Whoa...slow down on the anti-vaxxer bashing!!

[moonbeam23]

It has been very disturbing to read the amount of vitriol spewed by "liberals" at those who are not FULLY on the vaccination bandwagon...

For the record, let me say that i did get my kid her appropriate vaxx (dpt, mmr, polio) at necessary times...HOWEVER...if i had a newborn today, i would NOT go along with the current program...

A newborn's immune system needs time to mature and develop, and all this heavy stimulation of it can not be good down the road...i think we will see more auto-immune diseases in the future...

For instance, wtf does everybody need a hep B shot at birth??? Is it running that rampant? If you go to this schedule put out by the CDC, you will notice that there are 27 DOSES pumped into this child by 18 months!!
http://www2a.cdc.gov/nip/kidstuff/newscheduler_le/schedule.asp

We have to back off and use a little common sense here and not just blindly allow our kids to be lab rats and cash cows for Big Pharma!

In this situation, i believe the middle way could truly be the best solution for all...

This immunization schedule is recommended for your child, born on February 5, 2015.
Child's Age Vaccine and Dose Protects Against Recommended Vaccination Date Date Received (Record date here)
At Birth Hepatitis B
Dose 1 of 3 Hepatitis B virus (chronic inflammation of the liver, life-long complications) Feb 5, 2015
1 to 2 months
(part of well-baby visit) Hepatitis B
Dose 2 of 3 Hepatitis B virus (chronic inflammation of the liver, life-long complications) Mar 7, 2015 to Apr 6, 2015
2 months
(part of well-baby visit) DTaP
Dose 1 of 5 Diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (whooping cough) Apr 6, 2015
Hib
Dose 1 of 4 Infections of the blood, brain, joints, or lungs (pneumonia) Apr 6, 2015
Polio (IPV)
Dose 1 of 4 Polio Apr 6, 2015
Pneumococcal conjugate
(PCV13) §
Dose 1 of 4 Infections of the blood, brain, joints, inner ears, or lungs (pneumonia) Apr 6, 2015
Rotavirus **
Dose 1 of 3 Rotavirus diarrhea (and vomiting) Apr 6, 2015
4 months
(part of well-baby visit) DTaP
Dose 2 of 5 Diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (whooping cough) Jun 5, 2015
Hib
Dose 2 of 4 Infections of the blood, brain, joints, or lungs (pneumonia) Jun 5, 2015
Polio (IPV)
Dose 2 of 4 Polio Jun 5, 2015
Pneumococcal conjugate
(PCV13) §
Dose 2 of 4 infections of the blood, brain, joints, inner ears, or lungs (pneumonia) Jun 5, 2015
Rotavirus **
Dose 2 of 3 Rotavirus diarrhea (and vomiting) Jun 5, 2015
6 months
(part of well-baby visit) DTaP
Dose 3 of 5 Diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (whooping cough) Aug 4, 2015
Hib
Dose 3 of 4 Infections of the blood, brain, joints, or lungs (pneumonia) Aug 4, 2015
Pneumococcal conjugate
(PCV13) §
Dose 3 of 4 Infections of the blood, brain, joints, inner ears, or lungs (pneumonia) Aug 4, 2015
Rotavirus **
Dose 3 of 3 Rotavirus diarrhea (and vomiting) Aug 4, 2015
6 to 18 months Hepatitis B
Dose 3 of 3 Hepatitis B (chronic inflammation of the liver, life-long complications) Aug 4, 2015 to Aug 3, 2016
Polio (IPV)
Dose 3 of 4 Polio Aug 4, 2015 to Aug 3, 2016
6 months or older Influenza
Dose 1 of 2 Flu and complications Sep 5, 2015 or later
Influenza
Dose 2 of 2 Flu and complications Oct 3, 2015 or later, and one dose yearly thereafter
12 to 15 months Hib
Dose 4 of 4 Infections of the blood, brain, joints, or lungs (pneumonia) Feb 5, 2016 to May 5, 2016
Pneumococcal conjugate
(PCV13) §
Dose 4 of 4 Infections of the blood, brain, joints, inner ears, or lungs (pneumonia) Feb 5, 2016 to May 5, 2016
MMR
Dose 1 of 2 Measles, mumps, and rubella (German measles) Feb 5, 2016 to May 5, 2016
Varicella
Dose 1 of 2 Chickenpox Feb 5, 2016 to May 5, 2016
12 to 23 months
Hepatitis A
Dose 1 of 2 Hepatitis A virus (inflammation of the liver) Feb 5, 2016 to Feb 4, 2017
15 to 18 months DTaP
Dose 4 of 5 Diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (whooping cough) May 5, 2016 to Aug 3, 2016
18 months or older Hepatitis A
Dose 2 of 2, (follows 6 months after Dose 1) Hepatitis A virus (inflammation of the liver) Aug 3, 2016 or later

[snooper2]

1. How long have you been a pediatrician?

[Maedhros]

2. From here:

http://www.salon.com/2015/02/05/the_9_craziest_claims_of_anti_vaxxers_partner/

7. Doctors get paid by pharmaceutical companies to give vaccinations.Anti-vaxxers argue that the pharmaceutical industry and doctors are getting rich by giving children vaccinations. Some even claim that doctors are given bonuses for each vaccination they give. It’s hard to argue with such a cynical accusation, but many vaccines are created by research facilities and given to pharmaceutical companies to produce, which do so at low margins (MMR vaccinations cost less than $1 to produce). Furthermore, there are nearly 60,000 pediatricians in the U.S., so you would think that one of them would have a change of heart or somebody associated to one of them would have exposed such a nefarious plot by now. But it hasn’t happened.

Refuting fallacious arguments is not "bashing."

I agree that we should tone down the outright insults on the basis that insults rarely convince anyone to change their minds.

