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Chapel hill shooter was a 'militant atheist' who fantasised that religion would 'go away'.
A Facebook page with his name from Durham and carrying atheist slogans has triggered speculation that the attack is religion-motivated.
The suspected shooter recently posted a Facebook photo of "my loaded 38 revolver":
He also described religion as a "pyramid scam" in other posts. The cover picture for the Facebook profile, which could not be independently verified by IBTimes UK, also reads: "Anti-theism/Of course I want religion to go away".
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/chapel-hill-shooting-gunman-craig-hicks-militant-atheist-who-fantasised-that-religion-would-1487502
There has been some speculation that the murders were motivated by a parking dispute. But if they do turn out to be motivated by hatred of religion, we should bear in mind that this guy is not representative of all atheists. Indeed, Richard Dawkins has condemned the killings. See http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/richard-dawkins-condemns-chapel-hill-shooting-suspected-to-have-been-carried-out-by-antitheist-that-left-three-muslims-dead-10037983.html
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Peacetrain
(22,877 posts)That poor family..
Edit to add: Parking disputes also? I just do not understand people anymore... Three people killed for what?? I just don't understand people anymore.. God be with that family in their time of grief..
dem in texas
(2,674 posts)It's because so many people are now carrying guns. They get hot under the collar over some trivial matter, pull out their gun and start shooting. It happens here in Dallas all the time - road rage has now become road rage killing.
Peacetrain
(22,877 posts)People are on knife edge all the time it seems.. so afraid of everything and everyone that does not look or think like them..
atreides1
(16,087 posts)DetlefK
(16,423 posts)An oppressed Christian will make that connection in 3... 2... 1...
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Dr. Strange
(25,921 posts)Clearly.
benz380
(534 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)It is just like the religious fanatics who view those outside of their beliefs to be their enemies. An atheist kills Muslims and your reaction is about Christians. The obsession is not healthy when this is how far it goes. You are the one to have made the connection.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)It's very sad for those families.
What's with the 'no true Scotsman' crap?
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)for its intolerance of innocent believers and the indoctrination of its followers to violence. Cool.
Bad Pooka Fey.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)But atheism isn't a belief system. Islam is
an explicitly misogynistic, homophobic, bigoted religion, right in its texts. Islam, and all the Abrahamic religions, are so full of condoning terrible things that's it's not surprising when believers carry it out in the name of their religion.
Atheism doesnt say anything one way or the other except that a person has a lack of belief in gods.
Many people don't understand atheism, and they draw false comparisons all the time.
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)who did almost nothing but evangelize me to become an atheist and abandon my faith. He usually became quite emotional about this. He was extremely invested in aligning my belief system with his own. He was the origin of many conflicts in our relationship, due to his campaign to convert me.
What was especially bizarre is that we were both secular humanists, except I believe in God. He couldn't accept this. He NEEDED to change me because he just KNEW that I was "delusional".
I, as a person of faith, never felt the slightest need to discuss my personal convictions with him.
My real-life experience tells me that atheism is something more than an "absence of faith". No hard feelings.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)I don't think you'll find a high correlation there.
On edit: It's also a good idea to avoid philosophy majors. 
--imm
Marr
(20,317 posts)I've occasionally met atheists like the one you describe. They were, so far as I could learn, raised in very religious environments and their atheism was a central aspect of their identity.
I'm an atheist myself, but I was raised in a non-religious household so it was never even an issue.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)You've known one person that claimed to be an atheist and feel you can conclude that atheism is more than an absence of faith?
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)the definition of atheism doesn't change because you dated an atheist that wanted to push his lack of belief on you.
His need to do so had nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with some other idea, whether it was his thoughts on delusions or whatever.
kcr
(15,318 posts)Who was nothing more than a control freak
whathehell
(29,069 posts)Unfortunately.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)MellowDem
(5,018 posts)and don't forget the Hadiths, and they contain some seriously bigoted, misogynsitc, hateful bullshit.
2banon
(7,321 posts)as well as non-belief in "gods". At least that's my take on Atheism in general. An expert on the subject might school me in that regard.
From general observations, (my own) - All of the "major" religions, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are everything you describe above to one degree or another. Their religious texts/doctrines are all bigoted, homophobic, and extremely misogynistic.
There are of course exceptions with regard to sub groups in each branch it seems, but essentially they're all one and the same, promising paradise to the flocks if they obey their masters, which of course is ordained in their text of choice vis a vis their own interpretations and all others are heretics, infidels worthy of slaughter in one form or another.
Very few seem to keep to themselves, in terms of their beliefs and their way of living, communing with nature, the universe. Those that do, I regard with considerable respect. Like the Amish for instance. I don't think Shakers exist anymore, but if they do I'd hold them in the same high regard.
