General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsYour thoughts on the philosophy of Anarchism...
Good, bad, meh?
Hegel to Bakunin to Marx to Chomsky to Goldman to...
Your thoughts?
Remember Me
(1,532 posts)you're likely to get a lot of answers that don't mean much and are worth nothing unless you offer either a description yourself or a really good link.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Anarchism is generally defined as the political philosophy which holds the state to be undesirable, unnecessary, and harmful.
My Bias?
I'm a Socialist who sees some very positive aspects about Anarchist Theory. One rule does not fit all...
mike_c
(36,269 posts)A socialist anarchy is pretty much the definition of the most benign and progressive means for people to live together. I personally believe that it's altogether impossible, too. But I'll take a socialist state until we evolve sufficiently to not need it.
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)The idea of an anarchic state, where there's no government because there's no need for it, is lovely.
The practice would be basically all the worst qualities of savagery, mob rule, and fascism.
Small doses of anti-authoritarianism are good. But it's like salt. Too much will ruin the dish and make you sick, and you get Ron Paul type "libertarianism."
WonderGrunion
(2,995 posts)My bias?
I see an American state, led by Democrats, that stopped the march of fascism, that stared down missiles in Cuba and ended Osama bin Laden's ability to finance terror assaults against the United States. The state is the only entity with the power to break monopolies, to protect the rights of unions, to correct the inequalities of bigotry, racism and sexism.
In an anarchist state it is simply too easy for someone to pay half of the poor to kill the other half of the poor.
FarLeftFist
(6,161 posts)Not sure about the complete theory of it but I can sometimes let my mind wander into what kind of world it would be.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)two is definitely critical mass in a group of anarchists
Countdown_3_2_1
(878 posts)OWS is peaceful.
Anarchy is vandalism, and invites a forceful police response. The anarchists break laws and melt into a larger protest to hide. This makes them part of the protest, and the protest an accessory to their crimes. The police see no difference between anarchists and protesters.
To me, anarchists are less interested in a cause and more interested in excuses for mayhem.
anarchists bring only trouble to peaceful protests and offer nothing in exchange. They need to act on their own and face the consequences alone.
I don't want to see innocents pepper-sprayed because of anarchist cowards hiding in a crowd.
themadstork
(899 posts)Why do people feel compelled to hold forth on subjects they know nothing about?
Taverner
(55,476 posts)OWS is not anarchy
But OWS borrows its philosophy from socialist, anarchism, democracy, demarchy, communism, capitalism, egalitarianism, republicanism and critical theory. This is a good thing
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Those violent people are not Anarchists, they are police infiltrators who start a riot so the pigs have an excuse to attack protestors
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)They're a distinctly different group than anarchists.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)Such as Anonymous, who are basically left libertarians.
It sure as heck isn't a statist, pro-central government movement.
The basic thesis of left libertarianism is that the bigger centralized gov't gets the more in bed it gets with the financial institutions it was created to regulate. This is seen, e.g. in the statements that expansion of central authority is needed to PRESERVE the corporate system and protect it from the unrest that would follow deregulation and market instability.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)Selatius
(20,441 posts)The fact that protesters gather almost daily and call for the convening of a General Assembly whereby members of the assembly propose rules or propositions, propose amendments to those rules or propositions, debate those rules and propositions, and finally vote to approve those rules or propositions outside the purview of any city council or police authority or any entity of the state is an example of anarchism, a form of self-governance outside any control of formal state organs of power. The nature of the propositions coming out of these assemblies also plainly shows them to be left-wingers to varying degrees.
People who regularly confuse the historical tendencies of anarchism with simple chaos are confusing anarchism and anomie. It is pretty distressing seeing this mistake made over and over again.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)And what if the Majority opinion is incorrect?
