If you're explaining that it's justified that women or African Americans are lower paid than...

[CreekDog]

White males, and giving all sorts of reasons why it's okay or acceptable...

You're doing it wrong.

[Pacifist Patriot]

1. Thoroughly depressing that this even needs to be said.

[salin]

2. General observation, or response to something here on DU?

hoping its the first, and yes, I agree.

If it's the latter - yikes. Where?

[Gormy Cuss]

4. Patricia Arquette at the Oscars.

So both general observation of responses to her comments and some things said here on DU.

[salin]

5. Thanks. I figured Arquette.

hadn't yet checked out the DU responses. Because... well I assumed what Creekdog said.

[pnwmom]

32. Here, too. A poster here informed me today

that if women worked as hard or as long hours as men, they would make the same pay.

And when I pointed out that leaked documents showed that Jennifer Lawrence, by far the most bankable star, made significantly less than the male leads in "American Hustle," he blamed that on her agent.

So it's always either the woman's fault, or her agent's.

[salin]

39. Bleach on that!

Thanks for the example.

[justiceischeap]

3. It always seems to come down to

Us women having the good fortune to birth babies. I've never had a child yet somehow that's what people tell me when a discussion about income equality comes up.

[jeff47]

6. Well, you could. Jesus is supposed to come back sometime.

You're walking along and next thing you know, *poof* you're pregnant.

( )

[justiceischeap]

42. If Jesus inseminated me, most Christians would proclaim the child the anti-Christ

because I happen to also be a lesbian.

[awoke_in_2003]

44. god works in mysterious ways

[valerief]

13. It's only considered special because she might birth a boy. nt

[B2G]

7. Who exactly is doing that here? nt

[Gormy Cuss]

11. Look in this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6266474

[B2G]

12. Yeah, I know. I started it.

I see one poster saying pay is equal. Out of 90 responses, and he was soundly spanked.

But I guess we'll never know what my dear friend Creekdog was referring to, since he deleted his reply and has left his thread.

[CreekDog]

18. I haven't left

I've read the replies to my OP.

[B2G]

19. Well good on you!

[Gormy Cuss]

20. There are at least two by my count. n/t

[B2G]

22. There's always a few in every bunch. nt

[Gormy Cuss]

23. Yep, which is why the OP's point is relevant. n/t

[CreekDog]

24. The question was not limited to DU

the point I was making was not limited to DU.

[KeepItReal]

9. Oh, you mean like Sony Picture's female executive did?

Outgoing Sony Pictures executive Amy Pascal says it’s because women are not asking for enough money.

“I run a business. People want to work for less money, I’ll pay them less money. I don’t call them up and go, can I give you some more?” Pascal said at the Women in the World event last night in San Francisco, where she was interviewed onstage by Tina Brown.

Women shouldn’t work for less money, she said. “They have to walk away. People shouldn’t be so grateful for jobs.”

http://www.msnbc.com/now/watch/why-are-women-in-hollywood-paid-less-than-men--398211139731

[Romeo.lima333]

16. actors have agents that work that stuff out for them dont they?

[KeepItReal]

43. Agents want to get the highest $$ possible. They just don't know the pay of everyone.

The studio is not obligated to tell one actor another actor's salary.

That's what makes this Sony exec so reprehensible. She knows the actresses are getting paid less, but thinks they need to be more adamant about asking for more money.

If you don't know the max pay they would actually be willing to give you, how can you ask for it?

[Romeo.lima333]

47. like any negotiation you start higher than u think the other side is willing to go

at the time of signing she may have been very happy with her contract it's not sony's job to make sure everyone's pay is even.

[madville]

10. Everywhere I have worked

There were pay scales and everyone made the same based on the position and/or years of service.


Are we talking about comparisons to the exact same positions or just in general or on average?

What pay disparity angle are we talking about here? There are many different angles to it.

Are we talking about men, on average, working more hours than women in hourly positions?

Are we talking about unpaid maternity leave?