All the others though, not so much.
btrflykng9
(287 posts)MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Literally. It's a strange word because few things are defined by what they aren't. But religion is so prevalent and powerful that it actually becomes a useful descriptor.
An atheist can positively believe there are no gods, or he could just not know. And it's certainly not a belief system.
A lot of the big religions condone terrible things in their texts, and a lot of religious moderates don't even believe half of it, but still identify with it, and thereby give cover and support for those who do follow the texts.
dilby
(2,273 posts)But at the end of the day, he was just full of hate.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Hate is hate, regardless of political party.
Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
pennylane100
(3,425 posts)Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)pennylane100
(3,425 posts)and about ten seconds to post it. It was low hanging fruit.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)FYI 
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)So if there is only one colon, the following number represents minutes?
5:15 is five minutes and fifteen seconds to me. Could be five hours, fifteen minutes to others.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Shit, so is my phone it shows 12:54 PM
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)against people shooting rockets into their country are doing it because they're not Jewish? Seriously?
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)1) Have you read the Bible?
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)Have you read the Bible?
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Jews do not kill non-Jews for the offense of not being Jewish. There is no equivalent of apostate laws as there are in Muslim doctrine. Apostate laws don't exist in Jewish doctrine.
Don't talk to me about wars please over territory, or wars with Ancient Rome or other historic territorial wars.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Deut 13:6-11?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)whatthehey
(3,660 posts)atheism is entirely defined by the absence of a belief, not a different specific belief.
Response to whatthehey (Reply #52)
Post removed
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)What is your evidence for that claim?
Bryant
outside
(70 posts)on DU this guys was a Christian terrorist with a bible in one hand and a gun in the other. Now he's just a hateful man who's upset about a parking spot who just happens to be an atheist on the weekends. Their was NO evidence the guy was a Christian last night but that did not stop the posts.
My heart goes out to the family of the great kids.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I am upset at times about the knee-jerk reaction to Christians committing crimes, but consistency requires one to hold oneself to the same standards one wants to hold others too.
Bryant
Response to outside (Reply #94)
muriel_volestrangler This message was self-deleted by its author.
frylock
(34,825 posts)you're positively giddy over this. unfukcingreal.
Gelliebeans
(5,043 posts)Was the word that came to mind (giddiness) about murder?
Tom Ripley
(4,945 posts)hatrack
(59,591 posts)Thanks for sharing, since we now know pretty much all we need to about you.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I stand corrected.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Even if he killed because he hated religion, which is by no means the clear motivation, from which atheist creed or dogma did he get this commandment?
Rex
(65,616 posts)THANK YOU for exposing your real feelings about atheism and how JOYFUL you are about 3 dead people at the hands of a psychopath. It lets others on DU know that you don't give a fuck about human life...just so your worldview is justified.
You are the poster child for a sociopath...congrats your parents would be so proud. 
inanna
(3,547 posts)whatthehey
(3,660 posts)el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)I guess that is how they get fooled when their pastor cherry picks passages out of the Bible etc. Or they spout nonsense, like Jews have never killed non-Jews in the name of their God.
Joshua 6:20–21
20 So the people shouted, and the trumpets were blown. As soon as the people heard the sound of the trumpet, the people shouted a great shout, and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they captured the city. 21 Then they devoted all in the city to destruction, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys, with the edge of the sword.
Gee...I wonder what it means when they say "Then they devoted all in the city to destruction, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys, with the edge of the sword."
So easy to contradict stupid comments like, "Jews never killed non-Jews in the name of the LORD. UM...YEAH THEY DID.
inanna
(3,547 posts)
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)the word does not entail anything other than a lack of belief in any gods.
phil89
(1,043 posts)Belief. Anything beyond that is not related to atheism. We need to get the basics correct here. There is no atheist dogma, rules or commandments telling us to kill people.
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)since the New Atheist movement has started, you guys can no longer claim neutrality. I empathize, and I am a huge Sam Harris fan. Basically, atheists accept secular humanism as a moral code for living.
There is no dogma, rules or commandments telling Christians to kill people. Nevertheless, Christianity is held to be responsible for every evil since the fall of Rome as a DIRECT RESULT of Jesus's teaching, which is basically "the golden rule": so the opposite of violence.
I respect logic and reason and basics more than the average DUer. If you can explain to me the logical link between Christianity and violence, I will retract my posts of my (admittedly immature) gleeful rejoicing that now you guys get to try and make sense out of this crazy society.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)"atheists accept secular humanism as a moral code for living."
Nope, can't make a generalization like that. Could be true for many, but there's no codification or creedal requirement for atheism so that pretty much blows that claim out of the water.
"There is no dogma, rules or commandments telling Christians to kill people."
Ever? Then explain the Crusades, lynching, etc. Christian history is loaded with dogma commanding them to kill. Unfortunately, too many church leaders took these words from Jesus to heart instead of his others, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."
