Ok Practice Your Religion. But Keep Your DumbA Religion To Yourself.

[TheMastersNemesis]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by one_voice (a host of the General Discussion forum).

If I want to be saved I will come and ask for guidance. Otherwise people should keep their dumb ass religion to themselves. I do not care what your stone age god is all about. All I want is to be left alone. The churches should mind their own business and confess their sins and worship whatever tin god they want. As for the rest of us STFU.

Religions is a personal and private matter and should stay that way. The latest "religious freedom" frauds are just a way to discriminate using religion as a shield. As far as I am concerned I may start refusing to serve or help these radical Christians who want to make the country a theocracy. Sure way to start a cultural civil war. And secularists out number Christians.

These "religious freedom" laws are most un American and unpatriotic. What happens if Moslems decide they don't want to serve Christians in their businesses because of "conscience". Religious freedom conscience laws will balkanize society and lead to civil unrest in the end. And it will cost lives when "conscience trumps" medical treatment in dangerous situations.

[immoderate]

1. (IBTL) Did you encounter those people at DU?

--imm

[CBGLuthier]

2. OK. practice your anti-religion but could you please

do it in the religion forum.

[RussBLib]

53. or in the Atheist & Agnostic group

did you know that one existed here at DU?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1230

[ErikJ]

3. They have twisted the 1st Amendment 'Separation Church and State' into

this freedom of religion from the state. As Seneca the Roman historian said 2000 yrs ago, said, the elitists use religion to manipulate the people.

[YarnAddict]

25. Where in the First Amendment

does it say "Separation Church and State?"

Sounds like you don't even know what the FA says . . .

[backscatter712]

70. LMGTFY...

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=establishment+clause

[YarnAddict]

101. "Establishment"

means something other than what you think it means. Nobody has ever "established" an official religion in this country. and only way far right whackos think it could ever happen here.

Convenient, how you completely ignore the next clause: "or prohibiting the free exercise," which means that anyone (including those scary Christians) can practice their religion, pray for people who don't want their prayers, say "Have a blessed day," wear religious garb or jewelry, or talk about religion.

[backscatter712]

108. The Establishment Clause was what Jefferson was talking about...

when he used the phrase "wall of separation between church and state" in one of his letters (http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html).

"Establishing a state religion" is more than just Congress passing a law saying that a particular flavor of Christianity is the Official Religion of the United States.

It means that the government cannot be in the religion business at all. Allowing public schools (government run) to require kids to pray in class is establishing religion, and giving it government endorsement. So is allowing government officials to discriminate against people based on religion, or discriminate against GLBTQIA people because of religious beliefs.

The Founding Fathers' message was very clear - government is to stay out of the religion business.

Nobody sane's suggesting Christians are getting blocked from practicing their religion - they're perfectly free to do so on their own time, on their own dime, and without the coercive power of the state.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

152. LOL I have NEVER seen that before

how do I do that please???

How do I do it so it does what yours did?

[backscatter712]

160. Go to http://lmgtfy.com/

There you can type in a Google search query, and it'll let you preview it, and it'll give you a link like the one I posted earlier.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

163. thanks

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

164. like this

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=common+sense


would come in handy when on boards frequented by American Taliban aka TeaParTY

[pnwmom]

4. And what do you mean by that exactly? Do you think a young woman who is active

in college religious groups should therefore be banned from the Judicial Council, as happened at UCLA? Just in case her religious views might bias her judgments on the council?

[Oktober]

6. It certainly doesn't speak well for her intellectual capacity....

... but should not automatically exclude her.

It's just a point not in her favor.

[pnwmom]

7. It has no bearing on her intellectual capacity, and shouldn't be a point against her. It's completely irrelevant.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/06/us/debate-on-a-jewish-student-at-ucla.html?hpw&rref=education&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region®ion=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

LOS ANGELES — It seemed like routine business for the student council at the University of California, Los Angeles: confirming the nomination of Rachel Beyda, a second-year economics major who wants to be a lawyer someday, to the council’s Judicial Board.

Until it came time for questions.

“Given that you are a Jewish student and very active in the Jewish community,” Fabienne Roth, a member of the Undergraduate Students Association Council, began, looking at Ms. Beyda at the other end of the room, “how do you see yourself being able to maintain an unbiased view?”

For the next 40 minutes, after Ms. Beyda was dispatched from the room, the council tangled in a debate about whether her faith and affiliation with Jewish organizations, including her sorority and Hillel, a popular student group, meant she would be biased in dealing with sensitive governance questions that come before the board, which is the campus equivalent of the Supreme Court.

The discussion, recorded in written minutes and captured on video, seemed to echo the kind of questions, prejudices and tropes — particularly about divided loyalties — that have plagued Jews across the globe for centuries, students and Jewish leaders said.

SNIP

[Oktober]

8. So...

How seriously should I take someone if they were members of the 'Leprechaun Lovers of LA'? They all get together and talk about the history of Leprechauns and at the end of the meeting they all try to speak to their personal vision of a leprechaun through telepathy in a moment of silence.

The fact that there is a long tradition of believing in her specific variation of a mythical creature doesn't make it any more worthy of respect.

[Iggo]

24. Thaaaaaat would be a point not in their favor.

[stone space]

104. I prefer to deal with reality, rather than some...

...words of your own that you seek to stuff in her mouth.

How seriously should I take someone if they were members of the 'Leprechaun Lovers of LA'?

