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CaliforniaPeggy
(156,619 posts)My parents had that discussion with me and my brother, and me and my husband have had it with our children. Leave nothing to chance.
Fearless
(18,458 posts)Granted I would rather live with any quality of life than die myself. But again, that's just me.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)Nobody wants to die.
Do you put any limits on your quality of life? You say any, but I'm curious.
What if you're in a persistent vegetative state? What if you have severe dementia and are not longer able to function?
Perhaps you would still want to carry on in that state. That's cool. But what of your loved ones?
Keep in mind, by this time these folks are dying. Death is not usually an overnight event.
Giving people who are dying antibiotics , or oxygen or hydration is not a life saving event. It's a prolonging of death event. They are going to die. You cannot stop it, but you can prolong the death through medicine. Prolong, not prevent.
Modern medicine has complicated the death process.
pnwmom
(110,261 posts)By the time I met him, Vincent was no longer really with us. The only signs of life occurred during dressing changes and bed-turning, when, despite extra pain medication, pain fired up dormant neurons and his blue eyes flared. There was no family, no friend, no person from Vincent’s life to serve as a guide for our treatment goals. There was only his advance medical directive, which he had completed 10 years and a lifetime earlier at the age of 75. And a handwritten note stapled twice to the form.
SNIP
The measures taken to minimize the spread of these dangerous bacteria further isolated him from the world of the living. He would never again feel the touch of human skin on his body, just the leathery latex of a disposable glove, the brush of a papery gown.
SNIP
On that ninth admission, when I took over his care, I was almost unable to complete my physical exam. This man’s body was being eaten away to a degree I had never seen. Autodigested while dying. Even with the most attentive nursing care, a flaccid, dying body has pressure points where thin skin eventually breaks down. In bad cases, the tissue breakdown extends into muscle, and in the worst cases, it goes down to the bone. Vincent’s shoulder and heel ulcers were severe. But the one that stopped me in my tracks started at the low end of his spine and spread toward his left hip, melting skin and muscle away so that his entire hip socket lay open to the air. Even as a seasoned I.C.U. physician, I gasped the first time I laid eyes on it.
I am sure that Vincent could not have known what he was setting himself up for when he wrote that note. He could never have imagined that with our fancy treatments, we could keep his body going even while it was trying its hardest to die. And now he was suffering, with every terrible dressing change, every lonely hour in an I.C.U. isolation room, and all of his grit drained from his body.
Fearless
(18,458 posts)So long as there is brain activity it is my request that reasonable action be taken to preserve my life using my own funds.
pnwmom
(110,261 posts)like this man, and your only perception was pain, why would you want to have your dying process indefinitely extended?
In cases like this, it's not so much a matter of preserving life as in prolonging the inevitable dying process. Much of his body was already dead, with just a spark of life keeping him going.
Fearless
(18,458 posts)What I said stands.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)If your loved one has a DNR and then dies, don't call the aid car. Some of them think they have to resuscitate, even if you have a DNR.
Also, I don't think a typical DNR covers withholding antibiotics, oxygen, nutrition, and water. Make sure it does. Those can be hard decisions if you haven't discussed it with the loved one. I know first hand.
GP6971
(38,013 posts)was the day I had to invoke my wife's Living Will. Thankfully, her's was very, very specific concerning nutrition, water, oxygen and life prolonging medicines. And yes, DNR means DNR no matter if the person died.....no sense calling the ambulance.
mimi85
(1,805 posts)They vary by state. My husband and I did this.There are other sites that have them for free also. Just do a google. I think you need two witnesses (it's been awhile). Glad we have wonderful neighbors! 
https://www.rocketlawyer.com/form/advance-directive.rl
Stellar
(5,644 posts)I'll look into this.
LostOne4Ever
(9,752 posts)Last edited Sun Feb 8, 2015, 08:52 PM - Edit history (3)
[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Living Wills and DNRs are good things but they are still non-sentient and that means they do carry some risk especially in situations where the prognosis is unclear or in situations that the patient did not consider when writing up the document.
For example, my mother has multiple medical issues and had both a DNR and a medical power of attorney given to my step father and me. About 4 1/2 years ago she had a seizure and was sent to our small town hospital. By the time she got there she was in a coma and they didn't know what was wrong with her and were going to send her to a bigger hospital in the nearest big city hospital when she had three more seizures and then stopped breathing.
Had we not over-ridden her DNR she would have died. But at that time, no one knew what was wrong with her. We didn't know if she would be able to recover from whatever was wrong with her or not.
But we knew why she had the DNR and why she had given us MPoA. She didn't want to be a vegetable living on machines for the rest of her life. However, we also knew that if there was a chance of her recovering and returning to any semblance of normalcy she would want us to take it.