Your pastor may not be telling you to kill people and your hyperbole of "Christianity is held to be responsible for every evil since the fall of Rome as a DIRECT RESULT of Jesus's teaching," aside, you cannot ignore the atrocities that have been committed over the years in Jesus' name. That's just intellectually dishonest.
Ghost in the Machine
(14,912 posts)espouse my views to anyone unless I'm asked. I don't try to "convert" people to my way of thinking, nor do I begrudge anyone for their beliefs.
This guy had bigger issues, IMHO.
Peace,
Ghost
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)of Jews committing genocide and God endorsing it.
Atheism isn't a belief system.
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)Last edited Wed Feb 11, 2015, 02:37 PM - Edit history (2)
‘Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” (1 Samuel 15:3)
. God kills half a million people. In 2 Chronicles 13:15-18, God helps the men of Judah kill 500,000 of their fellow Israelites.
God slaughters all Egyptian firstborn. In Exodus 12:29, God the baby-killer slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children and cattle because their king was stubborn.
God kills 14,000 people for complaining that God keeps killing them. In Numbers 16:41-49, the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them. So, God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them.
Genocide after genocide after genocide. In Joshua 6:20-21, God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing “men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.” In Deuteronomy 2:32-35, God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children. In Deuteronomy 3:3-7, God has the Israelites do the same to the people of Bashan. In Numbers 31: 7-18, the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they take as spoils of war. In 1 Samuel 15:1-9, God tells the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites – men, women, children, infants, and their cattle – for something the Amalekites’ ancestors had done 400 years earlier.
God kills 50,000 people for curiosity. In 1 Samuel 6:19, God kills 50,000 men for peeking into the ark of the covenant. (Newer cosmetic translations count only 70 deaths, but their text notes admit that the best and earliest manuscripts put the number at 50,070.)
3,000 Israelites killed for inventing a god. In Exodus 32, Moses has climbed Mount Sinai to get the Ten Commandments. The Israelites are bored, so they invent a golden calf god. Moses comes back and God commands him: “Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.” About 3,000 people died.
The Amorites destroyed by sword and by God’s rocks. In Joshua 10:10-11, God helps the Israelites slaughter the Amorites by sword, then finishes them off with rocks from the sky.
God burns two cities to death. In Genesis 19:24, God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah with fire from the sky. Then God kills Lot’s wife for looking back at her burning home.
God has 42 children mauled by bears. In 2 Kings 2:23-24, some kids tease the prophet Elisha, and God sends bears to dismember them. (Newer cosmetic translations say the bears “maul” the children, but the original Hebrew, baqa, means “to tear apart.”)
. A tribe slaughtered and their virgins raped for not showing up at roll call. In Judges 21:1-23, a tribe of Israelites misses roll call, so the other Israelites kill them all except for the virgins, which they take for themselves. Still not happy, they hide in vineyards and pounce on dancing women from Shiloh to take them for themselves.
3,000 crushed to death. In Judges 16:27-30, God gives Samson strength to bring down a building to crush 3,000 members of a rival tribe.
. A concubine raped and dismembered. In Judges 19:22-29, a mob demands to rape a godly master’s guest. The master offers his daughter and a concubine to them instead. They take the concubine and gang-rape her all night. The master finds her on his doorstep in the morning, cuts her into 12 pieces, and ships the pieces around the country.
Child sacrifice. In Judges 11:30-39, Jephthah burns his daughter alive as a sacrificial offering for God’s favor in killing the Ammonites.
God helps Samson kill 30 men because he lost a bet. In Judges 14:11-19, Samson loses a bet for 30 sets of clothes. The spirit of God comes upon him and he kills 30 men to steal their clothes and pay off the debt.
God demands you kill your wife and children for worshiping other gods. In Deuteronomy 13:6-10, God commands that you must kill your wife, children, brother, and friend if they worship other gods.
. God incinerates 51 men to make a point. In 2 Kings 1: 9-10, Elijah gets God to burn 51 men with fire from heaven to prove he is God.
God kills a man for not impregnating his brother’s widow. In Genesis 38: 9-10, God kills a man for refusing to impregnate his brother’s widow.
God threatens forced cannibalism. In Leviticus 26:27-29 and Jeremiah 19: 9, God threatens to punish the Israelites by making them eat their own children. -
See more at: http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=21#sthash.zdSTZ5ql.dpuf
I'm not an atheist but I did do an undergraduate second major in Biblical studies.
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)Don't flood me with bullshit. Apostasy laws don't exist in Jewish doctrine. Read Sam Harris, since you link to common sense atheism.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)
I dunno how to change that. "Oh, it wasn't murdering over faith, it was killing over "apostasy".
[uh-pos-tuh-see]
noun, plural apostasies.
1. a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.
