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Your thoughts on the philosophy of Anarchism... (Original Post) Taverner Dec 2011 OP
Most people don't understand much about it which means Remember Me Dec 2011 #1
Here is a good start: Taverner Dec 2011 #3
I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, which has its ironies.... mike_c Dec 2011 #5
Anarchism is a wonderful, beautiful theory that's completely impractical and mostly useless. TheWraith Dec 2011 #72
Without a state to hold the 1% in check, what hope does the 99% have? WonderGrunion Dec 2011 #77
I'm fascinated by many aspects of it such as these: FarLeftFist Dec 2011 #2
Works great until population reaches excessive level, which is 2. n/t dimbear Dec 2011 #4
lol Capn Sunshine Dec 2011 #6
That one... Cid_B Dec 2011 #7
It should not be tied to OWS. Countdown_3_2_1 Dec 2011 #8
Just as post #1 predicted. themadstork Dec 2011 #11
There is a huge difference between Anarchy and Anarchism Taverner Dec 2011 #13
Go read up on Anarchism before you spout ignorant nonsense. Odin2005 Dec 2011 #16
No, it's the agent provocateurs that vandalize and provoke the pigs. backscatter712 Dec 2011 #18
Actually there are plenty of "moderate" anarchists involved in starting the Occupy movement. Leopolds Ghost Dec 2011 #20
OWS is tied to anarchism, not the other way around. joshcryer Dec 2011 #23
OWS is an example of left-wing anarchism. Selatius Dec 2011 #33
Well said Owlet Dec 2011 #35
But this typifies the Tyranny Of The Majority. Ikonoklast Dec 2011 #36
Typically, the assemblies operate upon consensus, as opposed to simple-majority rules. Selatius Dec 2011 #68
Um, no it's not... brooklynite Dec 2011 #57
In this case.... AntiFascist Dec 2011 #79
Having been involved in what might be called "anarchic" or "self-organising" groups... sibelian Dec 2011 #9
There are ways around the no assholes thing. n/t Leopolds Ghost Dec 2011 #21
I am curious. sibelian Dec 2011 #30
Well, I'm only a moderate left-libertarian. Leopolds Ghost Dec 2011 #42
Outvote the assholes Taverner Dec 2011 #50
Have you read "The Dispossessed", Taverner? sibelian Dec 2011 #67
Government of some sort is necessary. That's reality. Edweird Dec 2011 #10
Juvenilia. nt Romulox Dec 2011 #12
succinct and accurate. nt Codeine Dec 2011 #43
Anarcho-capitalism is bad! AntiFascist Dec 2011 #14
aka FrightWing anarchy. FarLeftFist Dec 2011 #15
"anarcho"-capitalism joshcryer Dec 2011 #24
I'm a socialist with some Anarchist leanings. Odin2005 Dec 2011 #17
Anarchy was abolished by early hunter-gatherer societies bhikkhu Dec 2011 #19
I think you're confusing left-libertarianism (aka Thomas Jefferson) with Nihilism. Leopolds Ghost Dec 2011 #22
A more moderate example would be classical (d)emocracy, Leopolds Ghost Dec 2011 #27
Hunter gatherer societies are not post-anarchy. joshcryer Dec 2011 #26
Ahem... Cid_B Dec 2011 #34
Heinlein earned his living as a specialist. Ikonoklast Dec 2011 #37
Having a profession... Cid_B Dec 2011 #38
He was a novelist. None of the other stuff paid the bills or put food on the table. Ikonoklast Dec 2011 #40
You do understand the difference between specialization and being a specialist? malthaussen Dec 2011 #65
Oops, thanks for the correction. joshcryer Dec 2011 #61
Any unchecked power is dangerous... anarchy is the greatest tool by which powers rise. Fearless Dec 2011 #25
Most anarchists are small-d democrats. They are left-libertarians by definition n/t Leopolds Ghost Dec 2011 #28