Selatius
(20,441 posts)This is exactly why these assemblies are so time consuming. It takes a lot of time to get up to 60 or 70% approval for any proposition being debated. From what I've seen, none of them are down for the Bush method of deciding things, which is simply get 51% of the vote and then assume that's a mandate to ram whatever through the assembly.
brooklynite
(94,333 posts)...The "Occupy" Assemblies are an example of a group, but not a community. No different than a meeting of any non-profit group, if perhaps a bit less efficient. They are not, however, a substitute for "any city council or police authority or any entity of the state", because they do not carry with them the authority of the greater community to enforce decisions. If someone is a disruptive force, the Community can ignore them, but it cannot penalize their behavior because it lacks either the power or authority to do so. While, academically speaking, an Assembly of the entire community could delegate such authority, it's completely unrealistic because of the difficulties engaged in getting the entire communities agreement in an "anyone can participate in decision-making" process. This is why elected councils and elected officials evolved into our political system.
AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)anarchism is a response to a corrupt state, but the state, in and of itself, does not necessarilly need to be corrupt. The term "self-governance" implies that a particular form of governance is desired: in this case, that of a true democracy. As I argue elsewhere, I believe we are battling anarcho-capitalism, a form of anarchy where those who possess all the wealth have simply had it with democracy and desire to establish something else.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)they do work, and sometimes they work beautifully, but:
1. The population of the group must be small or (if inevitably large for some reason) composed of a larger group divided into smallish sub-groups, 15-20 is best,
2. The fact that leadership of some kind will always emerge somehow must be understood and related to properly by all concerned,
3. If there is a set of binding beliefs or value structures ("anarchy" itself is not enough) that everyone's on the same page with within the anarchic community it's *vastly* more effective and easier to live in,
4. There can be no assholes.
It's point 4. that really kills anarchy. Otherwise it's lovely.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)What is your way???
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)So I'm only involved in so-called "non-heirarchical" (I prefer the term collectively run, which has
some positive non-leftist connotations) projects at a local level. Generally speaking, it is like any
other system of self-organization. Just, you know, not top-down.
They are all prone to abuse by assholes. In fact, the person who said that it works great until you get
2 or more people together was being overly specific. This is true of human society in general; that's the problem.
Don't forget that anarcho-utopians existed before the hard left came along and made it seem all ooo scary.
It wasn't supposed to be a left-right thing; that's a gloss applied by the major political parties over
direction they want to see the gov't. Of course when you look at party alignment, "left" libertarians
are naturally aligned with the left these days, but I prefer to associate with populism, especially since
I'm a spiritual person and most folks on the hard left are anti-religious.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Granted, that is an oversimplification. Often times the assholes band together in a confederacy of dunces, and strong-arm their bullying over everyone.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Ursula Le Guin.
Edweird
(8,570 posts)Romulox
(25,960 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)AntiFascist
(12,792 posts)FarLeftFist
(6,161 posts)joshcryer
(62,265 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Though I do not advocate the abolition of the state, I think the state is more often than not a tool of the ruling class.
bhikkhu
(10,711 posts)...come to think of it, even chimpanzees have little use for anarchy in their societies. We have laws, we have customs, traditions, guidelines, expectations, and so forth. Imagining that things would improve if we did not is a mistake. Back in 1900 or so there was such a problem with inequality that the rule of law and government itself was seen as "the problem", but we have come a long way since then.
If inequality is the problem, the answer is good government, not no government. Anarchy ignores human nature, and fails miserably in the real world. Not to dismiss or disrespect the good intentions of writers long passed, but I think it is almost always a mistake to look to the old dead to solve our current problems. Circumstances change, and their thinking cannot.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)Left-libertarians rely on customs, traditions, and social institutions in place of the State. That's the whole point.
Occupy is an example of a self-governing social institution.
Obviously there are many anarcho-punks who casually subscribe to nihilist notions. These people are silly and
make it difficult to have a reasonable discussion about the issue. (e.g. groups like Crimethnc that publish tracts
in lefty bookstores about abolishing all institutions and belief systems). They are silly.