In terms of the Bible, the term is 100% religious in nature.
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,501 posts)were just so giddy about shitting on atheists, that you came up with idiotic stretch of logic without thinking. It sounds like you've just been waiting for the "right moment" so you could go; "Haha you guys do it too.". Which mass murderer is revered by atheists again? Can you point out to us where in the Big Handbook of Atheists this is described? Most atheists, non-believers or what have you, keep our mouths shut. Because we just don't give a fuck. I don't know one single atheist who goes around picking fights with religious people. Which brings me to your boy Sam harris.
Harris is an arrogant douchebag who loves insulting people because they're not as enlightened as he is.
Three fucking people were murdered and the first thing you do is get all excited because now you can finally tell all those mean atheists to fuck off?
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Right there in the Torah - in the most inspired section of scripture in Judaism.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Joshua 6:20–21
20 So the people shouted, and the trumpets were blown. As soon as the people heard the sound of the trumpet, the people shouted a great shout, and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they captured the city. 21 Then they devoted all in the city to destruction, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys, with the edge of the sword.
Gee...I wonder what it means when they say "Then they devoted all in the city to destruction, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep, and donkeys, with the edge of the sword."
So easy to contradict stupid comments like, "Jews never killed non-Jews in the name of the LORD. UM...YEAH THEY DID.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)Now I am all for children being disciplined for disrespecting the elderly - but mauling and ripping apart the limbs of 42 children by she-bears? Wouldn't a spanking, being grounded for two weeks and made to do chores in old Mr. Elisha's yard been a little more fitting of a punishment?
God has 42 children mauled by bears. In 2 Kings 2:23-24, some kids tease the prophet Elisha, and God sends bears to dismember them. (Newer cosmetic translations say the bears “maul” the children, but the original Hebrew, baqa, means “to tear apart.”)
Guy Whitey Corngood
(26,501 posts)
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)THOUSANDS of years to a book written by humans to keep other humans in line to attack Jews?
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)link me to a story in the last 100 years that has Jews killing Gentiles because they weren't Jewish. Hell, make it 1000 years.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)"Some Jewish settlers in Hebron laud him as a hero and view his attack and subsequent death as an act of martyrdom."
People kill people for all kinds of irrational reasons, including religion, and there is no group immune from this human behavior.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)That animal was just a murderer who didn't want Muslims praying at the Cave of the Patriarchs (a place I can no longer visit because of him). It wasn't because they weren't Jewish. It's very simple really, Jews do not proselytize - therefore killing others for not being Jewish is not something they do. Even if you (or any gentile) wishes to convert, the story is you're supposed to get turned away 3 times - just to make sure you REALLY want to convert (Sex In The City did a terrific riff on this when Charlotte met her husband and wanted to convert). Does this mean Jews aren't murderers? Of course not, but they don't kill people for not being the right religion.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)ballabosh
(330 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I have no use for them whatsoever.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)It was to dispute the OP's claim. Heck, Abrahamic religions not only condone slavery and genocide, they require the worship of a god that kills off the whole world at one point except for Noah.
These religions are explicitly hateful, bigoted, and fucked up, and religious privilege makes it hard for people to realize this.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)when Jews use the fact others aren't Jewish to justify murder. THEN you'll have a point.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Jews are the chosen people and God commands them to slaughter others and enslave their women. I guess when God commands it, it's OK?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)you cannot come up with even one example of Jews actually killing people for not being Jewish. I wonder why that is.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)Baruch Goldstein? If you want a modern example.
The point is that the religion condones genocide, slavery, and bigotry with "chosen people". And in the past, it wasn't unheard of for tribes to do such things.
I don't think much of religions that worship a genocidal God.
ballabosh
(330 posts)Yaakov Teitel
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)"The bible isn't the word of God"
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)but atheism isn't a belief system.
All of the Abrahamic faiths are, all are explicitly bigoted in their texts and condone terrible things, and many people identify with these bigoted religions while expecting respect for identifying with them, because religious privilege.
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)(I should never post when it's late, so sorry)
I think I'm trying to be literal in saying that the Bible is no more the word of God than religions having faith when they act against it. The bible is not a book of faith, it's a book of rules, followed by an updated testament of Jesus parables. Some is carefully crafted scripture, leaving out entire contributors, due to their gospel.
Religion sure has privilege, but if one were an atheist, I think you'd eventually find that said atheist feels the a sort of faith without a sky being at the head of it.
Since it's so taboo to get into much GD discussion about atheism, I believe an entire unfolding discussion of who we are and why we exist would point to a qualitative methodology in the universe. To not pray every so often to a sky being and feel confident in that requires another kind of faith.
Maybe I should just go to bed.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)They feel wonder and awe. They aren't any more sure than anyone else. On the question of God specifically though, while they aren't sure, they give it about as much time or credence as any number of infinite claims with evidence that aren't testable.
