Little League cheating call raises allegations of racism

[philosslayer]

Supporters of a Chicago Little League team that had its national title revoked over allegations of cheating accused the Little League organization Wednesday of racism.

At an afternoon press conference, the Rev. Jesse Jackson asked, "Is this about boundaries or race?"

"This decision's untimely and inappropriate at this time," Jackson told reporters. "It should not take six months after a team has played a championship game to determine eligibility to play the game in the first place."

"It is amazing to me that whenever African-Americans exceed the expectations that there is always going to be fault," Green said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jesse-jackson-race-factor-chicago-little-league-cheating-call/

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

1. Oh, boo hoo

So, there is a statute of limitations on cheating? "If we can get away with it for 2 months, we didn't really cheat?"

They actively recruited players to strengthen the team. They cheated.

Because adults cheated, the kids got national exposure. It will have to be enough for the players.

Jackson is barking up the wrong tree this time.

[brush]

2. It's kind of insensitive though . . .

If this is the only time this has ever been done, which I doubt, call a press conference and embarrass the kids nationally in January or March, but they wait until Black History Month to do this?

[brush]

18. Talk about insensitive

Last edited Thu Feb 12, 2015, 12:19 PM - Edit history (1)

Black History Month means something to black people.

All I'm saying is do this anytime other time than this month.

What is that going hurt?

Is your empathy gene missing or something?

And concerning this story, I'm watching ESPN right now and they're talking about this. Seems the Little League actually investigated this twice and found no violation but a reporter, prompted by one of the teams beaten badly by the Jackie Robinson team, continued on the story and found that a couple of players were from outside the boundary.

Steven A. Smith and Skip Bayless are therefore calling for all the teams in the Little League playoffs be as thoroughly investigated as the African American team was.

That sounds fair. Let's see if there were others that did the same thing. Don't just go after the African American team.

[kcr]

24. There are calls to investigate other teams?

Oh, now it makes sense. That explains the aggressive campaign to paint them as race card playing sore losers.

[CANDO]

174. Just found out another team had its wins pulled.

The Georgia state championship team from last summer was stripped of it wins.http://www.cbs46.com/story/26195315/peachtree-city-little-league-team-stripped-of-state-championship
And for a rules infraction of having more than 8 players of 12 yrs old. They had ten 12 yr old players, a violation discovered after the fact which resulted in having their state championship nullified. Photo of the team at link. Coaches are white as well as all but 2 of the players. Where's Jessie Jackson? It's quite obviously racism at play here also....what with 2 minority players on the team!

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

11. huh?

What has "black history month" got to do with this?

The whole thing is a travesty. This team won because of cheating. They likely would not have made it to the world series without cheating. The kids are crushed, but they've had the entire experience, which is more than most kids ever get.

[adigal]

31. True...we only celebrate when NFL teams cheat and win Super Bowls

When kids do it, we are all atwitter.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

3. Protest noted -- but did the team actually cheat?

[GummyBearz]

8. Well

After an investigation, little league took away their title for actually cheating. This was one of two "feel good" teams of the last little league world series. They got attention from everyone, all the way up to Obama. Little league loved them as the team brought all kinds of good press along with them... Until it was proven they cheated.


I'm SURE a lot of other little league teams also recruit from outside their district. But those teams didn't win the US title over a non-cheating team.

[ProfessorGAC]

36. So?

Did you hear that sanctimonious buffoon that runs the LLI? If you had, you might question just how capable they are at investigating.

[kcr]

9. The question is do other teams cheat but get away with it.

If that's the case, then charges of racism could be valid.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

10. Has that been shown? Have specific allegations even been brought?

[HereSince1628]

14. There were allegations Taiwan cheated on ages of players

I don't think they were deemed true.

Taiwan had a huge run of victories in international play and that caused jealousy and suspicion.

[KamaAina]

65. A Philippine team was disqualfied over that in 1992

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Little_League_World_Series

There had been some suspicions about the Zamboanaga City team soon after it arrived in Williamsport. Several committee members didn't think the manager and coach seemed "typical." However, nothing more came of it after assurances were given that the manager and coach were from the same league as the players and had coached in that league during the regular season. A few days after Zamboanga City's triumphant victory, however, journalist Al Mendoza of the Philippine Daily Inquirer began publishing stories suggesting that some players were ineligible. He'd received letters from several neighbors and relatives claiming that several players were too old for Little League. Local administrator Armando Andaya was faxed four questions from Little League president Creighton Hale, regarding player ages, birth certificates, residence, and a specific question regarding winning championship game pitcher Ian Tolentino's participation in a tournament in 1990 (possibly with the view of suggesting this would have made him over-age). Andaya admitted to violating rules on district representation - eight players were from outside the Zamboanga City area, some as far away as Luzon, and unable to speak Chabacano, the language most commonly spoken in Zamboanga. Andaya claimed that the eight players replaced, for various reasons, were unable to go to China for the Far East series and that the out-of-district substitutes were only used to make up numbers rather than to give the team an extra edge over their opponents. He also admitted that the team's original coach had been replaced with someone from Manila.

Little League Baseball stripped Zamboanga City of its title. Under Little League rules at the time, when a team was found to have used an ineligible player, it forfeited only its most recent game (otherwise they would have to put the entire tournament on hold while the teams that lost to the illegal team were put back into the tournament). Since the revelation was made after the championship game, that game was declared a 6-0 forfeit victory by Long Beach, which was awarded the championship. The exposed players and parents remained defiant, and accused Little League Baseball of denying them due process.

Note that this process took days, not months.

[kcr]

21. I have no idea.

But this is sports, and it's sports involving children, so the idea isn't far fetched. So, if this is the case, then it is relevant. If an organization normally lets certain rules slide until an all AA team comes along, then they should be called on that.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

22. You're going to accuse people of racism based on

a failure to investigate things that haven't even been alleged?

[kcr]

25. What?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

26. What?

Well then, why jump to the conclusion the allegations of racism are bullshit?

But this is sports, and it's sports involving children, so the idea isn't far fetched.

indeed

[kcr]

27. So, what is so hard to understand about those sentences?

I apologize if English is your second language.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

28. It's not hard to understand you're accusing people of cheating with ZERO basis in evidence.

And then use those unfounded accusations to suggest the team in the OP is being treated unevenly because of racism.