Jeffersonian democrat (small d) vs. Anarchist
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)i.e. direct rule by the people -- not really anarchism but
only a couple steps above it in terms of how its supposedly run.
Of course, "we live in a democracy not a republic" precisely because small-d democracy
is considered by opinion-makers to be either anarchy or mob rule, depending on how it's enforced.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)That assumes Zerzan's idiotic view that pre-history = anarchy, which is bullshit. Almost every mammalian society has packs and hierarchies. Even Kropotkin doesn't go so far to suggest that animal societies are themselves anarchistic, in Mutual Aid. Kropotkin's observations are interspecific as opposed to intraspecific and he lays the basis for anarchism through interspecific cooperative relationships that exist in nature.
As Asimov says, "Specialization is for insects."
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-Robert A. Heinlein
Anarchy as a concept is for children...
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)Cid_B
(3,102 posts)... does not exclude one from possessing other skills.
Are you claiming that writing was the only thing he could do? Also, if it is true, he still needed a plethora of skills to have the knowledge base to write how he did.
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)He specialized in writing speculative fiction.
If you are claiming that one needs knowledge of what *might* transpire in a created future of his own design is a knowledge base, then I cannot change your mind.
malthaussen
(17,175 posts)As for RAH, he was a naval cadet, a naval officer, an engineer, a novelist, a pundit, a husband, a fencer, and probably many other things. As are most human beings. I've always considered that the quote cited was really just Heinlein channeling Terence.
-- Mal
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)Been falsely assuming Asimov for years.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)In short, anarchy is absurd. The only people who are for it seem to be the people who think they can rise up above everyone else if given the opportunity--fairly similar to libertarians now that I think of it.
Leopolds Ghost
(12,875 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)Could you elaborate?
Fearless
(18,421 posts)The "public" and the "state" are two that are common today. The Church was common in place of the state hundreds of years ago. (A vast improvement regardless of if you approve of the state at all!) Each group serves as a counterbalance of power to the other, or at least should in a properly working system. If you have to much power in the state you get authoritarianism or communism. If you get too much power in the public then you get rampant abuses by those who have the resources to become more powerful than other members of the public.
There needs to be a balance between the two. One needs to check the other's power evenly. We as a society have not yet figured how to do this properly. What is needed is little tweaks, not systemic overhaul. We need to find a way to ensure that the state doesn't trounce public opinion but that the public opinion doesn't run rampant hurting other people in society.
On review, the graph lines should be inverted... concave instead of convex... but I'm not making a new graphic now. Lol. Essentially between the two economic models, the polar opposites are communism and capitalism... rule by state and rule by free market. The potential for injustice rises as the existence of autonomous regulation (checks and balances to power) decrease. Autonomous regulation decreases the further unbalanced power is held between the state and the public.
Selatius
(20,441 posts)Mainly, with the left you have authoritarian leftism and libertarian leftism. On the right, you have authoritarian rightism and libertarian rightism.
Sure, Gandhi was very far left on economic issues, but nobody serious would say he would use the same methods as another far leftist, Joseph Stalin, to achieve the same goal.
The same could be said of Adolf Hitler and Augusto Pinochet. Unlike Pinochet, Hitler's economic policies were pretty centrist with elements of leftism and rightism incorporated, while Pinochet's economic policies were hailed by the far-right as the model to emulate, going so far right as to privatize the nation's Social Security system entirely and advocating total deregulation of the markets in true law-of-the-jungle capitalism, yet in common parlance both are considered right-wingers because both advocate capitalism. It's just that Pinochet advocates totally pure capitalism.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)From left to right.