It's possible to be an atheist and not know, most are that I know of. Most religious people I know are agnostics as well.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)should be a new category in the Olympics.
Just enjoying the performance in this thread...
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Hoseah 13:16 is as good a start as any.
Of course, I don't believe in the bible or god, but that doesn't mean there wasn't a lot of religiously motivated killing in the Bronze Age.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)whatthehey
(3,660 posts)There is nothing in atheism that pretends to have a moral or ethical normative effect. Unlike most religions, there is no moral code or expectations laid upon those who claim atheism as a position on religious belief.
It's very easy then to say "sure seems like an atheist; sure seems like a rampaging murderous wackjob" with no implied guilt by association or need to "defend" atheism, which after all is not a belief in a positive claim but the absence of belief in a range of positive claims. There is no "cause" for which atheists are, even hypothetically, expected to take up arms. There's nothing there to fight for frankly.
Now it's very possible this chap hated religious folk in general, or maybe Muslims in particular, as well as resenting parking practices. This too requires no defense from fellow nonbelievers because there is no shared atheist "creed" that tells him to do this to which we all are held in obedience. He's a very real atheist, and I'd be both surprised and disappointed to see the usual no true Scotsmanisms come from nonbelievers that are immediate reactions from many theists. An atheist killer is just a killer who is an atheist, and there are damn few sane atheists who ever claimed that such people have not existed for many centuries and will not continue for many more. There is no basis, or incentive, to say the killing part made him not a "real" atheist, because atheism is not a moral code.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Almost compels one to believe that hate knows no one political, religious, philosophical or financial philosophy, and that we must look to the individual rather than the demographic to find cause and reason.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Most murderers in the US are Christian, but very few murder motivated by Xianity. Some however do, such as Roeder or Rudolph or Shelton.
It's possible this chap killed for his hatred of religious folks, although why he needed 46 years in the South to come across religious folk is a bit of a puzzler. Maybe he hated Muslims in particular. We'll likely get more inferential data soon. But hatred of religion is not enjoined by any dogma or shared creed of atheists, for the simple fact that atheists have none.
Sure I'd be willing to go out on a very safe limb and say it's more likely for atheists to have a universal hatred for ALL religions than it is for believers, who instead are far more likely to have specific hatred for INDIVIDUAL religions instead. It's just not a component of an atheist belief system because there is no atheist belief system.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"It's just not a component of an atheist belief system because..."
I made no premise indicating his actions were predicated on a component of his belief-systems; quite the contrary, in fact.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)as a motivator. Some people DO kill for causes though.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I didn't deny outside influences-- merely indicated that looking toward the individual may be necessary.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)The first half, "Almost compels one to believe that hate knows no one {...} philosophy" implies that's what you believe. The "almost" is part of the standard phrase "almost makes one think...", very commonly alludes to what the speaker believes (I never see it used otherwise, though I suppose it could be). Taking that into account, the first half implies that you believe that hate is universal trait that is not related to a single philosophy, but rather none at all.
The second half of the sentence is also rather clear. You state that "we must look to the individual rather (emphasis mine) than the demographic". This sets up an "either-or" contrast, which implies that it must be one or another, and cannot be both. There's not too much room there for a different interpretation.
You may very well have meant to say that looking towards the individual may be necessary. However, what you wrote implied something rather different and more absolute.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Yup, he was an atheist. I'm an atheist. However being an atheist doesn't require one follow or adopt beliefs found in any particular book. Certainly not one that actually does contain orders to kill people who don't share your beliefs that one needs to come up with a rationalization in order to disregard it or explain it away.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Saucepan of Kerbango
(48 posts)ChosenUnWisely
(588 posts)Making up words in a lame attempt at some type of equivalence?
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)The vast majority of atheists have no desire to get into anybody's face over their religion. Militant (or "fundie) atheists always get into other people's face over religion.
ChosenUnWisely
(588 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)And they do exist.
Nasty people. They need to find a different hobby.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)I am an anti-theist. I think religion does and has done large amounts of harm to free-thinking individuals, the advancement of morality and science, and minority communities. That belief does not imply that I, or other anti-theists, are militant. I would like to see the eventual disappearance of religion from the world; I would also like to see the disappearance of racism, misogyny, etc., from the world. Neither has any bearing on how I think that should be accomplished.
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)A full pantheon of demigods of unbelief -- British scientists and full-time atheism rabble-rouser Richard Dawkins was the headliner -- kept a crowd of all ages on their feet for more than six hours (and counting -- I left before the band Bad Religion was set to play).
~ snip ~
But when Dawkins got to the part where he calls on the crowd not only to challenge religious people but to "ridicule and show contempt" for their doctrines and sacraments, including the Eucharist which Catholics believe becomes the body of Christ during Mass.