[kcr]

30. Alrighty then

I'll put you down for No such thing as racism, all white people are pure and only ever have good intentions. That's the only explanation I can think of for your total warped interpretations of things I've posted.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

32. Bless your heart.

You can't defend your allegations that others are cheating so you have to accuse the other person of denying racism.

[kcr]

33. Do you see allegations everywhere you look?

Are you suspicious of everyone's motives or something? I'm trying to look real hard at what I wrote to see how it looks like allegations. Squinting real hard. Trying to see if maybe I could clarify it somehow, but not seeing it. Hmmm.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

43. Do you see racism everywhere you look?

Are you suspicious of everyone's racial motives or something?

I'm trying to look real hard at what I wrote to see how it looks like allegations.

why jump to the conclusion the allegations of racism are bullshit?

Allow me to say, unequivocally and categorically -- there is currently no evidence of cheating being alleged against other teams nor is there any basis to think the league is deliberately overlooking the, still un-alleged, cheating.

That would mean that any allegations of racism -- or any other motive -- are bullshit.

Perhaps in all your squinting you can see your way clear to offer a plausible explanation for alleging cheating -- or the overlooking of cheating -- or racism.

[kcr]

49. Your logic is a tad flawed, there

Have you ever heard of circular reasoning? A: There is no evidence of a crime! B: Well, should't we investigate to see if there is any evidence? A: No! Because there's no evidence of the crime!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

57. You misstate supposition A.

It's not that there isn't evidence of a crime, there isn't even an allegation. No suspicious activity. Nothing. The claim is baseless, as in, not having a base.

Do you or anyone have a reason to start an investigation or do you believe in just investigating people without cause?

[kcr]

64. No, that's your supposition

I don't think racism is out of the question. Note that is not an accusation. I simply don't think it's a bad idea to actually think about whether this claim is valid because it could be. It isn't that far fectched on a number of levels. I'm also not surprised to get such a strong reaction, either. Not jumping on the bandwagon to simply dismiss a charge of racism usually does. Never fails to get a harsh reaction. Love your outrage thread, btw.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

68. "It isn't that far fectched on a number of levels."

Without a basis in evidence its solely to product of your imagination.

I don't think racism is out of the question.

Based on what, exactly?

[kcr]

70. Soleley a product of my imagination because?

What? Racism doesn't exist? It's just not possible? So, the thought should never be entertained?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

79. "Racism doesn't exist?"

You're attempting to apply a general statement (one I never made) to a particular event.

Rape exists, in sports even. According to your argument that would serve as grounds for investigating the now-disqualified team for allegations of rape.

[kcr]

82. You are implying that statement by your reaction to the claim of racism

It can't even be a question of whether or not this is racism. That effectively denies it exists.

Why would it be grounds for an investigation of rape according to my argument? No one has claimed rape. But, by your logic few rape claims would ever be investigated. There's no evidence a rape occurred! Claim is bogus! No investigation!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

84. "You are implying that statement by your reaction to the claim of racism"

I'm implying no such thing.

Why would it be grounds for an investigation of rape according to my argument? No one has claimed rape.

No one has claimed cheating or uninvestigated cheating either -- which is exactly what I and the others have been saying this entire time.

[kcr]

85. What do you mean, no one has claimed uninvestigated cheating?

What do you think the basis of the claim is?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

86. Who cheated when and how?

[kcr]

88. So, I'm right. No evidence, no investigation.

Therefore they can't claim racism, and anyone who thinks they're right to question what's going on is OUTRAGE. Why can't people learn to just keep their heads down anymore? What is this world coming to?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

93. Who are you investigating for what?

[kcr]

96. I'm not investigating anyone

But I'm also not the one running around squawking about lack of evidence the minute someone dared to suggest there might be something to the claim of racism.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

99. Who should be investigated? What should they be investigated for?

Generally an investigation -- unlike trumped-up accusations -- require a basis in fact. Person/Group A is accused of committing Act X. If an investigation is warranted this is the minimum required to even begin.

[kcr]

100. That's a mighty high bar for opinions on a message board, but okay

I think the fact that only three teams in 68 years have lost their titles, none of them being predominantly white teams from affluent towns , combined with the fact that LL officials knew about the boundary issues before the end of the season is a pretty good jumping off point to warrant looking into. I found all this out since my first post on this thread. I didn't even know all this and my first instinct wasn't to throw up the race card accusation. I really don't get it.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

105. Of the remaining 65 teams to win the title which ones cheated and how?

[kcr]

107. Ha ha! This is like a merry go round

I'm not sure why I'm supposed to even be contemplating that, though? I'm getting confused on this merry go round. Maybe I should clear my head in the OUTRAGE THREAD! YEAH!!!!

[Nuclear Unicorn]

108. It's not a Merry-Go-Round it's a simple question: Who cheated when and how?

Nothing in that statement precludes an investigation. In fact, it opens the door to an investigation.

It's a straight, simple question. Any deviation would be solely your own.

[kcr]

168. It opens the door to an investigation. Exactly.

Well how is one supposed to find that out? If I don't have magical powers of ESP, then I'm wrong and you're right, and the claims being made in the OP are BS? I'm not seeing how that works.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

170. People were able to figure out the team in the OP was cheating. No ESP needed.

[GGJohn]

121. Srsly?

You're suggesting that the evidence is that there's no evidence? Or even an allegation?
Pls tell me that's not your supposition for investigating whether or not racism was a motivating factor for disqualifying the Chicago LL team.

[kcr]

167. Uh, no.

I'm saying just merely proclaiming there is no evidence doesn't make it so. NU's contention that there is no evidence is not a basis in fact. It is a classic internet jerk of the knee, especially common when a claim of racism is made. When I point this out, all she does is repeatedly ask for evidence. Round and round and round. I can't wave a magic wand and make evidence appear on the internet, so ha ha! She wins, no racism! Except reality doesn't work that way.

[LittleBlue]

47. No, you pull this crap so often on this forum

Someone confronts you on massive flaw in your argument, and you pretend not to understand.