Selatius
(20,441 posts)The idea of a free market is taken as a truism in too many circles, yet the US is an example of anything but free market capitalism. In many markets in the US, oligopolies and outright monopolies exist. There's very little competition. Health care is one of the worst examples of this. Lack of competition is why health care premiums rise at astonishing levels. Worse yet, they tend to lobby Congress to keep things that way with the amount of wealth they've accrued. The problem--I believe--is capitalists are mixing the power of the state and the power of private capital in something that can only be described as corporatism, not that there is an issue of too much public control. I guess the main point is you can have capitalism without a free market.
themadstork
(899 posts)Fearless
(18,421 posts)themadstork
(899 posts)as far as that goes. I'm not trying to win a debate, merely signaling that you (like many on this thread) haven't really done your homework, and you're running roughshod over the concepts you purport to explain.
but really, i'm not sure it matters. i don't have the time or energy to offer my own little breakdown of where i think you erred and where you would benefit from further research, so maybe i should just shut up, eh. sorry.
Selatius
(20,441 posts)You elect a Congress to represent you. They writes the laws, and the President signs them into law or vetoes them.
An anarchist would propose several things to that arrangement. Mainly, he would propose ways to decentralize that power, as opposed to centralizing that power. He may propose the ability to recall the legislator or President if the people wish to exercise that authority. He may propose the ability to call a referendum on an act of Congress. He may even propose the ability to pass laws through an initiative process despite what Congress would say. All of these proposals serve to decentralize power and give some of it back to people.
Somebody who has studied anarchism would not support the absence of any rules. They merely support the decentralization of rule-making power and the over-turning of rules derived from excessive centralization of rule-making power. Anybody else who advocates nothing short of chaos is silly, not to be taken seriously, and likely ignorant of the history of left-wing anarchism.
They are advocating anomie, not anarchism.
Whereas a state socialist would say that it is best if the government established a single health insurance entity owned by the state to give everybody affordable health care without tacking on a profit mark-up like a private entity, a left-wing anarchist would likely propose the establishment of a health insurance co-op, also non-profit, as an alternative to for-profit health insurance. Provided the health insurance co-op becomes large enough to provide economies of scale to its participants, both avenues would achieve the twin objectives of removing the profit mark-ups on the costs and also providing wider coverage than previous. Admittedly, a single national health insurance co-op would be harder to establish than single-payer health care in a functioning republic, but I wouldn't exactly call the US functional the way the Founders had anticipated.
Daily examples of socialism outside the government proper would be a credit union, essentially a bank owned by its depositors, or a labor co-op, a business enterprise owned by its respective employees. These are pretty common examples of socialism that people don't recognize as "socialism" in the traditional sense.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)maybe the thing to do is not think in terms of labels or systems or 'who is going to be in charge, if anyone, and who is going to control this and that and the other', but to think about different ways to look at, frame and structure the consensual universal agreement ---the 'deal', if you will--- in completely new ways that haven't been formulated or tried previously.
I think OWS was going for that, to a certain extent, and it was sort of neat to watch.
blindpig
(11,292 posts)While the end goal is the same as communism the method for getting there won't cut the mustard.
Bakunin was a great revolutionary but a poor theorist.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)jwirr
(39,215 posts)the weaker members. Not so different than what we have going today.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Even your most die-hard Anarchist would argue that collapse of government with no plans for transition would be a bad thing
jwirr
(39,215 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Just thought I'd add those two.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,265 posts)needs to spell out what their thoughts on tax are, and on the services that a socialist would want provided for by state-levied taxes (health, a welfare net, perhaps housing ...)
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Bakunin's thoughts on collectivization are more fleshed out than Marx's - and in my opinion more organic.
Also I do think Social Anarchism is a good thing - that is, authority is earned, not simply given by fiat.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)You can have social services provided by collectives and communities that are free.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,265 posts)That, for instance, would mean you need someone who will supply you fuel for free - or solar panels, wind turbines etc. The stretch of this stateless area would have to be very large, with a huge number of people deciding this is the better way to live, and being able to keep up the level of production to supply all needs in the area. I think the human race is far from being so altruistic - look at the level which is now anarchistic, ie between countries. Despite the obvious imbalances, transfers of aid between countries are still pretty small, and people are happy with that.
