Cut the crap!

[whatchamacallit]

NO ONE is dismissing, excusing, condoning, endorsing... terrible crimes committed by ISIS when analogous acts committed by the US, or others, are brought into the conversation. There are no DUers who don't want to see justice done for the victims. The comparisons are to remind people that such crimes are not so unprecedented and singularly barbaric that we MUST act hastily!

They are also a reminder of America's inability to address these things proportionally. It's a big stick and you better know what you're doing before you start swinging it around. If we go in, we will kill more innocents than we "avenge". There's a lot going on here, a lot we don't know, and a lot of information that's hard to process. And we've had our chains yanked repeatedly before (Kuwaiti incubator babies anyone?). Yes ISIS sucks ass, but the reflexive saber rattling is exactly what they, and their western counterparts want.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

1. Yep, and lets remember who created ISIS, George W Bush and Richard Cheney

[whatchamacallit]

2. Yes, the same folks who want us over there forever. n/t

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

5. Simple solution S I M P L E

The front line troops are the sons and daughters of current House and Senate and WH occupancy.

[napkinz]

35. don't forget Reagan

[treestar]

3. Act hastily meaning get involved with the military

I don't think anyone is rushing to do that. Though I haven't checked with Republicans lately. I would guess John Maverick McWar is already for it.

[Fred Sanders]

4. Instant outrage syndrome is mainly harmless on comment boards, it is idiotic in real life.

[Cleita]

38. The problem is that the idiots in real life will act more quickly and irrationally if they

feel they have the public behind them.

[B2G]

6. So what do you suggest we do?

I'd love to hear your solution to this.

[whatchamacallit]

9. I'm not sure yet

but I know there are parties that want you to freak. Funny, these kinds of atrocities have been going on a long time in the third world, with little or no coverage. But ISIS, as the newest horror of horrors in the region where our interests lie, get their crimes promoted 24/7.

[redgreenandblue]

11. This:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026193432

[KingCharlemagne]

32. You did not deserve ths scorn you got there, btw. - nt

[Cleita]

42. There seems to be an opinion that ISIS is spreading these allegations of atrocities

themselves because they want us to engage them. They believe a ground war is to their advantage, therefore I believe we should be very hesitant to let them have their way.

[dissentient]

7. Good rant. And I for one am getting tired of seeing duers who either won't acknowledge

the U.S. has committed war crimes in the recent past, or try and minimize it and act like it isn't relevant at all. Here is my own rant to them --

Yes, it is very relevant. It is called hypocrisy, and saying one thing while doing the exact opposite. Face it, the U.S. has set off all this chaos and violence by its military actions starting from the Iraq invasion and continuing on in the never ending war on terror. Stop pretending the U.S. has nothing to do with it, and that we are just innocent do gooders who have to save the world.

[Egnever]

14. No just no

While I agree we have a lot to be ashamed of when it comes to our invasion of Iraq there is a huge difference between invading a country and using people's grisly death's as promotional video.

[whatchamacallit]

18. The difference being

that we hide our crimes so they can continue? Remember the ban on photos of flag-draped coffins returning from the ME. You are outraged because these crimes, unlike ours, are being promoted by the U.S. media. Played like a fiddle.

[Egnever]

20. LOL

So you are comparing bush being afraid to show the coffins coming home to burning a man alive. Got it.

Have you watched the video?

Funny you wont answer that.

[whatchamacallit]

22. No I haven't watched it

I'm sure I'd be appaled and deeply disturbed by it, but it no more so than I'd be by watching the same kind of display from any number of groups in history who've done these kinds of things. If the US decided to video tape what we did in Fallujah and make it available for your viewing pleasure, would you have the same morbid fascination? Would you be foaming at the mouth for action? I kinda doubt it...

[Egnever]

27. As I said above

I was here protesting it at the time and in the streets protesting it before it was started. That in no way excuses ISIS for what they are doing nor does it mean we should allow it to continue.

The Iraq invasion was totally unjustified and our leadership under dim son promoted behavior we should all be ashamed of still that in no way excuses ISIS nor does it mean we should stand by while they continue what they are doing.

[whatchamacallit]

41. And again no one makes the comparisons to excuse ISIS

That's your rationale.

[Egnever]

43. Then what is the point in your mind?

Cause all I get from your post is we are just as bad so we shouldn't do a damn thing about it. Which is complete horse shit. I am not buying the hasty crap either this has been going on for months now.

Are you just trying to point out all the bad shit that has ever happened in the world? What is the point in that?

[whatchamacallit]

45. Most people in this thread had no problem understanding the meaning of the OP

and it's not the same as your take. Let that be a clue.

[Egnever]

47. So you cant spell it out

Got it.

[whatchamacallit]

56. I did spell it out

You dont got it.

[treestar]

62. No you didn't, you used the bandwagon fallacy

Everyone else understands. Adding a hint of ad hominem that the poster must be intellectually deficient not to.