[Oktober]

105. You don't have to jump threads...

What is the difference between the Christian big man in the sky as compared to Leprechauns or crap people or Zeus?

Why is one worthy of tolerance and respect and the others are just silly...?

[stone space]

107. Why is my wife not worthy of respect? (nt)

[Oktober]

111. She may be... I don't know her...

She just has one specific deficiency which is not worthy of respect and hopefully she will be cured of one day...

[stone space]

113. Like how some folks who don't respect gays want to "cure" them?

She just has one specific deficiency which is not worthy of respect and hopefully she will be cured of one day...

[Oktober]

114. Are you of the belief that being gay is a choice like religion is?

That seems a bit backwards for someone on DU...

Tsk tsk...

[stone space]

116. Your bigotry seems a bit backwards for DU. (nt)

[Oktober]

118. I think DU is ok with critical analysis...

and logical thinking...

I'll take my chances....

Feel free to address any of my points in the future after you've had a think...

[stone space]

120. You aren't thinking critically nor logically.

(I'm a mathematical logician by profession, btw.)

All you have is your bigotry and hate.

[Oktober]

123. I'll give you a free clue...

This is part where you explain WHY....

As opposed to just accusing and scooting off...

I've posed several questions to you and you have yet to answer a single one but instead have responded with logical fallacies and straw men...

[stone space]

29. How exactly does this work?

It certainly doesn't speak well for her intellectual capacity

Do you feel yourself intellectually superior on account of religion?

[Oktober]

32. Do you mean the lack of religion?

I don't consider it a plus for me...

The way I interact with the world is based on how I understand my surroundings. This comes from sound scientific principles along with a willingness to change or admit that I was incorrect if new evidence is produced.

This should be the minimal standard for an intelligent person.

Nothing to be lauded... Just what you are supposed to do...

Reminds me of Chris Rock actually...

As for the chalking one up in the negative category I refer you to my other post in this same subthread...

[stone space]

36. I'm an atheist. My wife is a Roman Catholic.

Does that make my wife less intelligent than me?

Does it prove my intellectual superiority?



Some of the stuff that I read here at DU is simply bizarre.

[Oktober]

43. You are not superior... You merely don't have a specific failing... Neutral...

She has an intellectual fault...

She may have other positive attributes but I don't think you would be so nonchalant about it if she was talking to pixies in the walls instead of the great father figure in the sky or in her head...

[stone space]

74. Her religion is most certainly not an intellectual fault.

Nor is it a failing.

It's just a part of her culture.

[Oktober]

80. If her 'culture' told her that the crab people were keeping an eye on her...

.... from deep beneath the earth's crust and that they had a very specific set of rules that had to be followed (as passed on by a group of ancient crab worshipers over 1000 years ago)....


Would you treat it so lightly?

Double points for the crab people's representative on earth with a big hat shaped like a crab claw who could continue to pass along the will of the mighty crab commune...


So what if it's part of her 'culture'?

Since folks have been wrong for thousands of years, we should continue to be wrong in their honor or something?

There are lots of things in lots of 'cultures' that are evil, ignorant, bigoted, out of date or just plain wrong. The fact that they have longevity doesn't mean they deserve respect.

[stone space]

84. The bigotry that you express in this thread...

...is evil, ignorant, out of date, and just plain wrong.

There are lots of things in lots of 'cultures' that are evil, ignorant, bigoted, out of date or just plain wrong. The fact that they have longevity doesn't mean they deserve respect.

It doesn't deserve my respect.

[Oktober]

88. I admit it...

You caught me...

I throw myself on the mercy of the court...

I am bigoted against the stupid...



Feel free to address any of my actual questions or points instead of just skeedaddling...

[stone space]

93. Here's another Christian for you to judge.

I am bigoted against the stupid...

[Oktober]

98. An excellent example...

... of someone with many fine qualities who succeeded in spite of the significant intellectual handicap of religion.

Good choice...

Still waiting to see if you are as tolerant if your wife was praying to the great Crabholio who guides her life from deep below the surface of the Earth...

edit: MLK had the additional excuse that we didn't understand nearly as much about the universe as we do today. It isn't much but it's there. We were still aware that the big sky daddy wasn't eyeballing us or talking to a man in a big hat in Italy...

[stone space]

99. I prefer to deal with reality, not...

...some words of your imagination that you seek to stuff in her mouth.

Still waiting to see if you are as tolerant if your wife was praying to the great Crabholio who guides her life from deep below the surface of the Earth...

[Oktober]

103. You are so close...

Right on the threshold of a point....

Explain why the Catholic big man in the ether is legitimate and something to be tolerated and respected while the crab folks beneath the ground are just silly and not part of 'reality'.

[stone space]

106. You don't have to tolerate anybody.

But if you continue to insult large numbers of people simply because of who they are, don't be surprised when you are challenged by parents, friends, and families of the people who you direct your hatred towards.

[Oktober]

112. Challenge me all you like....

At least I have the good taste to respond to your questions...

[Arugula Latte]

91. So if you think that the Republican agenda/philosophy is wrong and stupid,

are you a bigot if you express that opinion?

Both are chosen belief systems.

[el_bryanto]

94. Are you going so far as to express support for discrimination

based on political affiliation? Or is it simply saying that that the agenda is wrong and stupid?