[Mika]

3. IBTL

There's no room for this discussion here. Yer either with 'em er agin' 'em..

[zappaman]

6. Yes, I'm against anti-vaxxers.

As is anyone who believes in science more than bullshit.

[Mika]

23. So, if the ADA tells you that mercury in fillings is safe - you believe them?

FYI, I am not an anti vaxxer, as falsely accused.
I am concerned with related issues as to preservatives and scheduling.
Autism is increasing at an alarming rate (and I'm not saying that it is MMR vaccines). It behooves us to be looking at all possible causes, and thru the process of elimination we might find answers.

Cheers.

[zappaman]

25. Not an anti-vaxxer?

Guess you sure fooled everyone.

[Mika]

40. Tell your dentist that you want mercury laden amalgams, because the ADA research says its OK.

BTW, clinically, amalgams with mercury have been one of the most successful restorative methodologies in dentistry.

The ADA still says they're safe.

[Are_grits_groceries]

62. The Mercury in the vaccines is in a COMPOUND!

It isn't free floating Mercury. There are many dangerous substances that would kill us by themselves. However, when they form COMPOUNDS they form completely different substances.
http://themetapicture.com/angry-scientist-finds-uneducated-internet-comment-and-delivers-badass-response/

[NuclearDem]

73. You put chlorine on your food all the time.

Chlorine is toxic, so why are you still alive?

[HockeyMom]

84. I break out in hives from chlorine

Have to drink bottled water and even had a special filter on my shower head for the chlorinated water. Cannot go in a pool.

As a child back in the 50s, my Mom could not wash my sheets in bleach. How is chloride manufactured?

[NuclearDem]

85. Have you ever used salt on your food?

[uppityperson]

86. Salt. Sodium chloride. Na. Cl.

[Warpy]

89. They are.

They've been discarded largely for cosmetic reasons, even though the composite fillings generally aren't as durable.

My mother had a mouthful of amalgam fillings. She made it to 94 with absolutely no sign of heavy metal poisoning. I'd have spotted it, too.

So you've decided vaccines are probably safe. Well good for you. Now you're trying to chisel around the edges, talking about preservatives and scheduling. What you don't seem to realize is that parts per million of even extreme poisons like cyanide are safely ingested every day, sequestered by the liver and rendered harmless. The preservatives in vaccines aren't that toxic and are simply eliminated.

Likewise, you seem incapable of realizing that the scheduling has been arrived at over a period of many years of intensive study by people whose business it is to study the optimum timing to activate a child's developing immune system while allowing breaks between dosages. It's their life's work to do this. The schedules might be further optimized in the future, but they are not harmful now.

I'm amazed by the arrogance of cranks at computers who read Mercola or Natural News and consider themselves informed, they are no different from people who are propagandized by Glen Beck except that they are more dangerous to public health.

[Hekate]

146. Warpy

+1. Also lol.

[Sheepshank]

57. just a second...I don't understand

so you are trying to tell us the scenario is that ADA knows mercury is in fillings and they know that mercury is bad and they are telling the public a lie? We should not believe them because they are probably and therefore lying about everything they know and don't know, to deliberately lie about everything to the public?

huh....I don't understand?

[Warpy]

92. Tiny amounts of mercury vapor are inhaled by people with amalgam fillings

That's been an established fact for decades. What has also been established is that the human body is perfectly capable of handling tiny amounts of mercury vapor.

Heavy metal poisoning occurs when enough is ingested or inhaled to overwhelm the liver. Amalgam fillings just don't contribute enough. However, light switch mentalities who are medically ignorant swear on Mercola's website that every molecule of mercury makes people ill and that getting all those old fillings yanked out will cure them of every single human ailment they might have contracted since childhood.

It doesn't. It only cures a full wallet.

[Sheepshank]

95. I sort of knew that part. But thanks.

What had me confused is that the person i was responding seems to state that established and accepted science shouldn't help us determine if we take note of ADA recommendations, because they will lie to the public even when the science behind it has been proven. but I may be wrong .

[Warpy]

98. You're not wrong, at all

It's the light switch, on or off, all or nothing mentality at work.

If you got amalgam filling when you were a kid, keep 'em unless you spend your life with your mouth hanging open and it's a cosmetic issue.

[Adrahil]

135. I agree... And many otherwise thoughtful people...

... Buy this bullshit. I can't really blame them, since medicine is big business in this country, many just now assume they are being taken for a ride.

A good friend of mine... Very smart, has a PhD. He went to a dentist and got all his old amalgam fillings removed and replaced. I personally think that's kinda wacky. But it's his mouth... And money!

[spanone]

4. pant load.

[NuclearDem]

5. Nope.

[sharp_stick]

7. Fuck That

anti vaxxers need to be shamed and ridden out of town on a rail.

[rhett o rick]

104. I hope you are being sarcastic. nm

[Lucky Luciano]

112. I have the same beliefs about the idiots requiring some massive shaming. nt

[rhett o rick]

114. This reminds me of witch burning. Please don't tell me you think you are liberal minded because

no liberal would condone lynch mobs. If you don't agree with those that don't trust the government, then fight with education not humiliation. Bullying never changes the mind of the bullied only makes them more steadfast.

I am curious if you support fracking?

[Lucky Luciano]

116. What does fracking have to do with anything?

Anti-vaxxers should be banned immediately on DU if they post outside of the conspiracy theory groups here after a proper warning.

[rhett o rick]

117. Personally, I think those here that are obsessed with locking, hiding, and banning are on the

wrong message board. This message board is for the "politically liberal" who don't IMO support banning all that we disagree with.

I don't agree with pro-frackers but wouldn't think about banning them.

Ignorance is best fought with education and not shaming and ridicule.