I don't really know what you mean by this. sibelian Dec 2011 #31
In society there are two or more pieces to a properly balanced puzzle Fearless Dec 2011 #45
Your model seems to ignore differences on the left and right themselves. Selatius Dec 2011 #69
The graph represents the location of power... gov't or private. Fearless Dec 2011 #74
My main objection is the notion that capitalism is synonymous with "free market" Selatius Dec 2011 #88
holy crap, this is astoundingly ill-informed themadstork Dec 2011 #73
Mighty strong statement without supporting evidence. Fearless Dec 2011 #75
true, and point taken themadstork Dec 2011 #76
Let me give you an example of elements of anarchism. Selatius Dec 2011 #32
Society, at it's most basic level, is or should be an agreement among people Warren DeMontague Dec 2011 #29
Inadequate. blindpig Dec 2011 #39
I'm never quite sure what is meant by the term Marrah_G Dec 2011 #41
It seems to me that anarchy is a form of eveyone out for themselves and there is no one to protect jwirr Dec 2011 #44
There is a difference between Anarchy and Anarchist Theory Taverner Dec 2011 #49
That is good to know. jwirr Dec 2011 #64
Hegel to Bakunin to Marx to Chomsky to Goldman to...Gandhi and Tolstoy. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2011 #46
I think anyone who says they have both anarchist and socialist ideas muriel_volestrangler Dec 2011 #47
I guess a clarification would be that I am a Socialist receptive to Anarchist Theory Taverner Dec 2011 #48
Taxes are necessary for social services that require monetary recompense. joshcryer Dec 2011 #60
That would mean all their inputs would have to be free too muriel_volestrangler Dec 2011 #66
I'm a libertarian socialist Warren Stupidity Dec 2011 #86
Anarchism requires a better quality of human than we currently have available... saras Dec 2011 #51
Anarchists are libertarians who forego police protection from their slaves. Chichiri Dec 2011 #52
I would LOVE anarchism... RevStPatrick Dec 2011 #53
anarchism as agrarian socialism BOG PERSON Dec 2011 #54
the syndicalists of spain in the 30's would laugh at that. Warren Stupidity Dec 2011 #82
they murdered nuns and priests in cold blood BOG PERSON Dec 2011 #85
Well that is one history. Warren Stupidity Dec 2011 #87
I'd write you a detailed response, but...... izquierdista Dec 2011 #55
Until and unless a dynamic and sustainable culture illustrates that it can work LanternWaste Dec 2011 #56
just like Libertarians Matariki Dec 2011 #58
I like Chomsky's description of his version of anarchy Capitalocracy Dec 2011 #59
I appreciate it's strands that incorporate a great deal of syndicalist thought into the fold, Puregonzo1188 Dec 2011 #62
Anarchism is what casts the shadows on my Platonic wall cave. arely staircase Dec 2011 #63
Democratically principled anarchism sounds fine (nt) T S Justly Dec 2011 #70
The anarchists I've met at Occupy Denver are actually pretty cool folks. backscatter712 Dec 2011 #71
As long as wealth and property exist in any form, Anarchy is doomed to failure WonderGrunion Dec 2011 #78
decentralized democratic socialism - also known as libertarian socialism - Warren Stupidity Dec 2011 #80
What I don't get - Anarchist groups who hate corporations chrisa Dec 2011 #81
left libertarians view the corporate state as a continuum Warren Stupidity Dec 2011 #83
You're not the boss of me! Magoo48 Dec 2011 #84
 