Bryant

[Arugula Latte]

138. I was replying to a post calling criticism of religion "bigotry."

I don't think you can call criticism/negativity about belief systems bigotry. Point being: almost every DUer has criticized the Republican philosophy/agenda. So, what makes religion so protected and special, as opposed to the example I gave, Republicanism? It's just another belief system. Just because the supernatural is involved doesn't give it blanket protection or make it automatically deserving of respect.

[el_bryanto]

142. Except that the person making that argument made the argument above

that people who practiced a religion were mentally inferior and this should be taken into account when they are applying for clubs and the like. So I'm asking if you agree with that.

Bryant

[LanternWaste]

139. Or if her culture told her that national borders are real rather than make-believe

"So what if it's part of her 'culture'?"

Or if her culture told her that national borders are real rather than make-believe, and that the rights, privileges and responsibilities of a human being are wholly predicated on little more than which side of that entirely imaginary line one is born on.

Yet for some odd reason, we base our daily decisions on so many make-believe constructs (politics, economics, cultures, philosophies, etc.) while yet deriding other constructs holding no more, nor no less reality than what we give to them.

I imagine it's the human condition to hold like-things to different standards... dependent only on the biases we ourselves hold as individuals.

[Oktober]

144. Setting aside the fact..

... That borders are indeed real.

Fences and signs and men with guns tend to have a bit more impact than the magical man in the sky....

[stone space]

151. Because truth comes from the barrel of a gun.

Fences and signs and men with guns tend to have a bit more impact than the magical man in the sky....

[Oktober]

165. At least I can show that they exist...

It's a big step..

[Nuclear Unicorn]

128. "Just what you are supposed to do..."

Says who?

[Oktober]

133. Says the folks...

... Who think you should be a decent, thinking, critical member of society....

The bare minimum...

Don't be a drain on others and try to help where you can... Universal...

[Nuclear Unicorn]

135. Who are these folks? Some COuncil of Cardinals or something?

Sounds like they may be acting more out of self-interest than any actual obligation for me.

[Oktober]

141. Absolutely...

It is in my, and everyone else's, self interest to not be a tool to your fellow humans...

Why is this hard?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

145. How do you know what's in my self-interest?

The corrupt who exploit everyone else certainly seem to be have a merry time of it. If you can get away with it -- why not?

[Oktober]

146. You can advocate for the right to be a tool unto others...

I'm certainly not interested....

[Nuclear Unicorn]

148. I'm not advocating. I wondering why it would be "wrong" particularly if

those doing so can materially prosper without repercussion.

[Oktober]

166. Not sure what you are going for...

Is this the whole 'no morals without God' thing?

Beyond that I tend to stick with 'Dont be a dick unnecessarily'...

[TheMastersNemesis]

46. I Ws Raised Roman Catholic With 16 1/2 Years In Catholic Schools/That Does Not Bias Me In Public Are

Christ himself said render into God what is God's and render unto Caesar what is Caesars. There is a principle of separation of Church and state. For example I was taught that even though I have certain beliefs as a Catholic I can separate those beliefs in the context up a public duty when I am dealing in the public domain.

I worked in a welfare to work program helping welfare recipients get back to work. i had a young woman come that we were assessing to help. She was pregnant and wanted referral to a social worker at social services. She was possibly contemplating having an abortion. It was my DUTY in my job as a public employee to make that referral to the case worker. Now I may not have believed in abortion or right to choose even though I personally do support the right.

When you are operating serving the public as a government capacity you are obligated to provide legal services to the public even if you disagree with the serve. Otherwise do not do that kind of job. I you are a paramedic and are a "witness" and do not believe in blood transfusions, you are obligated to do the service in your capacity as a paramedic. Otherwise find some other profession.

[snooper2]

52. depends on how fundie she is...first question would be- "how old do you think the earth is"

based on answer to that we can either full stop, or move on to next question

[alphafemale]

109. Yep. That for me is a full STOP. Do not pass GO.

If someone thinks the earth is 6,000 years old,they are not a rational human being that can be trusted with anything at all that remotely affects my life.

[hfojvt]

157. I think the earth is 12 years old

but that is just me
http://www.discussionist.com/?com=view_post&forum=1015&pid=331688

[Ken Burch]

5. A lot of people PRACTICE their religion...

...but not many of us ever get it right.

[raccoon]

9. ITA about the "being saved" business.

If I want to be saved I will come and ask for guidance. Otherwise people should keep their dumb ass religion to themselves.

I think it's rude and obnoxious for Xians to try to "save" total strangers, people they barely know, or even their BFs.

Their implication is clearly "What I believe is totally right; what you believe is totally wrong." Not the best way to win hearts and minds!

[haikugal]

11. When they say they'll pray for you...

The message is clear that you need it.

[KansDem]

87. How about when Mormons baptize posthumously?

Talk about rude and obnoxious!

Business Insider: Here Are 10 Famous People Posthumously Baptized By Mormons

Elvis Presley was posthumously baptized seven times! Didn't they get it right the first six times?

[Mariana]

96. At least it isn't bothering the people being baptized

since they're, you know, dead and beyond being bothered by such crap. I'd rather the Mormons spend their time baptizing the dead by proxy than harassing living people (I understand they do that as well).

[anotojefiremnesuka]

10. I agree bring out religious nonsense in public it is fair game for

for comment and ridicule and no I am not talking about wearing a cross or special garb in public either, if one is religious and minds their own business I could care less about them it is the busy bodies and in your face religious types that are a problem.

Many folks are sick and tired of the abuse by the religious in this country, it has been going on for too long and needs to stop.