[Lucky Luciano]

120. Honestly, it's fucking embarrassing to be sharing a msg board

With such willfully intellectually deficient people.

These people can't be reasoned with.

I similarly will not debate that the earth is round, climate change is happening, evolution is real, and creationism is stupid.

[rhett o rick]

123. I feel the same way about those that support fracking and the TPP. You always have the

option of ignoring those that you consider ignorant. I would hope you can see the slippery slope we would have if once start down the path of banning those we think are ignorant.

[daredtowork]

121. I agree

And I think the most strident group of anti-vaxx attackers have shown a pattern that makes me wonder about their purpose here. They were against the "feminists" in gamergate, which lumps them in with rightwing men's rights activists. One came out in a thread last night vociferously FOR big corporate tech (Amazon/Walmart) - that could be libertarian. I thought the same one posted a pro Hillary OP (Third Way?).

Anyway, these guys have built up a lot of posts and have not been ID'd by MIRT, so they are presumed "big tent" Democrat, I guess. But their spirit is not democratic, and I seriously doubt this is the party they vote for at the polls.

First clue: they act to make the party smaller instead of larger.

[NuclearDem]

122. No, anti-vaxxers are just wrong.

Your post is just ad hominem nonsense. You can't successfully argue against vaccines, so you paint the other side as misogynistic Third Way corporate shills.

Well, this anarchist HOF member calls bullshit.

[daredtowork]

125. That's rich

calling what I have to say "ad hominem" after days and days of trying to bully everyone who is "the other" in your book off the forum.

You can call bullshit all you want, but I can name several that fit in the same category, and I will name those names if any mod asks me to in private. However, I won't here, because it will fall into the trap usually used by those trying to game the system of cornering me into actually making an ad hominem on particular people, thus triggering the Jury System.

[NuclearDem]

134. I have no more love for anti-vaxxers than I do for chemtrailers, AIDS denialists, and creationists.

The science is in, and you guys are wrong. This kind of science denialism is not only stubborn, it's dangerous.

Anti-vaxxers have no place here.

[daredtowork]

138. your repeated assertion that I'm an anti-vaxxer is wrong

I'm anti-bullying and against running people out of the Democratic party.

[NuclearDem]

139. I'm quite happy to run anti-science types out of the party.

The GOP is the party of science denial, not the Democrats.

[rhett o rick]

144. I certainly understand having a passion about an issue, but to let it get into the

"drag them into the street and shame them or run them out of town on a rail." stage, is too much. The mob wants their frustrations sated with someone's punishment. They start by intending to punish only those that are most guilty, but it is hard to control because people get involved that are only interested in meting out the punishment, the bullying and not so much the issue. This thread is a great example. The OP author claims to be pro-vaccines but calls for reason. One can be both pro-vaccines, pro-medical science and still not trust Big Pharma. But once the self-righteous frenzy starts, it's hard to contain.

While it's progressive to believe in science it's not progressive to vilify those that don't. The best weapon to fight ignorance is education, not vilification.

[LanternWaste]

141. While we're at it, let's ease up on Flat-Earthers and Holocaust Deniers too...

While we're at it, let's ease up on Flat-Earthers and Holocaust Deniers too-- they merely lack the education our mockery denies them...

Twain, Lenny Bruce and Voltaire never, ever bullied or mocked or humiliated any one position, either...

[Johonny]

142. I'm with that

so apparently is Rude Pundit since he posted it the other day. If you fear speaking the truth about stupidity then you end up with the world you deserve. I won't shut up about the fake science, lies disguised as concern, and myths of the anti-vaxxer movement any more than Bushes lies that got us in Iraq. If people have a problem bursting their unreality bubble, that is not my problem. I certainly don't help them by saying it is okay you believe total bullshit is the truth and that no harm will come from it.

[greatauntoftriplets]

8. Please keep your hypothetical kid away from my hypothetical kid.

[Peacetrain]

77. My thoughts exactly...

I don't think this thread turned out like they hoped it would

[greatauntoftriplets]

79. No surprise there!

On edit: Five babies in the Chicago suburbs now have measles.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141007097

[zappaman]

9. What kind of medical degree do you have? n/t

[NuclearDem]

14. An MD from Google University.

[FSogol]

38. More likely: a BS from Cut and Paste Junior College

Go Pasties!

[1StrongBlackMan]

67. LOL ... Not laughing at, or even thinking about, the OP writer ...

LMBAO at the:

Cut and Paste Junior College ... Go Fighting Pasties

.html?filters[term]=pasties&filters[primary]=images&filters[secondary]=videos&sort=1&o=7

[FSogol]

106. Your image didn't post correctly.

[1StrongBlackMan]

108. Sorry. It was kind of cute. n/t

[trotsky]

75. That's good.

That's very good.

[trumad]

10. Fuck the anti-douchebag-vaxxers. ..

And all who defend them.

[FarPoint]

35. I second that opinion.

Dangerous and delusional lot. Community chaos will follow their careless choice.

[HERVEPA]

11. Take your unscientific bullshit elsewhere.

[steve2470]

12. sorry but you're wrong nt

[GeorgeGist]

13. Your CDC link doesn't work.

[HERVEPA]

15. Note favorite group - woo - Astrology, Spirituality & Alternative Healing,

[KamaAina]

80. Note username - moonbeam23

[HERVEPA]

94. yup

[Brickbat]

16. Treating diseases would make "Big Pharma" a lot more money than vaccinations do.

[madfloridian]

17. I saw friends in iron lungs because of polio. Here's a picture.

[jwirr]

37. And a lot of those kids and adults died from polio and if they did not they were physically disabled

Some were lucky they came out fine. There is a good reason why people my age are in favor of vaccinations. We saw the results. And our children did not suffer consequences down the road.