Remember Me

(1,532 posts)
1. Most people don't understand much about it which means
Sun Dec 11, 2011, 10:04 PM
Dec 2011

you're likely to get a lot of answers that don't mean much and are worth nothing unless you offer either a description yourself or a really good link.

 

Taverner

(55,476 posts)
3. Here is a good start:
Sun Dec 11, 2011, 10:08 PM
Dec 2011
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

Anarchism is generally defined as the political philosophy which holds the state to be undesirable, unnecessary, and harmful.

My Bias?

I'm a Socialist who sees some very positive aspects about Anarchist Theory. One rule does not fit all...

mike_c

(36,269 posts)
5. I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, which has its ironies....
Sun Dec 11, 2011, 10:13 PM
Dec 2011

A socialist anarchy is pretty much the definition of the most benign and progressive means for people to live together. I personally believe that it's altogether impossible, too. But I'll take a socialist state until we evolve sufficiently to not need it.

TheWraith

(24,331 posts)
72. Anarchism is a wonderful, beautiful theory that's completely impractical and mostly useless.
Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:08 AM
Dec 2011

The idea of an anarchic state, where there's no government because there's no need for it, is lovely.

The practice would be basically all the worst qualities of savagery, mob rule, and fascism.

Small doses of anti-authoritarianism are good. But it's like salt. Too much will ruin the dish and make you sick, and you get Ron Paul type "libertarianism."

WonderGrunion

(2,995 posts)
77. Without a state to hold the 1% in check, what hope does the 99% have?
Wed Dec 14, 2011, 06:45 AM
Dec 2011

My bias?

I see an American state, led by Democrats, that stopped the march of fascism, that stared down missiles in Cuba and ended Osama bin Laden's ability to finance terror assaults against the United States. The state is the only entity with the power to break monopolies, to protect the rights of unions, to correct the inequalities of bigotry, racism and sexism.

In an anarchist state it is simply too easy for someone to pay half of the poor to kill the other half of the poor.

FarLeftFist

(6,161 posts)
2. I'm fascinated by many aspects of it such as these:
Sun Dec 11, 2011, 10:08 PM
Dec 2011
http://workersolidarity.org/?page_id=78

Not sure about the complete theory of it but I can sometimes let my mind wander into what kind of world it would be.

Countdown_3_2_1

(878 posts)
8. It should not be tied to OWS.
Sun Dec 11, 2011, 10:15 PM
Dec 2011

OWS is peaceful.
Anarchy is vandalism, and invites a forceful police response. The anarchists break laws and melt into a larger protest to hide. This makes them part of the protest, and the protest an accessory to their crimes. The police see no difference between anarchists and protesters.

To me, anarchists are less interested in a cause and more interested in excuses for mayhem.

anarchists bring only trouble to peaceful protests and offer nothing in exchange. They need to act on their own and face the consequences alone.

I don't want to see innocents pepper-sprayed because of anarchist cowards hiding in a crowd.

 

Taverner

(55,476 posts)
13. There is a huge difference between Anarchy and Anarchism
Sun Dec 11, 2011, 11:06 PM
Dec 2011

OWS is not anarchy

But OWS borrows its philosophy from socialist, anarchism, democracy, demarchy, communism, capitalism, egalitarianism, republicanism and critical theory. This is a good thing

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
16. Go read up on Anarchism before you spout ignorant nonsense.
Sun Dec 11, 2011, 11:58 PM
Dec 2011

Those violent people are not Anarchists, they are police infiltrators who start a riot so the pigs have an excuse to attack protestors

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
18. No, it's the agent provocateurs that vandalize and provoke the pigs.
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 12:09 AM
Dec 2011

They're a distinctly different group than anarchists.

Leopolds Ghost

(12,875 posts)
20. Actually there are plenty of "moderate" anarchists involved in starting the Occupy movement.
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 03:50 AM
Dec 2011

Such as Anonymous, who are basically left libertarians.

It sure as heck isn't a statist, pro-central government movement.

The basic thesis of left libertarianism is that the bigger centralized gov't gets the more in bed it gets with the financial institutions it was created to regulate. This is seen, e.g. in the statements that expansion of central authority is needed to PRESERVE the corporate system and protect it from the unrest that would follow deregulation and market instability.

Selatius

(20,441 posts)
33. OWS is an example of left-wing anarchism.
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 06:01 AM
Dec 2011

The fact that protesters gather almost daily and call for the convening of a General Assembly whereby members of the assembly propose rules or propositions, propose amendments to those rules or propositions, debate those rules and propositions, and finally vote to approve those rules or propositions outside the purview of any city council or police authority or any entity of the state is an example of anarchism, a form of self-governance outside any control of formal state organs of power. The nature of the propositions coming out of these assemblies also plainly shows them to be left-wingers to varying degrees.

People who regularly confuse the historical tendencies of anarchism with simple chaos are confusing anarchism and anomie. It is pretty distressing seeing this mistake made over and over again.