I personally find ALL religion divisive and hateful and would ban it all, so elect me and I will fix the problem.

[Jamastiene]

58. "it is the busy bodies and in your face religious types that are a problem."

That sounds like most of the people where I live. It's horrible.

[RKP5637]

61. Agree! n/t

[Mc Mike]

12. Fair enough. nt.

[Scuba]

13. Religionn is like a penis. It's OK to have one, even to be proud of it. But don't ....

... be waving it around in public, and don't try to shove it down my kid's throat!

[peacebird]

55. LOL! Fantastic way to phrase it!

[RKP5637]

63. And there are some big dicks in religion! n/t

[2naSalit]

68. Ooooh!

I like that one!

I had several different judeo-christian religions crammed down my throat as a child - while I was also enslaved by one of my parents who believed that their station in life and mine required my being enslaved... and I mean enslaved to the point that I was willing to remove myself in order to escape it. But I digress...

I have, as an adult, chosen to let those who inquire about my beliefs and affiliation with an organized religion know that I don't subscribe. I tell them I have the religion of 2na and it's all mine and nobody else belongs to it. If they pursue the proselytize into submission approach I usually shut it all down by telling them that I don't believe in them or their religion and they can politely depart from my presence or I walk away - especially when it's mormon or 7-day whatever missionaries who used to come to my door.

I have a couple quips that express my views on organized religions which I use when the need arises to rid myself of religio-talk:

Organized religions are human constructions designed for population control based on fear and guilt.

Organized religions are divisive because they all claim to be "the chosen ones" and everybody else is wrong.

[Scuba]

169. Your two quips are both spot-on.

[2naSalit]

172. They usually do the trick!

[B Calm]

14. Careful, they'll be screaming persecution if they can't pound you with their bible.

[DrDan]

15. this works both ways . . . right?

[Bluenorthwest]

21. Can you show me any secular people who are seeking the right to refuse service to the religious?

If not, then it really does not work the same in both directions, now does it?

[DrDan]

22. I was referring to the "But Keep Your DumbA Religion To Yourself" statement

rhetorically because I already know the answer.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. So of course you admit that LGBT groups do not travel the world seeking to limit religious freedoms

nor verbally attacking people of faith in large public rallies as the faith community does to us. Because like it or not, that shit is a one way pipeline streaming out of the faith communities. They seek legislation to permit them to discriminate against us, we do not do anything similar to them at all.
Do you understand that attacking groups of people in this manner, seeking to openly refuse services to them, is a big part of why others say 'keep your religion to yourself'? We will defend ourselves from attack, and when they seek to discriminate against us that is an attack. They are just bullies. Side with them if you wish.

[DrDan]

35. you are reading waaaaay too much in my posts . . . . but you knew that

[Bluenorthwest]

54. Actually I have no idea what you really mean, your posts are a bit passive aggressive and vague.

Arch comments and insinuations are no substitutes for plain spoken words.

[stone space]

82. You are the one agressively promoting your religious bigotry here. (nt)

[Arugula Latte]

86. I'm sorry that you have atheists knocking on your doors and people standing up

at meetings saying: "Hey, everyone! Let's NOT pray to the non-existent deity, okay?!" and signs on Atheist meeting halls telling you that you are stupid and evil for believing in a god.

[Douglas Carpenter]

16. in a free and democratic society a person has a right to be openly public about their religion or

their political beliefs or their sexual orientation or their favorite pet subject whatever it may be. As far as refusing business on religious grounds - that is another matter. But the right to shout it from the mountain top - whatever one believes is part of what freedom is. It is part of what America is. Love it or leave it.

[hobbit709]

17. Shout your religion from the mountaintop all you want.

Wave it in my face and you will get a different reaction.

[hifiguy]

159. So much this, hobbit!

I try to be polite to even obnoxious people. The only time I have ever blown my stack big time in public was when couple of Xtian proselytizers started following me down a public sidewalk and telling me I was going to hell after I politely told them I wasn't interested and that I am an atheist and have been for going on 40 years.

I loudly told them to fuck off and disappear or I was going to call a cop and accuse them of stalking me. I guess I was "oppressing" those morons.

[Bluenorthwest]

26. I'm not fond of the comparison of sexual orientation or other inborn characteristics to 'pet issues'

or to religious faith which is a choice made, a school of thought adopted which can also be discarded and which very often is discarded, traded in for another or for none at all.

[stone space]

33. People don't always discard their culture.

Choice or no choice.

And it is unreasonable to expect people to discard their culture.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. That's nice. I did not say people 'always' do this, nor that I expect them to. I also did not speak

of 'culture' but of 'faith. What I said was simple fact- people can and do change religions, discarding one for another or for none at all. This happens every day, and many religions actively seek converts, that is they seek out people to discard their current faith and adopt a new one. That is part of the religions themselves. They send missionaries to convert people.

Religion and culture are not the same things. But many people do in fact adopt new cultures, discard their previous culture. It also happens every day.

People change or discard religion and even culture when they wish to. The same can not be said about race or sexual orientation.

I am not fond of the tactic of rewriting what I say and responding to your own version. I did not speak of culture, did not say all people do these things nor that I expect them to do so. I just said it happens, and it does.

[stone space]

39. Religion is part of culture. A part of ones identity.

People change or discard religion and even culture when they wish to. The same can not be said about race or sexual orientation.

Race is also cultural.

It is not a biological construct.