[we can do it]

93. One uncle who died from polio and another uncle and aunt who survived polio.

Both survivors had multiple problems the rest of their lives post-polio syndrome and breathing difficulties.

[Bettie]

110. Actually, I think that is a key point in this debate

Anti-vaxxers tend to be younger.

I'm 48. I was born after the polio vaccine.

I didn't go to school with kids who had polio, but I did know a few adults who had it and were disabled by it.

Now, younger moms, who are much more likely to be anti-vaccine, have never lived in a society where these diseases are common, they've never seen what happens when there is no 'herd immunity'.

It is easy to say no to vaccines when you have no idea what happens without them.

[SwissTony]

133. Well said.

I'm 64 and the polio vaccine came in when I was about 6 or 7 if memory serves me right. Polio was really scary in the 50s. I think I had all the usual child diseases, but polio was the big worry. I've seen the effects.

This is not to minimise the effects of the other disease. I wouldn't wish them on my worst enemies. My kids had their jabs and their kids are getting theirs.

[Bettie]

136. Polio was scarier

at least according to my grandma, because the results were so visible and so many people got it.

It was everywhere at one time and it was obvious.

She told me years ago about how happy people were to see a vaccine for it.

I wonder if the anti-vaccine people out there would change their minds if they saw the ravages of unchecked disease.

[Hekate]

149. When my best friend was 2 y.o., her mother died of polio. Remember LIFE magazine? Photos like yours.

My parents subscribed to LIFE -- their pictorial record was vivid, to say the least, but we also saw the results in our daily lives.

I hope your friends regained some quality of life.

[SidDithers]

18. No, the best solution for all is for people to vaccinate their kids...

Anti-vaxxers should be banned from DU, the same way that chemtrail or Illuminati CTers are.

Sid

[Lucky Luciano]

113. Yup - I alert on all anti-vaxx posts. Not on this one though, because some good shamng

Is happening here.

[Orsino]

19. Aaaaaaaaaaand...scene!

Next.

[BeeBee]

20. No, I won't.

Anti-vaxxers should be bashed... and shamed. Our side believes in science.

[moonbeam23]

24. Did you read the entire post?

i never said that there is no place for vaccines...i just said that maybe a more judicious use of them might be possible...

[RedCappedBandit]

26. Maybe.. might..

Why exactly should anyone here lend your words more credence than the CDC? Who are you? What experience do you have?

Your post essentially reads like someone who is afraid of a bunch of big scary words without any justification thereof.

[moonbeam23]

54. It's my opinion

just like you all have opinions... and i am just as entitled to spout mine as anyone else without have to absorb all this ad hominem...

Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one

[Demit]

65. Spouting your opinion doesn't give you some kind of free pass.

You have to be prepared to take your lumps. When you are spouting a medical opinion, it's completely reasonable for people to ask if you have a medical degree.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

147. Your opinion doesn't trump science

Your OP is ignorant and your views are potentially dangerous to those of us that are immuno-compromised. Your right to have a stupid opinion doesn't trump my right to be alive.

[Mika]

27. Lots here don't care. Too busy jerking knees.

Yer either with us or agin us. Got it. Move along. Nothing to see here.

[zappaman]

31. Most here do care about anti-vaxxer bullshit.

[Hekate]

150. Actually I'd say we care very much, both about science and human health. nt

[BeeBee]

74. Yes, I did read the entire post. n/t

[jakeXT]

21. There is a study on infant mortality rate and the number of vaccine doses compared to other countrie

s

When nations were grouped into five different vaccine dose ranges (12–14, 15–17, 18–20, 21–23, and 24–26), 98.3% of the total variance in IMR was explained by the unweighted linear regression model. These findings demonstrate a counter-intuitive relationship: nations that require more vaccine doses tend to have higher infant mortality rates.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3170075/

[Mika]

33. Shhhh.

You'll be labeled an anti vaxxer. DUers will be calling for your banning from DU, and/or imprisonment.
Follow the herd and you'll be fine here.

[NuclearDem]

102. Citing a study funded and conducted by anti-vaxxers will typically bring that out, yes.

Nevermind how unbelievably flawed the study is.

[moonbeam23]

36. Thanks for the link

it does seem to be along the lines of some of our thinking...


Thus, we must ask important questions: is it possible that some nations are requiring too many vaccines for their infants and the additional vaccines are a toxic burden on their health? Are some deaths that are listed within the 130 infant mortality death categories really deaths that are associated with over-vaccination? Are some vaccine-related deaths hidden within the death tables?

[Mika]

49. Studying this would be considered "woo" here.

Big Pharma and the AMA speak - people listen.

[jeff47]

101. That's because vaccines make them lose money.

Those big evil pharmaceutical companies make a buck or two per vaccine. They make hundreds to thousands treating the disease. Each case of polio would make them millions of dollars.

In other words, you haven't the slightest clue on the subject, but you've got a scary looking statistic. And you aren't afraid to use it!

[Mnemosyne]

44. Quite interesting and informative link, jake. Thanks! nt

[NuclearDem]

45. You might want to take a look at the corrections in that study.

Its authors are Neil Miller, who currently works for Think Twice, an anti-vaxxer group, and Gary Goldman, who is a former member of WAVE, another anti-vaxxer group (whose web address is actually novaccine.com).