[zeemike]

51. Did you watch the video Chelsea Manning released that was supposed to be kept secret?

Did you see some journalist gunned down by our side and when a car with a family stopped to help them they got it too?...did that affect you at all?

So then he was right, we keep it secret so we can keep doing it, they publicize it so we will want more war.

[Egnever]

52. Couldn't help but see it

Was plastered all over here. Funny how you can be outraged about that but not about ISIS.

Seems odd to me.

Both are terrible and should be condemned.

[zeemike]

53. It is not odd at all.

We should be outraged because we have a value and a constitution for forbids it...they don't
We hold moral superiority over the world, they don't.
So then who is the greater outrage?...the one who does evil and says they do or the ones who denounnces it and does it too?

Hypocrites get my attention first.

[treestar]

63. Then maybe they should?

Holy cow. You are saying they can do it because they don't have ideals about it.

[zeemike]

64. Well I don't give permission for them to do it.

But what I AM saying is that WE do it in spite of our moral and legal system forbids it...which deletes our moral reason to tell others not to.
It is hypocrisy pure and simple.

[shadowmayor]

23. Selective outrage

Nasty is nasty, evil is evil no matter the perpetrator. Srebrenica, the slaughter of Muslims? The crushing of Fallujah? Where was our outrage?

The DoD made loads of promotional videos as did others paid by the DoD and America for the most part cheered wildly. Try some You Tube videos of Let the Bodies Hit the Floor or vids of tanks or bombs or firefights. I'm not talking about home-made one-offs. There are plenty with some serious production levels that were used to promote our invasion, occupation, and crushing of the Iraqi people.

The opening night of the invasion on March 19 was shown over and over on American TV. Some of us were horrified. Many of us cheered. Too many of us loved every bloody minute of it - the flames, the smoke, the explosions. But almost never the mangled masses and pools of blood. All by design.

The Shadow Mayor

[Egnever]

25. LOL I am quite sure you can go back in DU history

And find posts of mine calling all of that out. I was in the streets protesting the invasion before it started. Where were you?

Being outraged about both does not stop one from condemning ISIS or the horrific crap they are doing.

[shadowmayor]

26. It's a bit complicated

I protested the war and I was in the military at the same time. In 2005 I was stop-lossed and cross leveled into an MP reserve unit in NY. I was and engineer and spent all of 2005 in Abu Ghraib prison as an engineer, soldier, and as a human being. I spoke out against the invasion from the beginning and many of my fellow soldiers thought I was some kind of commie-kissing pointy headed nutjob. After a few months in Abu, many came to me late at night to talk about what was really going on in Iraq. Some changed their minds, others are still confused and some are still convinced of our might makes right, America is always the good guy myth.

So in short, I did what I could over here and over there and now I am a warrior for peace. If you were over there I hope you are doing well.

Shadow Mayor

[Egnever]

28. I am glad you made it out safely

It could not have been easy to have the position you did being right in the middle of it. I applaud your courage for having held fast to your beliefs.

[KingCharlemagne]

33. Thank you for your acts of resistance. You can never know for sure, but it's entirely possible

that your resistance inspired other words and acts of resistance and lessened the cruelty and barbarity in some measurable way. At the end of the day, that's really all you or anyone can do, I think.

I was protesting here 2-3 times per week from 2001-2008. (Actually ramped up in the run-up to Iraq and after the invasion, but my wife and I had started protesting back in November 2001.) Talk about an exercise in futility.

[sabrina 1]

37. Good post, thank you. Whenever we are shown a few of the massive number of atrocities

that have taken place in that region of the world, we know we are being manipulated into reacting the 'right way', WAR, 'we need to DO something'.

The fact is, what Bush/Cheney did, caused this in the first place. So people will not remember that we are never shown atrocities like Fallujah, eg.

What is encouraging though is to see that people are a lot more cautious this time. Hopefully wiser heads will prevail.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. Well said. K&R

[Egnever]

10. Not sure how you reconcile that.

When these things happened in the past was nothing done about them?

Are you suggesting we should just ignore injustice because it has happened before?

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

[whatchamacallit]

12. Yes, most of the time nothing was done

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026193575#post9

No one is saying nothing should be done, but what and by whom are important details.

[Egnever]

13. Still not clear what you are saying

Your objection is we should talk about our options?

Is that not what is going on?

This is not the first completely barbaric thing this group has done and then used as some sort of promotional ad. How long are we supposed to stand by before it is ok to be outraged about it?

Have you watched the video?

This group is not just committing barbaric acts they are reveling in it.

[whatchamacallit]

16. Your mind is captured and locked

There is nothing new about this, save the collusion with western media to put it in your face for effect. You seem to be missing or ignoring the point of the OP, which is, clarifying why US atrocities are germane.