Selatius

(20,441 posts)
68. Typically, the assemblies operate upon consensus, as opposed to simple-majority rules.
Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:40 AM
Dec 2011

This is exactly why these assemblies are so time consuming. It takes a lot of time to get up to 60 or 70% approval for any proposition being debated. From what I've seen, none of them are down for the Bush method of deciding things, which is simply get 51% of the vote and then assume that's a mandate to ram whatever through the assembly.

brooklynite

(94,333 posts)
57. Um, no it's not...
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 06:23 PM
Dec 2011

...The "Occupy" Assemblies are an example of a group, but not a community. No different than a meeting of any non-profit group, if perhaps a bit less efficient. They are not, however, a substitute for "any city council or police authority or any entity of the state", because they do not carry with them the authority of the greater community to enforce decisions. If someone is a disruptive force, the Community can ignore them, but it cannot penalize their behavior because it lacks either the power or authority to do so. While, academically speaking, an Assembly of the entire community could delegate such authority, it's completely unrealistic because of the difficulties engaged in getting the entire communities agreement in an "anyone can participate in decision-making" process. This is why elected councils and elected officials evolved into our political system.

AntiFascist

(12,792 posts)
79. In this case....
Wed Dec 14, 2011, 07:04 AM
Dec 2011

anarchism is a response to a corrupt state, but the state, in and of itself, does not necessarilly need to be corrupt. The term "self-governance" implies that a particular form of governance is desired: in this case, that of a true democracy. As I argue elsewhere, I believe we are battling anarcho-capitalism, a form of anarchy where those who possess all the wealth have simply had it with democracy and desire to establish something else.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
9. Having been involved in what might be called "anarchic" or "self-organising" groups...
Sun Dec 11, 2011, 10:19 PM
Dec 2011

they do work, and sometimes they work beautifully, but:

1. The population of the group must be small or (if inevitably large for some reason) composed of a larger group divided into smallish sub-groups, 15-20 is best,
2. The fact that leadership of some kind will always emerge somehow must be understood and related to properly by all concerned,
3. If there is a set of binding beliefs or value structures ("anarchy" itself is not enough) that everyone's on the same page with within the anarchic community it's *vastly* more effective and easier to live in,
4. There can be no assholes.

It's point 4. that really kills anarchy. Otherwise it's lovely.

Leopolds Ghost

(12,875 posts)
42. Well, I'm only a moderate left-libertarian.
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 11:45 AM
Dec 2011

So I'm only involved in so-called "non-heirarchical" (I prefer the term collectively run, which has
some positive non-leftist connotations) projects at a local level. Generally speaking, it is like any
other system of self-organization. Just, you know, not top-down.

They are all prone to abuse by assholes. In fact, the person who said that it works great until you get
2 or more people together was being overly specific. This is true of human society in general; that's the problem.

Don't forget that anarcho-utopians existed before the hard left came along and made it seem all ooo scary.

It wasn't supposed to be a left-right thing; that's a gloss applied by the major political parties over
direction they want to see the gov't. Of course when you look at party alignment, "left" libertarians
are naturally aligned with the left these days, but I prefer to associate with populism, especially since
I'm a spiritual person and most folks on the hard left are anti-religious.

 

Taverner

(55,476 posts)
50. Outvote the assholes
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 01:54 PM
Dec 2011

Granted, that is an oversimplification. Often times the assholes band together in a confederacy of dunces, and strong-arm their bullying over everyone.

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
17. I'm a socialist with some Anarchist leanings.
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 12:00 AM
Dec 2011

Though I do not advocate the abolition of the state, I think the state is more often than not a tool of the ruling class.

bhikkhu

(10,711 posts)
19. Anarchy was abolished by early hunter-gatherer societies
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 12:14 AM
Dec 2011

...come to think of it, even chimpanzees have little use for anarchy in their societies. We have laws, we have customs, traditions, guidelines, expectations, and so forth. Imagining that things would improve if we did not is a mistake. Back in 1900 or so there was such a problem with inequality that the rule of law and government itself was seen as "the problem", but we have come a long way since then.