The study was also partially funded by yet another anti-vaxxer group, NVIC.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/vaccine-schedules-and-infant-mortality-a-false-relationship-promoted-by-the-anti-vaccine-movement/

Before we get to the study itself—which, as you might imagine, has…flaws—let’s take a look at the authors. The first author, Neil Z. Miller, is described as an “independent researcher, and the second author, Gary S. Goldman, is described as an “independent computer scientist.” This is not a promising start, as neither of them appear to have any qualifications that would lead a reader to think that they have any special expertise in epidemiology, vaccines, or science. Still, I suppose one could look at the fact that these two somehow managed to get a paper published in a peer-reviewed journal as being pretty strong evidence for the democratic nature of science, where you don’t necessarily have to be affiliated with a university or a biotech or pharmaceutical company in order to publish in the scientific literature. On the other hand, even though it is stated that this was not funded by any grants or companies, I still see a conflict of interest. Specifically, the NaturalNews.com article points out that the “National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) donated $2500 and Michael Belkin donated $500 (in memory of his daughter, Lyla) for open access to the journal article (making it freely available to all researchers).” The NVIC, as you recall, was founded by Barbara Loe Fisher and is one of the oldest and most influential anti-vaccine groups in the U.S., having recently teamed up with Joe Mercola to promote anti-vaccine views.

No, most definitely not a promising start.

It’s also not surprising. I did a bit of Googling, as is my wont whenever I encounter someone whose name I don’t recognized, and I found abundant evidence in his Wikipedia entry that Miller has a long history of anti-vaccine activism, having written books with titles like Vaccine Roulette: Gambling With Your Child’s Life, Immunization Theory vs Reality: Expose on Vaccinations, and Vaccines: Are They Really Safe and Effective?, among others. But that’s not all; he’s also the director of the ThinkTwice Global Vaccine Institute and in fact is hosting a copy of this study on his website. Gary S. Goldman is even more interesting. It turns out that he is the President and Founder of Medical Veritas, a rabidly anti-vaccine “journal” that is into HIV/AIDS denialism, having published dubious “reanalyses” of autopsy results of victims of AIDS, such as Eliza Jane Scovill. He also notes at his website that he’s written books entitled The Chickenpox Vaccine: A New Epidemic of Disease and Corruption.

That the authors didn't declare this enormous conflict of interest initially should set off alarms.

[zappaman]

68. Whoopsie!

[sharp_stick]

70. You beat me to it

Well done.

It pisses me off to no end when people try to use that piece of crap paper as evidence of their antivax bullshit.

[Journeyman]

83. Thank you . . .

On the face, the study seems reasonable. I wondered, however, about the blurb that identified it as having been corrected, but haven't had time to look into that. Your post provides some very important information.

[greatlaurel]

87. In addition, SAGE got into trouble for failing to properly peer review the articles they published.

Here is a link to the Wikipedia page about SAGE publications. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sage_Publications

"In November 2013 Sage's membership was placed under review for six months after a Sage journal, the Journal of International Medical Research, published a false and intentionally flawed paper created and submitted by a reporter for Science as part of a "sting" to test the effectiveness of the peer-review processes of open access journals (see Who's Afraid of Peer Review?).[8] Sage's membership was reinstated at the end of the review period following changes to the journal's editorial processes.[9]"

There are all kinds of things wrong with the sited anti-vaccination study. The absurdity of complaining about the number of vaccinations given to children is mind boggling and shows a complete failure to comprehend germ theory and how vaccines actually work. We are routinely exposed to more than 60,000 types of germs on a daily basis. Babies' immune systems are challenged every day by the tens of thousands of germs to which they are exposed to constantly.

The most important question that never gets answered is where is the funding coming from to push all this anti-science, anti-vaccine nonsense. It could not get any traction unless there is a specific group pushing this nonsense. The message is just too consistent and persistent to be coming just from random fools who do not understand basic science facts.

[pugetres]

97. And, that study purposefully seems to obfuscate

required vaccines vs recommended vaccines.

Pneumo, roto and flu aren't required in most (any?) state in the US.

[NuclearDem]

100. It also dumbfoundingly counts vaccines like MMR as three separate vaccines.

One for measles, one for mumps, one for rubella.

Among its many many flaws.

[uppityperson]

109. Aha, thank you. I replied in depth to the study, should have read the rest of the thread first. Than

[sharp_stick]

69. You may have forgotten the correction

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3463891/

The authors "forgot" to let everyone know that they belong to Think Twice Global Vaccine Institute. Listed under Quackwatch as not to be trusted
http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/nonrecorg.html

I'm sure it was just an oversight, they weren't trying to hide the fact that they belong to a group made up for the sole purpose of convincing parents that vaccinating their kids will kill them.

The paper in and of itself is a piece of shit.

Take a look at the following.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/vaccine-schedules-and-infant-mortality-a-false-relationship-promoted-by-the-anti-vaccine-movement/

Search down the page for this. A new study, published in Human and Experimental Toxicology

[jakeXT]

72. Sounds reasonable

First off, we as skeptics have to be very careful not to become so jaded that knee-jerk hostility predominates. As unlikely as it is, there is always the possibility that there might be something worth taking seriously there.

[Demit]

71. You must take into account that countries define infant mortality differently.

Did this study you link to do that?

[uppityperson]

107. Correlation does not equal causation. "higher infant mortality rates" due to...what? The diseases

those vaccines are for? No. How many are saved as children by those vaccines? USA gives many vaccines but doesn't provide other disease prevention, health promoting things and that is a real problem.

"we must ask important questions: is it possible that some nations are requiring too many vaccines for their infants and the additional vaccines are a toxic burden on their health? "


We must also look at why the infant death rate is so high, what other causes are.

"Prior to contemporary vaccination programs, ‘Crib death’ was so infrequent that it was not mentioned in infant mortality statistics."
"Shortly thereafter, in 1969, medical certifiers presented a new medical term—sudden infant death syndrome.15,16 In 1973, the National Center for Health Statistics added a new cause-of-death category—for SIDS—to the ICD"

Again, correlation of a the increase in diagnoses of a newly named term does not mean vaccines cause that problem.

