How much social justice would $3,000,000,000,000 buy?

[Fumesucker]

“Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.” -Dwight Eisenhower

His son John Eisenhower writes, “The most fundamental conviction that the period of Ike’s command in Europe and the Mediterranean imprinted on his mind was the cruelty, wastefulness and stupidity of war.

According to Nobel winning economist Joseph Stiglitz the eventual cost of the Iraq war will be over three trillion dollars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Trillion_Dollar_War

There's two possible reasons I can think of to explain why Hillary Clinton voted for the Iraq War Resolution; the first possible reason is that Hillary genuinely believed that the Iraq war was the right war in the right place at the right time for the right reasons with the right people commanding the action and the second reason is that she didn't think the Iraq war was the right war at the right place at the right time and so on but she thought she had to vote for it for reasons of politics.

In my view the first explanation, thinking that Dubya was the right President to invade Iraq and that Iraq needed to be invaded at that time shows a remarkable lack of good judgement and a callous disregard for the vulnerable not only in this country but in Iraq as well.

I'll leave it up to you as to what you think of the second explanation.

[Autumn]

1. A hell of a lot. Now I'm not going to hold her vote against her, most democrats did vote for it.

The fact that she supports the wars now is only one of my concerns. These are wars of choice and in her position of SOS she fucking knows what happened was wrong. Endless war does nothing to help the people who need help. 16 years of the status quo is more than enough. People are being pushed to the edge on a cliff and the safety net is shrinking below them.

[MannyGoldstein]

6. My dear Autumn...

IIRC, most Democratic Senators voted for the thing, by a small margin. But if we include the House, most Democrats voted against it.

Those voting for it were a who's-who of people with presidential ambitions.

[Autumn]

7. I stand corrected my dearest Manny, I only included the senate since our VP was happy to vote for it

as was our former candidate for the presidency and current SOS and ignored the house But I must give her a pass on her vote, even though it showed poor judgment One of my many problems with Hillary at this time is that as our SOS, she had to have been privy to information that the rest of we little people knew way back when we were against the war. And she still supports endless wars. Not a good thing Manny.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

21. Sans Kucinich who led the anti-war effort.

[LWolf]

11. I hold it against her, because

more principled Democrats did not. 59.8% of Democrats in the House and 42% in the Senate did not vote for the IWR.

That said, the fact that she STILL supports the bogus "war on terror" and other military actions is of more concern. I agree with the rest of your assessment.

[Autumn]

12. I understand why you hold it against her and I support you on that. She still supports the wars

and the bogus war on terror and is fine with more wars, I can not and will not accept that.

[bvar22]

47. I saved the names.

These Democrats should be remembered for their principled stand against the WAR Machine.

IWR
The Authorization to Use Force in Iraq

United States Senate

In the Senate, the 21 Democrats, one Republican and one Independent courageously voted their consciences in 2002 against the War in Iraq :

Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii)
Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)
Barbara Boxer (D-California)
Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)
Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)
Jon Corzine (D-New Jersey)
Mark Dayton (D-Minnesota)
Dick Durbin (D-Illinois)
Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin)
Bob Graham (D-Florida)
Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii)
Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont)
Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts)
Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont)
Carl Levin (D-Michigan)
Barbara Mikulski (D-Maryland)
Patty Murray (D-Washington)
Jack Reed (D-Rhode Island)
Paul Sarbanes (D-Maryland)
Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan)
The late Paul Wellstone (D-Minnesota)
Ron Wyden (D-Oregon)

Lincoln Chaffee (R-Rhode Island)


United States House of Representatives

Six House Republicans and one independent joined 126 Democratic members of the House of Represenatives:

Neil Abercrombie (D-Hawaii)
Tom Allen (D-Maine)
Joe Baca (D-California)
Brian Baird (D-Washington DC)
John Baldacci (D-Maine, now governor of Maine)
Tammy Baldwin (D-Wisconsin)
Xavier Becerra (D-California)
Earl Blumenauer (D-Oregon)
David Bonior (D-Michigan, retired from office)
Robert Brady (D-Pennsylvania)
Corinne Brown (D-Florida)
Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio)
Lois Capps (D-California)
Michael Capuano (D-Massachusetts)
Benjamin Cardin (D-Maryland)
Julia Carson (D-Indiana)
William Clay, Jr. (D-Missouri)
Eva Clayton (D-North Carolina, retired from office)
James Clyburn (D-South Carolina)
Gary Condit (D-California, retired from office)
John Conyers, Jr. (D-Michigan)
Jerry Costello (D-Illinois)
William Coyne (D-Pennsylvania, retired from office)
Elijah Cummings (D-Maryland)
Susan Davis (D-California)
Danny Davis (D-Illinois)
Peter DeFazio (D-Oregon)
Diana DeGette (D-Colorado)
Bill Delahunt (D-Massachusetts)
Rosa DeLauro (D-Connecticut)
John Dingell (D-Michigan)
Lloyd Doggett (D-Texas)
Mike Doyle (D-Pennsylvania)
Anna Eshoo (D-California)
Lane Evans (D-Illinois)
Sam Farr (D-California)
Chaka Fattah (D-Pennsylvania)
Bob Filner (D-California)
Barney Frank (D-Massachusetts)
Charles Gonzalez (D-Texas)
Luis Gutierrez (D-Illinois)
Alice Hastings (D-Florida)
Earl Hilliard (D-Alabama, retired from office)
Maurice Hinchey (D-New York)
Ruben Hinojosa (D-Texas)
Rush Holt (D-New Jersey)
Mike Honda (D-California)
Darlene Hooley (D-Oregon)
Inslee
Jackson (Il.)
Jackson-Lee (TX)
Johnson, E.B.
Jones (OH)
Kaptur
Kildee
Kilpatrick
Kleczka
Kucinich
LaFalce
Langevin
Larsen (WA)
Larson (CT)
Lee
Levin
Lewis (GA)
Lipinski
Lofgren
Maloney (CT)
Matsui
McCarthy (MO)
McCollum
McDermott
McGovern
McKinney
Meek (FL)
Meeks (NY)
Menendez
Millender-McDonald
Miller
Mollohan
Moran (Va)
Nadler
Napolitano
Neal
Oberstar
Obey
Olver
Owens
Pallone
Pastor
Payne
Pelosi
Price (NC)
Rahall
Rangel
Reyes
Rivers
Rodriguez
Roybal-Allard
Rush
Sabo
Sanchez
Sanders
Sawyer
Schakowsky
Scott
Serrano
Slaughter
Snyder
Solis
Stark
Strickland
Stupak
Thompson (CA)
Thompson (MS)
Tierney
Towns
Udall (NM)
Udall (CO)
Velazquez
Visclosky
Waters
Watson
Watt
Woolsey
Wu

(apologies for the loss of data)

There is NO valid excuse for those Democrats who voted FOR the Authorization to Use Force.
They KNEW what they were doing.
This gave Bush the Lesser permission to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis.
They chose Political Expediency over Morality,
and THAT should be the epitaph on their tombstones.

[Autumn]

48. We knew, they in their positions had to have known more and yet they voted for it

a war resolution against a country that had nothing to do with 9/11. Yes that should be the epitaph on their tombstones.

[merrily]

67. I'd like to see Russ Feingold in the primary.

I wonder if he would be be able to carry his state, though. Presidential candidates who can't carry their own states have a tough row to hoe.

[bvar22]

70. I would too!!!

He has dropped off my radar, but I would PROUDLY vote & work for him.
He is a Democrat to be proud of.

[calimary]

75. Good list. A keeper.

Thanks, bvar22! Worth remembering.

[bobclark86]

79. Your list is missing Amo Houghton.

U.S. Rep. Amory Houghton, R-NY29, voted nay.

[merrily]

52. Others voting against it doesn't excuse her. If any other who voted for that invasion run for

POTUS, I will hold them accountable, too. Many Democrats who were not privy to any special info whatever were shouting at their TV sets whenever Condi, Cheney and Rummy appeared, saying ridiculous things to try to sell the invasion to us How is it that all of us were positive it was bs and Hillary claims to have relied on Bsh for the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

Besides, Hillary did not only vote for the invasion, she advocated for it.

[Autumn]

61. I can't be a hypocrite. I voted for Kerry when he ran and he voted for it so to me I owed her a pass

But she and Kerry are big cheerleaders for endless war and I have no more good will to spare. It was all bullshit. We knew, they had to have known they had a hell of a lot more information than we did. They chose to ignore it and as you say, actively advocated for it.

[merrily]

63. You gave Kerry a pass compared to Bush, who owns the who effing war.

We are coming up on a primary, not a Presidential. No need to give her a pass in a primary.

Besides, as one of the self help gurus says, when you know better, you do better. In 2004, you did not know the full consequences and ramifications of that invasion. Sadly, we still may not know all of them, but we do know more.