If inequality is the problem, the answer is good government, not no government. Anarchy ignores human nature, and fails miserably in the real world. Not to dismiss or disrespect the good intentions of writers long passed, but I think it is almost always a mistake to look to the old dead to solve our current problems. Circumstances change, and their thinking cannot.

Leopolds Ghost

(12,875 posts)
22. I think you're confusing left-libertarianism (aka Thomas Jefferson) with Nihilism.
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 03:53 AM
Dec 2011

Left-libertarians rely on customs, traditions, and social institutions in place of the State. That's the whole point.

Occupy is an example of a self-governing social institution.

Obviously there are many anarcho-punks who casually subscribe to nihilist notions. These people are silly and
make it difficult to have a reasonable discussion about the issue. (e.g. groups like Crimethnc that publish tracts
in lefty bookstores about abolishing all institutions and belief systems). They are silly.



Jeffersonian democrat (small d) vs. Anarchist

Leopolds Ghost

(12,875 posts)
27. A more moderate example would be classical (d)emocracy,
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 04:27 AM
Dec 2011

i.e. direct rule by the people -- not really anarchism but
only a couple steps above it in terms of how its supposedly run.

Of course, "we live in a democracy not a republic" precisely because small-d democracy
is considered by opinion-makers to be either anarchy or mob rule, depending on how it's enforced.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
26. Hunter gatherer societies are not post-anarchy.
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 04:05 AM
Dec 2011

That assumes Zerzan's idiotic view that pre-history = anarchy, which is bullshit. Almost every mammalian society has packs and hierarchies. Even Kropotkin doesn't go so far to suggest that animal societies are themselves anarchistic, in Mutual Aid. Kropotkin's observations are interspecific as opposed to intraspecific and he lays the basis for anarchism through interspecific cooperative relationships that exist in nature.

As Asimov says, "Specialization is for insects."

 

Cid_B

(3,102 posts)
34. Ahem...
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 06:15 AM
Dec 2011

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

Anarchy as a concept is for children...

 

Cid_B

(3,102 posts)
38. Having a profession...
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 08:12 AM
Dec 2011

... does not exclude one from possessing other skills.

Are you claiming that writing was the only thing he could do? Also, if it is true, he still needed a plethora of skills to have the knowledge base to write how he did.


Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
40. He was a novelist. None of the other stuff paid the bills or put food on the table.
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 10:17 AM
Dec 2011

He specialized in writing speculative fiction.

If you are claiming that one needs knowledge of what *might* transpire in a created future of his own design is a knowledge base, then I cannot change your mind.

malthaussen

(17,175 posts)
65. You do understand the difference between specialization and being a specialist?
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 04:34 AM
Dec 2011

As for RAH, he was a naval cadet, a naval officer, an engineer, a novelist, a pundit, a husband, a fencer, and probably many other things. As are most human beings. I've always considered that the quote cited was really just Heinlein channeling Terence.

-- Mal

Fearless

(18,421 posts)
25. Any unchecked power is dangerous... anarchy is the greatest tool by which powers rise.
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 04:03 AM
Dec 2011

In short, anarchy is absurd. The only people who are for it seem to be the people who think they can rise up above everyone else if given the opportunity--fairly similar to libertarians now that I think of it.

Fearless

(18,421 posts)
45. In society there are two or more pieces to a properly balanced puzzle
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 01:34 PM
Dec 2011

The "public" and the "state" are two that are common today. The Church was common in place of the state hundreds of years ago. (A vast improvement regardless of if you approve of the state at all!) Each group serves as a counterbalance of power to the other, or at least should in a properly working system. If you have to much power in the state you get authoritarianism or communism. If you get too much power in the public then you get rampant abuses by those who have the resources to become more powerful than other members of the public.

There needs to be a balance between the two. One needs to check the other's power evenly. We as a society have not yet figured how to do this properly. What is needed is little tweaks, not systemic overhaul. We need to find a way to ensure that the state doesn't trounce public opinion but that the public opinion doesn't run rampant hurting other people in society.




On review, the graph lines should be inverted... concave instead of convex... but I'm not making a new graphic now. Lol. Essentially between the two economic models, the polar opposites are communism and capitalism... rule by state and rule by free market. The potential for injustice rises as the existence of autonomous regulation (checks and balances to power) decrease. Autonomous regulation decreases the further unbalanced power is held between the state and the public.