~ snip ~
ChosenUnWisely
(588 posts)Loots like we are going to see a whole bunch of the faithful spewing false equivalencies for the next few weeks.
OMG the faithful are now being persecuted by militant atheists! ARGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH
Religious silliness is not limited to the GOP, it is alive and well here.
Throd
(7,208 posts)I have been an atheist my entire life, but I try not to be a dick about it.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)What is funny is that there are plenty of religious leaders who actually have advocated "murdering the bastards".
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)ChosenUnWisely
(588 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"Depends on how one defines RWer...."
Defined as an idiot who wants to pin medals on the chest of someone who kills others simply for believing differently.
Response to LanternWaste (Reply #171)
Post removed
Saucepan of Kerbango
(48 posts)And I don't know why this is a contentious point.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)
Find any group of any size and there will always be assholes.
Saucepan of Kerbango
(48 posts)agreed.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)By 'militant's very definition, it's as close to being a fundie as you can get.
http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/militant
Saucepan of Kerbango
(48 posts)..speaking for myself, the analog would be better as an Evangelical Atheist, or Evangelical anything. Anyone overly getting in my face telling me that their way is better.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)It really makes no sense when describing the noun 'atheist.'
"Fundamentalism is a movement to recapture an ideological "purity" within a religion, that supposedly has been lost by mainstream adherents of the religion at large. Fundamentalists often assert the primacy of their own idiosyncratic interpretation of religious texts over centuries of acquired knowledge and practice."
Considering atheism is neither a religion, nor does it have any texts requiring interpretation, your phrase is meaningless.
I also think the use of the word 'militant' is over-used and erroneously at that.
If you want to describe rude atheists who assert opinions you think they should keep to themselves, then just call them assholes. Using modifiers gives the impression that there is some sort of orthodox way of thinking or being for atheists. And there most definitely is not.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)Bingo. Bookmarking this thread for this post, thanks.
Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)If the rumors about his Facebook "Likes" page is true, he viewed himself as a Liberal
The Facebook account has been since been taken offline and I'll want to see screenshots or reports from reliable sources first, but if the rumors are true this wasn't a Fox watching right wing nut job.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)n/t
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I think there were other motivrs here.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)Good, we agree on something.
Now, how about extending that benefit of the doubt to Muslims....
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)would now extend to Muslims - but I seriously doubt it.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)and I'm not seeing evidence that it's a problem.
Let's parse some paraphrased positions:
1) Muslims are committing more and worse acts of terrorism in the world today than any other religious group.
2) Nations run by Islamist factions are more brutal and oppressive than those who are not
3) You can printy nasty cartoons about Jesus or Buddha or Vishnu and not be machine gunned to death - but Mohammed?
I've seen many variants of all 3 here. None of them however, even implicitly, extends these negative actions as representative of all Muslims, even thugh all are often taken that way.
1) Men commit way more and worse murders than women
2) Nations run by white people have started more and worse wars than those run by other races
3) You can commit acts of terrorism in plenty of countries without getting a barely-related nation invaded and occupied. But do it in America?
All are exactly grammatically and logically analogous but none say all men murder, all white people start wars or all Americans invade other countries when attacked. Why do the first 3 somehow reflect on all Muslims?
Matrosov
(1,098 posts)To extend the benefit of the doubt to Muslims, considering right now nobody is better at killing people in the name of religion than Muslims.
Of course, historically speaking, Christians rank right up there as well and probably even surpass Muslims, so Christians don't necessarily get a free pass either.
On the other hand, atheists are generally not very good at killing people over religion.
I'll admit, I don't see Islamophobia the same way as sexism, homophobia, or racism. That's because the latter three are completely ignorant, when you consider that women, homosexuals, and minorities, are not inherently dangerous to society, even if Christian right-wingers and their Muslim counterparts would like us to believe otherwise.
Yet religion is inherently dangerous to society. It is even right there in their holy books, black on white, that God commands the believers to slay the non-believers. Religion has been among the main reasons why women, homosexuals, and minorities have been treated so poorly in the first place (e.g. the genocide of Native Americans and the slave trade were often justified with Christianity).
uponit7771
(90,348 posts)...saying other than what you see on TV and other biased sources?
Anyone who has spent a second on DU understands how biased US news is
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)and less war than the West. It's just how they are portrayed in the media and also our prejudices that make it look like they are particularly violent.
By default, when Muslims kill it is due to religion, but when others kill, they had their reasons. So Muslims are worse since they kill due to religion. That is rather unfair.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)not to get on our high horse about atheists too, for merely expressing outrage at the shooter.
It would be just about as relevant as the last time he did it, to Christians about the ISIS atrocities... not relevant at all.
Of course I mean to include along with Obama, the whole bandwagon of people here and elsewhere who did the same thing.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)I don't see anything there to object to. so I'm wondering what you find offensive.