So overall, I don't think anything obligates you to give her a pass in a 2015 primary because you gave Kerry one in the 2004 general.

No, Hillary advocated for it in a way all of them did not. She got up in the Senate and made a ten minute speech to tell her fellow Senators how necessary the invasion was. I don't know if Kerry did that or not, but that was not what every Dem who voted for the invasion did.

[NYC_SKP]

2. Just like her husband, who condemned a mentally ill man to death just to get elected.

That was one of a few things that just made me sick about Bill Clinton.

Letting Ricky Ray Rector be executed.

"Despite Rector's mental state, then Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton made a point of returning to Arkansas to oversee Rector's January 24, 1992 execution during the 1992 U.S. Presidential campaign."

[Fumesucker]

3. Arguably worse

By 2003 anyone with a functioning command of the English language knew Dubya was a maroon who should not be entrusted with sharp objects let alone a suitable commander in chief of an aggressive preemptive war by the mightiest military on the planet based on obvious lies.

I have more respect for her intelligence and her connections than to think Hillary was fooled.

[rhett o rick]

44. I totally agree with you but do wonder still why she might have thought it was

a good move politically. She must have known that Bush and his clown admin would bungle it badly. Just think of her political power had she opposed the war. Possibly her puppet masters told her to support the war.

[merrily]

53. Center right think tanks did think it was a good idea, but I don't think that excuses her.

[rhett o rick]

83. There is no excusing the bastards that pushed us into that war. But it doesn't make sense for

her to vote for Bush's war from any standpoint I can think of other than the idea that maybe her handlers told her to do it. If you have an explanation, I'd like to hear it.

[merrily]

86. Not only voted. Advocated for it. Tried to persuade her fellow Senators to vote for it.

Whatever their reasons, DLC and PPI were for the invasion; and she was one of them. I don't know how to explain why they were for it. Everyone I know knew with zero doubt that Bushco were lying--and not even bothering do a half way credible job of lying.

People in a nation probably would hang flowers around the necks of an invading army? HA! (Even if you accept the gratitude premise, did Cheney confuse Iraq with Hawaii? AFAIK, Iraqis do not routinely bestow flower leis on anyone.)

Given Iraq oil, the war was not going to cost much, if anything? We might even come out ahead? HA!

No Vietnam-like quagmire, we'd probably be in and out in six months? HA!

It all sounded ludicrous and contrary to human experience. Anyone who bought it was stupid and I don't think Democratic Senators are stupid. Even if one or two is, they caucus with smart people.

[jwirr]

4. And it is not the rich who profited from the war in the ME that are being asked to pay for it.

[merrily]

54. To the contrary, the US requires that the nations let military contractors off the hook, even if

they murdered an innocent person intentionally. That is why we finally left Iraq. Bush had agreed to a withdrawal date. Obama wanted to stay beyond the date, but Iraq would not extend the date for protection of the contractors. Now, we're there again, so I assume they signed a new protective document.

Of course, the contractors who are there are not always the rich ones. But, when an employee screws up, you usually sue the employer, too.

[BrotherIvan]

82. + infinity

What has our country become? We are the terrorists of this planet. People complain about Putin, ha!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. He's right. Either she voted for the IWR out of political expediency or she's stupid.

In either case she shouldn't be president and I won't vote for her.

[hifiguy]

51. Either of which disqualifies her from the presidency

in my book.

[Enthusiast]

76. +1

Political expediency all the way. There's a lot of it going around.

[LuvNewcastle]

8. If she voted for the war out of political

expediency, which I think she did, she cannot be trusted. I knew the Bush administration was lying, so I'm pretty sure Hillary did as well. If she's not as smart as I am, she certainly has no business in that office.

[Maedhros]

69. She may very well be as smart as you.

Obviously not as principled, though.

[ctsnowman]

9. Exactly!

[Martin Eden]

10. "why Hillary Clinton voted for the Iraq War Resolution"

Hillary Clinton is too intelligent to be fooled by the Iraq war propaganda that did not fool us here at DU.

I can't claim to know what was inside the head and the heart of Hillary Clinton, but I think she did it primarily for political reasons and there's also a good chance she was on board with the neocon aspirations for Pax Americana.

One thing I do know for certain:
I will never, ever, vote for HC in a Democratic primary or any other candidate who voted for or supported the IWR in October 2002.

Never.