He's got you on this one.

[kcr]

50. Feel free to show me where I'm wrong n/t

[LittleBlue]

58. Pretty simple

You're defending cheating by baselessly alleging that others cheat. He's pointing out that an allegation has to be made before an investigation can begin, which defeats your argument.

You've chosen the cowardly way out by pretending not to understand, then accusing him of being a poor English speaker, and then baselessly accusing him of blindness to racism. I understood what he's saying just fine. Stop playing childish games, no one with a shred of intelligence is fooled.

[kcr]

66. I'm defending cheating?

Huh. And alleging that others cheat, too. Wow. I sure am an awful person. And all because I merely want to entertain the thought that those who think there is some racial motivation might not be wrong.

There's a cute thread about outrage you might be interested in.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

59. "He's got you on this one."

"She" actually. I'm not offended, just sayin'.

[LittleBlue]

62. Didn't know!

I'll stop calling you a man now

[Nuclear Unicorn]

69. No worries.

[FBaggins]

120. You shouldn't forgive so fast!

We could speculate that kcr's behavior on the thread is due to gender bias!

Now... we don't know kcr's gender... or whether kcr harbors such a bias toward females... but until those things are documented to the internet's satisfaction, it's entirely reasonable to make such claims!

[X_Digger]

191. ...

LOL!

[ScreamingMeemie]

112. Specific allegations with regard to the team who filed the complaint

have been brought...

http://abc7chicago.com/sports/chicago-mom-claims-suburban-little-league-team-forged-residency/514122/


the other interesting thing is, a friend of mine worked with the coach of the Evergreen Park team a few years ago in management for a well-known retailer. Let's just say he's less than "clean" when it comes to ethics.

[1StrongBlackMan]

151. Shouldn't the question be ...

were other teams investigated.

I would suspect, once the kid established residency at the start of the season ... that is the end of it; but, 2 league "investigations" and 1 investigation by a journalist seems ... unusual.

[GGJohn]

152. Were cheating allegations made against other teams?

If not, then why would there be investigations?

[1StrongBlackMan]

159. Probably not ...

I wonder why LAST year's team produced allegations of cheat (and multiple investigations); whereas, the previous years produced no such allegations (and certainly not multiple investigations).

[ScreamingMeemie]

161. There were. Against the team that made this allegation.

See my post two up from this one.

[Ace Rothstein]

154. It wasn't necessarily a residency issue.

JRW secretly redrew their boundaries in 2014 which overlapped a number of other leagues in the area, to take the best players from these other leagues. The district president filed the changes with the national organization without approval from the other leagues, which is required. The national organization finally spoke with the other leagues sometime in the last week which is what led to them stripping the title.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

12. Disgruntled losers will always be looking for cheaters

And, in a manner of speaking, that's a good thing. It helps to keep the game honest. Supporters of local teams who lose to these powerhouse teams are investigating the players regardless of skin color. Of that you can be sure.

[questionseverything]

37. if they wanted to build a "superteam"

they should of played travel baseball...where those restrictions do not apply....i am guessing they didn't because they could not of competed successfully there

i am also bothered by all the money and resources this team has compared to REAL neighborhood teams.....that seems like an unfair advantage also

thank you for sticking up for baseball

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

42. I grew up on the baseball field :)

My dad coached for years, and my siblings and I all played baseball or softball. I adore the game!

[questionseverything]

51. baseball is the funnest game in the world!!!

we played softball (even my old aunts and uncles ) at my wedding reception

my oldest grandson played travelball , he was a big kids, power hitter so he ALWAYS had to have his birth certificate with him at tourneys because he was always getting challenged....that seems to be something peops on this board do not realize,getting challenged is part of the game

that they got by with it so long tells me it was a coordinated effort

sad when even children's sports are corrupt

[1StrongBlackMan]

158. Agreed; but let's examine that a bit ...

Every year, there is one winner and, that winning team is likely a super-team. And that super-team likely produced plenty of disgruntled losers. Every year, except last year, a "white" team was the winner; yet, no one was so disgruntled as to push for multiple investigations.

Perhaps, something about last year's super-team resulted in EXTRA disgruntlement.

If I do bad and you suspect/want to believe me as doing bad and look for the bad ... you are likely to find my bad. If I do bad and you don't care whether enough to look into whether I did bad or not ... you are likely to not find that I did bad.

[Ace Rothstein]

163. It was local leagues in the Chicago area that pushed the investigation.

JRW intruded into their league boundaries to build their team.

[Yupster]

204. Little League is full of rivalries

Coaches have coached against each other for decades and have plenty of grudges.

If one team cheats, it's likely a coach who doesn't like him will find out about it.

The team going to Williamsport beat a lot of good teams to get there and those good teams know the top kids. If a strong player shows up in a different region, he will raise eyebrows.

Not only do coaches know all the good players in the area, they even know the best moms for helping in the dugouts, bringing snacks and keeping score. After the first few rounds of picks, weaker players get picked as "mom picks" meaning the kid's not very good, but his mom helps out a lot. I made a mom pick myself as there was a mom that would get the catchers ready and keep score for me every game. I always made sure I picked her sons.

[questionseverything]

169. no offense to these little league teams

but if they are following the rules and playing with their schools and neighborhoods, they are not "super teams"

pro players and sporting goods companies have been sponsoring travel teams for years, they can recruit from anywhere....i have been to tourneys where 5 of the 12 players were flown in from all over the country.... they were huge,and very skilled,kicked butt all up and down the list....that is a super team

looks to me this chicago team wanted that kind of respect without the work

[GGJohn]

15. The question is, is there any evidence of cheating by the other teams?

AFAIK, no, there isn't, so Jesse's allegations of racism is bullshit, he needs to just STFU about this.

[kcr]

20. AFAYK? Well then, why jump to the conclusion the allegations of racism are bullshit?

Since you admit you don't know.