[Egnever]

17. Germane to what?

You think because we invaded Iraq this somehow justifies what ISIS is doing?

Fuck that. Invading Iraq was wrong but there is no justification for what these cretins are doing.

Have you seen the video?

[whatchamacallit]

19. No only you think that

due to a problem with reading comprehension. The OP is meant to dispel the very dumbass notion you just repeated.

[great white snark]

30. Bullshit. What "analogous acts" compare to beheadings glorified on video?

I know you're compelled to dump on the US at every opportunity but these comparisons, no matter how you justify them, are idiotic.

[KingCharlemagne]

34. Sigh. How about Abu Ghraib? You are aware, I trust, that there are credible reports of U.S.

personnel and mercenaries sodomizing Iraqi children in the presence of their parents (mothers)? Is that 'analagous' enough for you?

If you want official confirmation of analagous acts, the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intellgence released an Executive Summary that confirms the CIA tortured detainees to death. Is that 'analagous' enough for you????

[whatchamacallit]

40. But there's no video being stuffed up our asses

Therefore it didn't happen.

[Egnever]

44. And it was condemned and rightfully so.

How does that change the fact that what ISIS is doing is horrific and needs to be stopped?

[whatchamacallit]

46. It doesn't

Why are you unable to perceive anything outside your own projection?

[Egnever]

48. Perceive what?

That bad stuff has happened in the past? No one denies that. It has absolutely no bearing on what ISIS is doing now.

Horrific acts should always be condemned and confronted.

[whatchamacallit]

55. And they are being condemned

Show me the post, any post, that says "we did/do bad shit so ISIS should be given a pass." You can't because it doesn't exist. That was YOUR read when people brought US crimes into the discussion. YOU decided that's what it meant, all it could mean, and then threw a fucking outrage fit over your misunderstanding. Thems the facts.

[KingCharlemagne]

54. Are you sure your post was intended for me? Because I was responding

to someone named 'great white sSnark' who asked how what we did was in any way analogous to the bad acts of ISIS. I provided two examples of analogues, the first (sodomizing Iraqi children in the presence of their parents) alleged by various journalists, the second (murder of detainees by the CIA) authenticated by the U.S. Senate.

I said nothing about my thoughts on the so-called ISIS, nor offered any opinion on a preferred policy or couse of action wrt ISIS.

Would you prefer I chose up sides?

[whatchamacallit]

36. All this talk of justifying and condoning flying around here

You're obviously compelled to justify and condone anything we do. Beheadings are a routine matter with our allies in Saudi Arabia. What do you want to do about it? Your inner jingo betrays you.

[PotatoChip]

29. Why do *we* have to do anything beyond what we are already doing?

We have been assisting the Kurds and others who are fighting ISIS. There really is nothing further we can do beyond sending in troops for a 'boots on the ground' mission. This would dramatically up the possibility of a significant number of casualties for us.

I'm not saying that we should completely rule it out. However, I'd first like to see more countries in that region setting aside their differences so that they can all fight as allies against the ISIS menace. It is their neighborhood after all.

Why isn't Israel in on this yet? They are armed to the teeth (thanks to us) and have a military trained and ready to go. Instead of using all of that military equipment on a defenseless population, maybe they ought to try fighting a real war for a change.

In addition to Israel, other countries in the region could (and should) be doing much more than they are currently doing... which appears to range from little to nothing.

[Egnever]

31. Everyone should be doing something about it.

You get no argument from me about that.

My argument comes when people try to pretend that because similar things have happened in the past nothing should be done now.

Or in the case of the OP pretending that after months of this activity going on we are somehow acting hastily now.

[99Forever]

15. Amen Brother(or Sister)!

The same crowd has cried wolf too damn many times to buy their "dis iz da worstest nasty boogymen that ever waz" crap again.

No sale, warmongers.

[whereisjustice]

21. When we torture and kill civilians, it is for a good cause. See the difference?

[Electric Monk]

24. So we read, and we watched, all the specially selected news...

and we learned so much more 'bout the good guys!

[KingCharlemagne]

39. Allow Gandhi to provide the correct perspective:

"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?"

~Gandhi, Non-violence in Peace and War (1942)

[pansypoo53219]

49. meanwhile, boko haram has burned over a dozen to death.

but they are brown, so its ok.

[Cleita]

50. Also, they don't haveoil. Eom

[MannyGoldstein]

57. That's the thing, exactly.

It's not horrific if there's no profit potential.

[Scuba]

58. Bingo!

[treestar]

61. Nigeria does have oil

http://www.energytrendsinsider.com/research/crude-oil/where-the-us-gets-its-oil-from/

[Prism]

65. Yeah, it's Africa

Where the West's policy seems to be, "Maybe they'll all kill each other and then we won't have to deal with it."

Sometimes we're just assholes.

[Scuba]

59. Makes one wonder about the motives of those who make such arguments.

[napkinz]

60. kick

nt