[McCamy Taylor]

13. I believe it was Karl Rove who claimed that Democrats forced W. to invade Iraq.

Good to know that it was Hillary who forced him to invade Iraq and not the entire Democratic Party. I am assuming she did it with her Witch powers, the ones the right wing press is so fond of talking about. If she was determined to waste money in Iraq, I am not suer why she objected to the occupation or voted against the Surge. Do you think it was just more of her diabolic trickiness?

I think she voted for the war because she was the Senator of New York, the state that suffered the most from 9/11 and her constituents wanted her to vote for the war. But maybe that is just what she WANTS me to think.

[Fumesucker]

14. One of the favorite tricks of Republicans is to accuse someone else of what they are doing..

I've got your Karl Rove right here...

[merrily]

68. Not only Republicans, but those who lean right in general.

As for Rove, I think he studied Goebbels among others. And we know he followed the lead of the uber evil Atwater.

[rhett o rick]

46. You are one of the few that try to rationalize HRC's vote to murder innocent Iraqis.

You said: "I think she voted for the war because she was the Senator of New York, the state that suffered the most from 9/11 and her constituents wanted her to vote for the war. " There are two schools of thought as to how a Representative government should work. One school says that the Representative should always vote as constituents wish, whether or not it's the right thing. Very few representatives actually do this and this isn't what the founders had in mind. The other school of thought is that citizens, knowing that they aren't aware of all the facts, elect a representative to do the right thing, whether it is appears popular or not.

The claim that she was only doing what her constituents want doesn't sound like the HRC we all know. Also, that wouldn't fit with her very active promotion of the war. She actually repeated the Bush lies. People listened to her that would not have believed Bush.

Also, she has since admitted she made a mistake. She isn't claiming that she was only doing what her constituents wanted.

[merrily]

56. She said herself that she'd heard from constituents both ways. And she never said that more

requested the war than urged against it. If more had, given the way she voted, why not say so?

Besides, hearing from constituents is not a basis for a war vote either. Waste money in Iraq? Is that how we're going to trivialize what happened as a result of that invasion?

[reddread]

65. New York wanted to hit Iraq as payback for 9/11?

is that actually so?

[Enthusiast]

77. They didn't know any better. Iraq was Muslim. That's all that mattered.

[Cryptoad]

15. Now the Iraq War is Hillary's war?

the Papa Paul Whores are working overtime! Hope Koch has enough to pay them!

[Fumesucker]

17. I love you too...

[merrily]

57. She advocated for it and she voted for it. She owns that, not the entire war. But that more than

suffices. The judgment was horrific from every possible perspective and certainly not a qualification for Commander in Chief.

IMO, your sexist reference does not apply to the ones seeking to hold her accountable for the war, the same way Bushco should have been held accountable. I didn't vote for him either, but enough other people did to return the fucker to office, despite what his invasion of Iraq cost the world.

BTW, AFAIK, the Koch brothers have never paid liberals a cent, but they did donate and participate in the DLC, of which Hillary was a founding member. So, that swipe of yours is a bit of a boomerang.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

62. DU knew the Bush Admin was manipulating intelligence (US and British)...

why didn't Hillary Clinton? DU cried "bullshit!" at Condi and her mushroom cloud... why didn't Hillary? And on and on...

Lie by Lie: A Timeline of How We Got Into Iraq

I live in NC -- DO NOT pull any "Papa Paul Whores" crap on those of us witnessing the destruction of decades of progressive policy thanks to the Koch's, Art Pope, and the GOP-controlled state government. Seriously.

Hillary's a hawk and was WRONG on Iraq, and all the invective you hurl won't change that.

[adieu]

16. I think that a number of legislators

voted for the Iraq War Resolution for political reasons. Many on the GOP side as well.

[rgbecker]

18. Our "Leaders" in the Democratic Party didn't counter the RW propaganda.

My memory is one Republican after another telling how Hussein was Mr. Evil and was connected to 9/11, and "Gassed his own people."

Missing in action was enough reasonableness on the public airwaves explaining the folly of invading another country without provocation. Hell, the NY Times was telling about how we needed to go in. It is missing the story if you don't remember that Hillary was Senator from New York, site of the 9/11 attacks and the perception was that Hussein was in on the deal with WMD ready to hand out to any Terrorist willing to take them. All lies from liars still walking among us today.

That said, I don't think Hillary is going to be standing up to the MIC any time soon and I would vote for most any primary challenger.