[CANDO]

90. There are always allegations of teams cheating...

You just only hear about them when it reaches the LLWS. I'm from the Williamsport, PA area and for years there were investigations into some of the international leagues such as Taiwan and Japan alleging they stacked teams with players from very wide boundaries. They did find that a team from the Philippines stacked their roster. The phenom pitcher from NYC a few years ago was discovered to be 15 yrs old. He was a black kid. Didn't matter. I don't recall anyone accusing LL of racism regarding that, so why now for this Chicago team? It's been well documented by sports media that some of these kids were from outside their league's boundaries. Boundaries are established so that there can be fair competition. Anyone having a problem with that probably don't understand the concept of fairness and fair play. This has absolutely nothing to do with race. Those who wish to hurl the accusation only cheapen their argument when it might really be race based in other situations.

[kcr]

95. Why now? Because maybe it's true.

Curious how there's always allegations but yet somehow only three teams lost their wins in the last 68 years. One of them being the team from the Phillipines you mention and the other the team from the Bronx. I'm noticing a trend. There's always allegations of teams cheating, but somehow only a few end up paying the price. Now, how does that happen? But I guess we're not supposed to question it? I'm not going to slam those that do as playing the race card. I think how the LL handles things should be examined more closely. I can't help but notice that LL officials knew about the boundary issue and did nothing about it till after the season was over. Why is that?

[CANDO]

173. You are flat out wrong.

Read the material before you spout falsehoods. LL knew nothing of this particular league's boundaries problem until well after the LLWS. And then they initially considered it unsubstantiated. And only after receiving further evidence and communications did they reopen the investigation. They then went to Chicago and interviewed three other leagues affected by JRW's altered boundaries and found that they did indeed do so. Race based? Bullshit! The team from Philadelphia was accused of the same thing, but the teams making the accusation were not aware of the special exemptions on Taney's boundaries. As I said before, hurling the racist card in nearly every circumstance only makes legitimate fights against racism all the harder. Cheating is cheating, no matter the race or nationality. And for the record, no one is saying the kids did anything wrong. It was the adults who bent the rules and they're the ones to vent your anger toward.

[GGJohn]

119. I'll ask again,

is there any evidence of racism, other than Jesse's big mouth?

[kcr]

166. If you're so interested, feel free to look for yourself

I was curious myself and find that there is indeed reason for them to feel it was racially motivated. It wasn't that hard, actually

[glasshouses]

38. These kids aren't dumb

They knew they had been scouted and recruited from different districts

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

44. Yes, some of those kids knew they were cheating.

And that's sad. The kids who left their fellow players behind in the other leagues had to have known, but there was a map provided for plausible deniability.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

39. Yes, the team did cheat. If you know how LL works

it is clear they cheated, and it is highly likely several parents knew about it, and the kids who were recruited from outside probably knew, as well.

The Jackie Robinson team was already very, very good. Coaches think "If only we could fill positions x, y, and z, we might win the national championship!" They searched for players who were already playing in other leagues. These kids didn't just sprout up over night. They recruited those kids using a redrawn map, so the parents and kids could claim plausible deniability, but they knew. The parents and boys knew because they knew the players who were left behind on the teams from which they were recruited. Boundaries are almost always drawn so that kids from one school stay together.

My dad coached little league for years. (I played softball in girls leagues. ) I'm very familiar with how it works. Who knows how many teams they beat along the way that might have gotten farther along if the Jackie Robinson team didn't cheat.

[Ace Rothstein]

60. I believe they did.

There were kids from suburbs 20 miles away playing for the team.

A former MLB'er in his late 30's from the area tweeted that they were doing it when he was in Little League.

[uponit7771]

98. Because they moved during the season, again... I agree with Jesse, 6 months to figure this out

...seems to me to be looking for something

[Ace Rothstein]

106. The regional office was in cahoots with JRW.

The rest of the leagues within the district did not sign off on the maps that JRW drew up on their own so they could stack their team. The national organization finally met with some of the other leagues within the district last week and with this new information decided to strip the title.

[Thinkingabout]

4. If the team leaders cheated then if there is any harm to the players then this hurt is on the

leaders. I feel sure this is not the only case of cheating but it does not excuse any one connected to cheating. We are not sending our younger generations the values they need in life. Jessie Jackson should have addressed the leaders, told them they failed these young men, and facing these young men and explaining their actions as being wrong.

[cwydro]

6. Cheating is cheating.

Shut up Jesse.

[840high]

92. +100

[TheCowsCameHome]

7. Oh, cut the crap, Jesse.

Lying, cheating adults brought this on the team and community.

Go after them why don't you, that's where the blame lies. It's time for you get your head out of your butt.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

13. Thank you.

nt

[TheCowsCameHome]

16. You're welcome. This disgusts me on so many levels

Here's Jackson spouting off right out of the gate about "racism", while it was sleazebag, cheating adults that put those Chicago kids into this situation, and where's Jackson's sympathy for the Nevada team that didn't get to go to the White House and enjoy all the honor and accolades that are part of being crowned Little League champions?

He doesn't give a filddler's **** about them.

Go pound sand, Jesse.

[bigwillq]

17. If the team cheated, they should be penalized

regardless of race.
Sometimes it takes months to conduct an investigation.

[kcr]

35. True. But if rules are going to be enforced, shouldn't they be enforced fairly?

If they aren't, then it's hardly fair to hold some up to higher standards than others. Particularly if this is used as yet another tool to enforce inequality. Why should the AA team be held to a much higher standard than the others and be the only team to be punished for breaking certain rules? Instead of just dismissing them as cheaters and and ignoring the claims that this is unfair, it deserves to at least be looked at.

[bigwillq]

41. I'm all for rules being enforced fairly.

But I think the issue is that this Chicago team won the national championship. If they had not, I don't think there would've been an investigation. I think it had more to do with the fact that they won---and someone decided to look into this team because they won.
I've seen similar cases where a winning team won and they were investigated for allegations of cheating. Sometimes those teams were comprised of a majority of black athletes, sometimes a majority of white athletes, sometimes a majority of latino athletes.
Race may be one issue in this case, but I don't think it's the only issue.

[kcr]

46. Do you think all teams that win get the same level of scrutiny?

See, if this had just been one investigation, I might agree. But some weren't satisfied when the initial investigation turned up no cheating and wouldn't let it drop.