I would have an uncle who died of crib death, back in 1920's so their claim it was "Prior to contemporary vaccination programs, ‘Crib death’ was so infrequent that it was not mentioned in infant mortality statistics", is very misleading. While it may not be mentioned, it happened too often.

"Limitations of study and potential confounding factors
This analysis did not adjust for vaccine composition, national vaccine coverage rates, variations in the infant mortality rates among minority races, preterm births, differences in how some nations report live births, or the potential for ecological bias. "

Difference in what they report impacts the results.

Differences in reporting live births

Infant mortality rates in most countries are reported using WHO standards, which do not include any reference to the duration of pregnancy or weight of the infant, but do define a ‘live birth’ as a baby born with any signs of life for any length of time.12 However, four nations in the dataset—France, the Czech Republic, the Netherlands, and Ireland—do not report live births entirely consistent with WHO standards. These countries add an additional requirement that live babies must also be at least 22 weeks of gestation or weigh at least 500 grams. If babies do not meet this requirement and die shortly after birth, they are reported as stillbirths. This inconsistency in reporting live births artificially lowers the IMRs of these nations.32,33 According to the CDC, “There are some differences among countries in the reporting of very small infants who may die soon after birth. However, it appears unlikely that differences in reporting are the primary explanation for the United States' relatively low international ranking.”32 Nevertheless, when the IMRs of France, the Czech Republic, the Netherlands, and Ireland were adjusted for known underreporting of live births and the 30 data pairs retested for significance, the correlation coefficient improved from 0.70 to 0.74 (95% CI, 0.52–0.87).


All this leads back to my initial statement of what other factors are causing infants to die in the USA, and how many of those infants who survive will also survive childhood due to being vaccinated?

[DebJ]

126. Here's some info:

What are the Causes?

Fortunately, most newborns grow and thrive. However, for every 1,000 babies that are born, six die during their first year.1 Most of these babies die because they are—

Born with a serious birth defect.
Born too small and too early (i.e., preterm birth; birth before 37 weeks gestation).
Victims of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS).
Affected by maternal complications of pregnancy.
Victims of injuries (e.g., suffocation).

These top five leading causes of infant mortality together account for 58% of all infant deaths in the United States in 2011.1

http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/maternalinfanthealth/infantmortality.htm


I'm willing to bet that several of the factors above are linked to poverty and teen pregnancy. I know in our inner city,
it is very common for teen age Moms to give their infants Kool-Aid instead of formula; I've seen it on the streets many times.
It is a social/educational issue also.

[Orrex]

22. Wow. We don't get to see a lot of drive-by anti-vaxxing...

But here we are.

[MohRokTah]

28. Anti-Vaxxers are death merchants who MUST be ridiculed and shamed.

If that doesn't work, put 'em in prison.

[moonbeam23]

41. Put 'em in prison????

Who ARE you....some kind of reptilian from Draco?

[MohRokTah]

51. They are child abusers. Child abuse is a felony

Take their children away and put the child abusers in prison.

[bvf]

29. Not on the anti-vax crap per se,

but it seemed somehow appropriate:

http://www.theonion.com/video/parenting-expert-has-nerve-to-tell-you-how-to-rais,37942/

[Katashi_itto]

30. Enjoy your stay!

[Trillo]

32. No, your duty as a "good DUer" is to only listen to the science

as spewed by other DUers. Group Think!

As I look at that list, it reminds me of "nickel and diming". If all of that is good for kids, then they should be combined into one shot, with one office visit, and one copay.

Or, they should be paid for by the government and given away free at vaccination clinics. (not my idea).

I agree that there's far too much vitriol over this issue. It does make DU suck. I'm always reminded of stories such as this one, http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks .

Where's the HIV vaccine? Waiting....

[Prism]

39. Truvada is pretty close to an HIV vaccine

At least as a stand-in medication until a vaccine is developed. Once a day pill that has a high rate of effectiveness preventing infection.

[Trillo]

119. I was looking at the price. $1300 for 30 pills.

Last edited Thu Feb 5, 2015, 11:12 PM - Edit history (2)

Undoubtedly that is a research inflated cost, $43 per pill. Vaccine would be cheaper. Maybe.

It's not a bad argument for raising the minimum wage.

[Lucky Luciano]

115. If you don't like it, feel free to leave and never cme back if you are anti-vaxx. nt

[Trillo]

118. Thank you.

If you want to PM me, I'll give you my name and address and you can come visit me. I'd love it.

[Trillo]

140. Lucky Luciano never PM'd me. I'm advising other DUers that his/her words mean little

more than the spreading of hatred and contempt. I'm placing him/her on Full Ignore as of this morning.

[Lucky Luciano]

145. Why in the world did this person want me to PM them?

Bizarre.

[NickB79]

34. "A newborn's immune system needs time to mature and develop"

Standard anti-vaxxer bullshit, with no basis in science.

You worry about babies being exposed to a couple dozen immunological challenges from vaccines (which are either dead or severely weakened when injected), but a baby on a daily basis will be exposed to HUNDREDS of different bacteria, viruses, potential allergens, etc on a daily basis.

"Oh no, poor little Timmy's body just can't handle the MMR shot yet. Oh look, he's sucking on the cat's paws, how cute!"

Exposure to various immunological challenges IS HOW YOU STRENGTHEN THE IMMUNE SYSTEM! That's why we use vaccines in the first place: they're controlled doses of non-infectious diseases which are far safer than exposure to the real thing in the wild.

Your argument is crap.