Certainly "I don't deny you your right to believe whatever you'd like" cannot be squared with murdering people for their beliefs.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)As I feared, atheism is becoming more than simple rejection of belief.
The atheist industry is turning it into a militant, organized group. It makes atheists like me sick to see us becoming the thing we rejected in the first place.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)was out of a desire to further Atheism. I think we should wait until we hear all the facts before making a judgement call, but it's certainly possible that this was more about a parking spot than about making a statement about Atheism.
Bryant
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Atheists have seen GLBT make great strides in social acceptance and civil rights through organizing, that leads them to want to organize also in order to derive the same benefits of social acceptance and civil rights.
In our society the unorganized are voiceless and powerless and are pushed around by the organized who have both voice and power.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)It's not just our society. It's civilization period, no matter where you go. That is the pinnacle of organization. If you don't organize, you die out in one form or another. Who's running the world today for the sake of argument, nomadic tribes, or organized nations?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Please name the atheists in the "atheist industry" who have advocated murdering people for being religious.
Would you like a list of theists in the "theist industry" who have advocated murdering people for being irreligious?
Happy to provide some names if the googler is broken for you.
here's one:
Imam of a local mosque incited murder of Christian couple, says police
http://tribune.com.pk/story/786093/police-arrest-44-suspects-file-cases-against-468-others-for-murder-of-christian-couple/
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)Throd
(7,208 posts)
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)I can name a few religious books that do just that. do you wish we atheists just slink back to the shadows and continue to get discriminated against and shat upon?
Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)there is an atheist industry turning into a military, organized group? Has some atheist group claimed him and I didn't get the memo?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I offer my most humble apology to anyone affected by my now stricken post.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)During the great DU Charlie, and continuing, ISIS and Fundie christian wars, there were several posts that "bordered" on that very fb post. And the posts were posted by members that identify as atheist(s). And it is not difficult to match screen names from Charlie and ISIS and fundie Christian posts to screen names in the group.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Some here are so quick to point the finger they forget which way to point it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I posted something stupid. I apologized and struck through the post. Let's just leave it at that. Shall we?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)opiate69
(10,129 posts)If this is the same sort of subject that got his original account tombstoned?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024991522#post48
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)But that wasn't what you actually meant to say, was it?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)but I have been told that that was a sh!tty comment so ...
Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)Please tell me you are not suggesting what I think you're suggesting. Beyond the pale if so!
onager
(9,356 posts)But you can put together a little list of us if you like, J. Edgar.
Also, I think you meant "wander over." What I'm wondering over is your post. And not just because it's so badly written.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)No I think you meant that.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)let it go!
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)struck the offending comment ... that's what the lines through the words means.
melman
(7,681 posts)What a joke.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)When you read text with lines through it, what does that mean to you?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I have to say, that was a remarkably vile and disappointing insinuation.
I'm sorry you feel that way.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)mr blur
(7,753 posts)and as for your suggestion that someone from one of our groups of believers could be responsible for this? Appalling.
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)I am sorry that you feel some of us are so evil that we would kill innocent people. I have always liked reading your posts, but this crossed a line. We are not the devil.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I went back and edited the stupid post to strike the comment and I apologized.
I don't know what more I can do?
Curmudgeoness
(18,219 posts)is for you to self-delete the post. I would not have seen what you had said if you had just self-deleted. I wish I would not have seen it.
Your leaving that there so people can still see what was posted appears to be a statement in itself, and it doesn't look good.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)It goes to the core of my integrity.
I said the stupid ... I own the stupid ... I use the standard editing technique of striking the stupid and follow up with an apology for the stupid.
This way I can never do what I have seen a number of times ... self-delete, then deny that the stupid was said along with a "Post a link to me saying {the stupid}" challenge.
It
EvolveOrConvolve
(6,452 posts)That you mistake honest outspokenness with murderous rage says more about you than it does about anyone in the "un-named" group. At one time I had a lot of respect for you, but it's gone, and an apology isn't going to un-ring that bell because you left the comment there for everyone to see.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)murder would so much as decrease. People make choices to hurt others. That is the only variable that matters and it is a variable others cannot control.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Getting our rates down to UK levels. Couldn't hurt.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)The data that shows bans to be ineffective? The data that shows gun crime declining over more than 2 decades while ownership increased in the same time period?
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)and this guy was a violent lunatic.
Sid
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)I know atheists and anti-theists, and they have never shot anyone.
Therefore, he is a fake anti-theist.
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)Are you saying he isn't what he doesn't believe so therefore he can't not be what he thinks he isn't?
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)He either believes a deity does not exist, or he doesn't believe a deity exists. But that is not enough.
For example, most Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, etc. are good, honorable, peaceful people. By the commonly accepted standard, violent extremists are not true Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, etc.