[bigwillq]

48. In some cases, yes.

I do think they get the same level of scrutiny, and they should. If there are rumors of cheating, a team should be investigated and punished accordingly, regardless of race.

I've been involved in sports in many capacities my whole life. I've seen many instances of cheating, and investigations and rumors. A team is pissed that they lost, so they go after the winning team, even if an initial investigation turns up nothing. Some were white teams, some were black. Some white people went after other white people, some white people went after black people, some black people went after white people. Most of the cases I've been familiar with were at a local and state level, so it didn't get the attention that the LITTLE LEAGUE WORLD SERIES is getting, but I've seen cases like this. Again, race may be one issue, but not the only issue.

[kcr]

52. I'm not saying teams shouldn't be investigated for cheating

What makes you think they get the same level of scrutiny? Do you follow LL closely? Or is this just a feeling you have?

[bigwillq]

53. I would say I follow LL closely.

I cover LL for the newspaper I write for in CT. I've seen cases on my local and state level involving cheating, and I would say that LL officials have taken those cases seriously and used the same amount of scrutiny for each case.

[kcr]

54. So, there have been other teams that won the national title and had them stripped?

I think LL should stay local. Less pressure and tends to stay on the up an up at that level. It's too big for kids that age making it a national level championship, with national TV coverage.

[bigwillq]

56. This link has some good information

about LL teams that had to vacate wins.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/2015/02/11/chicago-little-league-championship-team-stripped-of-title/23225915/

~~snip~~

This is the third time in the 68-year history of the Little League World Series that Little League International had vacated wins after an investigation had revealed wrongdoing. In 1992, a team from the Philippines was disqualified and in 2001 a team from the Bronx was disqualified.

~~snip~~

I know that some of the teams in my local area had to forfeit games or championships for breaking the rules.

[kcr]

74. So, three teams in 68 years

Only two others have ever been vacated. That's rather what I suspected at that level. It's going to be a pretty big deal to have a national championship win vacated.

[Ace Rothstein]

71. There was a team in Georgia stripped of a State Championship last year.

http://www.cbs46.com/story/26195315/peachtree-city-little-league-team-stripped-of-state-championship

[kcr]

75. Only two other teams have been stripped of their national title in 68 years

So, doesn't happen very often.

[Ace Rothstein]

77. Maybe there aren't that many teams cheating?

I really don't know.

[kcr]

80. Well, I don't either

Which is why I don't assume they're just being sore losers and playing the race card is my only point. I think they might be right. That's an awful long time.

[questionseverything]

78. most cheating teams do not get as far as nationals

this team had the local district people in on the falsification, that is why it took so long to prove it

[kcr]

81. I think it's plausible that at least some of them did, though.

The higher the level being aspired to, the higher the pressure. What does high pressure do? Induce some people to cheat. I'm not arguing that cheating doesn't exist, or that it exists but shouldn't be punished, or that it exists but shouldn't be punished in this instance. I'm saying that I think a scenario where one team or a minority of teams could possibly receive more scrutiny because of racism. And I don't understand the hostile reaction that gets (that point is not directed at you). If that is what is happening here, that should be brought to light.

[questionseverything]

87. winning teams receive more scrutiny

once a team has lost, no one cares because they are "out"

i married a baseball guy, have lived baseball for 30 years plus now

little league is designed for neighborhood building and the boundaries are strictly enforced as are the age limits

if this team wanted to build a superteam as has been reported and ignore boundaries they should of played travel ball which is much more competitive.....the coaches,parents and probably the players all knew what was going on but what bothers me the most is the district office was in on it, that is why it took so long to prove

other pro players have done similar stuff (building superteams) but they play travel ball so it is legal...this team stayed in a "smaller" venue to gain advantage

if you are perceiving a hostile reaction i think it is because you are ignoring people that have followed the sport for years and they are frustrated trying to explain it to you

eligibility being challenged is just part of the game

[kcr]

89. I know baseball guys (and girls) too

They tend to like stats. So, I don't understand why some want to ignore the numbers, here. At the very least, they should make some go, hmm. I sure do. When you look it, it does seem odd.

[questionseverything]

91. if it makes ya feel better

i am sure as we speak, someone,somewhere is digging thru the las vegas team roster looking for something to challenge,which is good...keeps everybody honest

[kcr]

101. I read that somewhere upthread and that does make me feel better

I have a feeling there may have been some parents who were supporting the intensified investigation who might end up being sorry.

[onenote]

115. You seem to be making a lot of assumptions

Without the slightest hint of a fact to back them up.

On what basis do you presume that the rules haven't been enforced fairly? Facts? Allegations? Anything?
On what basis do you presume that the "AA team" has been held to a higher standard than others?

[kcr]

164. What assumptions am I making?

I don't presume anything.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

141. Arguably, in a competition it's only necessary to enforce rules against winners.

In principle, if you can test for cheating after the fact, it's only necessary to look to see if the winner of a competition has cheated and punish them if so. That way, potential cheats know that they won't be able to win by cheating, and so there's no incentive to do it. An obvious example of this would be drug testing the winners of cycling competitions.

That said, I suspect that in practice the deterrent effect is significantly lessened if you know that you probably won't be punished if you don't win. So while that's an elegant piece of theory, I suspect that's all it is.

Certainly, at a bare minimum you need to be rigorous about enforcing rules against winners on a game by game basis, not just the ultimate winner.

But I don't think any harm would be done by letting any team who never won a game get away with cheating.

[kcr]

165. Rigorous and consistent.

With the rules evenly and fairly applied every time.

[dembotoz]

19. happens all the gol damned time

raise up a kid who is going to be very good at a sport and somehow a transfer
can be made to another district where the team and coaching is better....
(yes i know of 14kt example from where i live)
its not right
it is cheating
but nobody is going to do anything because sports are king

[cherokeeprogressive]

23. Let's say Grambling University wins a baskeball title with players later found to be ineligible...

Would Jesse say race should be a factor in determining whether or not to punish the university? Would DU?

And would someone else say "do what you must, but DON'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT DURING FEBRUARY"?

[Iggo]

29. More like cheatism.

[ProfessorGAC]

34. I Have Concerns About This Too

At least one of the cases of ineligibility was because a kid MOVED several miles.