[steve2470]

42. you nailed it

I was reading about bacteria last night and gut flora. An excerpt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora#Acquisition_of_gut_flora_in_human_infants

All infants are initially colonized by large numbers of E. coli and streptococci. Within a few days, bacterial numbers reach 108 to 1010 per gram of feces.[28][30] During the first week of life, these bacteria create a reducing environment favorable for the subsequent bacterial succession of strict anaerobic species mainly belonging to the genera Bifidobacterium, Bacteroides, Clostridium, and Ruminococcus.[31] Breast-fed babies become dominated by bifidobacteria, possibly due to the contents of bifidobacterial growth factors in breast milk.[32][33] In contrast, the microbiota of formula-fed infants is more diverse, with high numbers of Enterobacteriaceae, enterococci, bifidobacteria, Bacteroides, and clostridia.[34][35]

[uppityperson]

88. Thank you for writing that so I don't have to. + a brazillion. eom

[Aristus]

43. The assertion that infant and childhood vaccines are 'heavy stimulation' is false.

At least in terms of 'overloading' the immune system and risking onset of auto-immune disorders.

Vaccines are supposed to stimulate the immune system to produce antibodies to the associated diseases.

Low post-count and "middle way" advocacy.

Hmm...

That's not suspicious at all...

[Ilsa]

46. There are plenty of bashers on DU

that won't take their own medicine. Some have valid reasons; others have excuses. That was the point of an earlier thread.

My kids are vaxxed. I'm vaxxed. But I had an issue with the Hep B at birth vaccine also.

[salin]

47. outbreak of measles at day care in suburban illinois - several of the babies are under 1 yrs old.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026184069

Read the link.

Down thread someone asks where the cases linked to the Disney out break (which states), and indeed Illinois is one of the states.

The asympotamtic while contagious (for four days) and the high rate of infection when exposed is going to make for a very long winter this year. I expect this is just the first of many daycares and schools that become hotbeds for clusters of outbreaks.

[procon]

48. Appropriate screen name... nt

[HERVEPA]

52. Exactly. And results of alert, sadly

3-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It will be a sad day when we ban expressing an opinion.
But that is what the alerter is asking us to do...no thinks for censoring ideas
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: LEAVE IT ALONE,,,,,,,,,,,,..king fixity,l😔😳😳😌😳😍😳😭😅😞😜😞😳😔😢😱⛺️⛺️🏤🌉🏬🏯ðŸ
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Anti Vaccination zealots should not be provided a platform for their dangerous ideas.

[steve2470]

56. by the logic of some of these jurors...

we need to be OK with discussing flat earth, moon landing conspiracy, demon possession, ad infinitum.

I'm ok with discussing things NOT settled by science (i.e, Higgs Boson I think ?), but come on. This vaccine "discussion" was settled a long time ago.

[Rex]

50. That's it! You've convinced me to go swimming in a medical waste dumpster!

It is my choooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooice!!!! GOSH...why does this argument remind me of another group of wackadoodles?


We want the right to be HUGE MORANS TOO! WE CHOOSE TO BE!

[FSogol]

55. Freedumb and Freeberty! Measles are just Liberty Spots.

[Rex]

61. Anyone that says I can't get polio, is stepping on my freedumbs!

Have we reached Idiocracy levels yet or do we still have a ways to go?


So like you got this bumpy shit all over your body or junk.

[Arugula Latte]

59. That's a great idea! You'll build your immune system that way!

[Rex]

63. And it's FREE!

Shit...why didn't I think of it before now!


Better yet...I just found this bucket full of pills! Have no idea what they are, but hey if I take them ALL AT ONCE it should protect me from everything they were made for right!?

[NCTraveler]

53. You will find more...

You will find more scientists willing to state that climate change has nothing to do with carbon emissions than you will scientist willing to state vaccines cause autism. It is truly a stronger anti-science stance than climate change deniers. I am talking scientist educated directly in the field of each issue.

[Arugula Latte]

58. Sorry but your take on immunology doesn't make me confident in your conclusions.

Call me crazy, but I'll take scads of peer-reviewed research over the homespun gut-feeling-opinions pulled out of the heineys of random non-scientists.

[ProfessorGAC]

60. Sigh!

Cherry picking at its finest, followed by conclusions unsupported by the "facts" presented.

Utterly ridiculous.

[Godhumor]

64. God, I wish there was a vaccine against stupidity

Not that the people who need it most would take it...

[Initech]

66. It's the outrage du jour. Sit back and enjoy the show.

[hack89]

76. Hepatitis B is not running rampant because of an aggressive vaccination campaign started in 1982

before then about 250,000 people were infected annually.

Did you even think before posting that? The purpose of vaccines is to eradicate disease - you can't use the low number of cases to say you don't need vaccines.

[Liberal Veteran]

78. So at average volume dose of 0.5ml less than a tablespoon total of vaccine over 18 months?

How terrifying!

[MohRokTah]

81. The anti-vaxxers will grasp at any straw these days.

Reality is showing them for the nutballs they truly are.

[TBF]

82. It's mind-numbing that liberals

Buy into the woo and choose a position so at odds with general public health concerns.

As a socialist I'd like to see vaccines covered as part of a single-player health care program. I'm going to have to do some research on Canada and see how they have addressed this.

[we can do it]

90. No. Antiscience, antifact idiots are ruining this country.

[kcr]

91. Why stop there?

Let's just all assume we know and are our own experts on everything. From now on, I'm just going to assume I know better than anyone the maintenance schedule for my automobile even though I have no experience whatsoever in auto mechanics. I'm supposed to replace my brakes? Eh, whatever. I'm going to drive on the roads with everyone else anyway because I know my car better and feel it's just a racket to make money. I'll just go by feel. That's safe enough! What, I'm supposed to care about others on the road? Whatever, that's their problem.

[lumberjack_jeff]

96. Vaccination as a DU topic is exclusively about dogwhistling and tribalism.

http://www.npr.org/2015/02/04/383724467/the-psychology-behind-why-some-kids-go-unvaccinated

We're on the side of the angels... and Glaxo SmithKline.