[Bluenorthwest]

51. Religon is an aspect of some cultures, other cultures are not religious at all, some religions are

practiced differently by different cultures. Race is a matter of genetics, not of culture. A person's race is decided by the DNA of their parents, and would be the same no matter what the culture around them was. Immutable characteristic. You can change your religion, people do it all the time, but you can not change your race. You can change your culture, people do it all the time, but you can not change your sexual orientation.
Religion is a thing that is chosen. Most religions seek converts, that is they ask people from one religion to choose a different one. Some faiths have histories of territorial conquests in which the vanquished were all changed from their former faith to a new one. Cat Stevens, he was not a Muslim, now he is. If religion is inborn and part of culture and immutable like race, how the fuck is there such a thing as a former Christian who is now a Muslim? How are there Muslims who become Christian, Jews for Jesus, Hindu monks named Topher?
If religion can not be changed I expect to see a halt to all the proselytizing. If religion is unchangeable like the color of my skin, religious people really should stop asking for converts entirely.

[stone space]

75. Seriously?

Race is a matter of genetics, not of culture. A person's race is decided by the DNA of their parents, and would be the same no matter what the culture around them was. Immutable characteristic.

Do people still believe this in 2014?

[stone space]

77. Race is not immutable.

If religion is inborn and part of culture and immutable like race

Is this some sort of genetic/biological pseudoscience you are pushing here?

[Adrahil]

18. Some of these folks will not be satisfied until...

... We live in the Republic of Gilead.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

19. "What happens if Moslems decide they don't want to serve Christians in their businesses"

If that did happen what penalty should be imposed? Ruinous fines? Jail?

[Bluenorthwest]

23. What happens if some white people decide they want an all white lunch counter? I think I saw a

movie with stuff like that in it. I think some white people did that. I think the law says you can't discriminate against people by race or by religion.
So do you think it is permissible to refuse service to minority groups you just don't care for if you call that religion instead of being an asshole?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

40. Define "permissable."

Morally? No.

However, one minute folks are demanding to be allowed to patronize bakeries the next minute the same folks are demanding we not patronize fast food restaurants and craft stores.

Personally, if a person is a bigot I'd rather they be allowed to openly speak their mind so that I know to not spend my money with them.

But I also recognize that bigotry could be so widespread in some areas that life for any marginalized group could become all but unlivable.

I'm also not a fan of atheist bigots. Those who vocally chafe at all expressions of faith (or certain, select faiths) that want a two-tiered social system. They seem to think they can denounce others yet aren't keen when others avail themselves of the same right. Freedom isn't only for those we agree with. That's not freedom, that's narcissism and petty tribalism. Freedom is for those we do not like or else there is no such thing as freedom.

[Bluenorthwest]

44. You failed to address my questions. Don't blame you, as you seem to be defending segregated

services.
" one minute folks are demanding to be allowed to patronize bakeries the next minute the same folks are demanding we not patronize fast food restaurants and craft stores."- 'Folks'. I heard that, as did every dog within a hundred miles, what a whistle you have there.

Discrimination is wrong. No one is 'demanding' that you boycott bigoted businesses, others are simply doing so. I think all people should have access to any public accommodation. You think businesses should be able to discriminate against minorities they don't like. I do not agree.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

48. It's not a matter of thinking they should be allowed.

Lots of things are not allowed, whether by social norm, moral injunction or force of law; yet, they still occur. It's not a matter of license as it is practicality; analogous to the War on Drugs.

Okay, so we have laws for public accommodation. I'm not protesting against those (so don't bother playing that card as you seem to want) but has any one bigot's mind been changed by that law? Are they suddenly less hateful? Are they now better people?

What changed? Someone who is hated by a bigot got a hamburger and a bigot got a few bucks for it.

Big friggin' whoop.

What REALLY works is working on the hearts of people, showing our common humanity, striving to be better people. As an analogy -- DUIs didn't go down because of DUI laws, they went down because people realized getting drunk and killing innocent people is an asshole thing to do and we want to be better than that. The OP's rant does nothing to advance us to a better place; it's just an appeal to tribalism and legislated morality under a different banner. It is the very monster it purports to fight.

[Bluenorthwest]

59. The OP is opposed to the legislation sought by religious groups to allow them to discriminate

against LGBT people. I have no idea what you are specifically supporting, advocating or opposing. Feel free to offer your specific policy views with as much detail as possible.

You say 'Big friggin' whoop'...

[Nuclear Unicorn]

79. Do you want someone to treat you as an equal

because they see you as an equal or because the law forced them to do so?

I prefer the former. That is the extent of the meaning of my remarks.

[azmom]

121. But that's not gonna happen anytime soon. That's why we need laws to

Protect us from racist and bigots. You're talking about changing hearts and minds, like that went really well in Iraq. As a minority I don't really care if you are doing something because you believe it in your heart or if you are being forced into it, just don't oppress me. That's all I ask.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

126. "You're talking about changing hearts and minds, like that went really well in Iraq."

Neither will bombing people into compliancy. Eliminationism seems to work (for the survivors) but it tends to bring out the worst in people.

[azmom]

129. And that is why laws are needed.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

132. To impose eliminationist policies? I'm not sure what you're saying.

[azmom]

125. Holy shit. Big freaking Whoop?

That is offensive.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

131. Only if you choose to take it out of context.

Guess what. Chik-Fil-A -- BY FORCE OF LAW -- must accommodate people in protected classes. So too must Hobby Lobby.