Selatius

(20,441 posts)
69. Your model seems to ignore differences on the left and right themselves.
Wed Dec 14, 2011, 02:57 AM
Dec 2011

Mainly, with the left you have authoritarian leftism and libertarian leftism. On the right, you have authoritarian rightism and libertarian rightism.

Sure, Gandhi was very far left on economic issues, but nobody serious would say he would use the same methods as another far leftist, Joseph Stalin, to achieve the same goal.

The same could be said of Adolf Hitler and Augusto Pinochet. Unlike Pinochet, Hitler's economic policies were pretty centrist with elements of leftism and rightism incorporated, while Pinochet's economic policies were hailed by the far-right as the model to emulate, going so far right as to privatize the nation's Social Security system entirely and advocating total deregulation of the markets in true law-of-the-jungle capitalism, yet in common parlance both are considered right-wingers because both advocate capitalism. It's just that Pinochet advocates totally pure capitalism.


Selatius

(20,441 posts)
88. My main objection is the notion that capitalism is synonymous with "free market"
Wed Dec 14, 2011, 06:51 PM
Dec 2011

The idea of a free market is taken as a truism in too many circles, yet the US is an example of anything but free market capitalism. In many markets in the US, oligopolies and outright monopolies exist. There's very little competition. Health care is one of the worst examples of this. Lack of competition is why health care premiums rise at astonishing levels. Worse yet, they tend to lobby Congress to keep things that way with the amount of wealth they've accrued. The problem--I believe--is capitalists are mixing the power of the state and the power of private capital in something that can only be described as corporatism, not that there is an issue of too much public control. I guess the main point is you can have capitalism without a free market.

themadstork

(899 posts)
76. true, and point taken
Wed Dec 14, 2011, 05:00 AM
Dec 2011

as far as that goes. I'm not trying to win a debate, merely signaling that you (like many on this thread) haven't really done your homework, and you're running roughshod over the concepts you purport to explain.

but really, i'm not sure it matters. i don't have the time or energy to offer my own little breakdown of where i think you erred and where you would benefit from further research, so maybe i should just shut up, eh. sorry.

Selatius

(20,441 posts)
32. Let me give you an example of elements of anarchism.
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 05:53 AM
Dec 2011

You elect a Congress to represent you. They writes the laws, and the President signs them into law or vetoes them.

An anarchist would propose several things to that arrangement. Mainly, he would propose ways to decentralize that power, as opposed to centralizing that power. He may propose the ability to recall the legislator or President if the people wish to exercise that authority. He may propose the ability to call a referendum on an act of Congress. He may even propose the ability to pass laws through an initiative process despite what Congress would say. All of these proposals serve to decentralize power and give some of it back to people.

Somebody who has studied anarchism would not support the absence of any rules. They merely support the decentralization of rule-making power and the over-turning of rules derived from excessive centralization of rule-making power. Anybody else who advocates nothing short of chaos is silly, not to be taken seriously, and likely ignorant of the history of left-wing anarchism.

They are advocating anomie, not anarchism.

Whereas a state socialist would say that it is best if the government established a single health insurance entity owned by the state to give everybody affordable health care without tacking on a profit mark-up like a private entity, a left-wing anarchist would likely propose the establishment of a health insurance co-op, also non-profit, as an alternative to for-profit health insurance. Provided the health insurance co-op becomes large enough to provide economies of scale to its participants, both avenues would achieve the twin objectives of removing the profit mark-ups on the costs and also providing wider coverage than previous. Admittedly, a single national health insurance co-op would be harder to establish than single-payer health care in a functioning republic, but I wouldn't exactly call the US functional the way the Founders had anticipated.

Daily examples of socialism outside the government proper would be a credit union, essentially a bank owned by its depositors, or a labor co-op, a business enterprise owned by its respective employees. These are pretty common examples of socialism that people don't recognize as "socialism" in the traditional sense.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
29. Society, at it's most basic level, is or should be an agreement among people
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 04:42 AM
Dec 2011

maybe the thing to do is not think in terms of labels or systems or 'who is going to be in charge, if anyone, and who is going to control this and that and the other', but to think about different ways to look at, frame and structure the consensual universal agreement ---the 'deal', if you will--- in completely new ways that haven't been formulated or tried previously.