[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]NPR 2/4/15[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]GREENE: You know, I want to start by bringing up a story that you did on this program last year. I remember it well. You said that telling parents who are afraid of vaccinating their children about the safety of vaccines might actually go in the other direction. It might be ineffective. They might be less likely to get their kids immunized.

VEDANTAM: That's right, David. This was a study by Brendan Nyhan at Dartmouth, and he and his colleagues found that messages that tout the health benefits and the safety of vaccines are most effective when it comes to persuading people who already believe that vaccines are safe and effective. When it comes to parents who are worried about the safety of vaccines, the researchers found the messages were not only ineffective, but potentially counterproductive because worried parents became less likely to want to vaccinate their children after hearing these messages.

GREENE: Why would that be? Why would people who hear a message that vaccines are safe, you know, be even less likely to get these vaccinations?

VEDANTAM: You know, David, there is a small warehouse backed with research studies that find that our beliefs on all manner of issues are shaped by our pre-existing views. You know, that doesn't we're completely deaf to the evidence, it just means that we filter how we interpret the evidence through our pre-existing beliefs and our loyalties to various groups and tribes. And we see this in all manner of settings, not just in public health settings. The people who believe President Obama was born in Kenya, for example, were overwhelmingly likely to be people who didn't like President Barack Obama. If you looked at the recent football scandal over deflated footballs, people in New England were far more likely than people anywhere else in the country to believe that quarterback Tom Brady and coach Bill Belichick didn't know what was going on. So vaccines and the concerns about vaccines are an example of this much larger phenomenon, which is once you believe in something, it's very hard to debunk that belief. And when someone comes along and tries to debunk that belief, they get seen as being part of the conspiracy theory.

Public health is not served by politicizing it.

[Ilsa]

99. Nailed it: Public health is not served by politicizing it. nt

[RiffRandell]

103. No. nt.

[Lucky Luciano]

105. LOL at someone named Moonbeam spouting anti-vaxxer garbage. nt

[Overseas]

124. I empathize with those wanting to wait a while. But instead of explanations of the timing, they get

stomped upon for even daring to question things.

It's so easy to stomp on them. Everyone can feel so righteous. Easy win. Ha ha ha dumb anti-vaxxers.

But why not help them understand why their tiny helpless infants need so many shots so soon-- why not let the parents know when and where their kids are likely to be exposed to the dangers the shots protect them from?

[MattBaggins]

131. That information is readily available

For instance, Hep B., can be quickly researched, and the parents could understand why it is given on day 1; but no, they intentionally dumb themselves down with fucking "natural news" bullshit and do that fucking "I just have concerns"crapola.

The doctors do fucking inform them as to why a vaccine is being given, but these moronic young people today are so fucking convinced that they know as much as someone who went to college for years and might even have decades of experience in the field of Medicine.

Fuck these morons. just fuck them sideways.

[Hekate]

151. The facts have been explained over & over & over here, yet not one anti-vaxxer has budged...

...nor acknowledged the validity of scientific facts proven again and again. One genius even complained that a certain issue had been studied 40 times!!!!11!!! as a way to demonstrate how few times that was. Ummm -- 40 is a lot.

Historical data, statistics, graphic photos, mortality rates, personal experience -- nothing persuades, nothing gets through. It's like beating your head against a brick wall. Ignorance can be cured, but The Stupid is a lifestyle choice.

We didn't all start out mocking them; I know I didn't. But I for one, have lost patience. Others can speak for themselves.

[DebJ]

127. Well, now, consider this information, and tell me what's so terrible about it, please.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/cases-deaths.pdf

[DebJ]

128. So it was better then that I almost failed first grade because I contracted

red measles, German measles, mumps, chicken pox, and complications with strep throat and tonsilitis,
resulting in having my tonsils and adenoids removed in 2nd grade, missing yet more school?

Literally, I have two memories of first grade:
The first one is lying on the cot at the end of the hall in school, behind the white screen, for my Daddy to come and bring me home.
The second one is of a peer who was promoted to third grade in the middle of the year.


When I was a child, the only vaccines available were small pox, and polio.

I and my three sisters each caught all of these horrible diseases. In an era where most families, like mine, didn't have air conditioning.
Measles and chicken pox are hell in hot weather.... the sweat pours even faster and makes everything all the itchier. I and each of my
sisters have problems with allergies. That's not a scientific study result, just a note, since you mentioned concern that immune systems
are hyped up by the vaccines.

On the other hand, my two children, born in the early 80s, were vaccinated for everything except chicken pox, which was not yet available.
They missed no school, suffered not at all except with the chicken pox. They each grew up much taller and stronger than previous generations of my family, since their bodies weren't ravaged by all these nightmares in their growing years. They do not have any allergies, just another note, not a study.

[killbotfactory]

129. Nah. We've been giving our kid all the vaccinations recommended.

Giving them a dead virus so their immune system can find it and know how to fight it in the future seems like the humane thing to do. You know, since we don't want her to get sick from easily preventable diseases, and don't want her to sicken other people (especially the large population of retirees) in our community.

[MattBaggins]

130. The stuff you posted is nonsense and deserves to be bashed

[LostOne4Ever]

132. Unrec! Vacc Schedules have shown to be safe. (nt)

[Dwayne Hicks]

137. Anti-vaxxers

Deserve to be ridiculed and bashed. Im sorry but we are right and you are wrong. Period.

[Orsino]

143. Sure. Just tell the measles to slow down...

...and the debate can proceed at a pace you're comfortable with.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

148. You mentioning "common sense" is fucking laughable

If you used common sense, you'd look at the actual science. There's very little "sense" in your OP.

Attitudes like yours have the potential to kill, and you damn well should be shamed into either pulling your head out or shutting the hell up so you don't infect the ignorant with your dangerous views.

Fuck...