And, after reading the comments to the linked story, i'm behind the kids on this team more than ever. There was just one hateful, racist, reactionary comment after another.

Man, there is so much stupid.

[riderinthestorm]

72. +1 I'm not a huge Jesse Jackson fan but that this winning AA team is singled out

Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Is it certain that no other teams have cheated?

The punishment seems awfully harsh and should be directed at the parents and coaches Imho.

A troubling case for sure.

[Yupster]

205. So what should Little League have done?

Once they determined the team cheated, what were they supposed to do?

In the past they have stripped the team of their wins.

Should they have not done it in this case?

Why not?

[riderinthestorm]

207. Punish the coaches with heavy fines and permanent suspensions

Asterisk the win for posterity. Elevate the losing team in the record books as well and treat those kids to all the perks that the winning team received.

The Jackie Robinson team won't be able to field the same team two years in a row since the cheating is now exposed, and certainly won't be winning with an entirely new coaching staff.

[ScreamingMeemie]

113. ...and then, there is this...

http://abc7chicago.com/sports/chicago-mom-claims-suburban-little-league-team-forged-residency/514122/

[rogerashton]

40. The Chicago team knocked this team out in the semi

Taney Dragons

[LittleBlue]

45. They had to be stripped of the title

If they weren't punished, every team in the country would scramble for players outside their area.

Hopefully the kids learned a valuable life lesson.

[dilby]

55. Deflate 11 footballs = Superbowl Champions

And people wonder why little league teams cheat, they are only learning from the Pros.

[Capt. Obvious]

61. 11 Footballs? Try 1

[KamaAina]

63. And that was the one that was intercepted

and spent quite a bit of time on the Dolts' sideline.

[dilby]

67. 1 was 2 pounds under, some were just a few ticks under.

But 11 of them were under inflated to what is expected.

[cherokeeprogressive]

73. Wow, I hadn't heard they found deflated baseballs. This is a whole 'nuther avenue for investigation.

[Nye Bevan]

76. The biggest problem with Jackson falsely crying racism here

is that it makes him less credible when he calls out real racism.

I'm pretty sure the league hated to take this title away, as it was such a great story. But when the evidence of cheating was so overwhelming they really had no choice. Not stripping the team of their title would mean that everyone in the future still has an overwhelming incentive to cheat.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

83. It was a great story...especially considering

how few black kids are playing baseball these days. It seems like many of our professional black players come from other countries, now.

[uponit7771]

97. After reading the story I don't think the "crys" are false, the officials looks to be stretching the

...the rules on this one.

One kid moved several times, that's not the teams fault.

Also, there seems to be double takes in scrutinization....not the teams fault either.

I'll wait for me to come out

But I don't give the league the benefit of the doubt after taking 6 months

[onenote]

116. Did you read the League's report and timeline?

It indicates the problems were a bit more than your post suggests.
http://www.littleleague.org/media/llnewsarchive/2015/January-April/little-league-jrw-ruling.htm


Little League International also learned that Jackie Robinson West Little League knowingly expanded its boundaries to include territory that belonged to other leagues in the district without approval from the other leagues or the Little League International Charter Committee, as stated in Little League’s Official Regulations and Playing Rules. Little League International also found that Jackie Robinson West Little League used a falsified boundary map for their 2014 tournament, and that Jackie Robinson West Little League officials met with other leagues in Illinois District 4 to try to get the territory they wrongfully claimed was theirs for their 2014 tournament. The decision is based on falsifying documents and illegally expanding boundaries to include residences that would verify the players’ eligibility.

[NaturalHigh]

155. It took several years for USC to be stripped...

of the 2005 BCS national championship. I hardly think a six-month investigation is too long.

[FBaggins]

118. Much as I don't think much of his crediblity... that's not the biggest problem

There are kids on that team that knew they cheated... and now many more know it.

What message does this send to the next generation of potential community leaders?

[TheCowsCameHome]

94. How about those Las Vegas kids, Jesse? You feel anything for them?

I watched those games, and felt the heartbreak when Nevada boys lost, while the Chicago kids did their victory laps.

They got screwed out of the trip to the White House and all the glory and excitement that goes with winning a championship.

Who is going to try to make them whole? (although realistically it can't be done now)

Go away, Jesse, just go away. You've worn out your welcome.

[hifiguy]

102. People cheated.

They got caught.

It took some time to discover the cheating.

Deal with it.

Cheating is cheating, and especially disgusting in something like Little League.

[NaturalHigh]

103. Don't blame racism.

Blame the coaches and parents who thought it was cool to cheat to win a title.

Just what does it say to the kids when the parents break the rules to win an undeserved championship? That's not setting a very good example in my opinion.

[randys1]

117. Dont blame racism says the experts who know all about racism

[Ace Rothstein]

122. Don't blame those who cheated when you can just cry racism.

[randys1]

123. I see the whole team of racism experts has arrived LOL

[Ace Rothstein]

126. I never claimed to be a racism expert.

You seem to be blaming the wrong party in this situation.

[NaturalHigh]

153. I don't think it's in dispute that the team cheated...

and used ineligible players. Do you think they should have gotten a pass because the players are black?

That would be racism.

You seem angry at my previous reply. I can't see that anything I said was controversial. The team (read players and coaches) cheated. That's what cost them the title, not racism. It's sad for the kids, who are obviously talented and worked hard, but that's what happens when you get caught cheating.

You know, USC was stripped of its 2005 BCS championship because it was proven that the coaches and sponsors cheated. Do you blame racism for that too?

[randys1]

104. "It is amazing to me that whenever African-Americans exceed the expectations that there is always

going to be fault"


i took that off of a comment at the article, says it better than I can...

[cherokeeprogressive]

111. Bullshit. This is competitive sports. The goal, hence the expectation is to win.

Not only that, but to win fairly. None of the adults exceeded THAT expectation on the JRW side, did they?

[Nye Bevan]

124. Was Barry Bonds' cheating exposed due to racism?

How about Mark McGwire?