Are we talking about African-Americans and secondary education rates(degree holders typically are higher earners)? Or due to law enforcement's bias against them, African-Americans having higher rates of arrest and incarceration, which hurts them in the job market?

There are many causes within the pay disparity issue, each needs to be recognized and dealt with if the problem is ever going to be addressed.

[Mr.Bill]

14. Excellemt post.

Saying simply "Equal pay for women" dumbs down a very complex issue.

[jeff47]

15. Your experience is very much in the minority.

Strict pay scales are very unusual. In the vast majority of cases, there is either no pay scale, or the pay scale gives management "wiggle room" to pay some employees more than others. For example, the federal government's pay scales allow management to pay some employees more than others for the same position and years of experience.

In addition, there are many fields where you can not measure pay based on years of service. For example, a software developer with 20 years of experience is not necessarily as valuable as one with 5 years experience. It matters what technologies that experience is in.

Or for the subject at hand, you can't say an actor with 5 years experience is worth X, while an actor with 20 years experience is worth Y.

[madville]

29. I've worked for the federal government

both in the military and in civil service. The pay scales and locality tables were strictly defined. I've never heard of someone working off the pay scale in the federal government. If you are a GS-11 Step 5 and the locality pay is 14.1% that's what you get, the manager can't say "Give Smith $10,000 more a year, he's a swell guy". The GS scale has 10 defined steps that are based on time in service, the WG/WS scales have 5 steps. Managers do have the option to put employees in for performance awards that can either be monetary or award leave days.

I believe the wiggle room your are referring to is when the federal employee is hired. If the employee can provide documented experience showing their previous or current job's pay is at a certain level they can sometimes be brought in at an equivalent step to match the level they are currently at. Example: A female college grad with no experience comes in at GS-9 Step 1 which might be $23 an hour. A male with 10 years experience gets hired at GS-9 Step 5 because his previous/current job pays him $26 an hour and that's what that equates to. In that instance that is a sound practice and the genders could easily be reversed. Sure it's a disparity but it's not based on gender, it's based on current/previous pay and experience.

We are agreeing in a way. It is such a complex issue that there isn't an across the board fix, it's 100 different issues all in play at the same time.

My other experience was in a union printing house, the positions paid a defined hourly rate, a person there 1 year made the same as someone there 20 years if they did the same job.

[jeff47]

34. Take a closer look at that schedule.

Each spot on the schedule does not have to have a single hourly rate. Sometimes they'll have a range. Also, that "previous experience" you cite is evaluated by management, and it can come in as "Step 4" or "Step 5".

And that's not even getting to the alternative pay schedules. Those abound in technical government jobs.

Union shops are about the only places where you have actual strict (and public) pay scales.

[madville]

35. It's a single hourly rate at each grade and step

http://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/salary-tables/pdf/2015/RUS_h.pdf

Looks like a single hourly rate to me. I and everyone I've known gets paid according to the table.

[jeff47]

36. The hourly variations and alternative schedules abound in technical government jobs.

As does rating someone above what the GS says they should be rated.

[JustAnotherGen]

28. Do you work in Government? Education?

Those are the only places I've ever heard of with pay scales. Education is notorious for that - most public sector union jobs are - aren't they?

[madville]

31. Government and Union environments mainly

But from my time in the private sector, I negotiated my pay and would renegotiate if I felt my role had changed to merit more. I usually made more than my coworkers because I demanded more and they deemed I was worth it. I've seen people work somewhere for years and never get a raise because they never ask and maybe didn't have the confidence to ask, the employer isn't going to offer it if they can keep you for less, that's not how for-profit businesses work.

[JustAnotherGen]

41. In my case I demanded

The Finance organization saw the huge PR disaster when they dove into my salary history. They reset my salary and met my demands.

And the woman who oversaw my departure from the one marketing group to the other was fired several years ago. There were too many incidents where she allowed that to happen.

I'm the highest paid for my "title" in the Finance org of a telecom with just about 150k employees right now. With net neutrality coming there were massive layoffs this month and more in the pipeline. Because of my niche I will be fine. I predict the 8 that came through that Directors House of Horrors will be there till the end.