[Fumesucker]

19. Is that an admission that Hillary's vote was due to political ambition?

The "perception" was wrong and plenty of people knew it at the time, some of them right here on DU.

[rgbecker]

26. Unfortunately.

It takes more than your usual politician to vote contrary to 75% of your constituents (Except, for some reason, in the case of the NRA and background checks). I'd choose the candidate that takes a stand and follows through over Hillary, who, I'm afraid, like Bill Clinton is just a politician reflecting back what ever the propagandized public wants.

I clearly remember standing on the main street in town with signs suggesting not invading Iraq with 10 or 15 others, while another group, with Viet Nam Vets with unclear memories, stood on the other side screaming insults about being unpatriotic, waving American flag etc.

I couldn't understand how no one on TV was speaking out against the war, or at least, no one was listening. And even to this date, how the Media sees to be filled with those wanting to "Do something" in Syria, Ukraine, Iraq, Yemen....meaning Kill, Kill, Kill.

Missing in action were not Democrats voting against the Iraq resolution, but a network of people to counter the constant propaganda from the Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute, Rush Limbaugh, Howie Carr, and the American Petroleum Institute who seem to get their people on the airwaves and cable TV without much trouble.

[Fumesucker]

28. Isn't that supposed to be Hillary's attraction, she's more than the "usual politician" ?

As pointed out above, a majority of Democrats in Congress didn't vote for the IWR.

[rgbecker]

32. You can vote for her if you want, but I think she is just the usual politician.

In this case playing to AIPAC.

[merrily]

58. Hillary advocated for the war, as well as voting for it,

and, of the others who did vote for it, so far, only Hillary seems to be seeking my vote for Democratic nominee. She will not get it.

I don't know how much that matters because my view is that there will be an anointing, with or without a show of opposition. I think she's the anointee this go round.

[Enthusiast]

78. There seems to be an inordinate number of Viet Nam Vets with unclear memories.

They cling to the idea that Vietnam was fought for our freedom, just like Iraq.

[Half-Century Man]

20. $3,000,000,000,000.00/317,000,000 citizens is $9463.72

How much peace would have been generated by everyone not having to worry about eating or shelter for 10 months?

[DeSwiss]

24. A hell of a lot if it's not spent on drones pointed at you. n/t :-|

[JaneyVee]

42. It's not about giving it to people, its about injecting it into our economy

For that amount we could have fixed our entire infrastructure and paid for millions to go to college.

[Half-Century Man]

43. I was exemplifying the easiest most direct approach.

Just hand it out.

I'll admit it sounds far easier than it would have been to do.

[DeSwiss]

22. Then the people'd find out they could exist without leaders.....

- And then where would we be?

K&R
[center]
[/center]

[mother earth]

23. There is absolutely NO democracy, and NO candidate is worthy of any following, UNTIL they come out

and say the same damn thing this OP is saying.

Why do any of us here think anything will be different in 2016?

We give our money/budget to what we hold dear, and this gov't that has been bought & paid for by an oligarchy that does not support social justice, does not give one thought to income inequality or poverty. Hell, SCOTUS empowers them. What we have is a bunch of liars and pandering solely to appear as though they care. Just look at Congress & what they want to fund, that should tell us all.

And now, we are debating the value of yet another Clinton vs. Bush, after the last Bush lied us into unnecessary war & took us to the brink of economic collapse, which we are still in the midst of, despite the flowery messaging of our four company owned MSM. Have you had enough? Hell, no we are "hopeful" 2016 is going to change things around. Really?

Just look at our guy in the WH, he wants more war privilege, as though what we have here with the Patriot Act, NSA, etc., is not possibly enough. When will the dollar amount be enough for death & destruction? When is this neverending terrorism war going to stop being the money pit of devastation it is?

It's not going to stop until an end is put to this oligarchy, and not one candidate is going to stand up against it. If they do, they won't have a campaign. So get ready for one choice, as bad as the other, or a repeat of slow road vs. fast road, like we had last go around.

Working within a corrupt system is pointless. If you want things to change it won't be by voting for Clinton vs. Bush. Rule of law and accountability have to return...and we have to stop blowing everything into oblivion.

[Enthusiast]

80. Excellent post.

[treestar]

25. Started out as a good question; ended up being used for Hillary bashing

Hillary isn't the only one who voted for the Iraq War Resolution.

Ask Al Qaeda that question, too.

[Stuart G]

27. For a very long time, that has been the saying after my signature...

Stuart G.