I really think that we are nowhere near a level of population and production that some form of state isn't vital for sorting out the community's priorities.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)so speaking for myself: as I do not think radical revolutionary transformation of society is a productive approach to achieving the goals of libertarian socialism, my view is that if tomorrow the libertarian socialists were 'in charge', nothing much at all would change. At least not initially. Initially we would be enabling people at the local level to take control of their own lives through the creation of grass roots democratic institutions in the workplace, in the neighborhood, at every level of social interaction. The goal is to build a voluntary cooperative and sustainable world economy, but that is a long term goal. In the short term it is important to evolve the current social institutions in that direction rather than fall into the pitfall of romantic revolutionary destruction and the nightmare of authoritarianism that is the inevitable consequence. In other words for quite some time there would still be taxes, money, state socialism and state capitalism.
saras
(6,670 posts)...with education, anarchy (i.e. a functioning technological society with justice, and without a government) MIGHT be possible. For late twentieth-century Americans, not a chance.
Chichiri
(4,667 posts)Which makes them more consistent, if nothing else.
RevStPatrick
(2,208 posts)...if we were a different species.
Unfortunately, we are Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
Not a very sapient species, if you ask me...
BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts)becomes largely obsolete with industrialization and the withering-away of feudalism. so certain aspects of anarchism could definitely be integrated into the broader revolutionary communist programme of countries where feudalism still exists. but i dont have any idea whether communism or anarchism is better for so-called postindustrial societies like ours.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)They ran the free cities of spain under anarchist principals and demonstrated the viability of doing so even under the direst of circumstances.
BOG PERSON
(2,916 posts)that doesn't sound very "free" or "principaled" to me.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)However your new complaint is different than your prior one, that anarchism is agrarian only. So how about first we settle that issue, based on the facts at hand, and then we can move on to your new complaint. Okay?
izquierdista
(11,689 posts)I'd rather go do my own thing. Bye.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Until and unless a dynamic and sustainable culture illustrates that it can work for, defend and assist its people, it, like libertarianism is little more than an academic exercise.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)most people would pee in their own drinking water if they 'ruled' themselves.
Yeah, I'm cynical, but optimistic that perhaps humanity will evolve to the point where Anarchy (self rule) is possible.
Capitalocracy
(4,307 posts)where essentially the government can make rules, but like the justice system, the state has the burden to prove those rules are necessary and appropriate. I like that concept.
Puregonzo1188
(1,948 posts)the Industrial Workers of the World being the most prominent example of that I can think of.
That being said I still classify myself as a Marxist.
arely staircase
(12,482 posts)But operating in our restrictive political system I look for the policies that spread and devolve power - ie I back a government run health system because it removes power from a handful of corporations and puts into the hands of an entity that can represent the people - once we get federally funded elections.
T S Justly
(884 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)As far as anarchism itself, I respectfully disagree with them - I don't think society can function well without government - the asshole problem is too great.
WonderGrunion
(2,995 posts)As such, anarchy is a delusional ideal. As long as anyone owns more or wishes to own more than someone else then anarchy just opens the path for them to exploit the masses.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)is the only political philosophy that makes sense to me, given the historic failure of marxism and the planet wide catastrophe that is capitalism.
It addresses both the legitimate concerns of those who rightly find the state as the pre-eminent threat to human freedom and those who rightly view capitalism and its requirement for exponential growth a manifest threat to the continuation of civilization as we know it.
chrisa
(4,524 posts)You would think they would love them, since nothing helps corporations more than a state free of government regulations.
They also seem to not get the fact that many of the services we take for granted - police, firefighters, hospitals, would cease to exist (or become privatized and be another corporation) without government regulation.
I think they're more like the Paulites than Democrats.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)we are opposed to capitalism and the state, not just the state. You are confused by right libertarians who indeed ignore the power structures of corporations as if they didn't exist and would not replace (and are not now replacing) the nominally democratic institutions of the state with their explicitly authoritarian institutions of corporations.