Yet, I don't see a lot of Progressives rushing out to spend their money at those stores as an expression of civil rights.

If a lunch counter owner posted a video to YouTube declaring his open hatred for people of color, calling them all of the worst epithets, but acquiesced that he would serve them food because the law compelled him to do so how eagerly would any of us patronize his store to plus-up his profit margin?

[azmom]

134. I don't know what you just said, but I alerted on your post.

[el_bryanto]

136. Really? Does that sentence even make sense in your head?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

137. And I believe you that you alerted without understanding.

Put another way -- Would any decent person patronize the David Duke burger shop (if there really were one)?

No.

Because we don't want to give Duke our money because he is a reprehensible person.

That being said, while the CRA was good in principle in practical terms David Duke is still a reprehensible person and not worth giving our money.

[Divernan]

143. FYI Alert: Jury Voted to Leave It.

On Fri Mar 6, 2015, 12:57 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

It's not a matter of thinking they should be allowed.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6321220

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This post is offensive to anyone fighting for civil rights and social justice. To call a success of the civil rights fight a big friggin whoop is not appropriate.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Mar 6, 2015, 01:06 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's an interesting debate - didn't merit an alert.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Nuclear Unicorn has done this very thing on MULTIPLE occasions, and to be perfectly honest, if I were on the MIRT team, I'd entertain a chance to review his history, to see if he's really more of a malicious intruder pretending to be a Democrat rather than an honest left-leaning participant on DU. Voting to hide.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Are you fucking kidding me? that's not what the poster is saying at all. They are saying racial problems still exist despite the laws in place that "hold back" the racists.

Leave it.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Bullshit alert.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "Big friggin' whoop" is not offensive nor inappropriate.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with the alert. Hide.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

147. Thank-you.

Juror #4 seems to understand perfectly well.

Juror #3 apparently can't even figure out -- despite their insistence they know my posting history -- that I am a woman.

[Divernan]

149. We're all grateful Juror # 3 is NOT on the mirt team!

[azmom]

154. So was giving women the right to vote also a big freaking whoop to you?

Because in their hearts men may not really want You to vote.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

156. If, by your own admission, you don't understand what it is I am saying then why

do you persist in arguing points as if you know what I am saying?

Your lack of understanding has you arguing against a position I never took; ergo, I am not obligated to defend the arguments you mistakenly claim exist.

[azmom]

150. I alerted on your big freakin whoop comment.

Because the fact that I can eat at any lunch counter today is a big fucking deal to me. Maybe not to you. But it is to me. It's a big fucking deal.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

153. You're only seeing half the statement.

I AM NOT denigrating the CRA. I SUPPORT THE CRA. I'm pointing out the fact that bigots still exist in spite of it.

[azmom]

155. They will always exist. So what's your point?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

158. Would you ever willing spend money at a bigot's establishment?

I'll presume the answer is, "no." Decent people don't want to pad the profit margins of bigots and I similarly presume you're a decent (even if somewhat excitable) person.

So, even if the law forces a bigot to serve you, your inherent decency leads you to spend your money elsewhere.

Is the CRA bad? No. Is the CRA good? Yes. Has it really made society any better? Probably not. Society is only the sum of the people within it. Our society is better because THE PEOPLE ARE BETTER. Maybe not all of them -- such is life in this world. Even if we could eliminate the bad people in this world the next generation will produce its own assortment of people.

We can keep the CRA but instead of worrying ourselves about whether or not some bigot likes people of color or affirms women's suffrage how about we skip his lunch counter and go have lunch someplace better

like Olive Garden.

[azmom]

161. So we keep the CRA and we don't worry about the bigots, we just don't

Spend our money at their establishments. How do we know who they are?

[azmom]

168. I like your plan. But how are we going to

Identify the racists and bigots?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

171. "How do we know who they are?"

They seem to be pretty good at self-identifying. Some days you couldn't shut them up if you tried.

So we keep the CRA and we don't worry about the bigots...

The only people we can make better are ourselves. We can help each other and should but at the end of the day we must make our own choices about who we want to be.

[99Forever]

20. Yep.

I stopped being polite to those types long ago. Try to sell me your snakeoil mumbo jumbo and you'll reap the whirlwind.

[azmom]

27. That is one thing that I hated when living in the hood.

People always showing up on your doorstep wanting to talk to you about religion. It's like they prey on the poor. Outside of the supermarkets too. I hated that. I do miss the mexican corn though. The corn with the cheese and chili. Soooooo good.

[Oktober]

45. They don't knock in my area...

Can't decide if they don't bother with military folks or if they just assume the whole area is good to go...

[azmom]

83. You are so lucky. Summertime was the worse time.

We had no air conditioning so we had to leave the front door open with just the screen door, and they would knock for a long time because they knew someone was home. My sisters and I would hide out until they left. Othertimes they would spot you from the driveway so you couldn't hide and then you had to listen to them.

[Oktober]

90. I'm the one who wants them to come...

... just for the giggles.

Depends on the specific faith but there are some real doozy questions to to ask and then the uncomfortable shuffling begins...

[azmom]

97. LOL. I was just a kid back then so I would just listen to them and take their literature.

Now, my house has a gate at the courtyard so no one can even access my front door, not that is necessary because they don't come into our area. But it's like George Lopez says I Don't need a pool now that I'm old I needed one when I was a kid.

[Oktober]

100. I have to play nice with the missionaries in Africa for work...

... but at home I always hope they will drop by.