[merrily]

66. Yet, Ike sent troops to Lebanon when we had no business being there. Didn't he also say "guns and

butter," meaning the US could afford to fight abroad and be generous domestically, or did someone else characterize the Ike years that way?

(The tax passed to pay for WWII was still in effect.)

After the New Deal, Democrats controlled Congress (almost, but not quite continuously) for so long that I think Republicans felt they needed to go left before their party became extinct entirely. Especially Presidents during their first term (though I don't know when Ike made that comment.)

That's my theory as to why you had Ike saying certain things. and Nixon trying to pass health care, etc. Dunno if it's true or not, but I have to wonder about a man who spent his life in the military saying something like that and meaning it. He and MacArthur were also pretty damned brutal to the Bonus Army.

[Agnosticsherbet]

29. Senate Roll Call: Iraq Resolution

From the Washington Post.

Joe Biden also voted for it. I suppose you disqualify him since he is also considering a run.

Senate Roll Call: Iraq Resolution

Alabama Jeff Sessions (R): Yes Richard Shelby (R): Yes
Alaska Frank Murkowski (R): Yes Ted Stevens (R): Yes
Arizona Jon Kyl (R): Yes John McCain (R): Yes
Arkansas Tim Hutchinson (R): Yes Blanche Lincoln (D): Yes
California Barbara Boxer (D): No Dianne Feinstein (D): Yes
Colorado Wayne Allard (R): Yes Ben Nighthorse Campbell (R): Yes
Connecticut Christopher Dodd (D): Yes Joseph Lieberman (D): Yes
Delaware Joseph Biden (D): Yes Thomas Carper (D): Yes
Florida Bob Graham (D): No Bill Nelson (D): Yes
Georgia Max Cleland (D): Yes Zell Miller (D): Yes
Hawaii Daniel Akaka (D): No Daniel Inouye (D): No
Idaho Larry Craig (R): Yes Mike Crapo (R): Yes
Illinois Richard Durbin (D): No Peter Fitzgerald (R): Yes
Indiana Evan Bayh (D): Yes Richard Lugar (R): Yes
Iowa Charles Grassley (R): Yes Tom Harkin (D): Yes
Kansas Sam Brownback (R): Yes Pat Roberts (R): Yes
Kentucky Jim Bunning (R): Yes Mitch McConnell (R): Yes
Louisiana John Breaux (D): Yes Mary Landrieu (D): Yes
Maine Susan Collins (R): Yes Olympia Snowe (R): Yes
Maryland Barbara Mikulski (D): No Paul Sarbanes (D): No
Massachusetts Edward Kennedy (D): No John Kerry (D): Yes
Michigan Debbie Stabenow (D): No Carl Levin (D): No
Minnesota Mark Dayton (D): No Paul Wellstone (D): No
Mississippi Thad Cochran (R): Yes Trent Lott (R): Yes
Missouri Jean Carnahan (D): Yes Christopher (Kit) Bond (R): Yes
Montana Max Baucus (D): Yes Conrad Burns (R): Yes
Nebraska Chuck Hagel (R): Yes Ben Nelson (D): Yes
Nevada John Ensign (R): Yes Harry Reid (D): Yes
New Hampshire Judd Gregg (R): Yes Bob Smith (R): Yes
New Jersey Jon Corzine (D): No Robert Torricelli (D): Yes
New Mexico Jeff Bingaman (D): No Pete Domenici (R): Yes
New York Hillary Clinton (D): Yes Charles Schumer (D): Yes
North Carolina John Edwards (D): Yes Jesse Helms (R): Yes
North Dakota Kent Conrad (D): No Byron Dorgan (D): Yes
Ohio Mike DeWine (R): Yes George Voinovich (R): Yes
Oklahoma James Inhofe (R): Yes Don Nickles (R): Yes
Oregon Gordon Smith (R): Yes Ron Wyden (D): No
Pennsylvania Rick Santorum (R): Yes Arlen Specter (R): Yes
Rhode Island Lincoln Chafee (R): No Jack Reed (D): No
South Carolina Ernest "Fritz" Hollings (D): Yes Strom Thurmond (R): Yes
South Dakota Thomas Daschle (D): Yes Tim Johnson (D): Yes
Tennessee Bill Frist (R): Yes Fred Thompson (R): Yes
Texas Phil Gramm (R): Yes Kay Bailey Hutchison (R): Yes
Utah Robert Bennett (R): Yes Orrin Hatch (R): Yes
Vermont James Jeffords (I): No Patrick Leahy (D): No
Virginia George Allen (R): Yes John Warner (R): Yes
Washington Maria Cantwell (D): Yes Patty Murray (D): No
West Virginia Robert Byrd (D): No Jay Rockefeller (D): Yes
Wisconsin Russell Feingold (D): No Herb Kohl (D): Yes
Wyoming Mike Enzi (R): Yes Craig Thomas (R): Yes