I think OWS was going for that, to a certain extent, and it was sort of neat to watch.

 

blindpig

(11,292 posts)
39. Inadequate.
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 09:32 AM
Dec 2011

While the end goal is the same as communism the method for getting there won't cut the mustard.

Bakunin was a great revolutionary but a poor theorist.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
44. It seems to me that anarchy is a form of eveyone out for themselves and there is no one to protect
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 01:14 PM
Dec 2011

the weaker members. Not so different than what we have going today.

 

Taverner

(55,476 posts)
49. There is a difference between Anarchy and Anarchist Theory
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 01:52 PM
Dec 2011

Even your most die-hard Anarchist would argue that collapse of government with no plans for transition would be a bad thing

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
46. Hegel to Bakunin to Marx to Chomsky to Goldman to...Gandhi and Tolstoy.
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 01:43 PM
Dec 2011

Just thought I'd add those two.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,265 posts)
47. I think anyone who says they have both anarchist and socialist ideas
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 01:47 PM
Dec 2011

needs to spell out what their thoughts on tax are, and on the services that a socialist would want provided for by state-levied taxes (health, a welfare net, perhaps housing ...)

 

Taverner

(55,476 posts)
48. I guess a clarification would be that I am a Socialist receptive to Anarchist Theory
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 01:51 PM
Dec 2011

Bakunin's thoughts on collectivization are more fleshed out than Marx's - and in my opinion more organic.

Also I do think Social Anarchism is a good thing - that is, authority is earned, not simply given by fiat.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
60. Taxes are necessary for social services that require monetary recompense.
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 08:29 PM
Dec 2011

You can have social services provided by collectives and communities that are free.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,265 posts)
66. That would mean all their inputs would have to be free too
Tue Dec 13, 2011, 08:13 AM
Dec 2011

That, for instance, would mean you need someone who will supply you fuel for free - or solar panels, wind turbines etc. The stretch of this stateless area would have to be very large, with a huge number of people deciding this is the better way to live, and being able to keep up the level of production to supply all needs in the area. I think the human race is far from being so altruistic - look at the level which is now anarchistic, ie between countries. Despite the obvious imbalances, transfers of aid between countries are still pretty small, and people are happy with that.

I really think that we are nowhere near a level of population and production that some form of state isn't vital for sorting out the community's priorities.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
86. I'm a libertarian socialist
Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:30 PM
Dec 2011

so speaking for myself: as I do not think radical revolutionary transformation of society is a productive approach to achieving the goals of libertarian socialism, my view is that if tomorrow the libertarian socialists were 'in charge', nothing much at all would change. At least not initially. Initially we would be enabling people at the local level to take control of their own lives through the creation of grass roots democratic institutions in the workplace, in the neighborhood, at every level of social interaction. The goal is to build a voluntary cooperative and sustainable world economy, but that is a long term goal. In the short term it is important to evolve the current social institutions in that direction rather than fall into the pitfall of romantic revolutionary destruction and the nightmare of authoritarianism that is the inevitable consequence. In other words for quite some time there would still be taxes, money, state socialism and state capitalism.

 

saras

(6,670 posts)
51. Anarchism requires a better quality of human than we currently have available...
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 02:26 PM
Dec 2011

...with education, anarchy (i.e. a functioning technological society with justice, and without a government) MIGHT be possible. For late twentieth-century Americans, not a chance.

Chichiri

(4,667 posts)
52. Anarchists are libertarians who forego police protection from their slaves.
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 02:29 PM
Dec 2011

Which makes them more consistent, if nothing else.

 

RevStPatrick

(2,208 posts)
53. I would LOVE anarchism...
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 03:01 PM
Dec 2011

...if we were a different species.
Unfortunately, we are Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
Not a very sapient species, if you ask me...