[randys1]

125. I am only an observer, writing a paper on racist experts. Carry on, continue to

lecture us as to what is and is not racism.



p.s. that Barry Bonds isnt in the hall of fame is one of the great jokes of all time, but I think Pete Rose should be in as well.

carry on with the lecture, I am all ears

[Nye Bevan]

127. Well I guess it's not racism keeping Pete Rose out. (nt)

[GGJohn]

131. You're the one lecturing on what is racism and what is not. eom.

[randys1]

133. And yet it was you who just said the following

Racism wasn't a factor in the stripping of the title

this cant get any funnier

or sad

[GGJohn]

134. Do you have any evidence, other than your bullshit allegation,

that this is race based?

[randys1]

137. You are the one who just ended the conversation, you are an expert, you know ALL the facts

of the case, the history of the league and their actions, the history of all prior teams and their actions, and you have (to be fair you arent the only one doing it here) stated AS FACT that no racism, at all, was involved in this situation.

[GGJohn]

139. Again, do you have ANY evidence that this is race based?

Simple question.

[randys1]

142. You already closed the conversatipm, you know the history of the league, you know everything that

ever happened and you and the others have informed us, no racism, no double standard.


I am just observing

[GGJohn]

144. So why are you so afraid to answer a simple question?

Could it be that you can't answer question?

[randys1]

145. I am not answering questions, I am observing white people lecturing others about what is

and what is not racist.

[GGJohn]

146. Funny thing, this is a chat board, not a picture board,

how do you know the color of the members here?

[randys1]

147. I dont, I am making assumptions...if I am wrong, please let me know

I would never question the position of someone who's shoes i cant put myself in the place of.

If you are a Black man or Woman who has the politics of a Clarence Thomas, for instance, I will vehemently disagree with your politics, but I will NEVER assume I know why you have taken the positions you have

Now if you are a white, straight, protestant male (some females too but I cant speak for them) then I pretty much know why you do or say what you do

[GGJohn]

149. You are wrong, I'm of Hispanic descent,

my politics range from moderate on some issues and progressive on others.

[randys1]

150. OK, that is great. I have some Cherokee blood in me, but I always describe myself absolutely

as white.

I have English and German blood too.

I also NEVER assume I know anything about things like racism or misogyny or bigotry of Gays or Muslims or Jewish folk or Native Americans from the position of making snap judgments or pretending to know anything in comparison to a member of that group, or any kind of bigotry toward any group which has suffered tremendously forever and still does in this country.



I think it is Cherokee, could be Sioux, I would have to go and look again.

[NaturalHigh]

201. I'm a white, straight, protestant male.

Why do I do or say what I do? I await your wisdom.

[Nye Bevan]

148. Some people assume that the only black DUers are those who frequent the African-American group (nt)

[NaturalHigh]

160. You seem pretty certain that there is a racist motive.

There is absolutely no evidence to support that conclusion.

[frylock]

184. there is ZERO evidence that racism was a factor in stripping their title..

if you have evidence to the contrary, please do share with the group.

[GGJohn]

128. Bullshit.

They exceeded because the adults and coaches cheated.
Racism wasn't a factor in the stripping of the title, cheating was the sole factor, unless you have info different from what the investigating officials have.
Do you?

[randys1]

132. I see the African American DU members arent even going to bother posting in this thread

all the white experts on racism have left them no alternative, it seems

Though I am not speaking for them, just an observation

[GGJohn]

136. Is your evidence of this being race based is that there is no evidence? eom

[SickOfTheOnePct]

157. Why do you believe this was based on racism?

You being the resident racism expert and all.

[randys1]

178. Not me, I am not the one WHO HAS CONCLUDED that NO racism AT ALL occurred here

the experts here have done that.

They know, for a fact, absolutely, discussion over

[Nye Bevan]

175. This dude has posted in this thread a couple of times:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6217894

Don't you believe his username?

[hughee99]

197. It would have been a much more powerful

Statement if they didn't actually get caught cheating.

[Yupster]

206. How do African-Americans exceed expectations at competitive sports?

Are people surprised when African-Americans excel in sports?

Even the Red Sox eventually figured that one out.

[Whiskeytide]

109. It doesn't matter...

... if other teams cheated. This team cheated. The "But mom, everyone else is doing it" defense has no merit, and all of us should have abandoned it by 3rd grade.

And, if this team was scrutinized more closely because the kids were black, then LL should be ashamed of itself, and those responsible should be flamed and fired because they are assholes.

But that ....... IN NO WAY ........... excuses this team from the consequences of cheating. They cheated. There is no "but" following that.

[Xithras]

110. My kids have played Little League and Cal Ripken for years.

Our local leagues have always been militant about verifying that we live within their approved boundaries. I had to provide their birth certificates when we first signed up, and every single year we have to submit school records and utility bills proving that we still live within their authorized area. They've always made it clear that even a single unverified kid could get our entire local league penalized.

My experience has been exactly the opposite of what this article is suggesting. These leagues don't "look the other way" for ANYBODY. If you're not in their territory, you don't get to play. Their "everybody does it" defense just doesn't ring true.

If Chicago was recruiting beyond their boundaries, that's valid grounds to strip their title. That's a tragic thing to do do the kids, but their own local league and parents are to blame for this.

[Initech]

114. Th ey should have taken a page from the New England Patriots school of cheating .

Just take the commissioner of the league out for a five star meal the eve of the championship and you can get away with anything.

[Nye Bevan]

129. Congratulations to Mountain View (Las Vegas) Little League, the true US champions.

I hope they get invited to the White House (as the cheating team did).

[randys1]

177. Look at all those REAL american faces...now THAT is what I call AMERICA

[SickOfTheOnePct]

179. I guess you think that the Las Vegas team

shouldn't have the title because of all the white faces?

If this situation were reversed, i.e., had the LV team won the title then found to have been cheating, I'm guessing you would have no problem whatsoever with stripping them of the title and having it awarded to the Chicago team.

It isn't racist to say that being humans, blacks cheat sometimes too, just as whites do. And the punishment should be the same.

[randys1]

181. Wonderful smiling faces, who could be bothered by that?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

183. No one should

but you obviously do, as demonstrated to your "REAL American faces" comment.