© 2002 The Washington Post Company

[Fumesucker]

33. Hillary is being touted as the "social justice" candidate

Pointing out how her vote was for wasting a mind boggling sum of money that could have otherwise gone to more productive efforts leading to increased social justice is wrong why?

[ND-Dem]

34. always interesting to me how supposedly liberal dem state senators split their votes, effectively

cancelling each other out. For the war, it generally didn't do much good to elect solid democratic slates.

Yes/No (6)

Washington Maria Cantwell (D): Yes Patty Murray (D): No
West Virginia Robert Byrd (D): No Jay Rockefeller (D): Yes
North Dakota Kent Conrad (D): No Byron Dorgan (D): Yes
New Jersey Jon Corzine (D): No Robert Torricelli (D): Yes
Massachusetts Edward Kennedy (D): No John Kerry (D): Yes
California Barbara Boxer (D): No Dianne Feinstein (D): Yes


Yes/Yes (6)

South Dakota Thomas Daschle (D): Yes Tim Johnson (D): Yes
New York Hillary Clinton (D): Yes Charles Schumer (D): Yes
Louisiana John Breaux (D): Yes Mary Landrieu (D): Yes
Connecticut Christopher Dodd (D): Yes Joseph Lieberman (D): Yes
Delaware Joseph Biden (D): Yes Thomas Carper (D): Yes
Georgia Max Cleland (D): Yes Zell Miller (D): Yes

No/No (5)

Michigan Debbie Stabenow (D): No Carl Levin (D): No
Minnesota Mark Dayton (D): No Paul Wellstone (D): No
Maryland Barbara Mikulski (D): No Paul Sarbanes (D): No
Florida Bob Graham (D): No Bill Nelson (D): Yes
Hawaii Daniel Akaka (D): No Daniel Inouye (D): No

[Agnosticsherbet]

37. Is it possible that each of them decided individually on the issue?

You appear to imply that they are involved in a conspiracy of some kind.

[ND-Dem]

38. some of the state pairs appear to trade off on the controversial votes. just something i've

noticed.

[Agnosticsherbet]

40. Appearances and reality are not the same thing.

I've noticed that.

Now, Senators and Congressmen do trade votes and vote for political reasons at times.

Sometimes a stand is so unpopular or so popular that even if the representative disagrees, voting against it is just creating a campaign ad for the opponent in the next election.

I think if you look at individual states and could go back and look at state polls you would be better able to decide who voted for or against any particular bill.

[whereisjustice]

30. Hard Choices - fuck the country now with political expediency so you can survive to fuck the country

later as president.

[ND-Dem]

31. "the eventual cost of the Iraq war will be over three trillion dollars." I seem to recall that at

the time it was billed as 'get in, get out, very cheap'. I think there was an exact dollar figure and it wasn't even near 1 trillion.

[bvar22]

49. "The OIL will pay for the war."

We were told this lie many times by the Republican Leadership.
With the next breath, they told us we weren't going to Iraq for the OIL.

[ND-Dem]

50. thanks for the reminder. i'd forgotten that.

[merrily]

59. When asked about cost on one of the talking head shows, Cheney said we might even make money, given

Iraq's oil.

Anyone who did not see through the shit they were shoveling should not be President. Even less entitled to be President is someone who saw through it and advocated for the invasion anyway.

[rgbecker]

35. Very cheap!

Here's from the NY Times. The nation's premier Newspaper.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/31/us/threats-responses-cost-white-house-cuts-estimate-cost-war-with-iraq.html

[ND-Dem]

39. huh?

December 31, 2002

WASHINGTON, Dec. 30— The administration's top budget official estimated today that the cost of a war with Iraq could be in the range of $50 billion to $60 billion, a figure that is well below earlier estimates from White House officials.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/31/us/threats-responses-cost-white-house-cuts-estimate-cost-war-with-iraq.html

As U.S. News' James Pethokoukis and Matthew Benjamin document below, lawmakers vastly underestimated the conflict's price tag.