Turns out that the seizures and coma were caused by a bad drug interaction. We think she stopped breath because of complications from her MS. She survived and made a full recovery and was grateful that we made that call.
I am not saying that DNRs are bad. Rather, I am saying that a medical power of attorney to someone who knows your end of life wishes, and who you know will respect them is even better! They can respond to these more nebulous situations in a way that only a living thinking human being can.
[center][font color=Scarlet face=papyrus] Edit: different font[/center][/font][/font]
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)I gave up after the first paragraph. Too much effort to try to read it, started getting a headache.
Just thought you might want to know.
LostOne4Ever
(9,752 posts)[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]I will try and find one that doesn't give people headaches while still being different from the default.[/font]
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)It's not all bunched together and is a lovely color!
marym625
(17,997 posts)Even when the reality is, there is none.
I have made it perfectly clear to my friends and family, I don't want to live if that life is not actually living. And my idea of living doesn't include having to be cared for in anyway.
The only thing I would say about the withholding water is that I believe keeping the mouth and lips hydrated does nothing but comfort. I mean sips of water if that is possible to give.
My cousin has in his orders, if he isn't "fuckable" pull the plug.
Thank you for the post. Perhaps if Bobbi Kristina Brown had a living will and had discussed her wishes with her family, the ongoing tragedy would not be happening. I don't know she didn't but it seems not to have been. Even at such a young age, these matters should be addressed.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)and under hospice care, it got to the point where she was comatose and the best we could do was use Chap Stick on her lips and give her little dabs of water by mouth using special sponges on a long stick.
Like you said, comfort...and that's all we could really do.
marym625
(17,997 posts)And her suffering.
I've done this with more family members than I care to think about.
The fact so many of them sacked so hard on the sponge tells me it's a necessity. I suppose it could be reflex but I don't think so.
Phentex
(16,709 posts)My father in law had a dnr. He made his wishes well known. Toward the end, my fundie brother in law was the one making my mother in law feel guilty. It took a while to get her to understand this was not love. Even though he had the dnr, I think she had to sign something else for the care facility to finally stop them from taking measures to keep him going.
I have threatened to haunt my husband if he kept me alive under those circumstances.
marym625
(17,997 posts)It's terrible your MIL had to go through that. Especially since your FIL had a DNR.
My grandmother had many strokes. The last one left her unable to do anything but blink. The family, 7 kids, discussed a feeding tube and decided against it. Though one aunt was hard to convince
They transferred her to a nursing home, because God forbid they should let her die in peace with more attentive care. We knew she only had days.
The one aunt rode in the ambulance with my grandmother. By the time we got to the Catholic nursing home, she had a feeding tube in. The nurse at the nursing home convinced and guilted my aunt into believing not putting one in was a slow, painful death. Which is an outright lie.
My father went ballistic on both my aunt and the nurse. He demanded they remove the feeding tube but it would have taken a court order once it was in.
A little over 2 weeks later my grandmother died in my father's arms. That nurse walled in the room, looked at my grieving father with his dead mother in his arms and said, "are you happy now? You got what you wanted."
How horrible.
My husband has a sibling that couldn't let go when their father was in late stage Alzheimer's and dying from pneumonia.
My FIL instructions were very clear, but the sibling had a very hard time with it.
marym625
(17,997 posts)Me too. Thank you.
I can understand not wanting to let go. But not to the extent that you are blocking the wishes of your loved one.
I am a firm believer in physician assisted dying.
I'm sorry about what your family went through
Phentex
(16,709 posts)I am so sorry you and your father had to go through that!
marym625
(17,997 posts)Some people shouldn't be working with people. That nurse was one of them. I don't think my father ever really got over it.
Omaha Steve
(109,228 posts)They know I don't want to go out on my diseases terms.
K&R!
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)dembotoz
(16,922 posts)no questions at all
no guilt by anyone
LeftishBrit
(41,453 posts)My mother (still alive with reasonable quality of life at present) has made an Advance Directive, including a request not to resuscitate, and has given me Power of Attorney. I really ought to do something similar for myself, as one never knows what can happen.
hunter
(40,690 posts)... that sometimes makes me entirely unable to discern my own mental state, especially whenever I've quit my meds for some idiot reason. I've learned to trust friends and family, often by very hard knocks, to carefully maintain my community support system.
I trust those supports will be still be there for me when my body and mind are dysfunctional beyond any reasonable hope, when I'm circling the drain.
It would be awesome if I could be polar bear food, but my ashes, as minor nutrients in the Pacific Ocean, that would be satisfactory too.
Sadly, it's probably illegal to bury my dead body beneath some random tree, like a dead pet hamster or goldfish. I'm sure I'd make fine fertilizer for a tall redwood or tasty apple tree.