[Iggo]

117. Had one of those outside the CVS last week.

I said "No, thank you."

She said "I'll pray for you."

I told her "Pray for this."

(Yeah, yeah, I know. Cool story, Bro...lol.)

[azmom]

124. Now that I live in Arizona, I hear have a blessed day.

My husband was telling our neighbor off the other day, and as she drove off she said have a blessed day. Hahaha!

[Dont call me Shirley]

30. No mythical being is coming to save you, you are the responsible one to save your own self.

This governmental, private industry, academic slow march toward theocratizing the US is disturbing and destructive to our lives. The screaming bullying religious minority should have little sway over our public policy.

[FLPanhandle]

56. +1

I started to write a post, but you said it well.

[RKP5637]

67. Well said!!! n/t

[el_bryanto]

31. Religious freedom laws are a cynical play, and that some DUers would like to

to discriminate against the religious.

Religious freedom laws are only intended to protect one sort of activity; the right of Christians to avoid serving or being around people they don't like. They won't protect any other kind of activity. They are simply legal protections for Christian bigotry.

And of course we see upthread what some DUers would like to see happen; an America where being Religious and believing in Stone-Age Gods disqualifies you intellectually from serious jobs. We see the justification for religious discrimination in that while sexual orientation, race, and gender are not choices, religion is a choice.

Bryant

[Bluenorthwest]

34. Religion is a choice. Anyone from a missionary faith knows that faiths are chosen, missionaries seek

to persuade people to choose their faith, often the choice is to discard one faith and adopt another faith. This happens all the time, in every faith. The same is not true for immutable inborn characteristics.
If religion is not a choice, why does the LDS send folks to my door asking me to choose to join LDS?

[el_bryanto]

37. Yep - that's the argument. Thanks for presenting it.

The step beyond that is to suggest that if a practitioner of a religion is discriminated against, like say Jews or Catholics in the late 1800s or early 1900s, they can just stop being that religion. You aren't making that argument of course.

Bryant

[Bluenorthwest]

41. It is currently illegal in the US to discriminate on the basis of religion, as you know.

Religious groups are seeking the right to discriminate against others. They are very wrong to do so. This strawman you construct makes me wonder what extremes you would go to if your community was being treated like mine is being treated.
The open discussions about refusing service to any minority should be the thing that most offends a person of faith. But they seem very comfortable standing up and asking for the right to refuse service to minority groups. They are doing this, all over the country.

I also notice that you glide right past the fact that your own faith very actively seeks converts from other faiths, that is they look for people who want to change their religion. People change religions all the time. At will, with a word or a gesture, a short ritual or a private prayer. You know this, I know this.
You are saying that religion is an immutable characteristic like race, but you refuse to explain why, if religion is permanent, many religions ask people to change from their current faith to a new one.

Clearly the subject matter presents contradictions you'd rather avoid. You say religion is an inborn characteristic, but your own religion seeks converts from other religions, meaning your faith sees religion as a thing chosen or not chosen, a thing that once chosen can later be altered, discarded, replaced.

[el_bryanto]

42. Where did I say that religion is an inborn characteristic?

Please point me to a link so I can clarify that.

Did you read up thread where another participant is arguing explicitly that the religious should be treated as mentally inferior?

Bryant

[Bluenorthwest]

47. You equated religion to race and sexual orientation and proceeded to claim secular people are

out to discriminate against religious people. Religion is protected under the law, it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of a person's faith, that protected class now wishes to be specifically allowed to discriminate against others on the basis of their own protected faith.
It's a massive hypocrisy, and this thread is full of people claiming that religion is something no one can change. Frankly, I would expect those who follow missionary faiths to very clearly state that religion is something that can be chosen, being born with one does not prevent a person from converting to another. Instead the religious on this thread take issue with the statement 'religion is a choice, race is not a choice'.
The random posts of 'some participant' on DU don't amount to a hill of beans compared to organized legislation and world wide political activity on the part of 'faith groups' to treat minorities they don't like as inferior citizens. They are putting laws up for votes. I can, and have, shown you random DUers' saying really awful things about LGBT people, random people are not the same as massive interfaith organization, political lobbying and the creation of legislation to allow discrimination.

I think you might be confused because religion used to claim that being gay is a choice and they'd say that since it is a choice they should be able to discriminate against us. That's an argument from the faith community. Secular organizations do not claim that chosen characteristics permit discrimination, religious groups argued that for years and years and years. 'It's behavior' they said 'hate the sin, love the sinner' they'd say.
It is illegal to discriminate against a person for their religious beliefs. Equality would mean it is also illegal to discriminate against other groups for any reason at all. What we want is that which religious groups already have. Why is that so upsetting to them?

[el_bryanto]

50. So I didn't claim that religion is an inborn characteristic?

I just equated to other things that are inborn characteristics. That's not the same thing. But to be clear, religious faith is not an inborn characteristic. That fact can be used to discriminate on the basis of religion or belief. That is illegal at the present time, as you point out.

Also I didn't claim that secular people are out to discriminate against religious people. I said that some DUers would like to - and my evidence there is pretty strong.

What you don't seem to understand is that I can be angry at the use of religious liberty laws to shield bigotry and also angry at the explicit argument that religious people should be treated as mentally inferior.

By the way, in case anybody missed it I'm a Mormon - that's why Bluenorthwest keeps bringing up the LDS faith.