"[Congressional Budget Office] estimates a price tag of $14 billion for the war itself and $8 billion to $10 billion a month, for an unspecified period, after hostilities cease," Pethokoukis and Benjamin wrote in 2003.

The Bush administration estimated the war would cost $50 to $60 billion, including the costs of reconstruction and clean up. As of 2013, the Cost of War Project estimates the war has cost $1.7 trillion—nearly 30 times the pre-war estimate. That cost doesn't factor in future costs of veterans' care, which push the total to more than $2.1 trillion. The Veterans Administration spending related to Iraq—which totals $45 billion—is almost as much as the Bush administration's overall cost estimate.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/press-past/2013/03/20/the-underestimated-costs-and-price-tag-of-the-iraq-war

[rgbecker]

41. Seems they thought it was going to be cheap.

They were off by 5000%.

Fucking idiots. Let's invade a foreign country without provocation because we know they will love us and shower our troops with flowers. Because...Freedom!

We'll be in Iran before Hillary's second year in. Hold on to your hats.

[merrily]

60. Oh, way better than merely cheap. Iraq oil would pay for it and maybe more than pay for it.

[woo me with science]

36. K&R What utter garbage we are fed by the corporate propaganda machine.

Pretty words about equality despite looting of the treasury for war and corporate crushing of the economic and democratic structures that ALL OF HISTORY shows us are necessary to empower disadvantaged groups.

Where are all these nations in which deliberate embrace of policies that dismantle democracy, implement authoritarian rule, and create vast inequality and perpetual war have led to the long-awaited empowerment of vulnerable groups?

When have these things EVER gone together?

[Bluenorthwest]

45. Social justice is not a commodity, it's not for sale.

It is not a binary choice. America at its most prosperous was not in fact a more just and equal America. Some of the wealthiest nations treat women as property and execute their LGBT neighbors.
So as much as you'd like to make everything about money, everything is not about money. All the money in the world would not be enough to please the bigoted straights.

[merrily]

64. The Iraq War was far from about only money. I hope with all my heart that

a primary candidate comes forward who you feel comfortable voting for on social issues and who is not Hillary.

[Fumesucker]

73. This is America, the land of Mad Men, everything is a product to be bought and sold

That's a flip answer but there's more than a little truth in it. As for social justice Eisenhower didn't discriminate between white or black or male or female or gay or straight in that quote I put in the OP, theft under false pretenses is not justice of any sort and I'm describing something that most of us agree took place under false pretenses.

I don't really want to argue with you, I agree with you on so many things. You seem angry a lot and I can't say I blame you, sometimes what I see going on makes me angry too but I try not to take it out on others who aren't responsible for it.

By no means am I saying it *has* to be an either-or situation, I'm describing the choices actually being offered as I see it, if that offends you it's not intentional on my part. As I already said in another thread, I'm not the best writer and I don't write OPs very often because I know it, please excuse my inelegant phrasing of what I'm trying to convey.

[Octafish]

55. You could desalinate California.

As for the war vote, she's a politician and expected to be Madame War President for the last six years.

[Karmadillo]

71. Paradise Stolen.

Eisenhower was right. War is theft.

[sulphurdunn]

72. Hillary Clinton

would vote for WWIII if she thought it would put her in the White House, and so would any other presidential frontrunners from either party. That's how they get the money to be frontrunners.

[Enthusiast]

74. Three trillion is cheap considering how safe the Iraq War made us.

And we now have freedoms coming out our ears. [URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

We didn't have to fight them here because the heroes stepped up and fought them over there.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[raouldukelives]

87. So much freedom you can feel an amazing jolt of electrical energy when you exercise them.

Sorry Officer. Won't happen again.

[Enthusiast]

88. Yeah.

[JDPriestly]

81. K&R.

[blkmusclmachine]

84. Hillary, the war hawk.

[nationalize the fed]

85. more than $10 MILLION DOLLARS PER HOUR

Just on the wars since 2001



Source of numbers: http://costofwar.com

Think about that. In 10 hours that's > $100 million dollars. 240 million per day. In ~4 days that's a BILLION DOLLARS. Add $8 MILLION DOLLARS PER HOUR for "homeland security". That almost doubles the totals. 2 BILLION DOLLARS in 2 DAYS! Its the biggest ripoff in history. Right in front of everyone's face. Obscene.

The people and the nation have been looted by a bunch of scam artists, liars crooks and thieves. And none of them will ever have to pay for what they've done to the next generations.