Too bad the LV team was cheated out of everything else that came with winning the title, such as trips to the LL World Series and the White House.

[B Calm]

130. I think it was a jealous coach that made the stink.

[FBaggins]

138. That's part of the coach's job

The kids are supposed to play the game. The coach teaches sportsmanship/honesty and makes sure that the other coach is doing the same thing. If a bat shows up corked (if they even used wooden bats in the league)... the coach "makes the stink". The players play.

The integrity of the game is the responsibility of the league and the team leadership.

[ScreamingMeemie]

162. ...

http://abc7chicago.com/sports/chicago-mom-claims-suburban-little-league-team-forged-residency/514122/

[frylock]

185. she's racist

[Thinkingabout]

135. If the rules are to apply to all teams then all teams should abide by the rules.

It isn't about race it is about making fairness for all, I would have thought Jessie Jackson would be on the side of equality for all and not for those who cheat to gain the upper hand.

[bluestateguy]

140. Here's the way I judge it

is this rule that they are alleged to have violated usually enforced and without discriminatory results? If it is, then the racism is harder to prove.

If this is a case of selective enforcement of a dormant rule that is often flouted without penalty, then the local league has a legitimate beef.

[GGJohn]

143. LL is pretty anal about enforcing boundries,

at least that was my experience when my kids were playing LL baseball.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

171. LL is very strict about enforcing the boundaries

and coaches are supposed to verify addresses, schools, etc.

However, if they are cheating, they aren't usually caught until they get into the playoffs, when the ringers on the team are spotted by students and parents in the league where the ringers are supposed to be playing.

That goes for overaged players, as well.

In this particular instance, a parent saw a sign congratulating one of the players on the Jackie Robinson team in the 'burb where the player lived and his cover was blown.

[KamaAina]

156. Update: The team has hired a lawyer

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/disgraced-jackie-robinson-west-little-league-team-hires-lawyer-n305356

A day after getting stripped of their national crown, officials from Chicago's Jackie Robinson West Little League team appeared Thursday with a newly hired lawyer who pledged to review Little League International's investigation to make sure it was done fairly.

"I want to make sure that whatever rules and regulations applied to Jackie Robinson West were applied to every other team," the lawyer, Victor Henderson, said at a news conference.

Henderson said he's also told the players, and team officials, that they should not give up their claim to the title just yet....

But that is really just a symbolic gesture: Little League International, which holds the Little League World Series and awarded the title, has already vacated all of the team's tournament wins and handed the championship to the runner-up, Mountain Ridge Little League of Las Vegas.

[TransitJohn]

172. This was inevitable and is the reason it took so long for action after the facts were known

All African-American team and coaches made the national LL hesitant to enforce rules.

[onenote]

182. Do you have a link to when the "facts were known"?

[TransitJohn]

188. Formal complaints started as long ago as at least last October.

In October, Chris Janes, of the Evergreen Park Little League, sent a letter to Little League International asking officials to investigate whether Jackie Robinson West engaged in “manipulating, bending and blatantly breaking the rules for the sole purpose of winning at all costs.”

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20141223/morgan-park/jackie-robinson-west-secretly-changed-boundary-add-star-players-sources

[GGJohn]

193. That doesn't mean the facts were known then,

that just means that a complaint was lodged and a formal investigation was requested, then there's the time it took for the investigation, then the report had to be written and forwarded to the governing entity, then the consultations on the appropriate actions to take, this would take several months in it's entirety to be completed.

[TransitJohn]

195. It took two months, in fact, if you want to continue to quibble and split hairs

'the facts were known' in December, which was when the article I posted was written; did you read it? Sheesh.

[B Calm]

176. Are they going to strip New England Patriots of Super Bowl championship?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

180. What does that have to do with anything? n/t

[B Calm]

189. All sport teams cheat one way or another.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

192. I don't believe that all sports team do cheat

But what if the Patriots did cheat? It has zero to do with the Chicago LL team cheating, which they obviously did.

Taking away the championship was the absolute right thing to do.

[B Calm]

194. LOL

Probably every Little League team in the World Series had one or two players on their team that lied about their age, were not living in the area that they were suppose to be from, etc.

Those kids won the World Series. Handing the championship to another team is just wrong.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

196. No, they didn't win the World Series

They lost in the LL World Series.

If teams have players that lie about their age, and no one files a complaint, there will be no investigation, and they won't forfeit games. But when a complaint is filed, investigated, and found to be true, the team needs to be punished for cheating.

Taking away the wins and the championship was a good call, and kudos to the Little League for doing the right thing.

If they didn't want to face having the championship taken away from them, they shouldn't have cheated.

[Takket]

187. No

Even if the patriots are fined for deflating balls in the AFC championship game, which is looking more and more likely as time goes by (because the whole story is being debunked), there is no reason to believe they did anything wrong in the Super Bowl and therefor no reason to punish them.

[B Calm]

190. None of the players were taking steroids?

[hughee99]

198. I'm not aware of any that were caught, at least.

Are you suggesting that they should take away the pats SB win for something they DIDN'T get caught doing?

In either case, the ball deflation, steroids and recruiting all have defined punishments available. In the little league case, they take your wins away. I'm not aware of any NFL policy that allows for that for ANY rule violation.

Sounds like your grapes went sour a few weeks ago. You should throw them out and get some new ones.

[Takket]

200. nope.

[B Calm]

208. LOL Sure okay. . .

[ARMYofONE]

186. There is so much white privilege in this thread. It's disgusting.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

199. No, there's people who realize that facts are sometimes just facts

I've been around baseball my whole life. My dad coached. My siblings and I played. (Well, I played softball back in the day.)

This was a great story. As far as black players go, I lament the fact that we can't seem to produce as many good black baseball players as we once did. It seems that many of our black players come from other countries, now.

I am a white member of a family with several hispanic members and one asian, so I don't see all the racism that black people do; I'm sure I miss a lot, in fact. Conversely, I think that some black folks see racism when it is not there. You are accustomed to seeing racism, so that is what you see, but denying racism in this case is not "white privilege."

[GGJohn]

202. No, what's disgusting is your comment here.

[Nye Bevan]

203. Welcome to DU!