Why wouldn't the same extend to atheists? Most atheists are good, honorable, peaceful people. This man is a murderer, so therefore, he is not an atheist.
Pacifist Patriot
(24,653 posts)I have my doubts because every atheist I have discussed this story with has made a point of not engaging in the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
Why wouldn't that extend to atheists? Because there is no atheist scripture, creed, or dogma that justifies murder or compels atheists to either eradicate religion in general or theists specifically by violent means. Therefore, he cannot represent atheism in his actions. The man is heinous. He's an atheist. But whatever his motives, a lack of belief in God (and that's all that atheism is) does not obligate or inspire a person to murder.
Atheists are people period. Some are good, honorable, and peaceful and some are not. I can't think of any atheists who would claim otherwise. Certainly none at DU have made that claim.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)What you cannot demonstrate is that there are atheist or anti-theist leaders calling for the killing of theists, or even that this person killed acting on his anti-theist beliefs.
Would you like to compare how that differs from, say the recent attack in Paris?
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Doesn't mean this crime has anything to do with atheism. We don't really know why, at this point.
I get why people are doing this. It's the false equivalence angle.
Because Muslims in general are always held to account (in the media, in some minds at least) when some commit terrorist acts, so turnabout must be fair play?
Some deranged gun nut (and I think this angle is WAY more important than the atheism angle anyway) does this and all of a sudden, all atheists are suspect. Well, we always were. In that we have things in common with minority religions.
How about we not judge all adherents of a creed/lack of creed based on the actions of one or a few? I know that is what you are arguing in the last paragraph.
I do believe personally that religion is a force for evil, not good and the world would be better off without it. I don't believe in achieving that goal by shooting people, if that's in fact what he was going for here.
struggle4progress
(118,320 posts)Man had gun. Man spent lots of time posting about how he wanted religion to go away and how he regarded himself as a conscientious objector to ignorant dangerous and baseless superstitions that keep killing people. Man then pointlessly killed three Muslim neighbors.
These facts suggest a fearful and unhappy man, who abstractly attributed his fear and unhappiness to other people's "dangerous and baseless superstitions" and who concretely projected his own fear and unhappiness onto several people he didn't actually know, turning them into scapegoats for his personal misery; and having convinced himself that their ignorance was killing people, he then killed them.
Excessive reliance on online interaction can isolate people; and human isolation is not a good thing: it can lead to obsessive and deranged thinking. Fear causes erratic and unpredictable behavior; and obsessive fearful people with guns in their hands can be a major threat.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,342 posts)"several people he didn't actually know" - it looks like he did know them; he lived next door, and one of them said they had a neighbour who "hates us for what we are and how we look", and her father said he "had picked on my daughter and her husband a couple of times before, and he talked with them with his gun in his belt". http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026211921
We don't know he was 'isolated'; we do know he was married.
Since you posted, his wife has spoken: http://mashable.com/2015/02/11/chapel-hill-shooters-wife/
Their attorney is going with anger over the parking as the motivation. It seems to me he may have seen them as 'all alike', which might explain why he murdered all of them.
struggle4progress
(118,320 posts)for a "parking dispute" -- that probably involves some brooding and premeditation, and since most people don't travel well with head wounds, it almost certainly requires entry into their apartment
It's very common for people to know little or nothing about their neighbors, even their next-door neighbors, but murderous rage against someone, who you really don't know, is not the usual murder scenario in civil society: it strongly suggests a lack of satisfactory socialization and the replacement of real relationships by aggrieved fantasies
Of course, it is possible to hate people one really doesn't know, and it is even possible to get quite good at that if one practices regularly. And we do know the alleged shooter did practice thinking about people who didn't share his views about religion as not only ignorant but also responsible for murder.
His wife's statement "I can say that it is my absolute belief that this incident had nothing to do with religion or the victim’s faith, but in fact was related to long-standing parking disputes my husband had with various neighbors regardless of their race, religion or creed” doesn't really shed much light either: "Yes, he killed three people in their home, but really! he's not a bigot! This was only about the parking!" merely suggests his wife is not thinking at her best right now
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Guess not.
Even so called "clear headed, non fantasy believing" atheists can be stone cold killer terrorists too!
Will this stop the constant drumbeat of attacks against leftist democratic Christians here on DU?
Sadly, I doubt it.
Exhibit A
(318 posts)I've been assured that religion causes all problems in the world! Maybe this was a false flag intended to make atheists look bad???
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)I'll wait,
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)I saw some reference to him doing some work for the local homeless, which doesn't match well with shooting up people over a parking space. Assuming that his basic attitudes led to this may not be accurate.
It's a shocking thing - almost beyond shocking. But he turned himself in, so I don't know what to think.
amandabeech
(9,893 posts)I wonder if he'll get a psych evaluation. I don't know what to think, either.
