that the author intended to make the point that because of the enormous, unprecedented disparity in wealth and pay between the top 1% and the bottom 90%, any talk of averages is flawed. In a sample size of ten, 9 can earn 10,000 a year but if the other makes 1,000,000 per year I would not state that the group average income of 109,000 indicates a healthy economy.
4) Here is a link talking about wages at McDonalds. There are others. In my view, all talk of a minimum wage should be reframed as the right to a living wage. Your thoughts?
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/what-do-mcdonalds-workers-really-make-per-hour/
(I find your arguments to be far better than many here who rely on emoticons as a substitute for logic.)
DrDan
(20,411 posts)The writer posits Amazon is "more evil than Walmart and McDonalds."
He presents three arguments to support that statement.
First, peer reviews are needed for promotions at Amazon. Is this a bad thing? As I said, I worked for a lot of years at 2 major corporations where this was the promotion practice. Is it a bad thing that prior to promoting a person to department manager at Walmart, that the promotion is supported by other department heads? I would think this is a good practice, not one to be offered as an "evil". Wouldn't Walmart and McDonalds want a potential promotion supported by other managers who know the requirements of the job? Sure, politics can enter the picture. But isn't that the case even when no peer review is required?
The writer also fails at offering a comparison to Walmart and McDonalds. Wouldn't this be a good thing if the author is suggesting Amazon is more evil than Walmart and McDonalds? Walmart and McDonalds are NEVER MENTIONED in this argument.
Next the author suggests pay as an argument that Amazon is "more evil than Walmart and McDonalds." However, the author states Amazon pay is "on par" with Walmart. WHAT????? McDonalds pay is not even mentioned by the author. Then WHY IN THE WORLD does this suggest evil on the part of Amazon.
I agree with you that "minimum" wage should be just that - a wage where an individual can subsist. We have allowed that to degrade over the past few decades (by we, I mean of course, the other party). But the point of the article was to suggest McDonalds and Walmart are less evil than Amazon.
The third argument is more difficult to get a grip on. But to suggest potential suicide when criticizing an employees performance is pretty low. I did notice however, that once again, procedures at McDonalds and Walmart WERE NEVER MENTIONED.
How can a comparison be drawn if both sides of the argument are not presented???????????? Why only show how Amazon's procedures are bad and NEVER mention the procedures at Walmart and McDonalds????
I think this is a poorly-written hit piece.
Interesting that it is offered on an investor site. Most articles of this type (investor-oriented) focus on earnings, debt, market demand and the like. Not one mention of Amazon's financial performance was made. Wouldn't this be of interest to investors likely to visit this site? I am curious as to what this particular author has to gain by slowing Amazon stock purchases. Sure seems to be his intent based on who comprises his audience.
I think there are reasons to question Amazon's practices, and Bezos in particular. I am very concerned with his support for privatization of public schools. I hate that some of these capitalists are all-consumed by "profit".
mia
(8,360 posts)appalachiablue
(41,131 posts)frame for replacing most workers with the Kiva bot, 5 years? 2, 10?
Response to ND-Dem (Original post)
olddots This message was self-deleted by its author.
Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)They are searched entering and leaving the warehouse which is time consuming. as much as 30 minutes of their own time. That sucks but it was decided in court that Amazon could force the to.
I write crappy notes to Amazon when I post my review. I make sure that I am not talking about the product.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)time is taken off their unpaid lunch break, which means they have to choke down their food quickly before going back to the floor.
it's clear who benefits. I call it time theft. but the supreme court, it its wisdom, calls it 'law'.
Romulox
(25,960 posts)ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)naïve to think a democratic party organ would be on the side of the masses except in special circumstances. like the Nazis taking over the world or something similar.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)given that money owns politicians in both parties, and given that the education system in this country uses textbooks that must pass the "Texas test" to be published, many people receive a badly skewed/slanted/biased view of the world when they go through the school system.
In spite of the incredible advantage of money in buying politicians and media access, remember that in the 2014 elections progressive positions achieved far more votes than right wing positions EVEN IN RED STATES. I feel this speaks to the fact that people know that the country is on the wrong track. The Koch brothers can buy a lot of influence but they only have 2 votes between them.
Organization is the key. Unions, groups like Occupy, Black Lives Matter, and literally thousands of grassroots groups are fighting to speak truth to power and I believe we are winning and will win.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)You can't possibly be that naive to believe workers at Khols, Sears, Target, Nordstrom, or any other place are any better. Who pays a living wage?????