BOG PERSON

(2,916 posts)
54. anarchism as agrarian socialism
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 04:25 PM
Dec 2011

becomes largely obsolete with industrialization and the withering-away of feudalism. so certain aspects of anarchism could definitely be integrated into the broader revolutionary communist programme of countries where feudalism still exists. but i dont have any idea whether communism or anarchism is better for so-called postindustrial societies like ours.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
82. the syndicalists of spain in the 30's would laugh at that.
Wed Dec 14, 2011, 08:48 AM
Dec 2011

They ran the free cities of spain under anarchist principals and demonstrated the viability of doing so even under the direst of circumstances.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
87. Well that is one history.
Wed Dec 14, 2011, 05:33 PM
Dec 2011

However your new complaint is different than your prior one, that anarchism is agrarian only. So how about first we settle that issue, based on the facts at hand, and then we can move on to your new complaint. Okay?

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
56. Until and unless a dynamic and sustainable culture illustrates that it can work
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 06:12 PM
Dec 2011

Until and unless a dynamic and sustainable culture illustrates that it can work for, defend and assist its people, it, like libertarianism is little more than an academic exercise.

Matariki

(18,775 posts)
58. just like Libertarians
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 08:05 PM
Dec 2011

most people would pee in their own drinking water if they 'ruled' themselves.

Yeah, I'm cynical, but optimistic that perhaps humanity will evolve to the point where Anarchy (self rule) is possible.

Capitalocracy

(4,307 posts)
59. I like Chomsky's description of his version of anarchy
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 08:08 PM
Dec 2011

where essentially the government can make rules, but like the justice system, the state has the burden to prove those rules are necessary and appropriate. I like that concept.

Puregonzo1188

(1,948 posts)
62. I appreciate it's strands that incorporate a great deal of syndicalist thought into the fold,
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 08:59 PM
Dec 2011

the Industrial Workers of the World being the most prominent example of that I can think of.

That being said I still classify myself as a Marxist.

arely staircase

(12,482 posts)
63. Anarchism is what casts the shadows on my Platonic wall cave.
Mon Dec 12, 2011, 09:02 PM
Dec 2011

But operating in our restrictive political system I look for the policies that spread and devolve power - ie I back a government run health system because it removes power from a handful of corporations and puts into the hands of an entity that can represent the people - once we get federally funded elections.

backscatter712

(26,355 posts)
71. The anarchists I've met at Occupy Denver are actually pretty cool folks.
Wed Dec 14, 2011, 03:05 AM
Dec 2011

As far as anarchism itself, I respectfully disagree with them - I don't think society can function well without government - the asshole problem is too great.

WonderGrunion

(2,995 posts)
78. As long as wealth and property exist in any form, Anarchy is doomed to failure
Wed Dec 14, 2011, 06:49 AM
Dec 2011

As such, anarchy is a delusional ideal. As long as anyone owns more or wishes to own more than someone else then anarchy just opens the path for them to exploit the masses.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
80. decentralized democratic socialism - also known as libertarian socialism -
Wed Dec 14, 2011, 08:46 AM
Dec 2011

is the only political philosophy that makes sense to me, given the historic failure of marxism and the planet wide catastrophe that is capitalism.

It addresses both the legitimate concerns of those who rightly find the state as the pre-eminent threat to human freedom and those who rightly view capitalism and its requirement for exponential growth a manifest threat to the continuation of civilization as we know it.

chrisa

(4,524 posts)
81. What I don't get - Anarchist groups who hate corporations
Wed Dec 14, 2011, 08:46 AM
Dec 2011

You would think they would love them, since nothing helps corporations more than a state free of government regulations.

They also seem to not get the fact that many of the services we take for granted - police, firefighters, hospitals, would cease to exist (or become privatized and be another corporation) without government regulation.

I think they're more like the Paulites than Democrats.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
83. left libertarians view the corporate state as a continuum
Wed Dec 14, 2011, 08:54 AM
Dec 2011

we are opposed to capitalism and the state, not just the state. You are confused by right libertarians who indeed ignore the power structures of corporations as if they didn't exist and would not replace (and are not now replacing) the nominally democratic institutions of the state with their explicitly authoritarian institutions of corporations.

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