[Nye Bevan]

45. You're not aware that the military has a pay scale? (nt)

[JustAnotherGen]

46. Of course I am - is the FONT I'm talking with military? n/t

[el_bryanto]

17. Are there examples of people doing that on DU?

If so; yes, terrible depressing it needs to be said.

Bryant

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

21. Or, doing it right,

if you're a RW sock-puppet or spreading their messages for free because you agree with them.

[abelenkpe]

25. The oneS that gets me:

"It's their own fault."
"They should know better."
"I haven't seen that happen" therefore it doesn't happen.

Why are people so cruel and willfully blind sometimes?

[Capt. Obvious]

26. Cyanide And Happiness

[pansypoo53219]

27. i am still waiting for my female discount for gas and EVERYTHING. it's like men get an automatic 20%

[JDPriestly]

30. And I wonder how the incomes of African American women compare with those of other women.

Also I wonder how the incomes of Spanish-speaking women compare with other women.

Basically, being a woman means you have a lower chance of getting better pay and an even lower chance of being promoted. Oh, unless you are in human resources. Somehow, men view women as good to change the diapers on employees who mess things up. Oh, and women can plan the company picnic. It's really disgusting. Stereotyping.

Law firms should be leading on this, shouldn't they? After all, they should understand discrimination law better than other employers. But . . .

"The percentage of women associates (lawyers who aren't partners but could become partners) fell from 45.66 in 2009 to 44.79 in 2013, but rebounded slightly to 44.94 in 2014, NALP found. Similarly, the percentage of minority women associates increased from 11.29 in 2013 to 11.51 in 2014.

"Overall, minority associates have seen small gains each year since 2010, but 2014 brought the single largest annual increase. Minorities represented 20.93 percent of all associates in 2013 and 21.63 in 2014.

. . . .

"The percentage of women partners increased from 20.22 to 21.05 in 2014. Minority women also saw gains, rising from 2.26 of all partners to 2.45. Overall, the percentage of minority partners grew from 7.10 in 2013 to 7.33 in 2014.

http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202718075884/US-Law-Firms-Slowly-Growing-More-Diverse-Survey-Shows?slreturn=20150123155356

That's pitiful. Horrible. Shameful. Inexcusable.

[madville]

33. That's pretty in line with lawyer demographics from the ABA

88% of lawyers are non-Hispanic Whites and 70% of lawyers are males. If minorities represented 20% of associates like you posted but overall minorities only account for 12% of all lawyers, that would indicate the are over-performing, would it not?

The first answer to that problem is to increase law school enrollment of female and minority students because if they don't exist in the first place how can the law firms hire them?

[JDPriestly]

37. Do you have link for your numbers?

I'm in California. The numbers are different here.

"The percentage of women associates (is) 44.94 in 2014 . . . ."

"The percentage of women partners (was) 21.05 in 2014."


http://www.nationallawjournal.com/id=1202718075884/US-Law-Firms-Slowly-Growing-More-Diverse-Survey-Shows?slreturn=20150123155356

The percentage of women partners should shadow or be closer to the percentage of women associates. It could reasonably be somewhat lower, but not only one half of the number of partners. Women have been attending law schools in large numbers for decades. There is no excuse for the disparity in these numbers.

[madville]

38. Right here

http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/migrated/marketresearch/PublicDocuments/lawyer_demographics_2012_revised.authcheckdam.pdf

It makes sense that there are less women in partner positions than associate positions. 62% of lawyer are over age 45, only 20% of lawyers in 1991 were female which matches the partner numbers in your article. I would guess that most associates eligible to make partner are going to be older. It seems like a given that it will take time for the increased percentage of female associates to cycle up into partner positions.

[JDPriestly]

40. Doesn'y it usually take avouy 7 years?

It's the gender of the 2006 or 2007 graduates compared to partners in that age range that should be compared. I could be wrong but I think it is still tough for women.