Bryant

[stone space]

78. Race is not an immutable or inborn characteristic.

is an immutable characteristic like race

Race is socially determined, and ones race can change back and forth quite easily by crossing various imaginary lines on a map.

[backscatter712]

49. My thoughts exactly.

The Founding Fathers made a very wise choice when they put the Establishment Clause into the First Amendment.

It's to keep the peace.

Believe in whatever Bronze Age skydaddies you want. I don't care which bits of your Magic Book you read and like.

But keep it to yourself.

You're not allowed to inflict your nonsense on others using the power of government.

And that's what this "Religious Freedom(TM)" crap is engineered to do - use the fig leaf of Religious Freedom(TM) to enable people to discriminate against the LGBT community in specific, as well as members of other religions, or obnoxious baby-eating atheists, while serving in positions of authority, be they judges, officials, police officers, ER doctors, whatever. It also enables the creation of a segregated society, by letting business owners and workers slam doors in the faces of those they don't like, be they LGBTQIA people, members of other races, other religions. And that is an extremely shitty society to live in, as anyone who remembers Jim Crow can attest. That's why we had a Civil Rights Movement, why so many people fought for basic rights, and why business owners need to be prevented by force of law from pulling that shit.

The Establishment Clause is the reason why we in America aren't sawing each others' heads off like ISIS is doing in the Mid-East. It's time for it to be invoked yet again.

[RKP5637]

60. Religion! More politics IMO - power, control, money, and usually dominate male authority figures.n/t

[backscatter712]

62. Or to quote from Seneca the Younger...

"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful"

[RKP5637]

64. Particularly the last one, "rulers as useful!" A powerful tool in controlling and exploiting

the mindless.

[Arugula Latte]

89. "Dominant male authority figures"

The Catholic Church makes this VERY clear. The Pope's giant hats are just big phallic symbols. Women are so obviously considered second-class citizens (or more like fifth-class citizens) by the RCC, I'm amazed that so many still put up with the church's misogynistic nonsense.

[RKP5637]

110. It's an "Old Boy's Club" if there ever was one. I'm amazed women put up with the pompous and pious

chauvinistic male authoritarian primadonnas strutting around.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

167. Patriarchal religion.

Very simple formula: Penis equals wisdom.



Since when is a god supposed to have genitalia???

[RedstDem]

71. Does the "A" in LGBTQIA Stand for Asexual?

Serious question.
I think I got all the others, so I'm 99% sure that's what it stands for, but always that damned 1% . lol

[backscatter712]

72. Yes, exactly!

Unfortunately, the asexual community gets neglected, invalidated and erased a lot.

[Jamastiene]

57. If only they would

keep it to themselves and not proselytize and aggravate the rest of us, what a nice world it would be. They could have all the religion they want and the rest of us could have some damn peace and quiet. Oh, to not have to constantly listen to stuff we've heard before and are not interested in hearing again. What I wouldn't give for that luxury in life.

[RedstDem]

65. you're damn right

Your religion bars you from giving me morning after pills, fuck, my religion says I should hang a boot in your ass.
You practice yours, and I'll practice mine.

[rusty fender]

66. Keep your dumb ass sky-spooks to your self

Sky-spook is Mike Malloy's term for gods. For me, the term distills succinctly what it is people are worshipping: sky-spooks!

[backscatter712]

69. I always liked the term "Skydaddy"

It's kind of psychological. Insecure people are always looking for strict father figures to tell them what to do so they don't have to think for themselves. And if one isn't convenient at the moment, they invent one, so they have an imaginary skydaddy in their heads telling them to hate gay people.

[ND-Dem]

73. keep your dumbA anti-religion to yourself too.

[stone space]

85. ^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^

[Warpy]

170. The subject never really comes up

unless some dumbass is ranting and talking smack about the secular humanist conspiracy and sending us all to hell. Even then, I'm more likely to outquote them.

On bad days, I'll say "Oh, I knew god was dead, but hadn't realized you'd gotten the job! CONGRATULATIONS!!" and make a clean getaway while they try to reboot.

But otherwise, the subject really doesn't come up much at all.

[Iggo]

76. Amen, brother.

[giftedgirl77]

81. Very well said....

I don't have a problem with what people believe. I have a problem with people shoving it in my face every chance they get. My son was referred to as an "atheist queer" at baseball practice the other day by one of the other player's simply because he doesn't follow their belief system. Mind you he's in the 7th grade & plays on the high school baseball team. He's been dealing with this type of shit for years so he handled it accordingly but seriously?

[valerief]

92. Religion is like war. It doesn't work unless you're dumping it on someone else. nt

[stone space]

95. Much to the consternation of the warmakers.

Catonsville Nine

17 May 1968 9 people walked into a Selective Service Office, took hundreds of draft files from a cabinet, took them outside, doused them with homemade napalm and burned them in the name of peace.

[Dreamer Tatum]

102. I'll take 'Things I Bet You Wouldn't Have Said to MLK's Face' for $1000, Alex. nt

[stone space]

115. LOL!

[hrmjustin]

119. That s fine but by the same token keep your atheism or unbelief to yourself as well.

Don't try to convert me.

As to the other part of your post it does annoy me when religious conservatives try to make their views law. But remember not all churches are conservative and some push for progressive values and I don't want them to be quiet.

[Dreamer Tatum]

122. And apply it equally to the dumbass shit that Native Americans, WIccans, and New Agers profess. nt

[Skidmore]

127. A timely article which I found useful.

Very worth reading.

http://www.salon.com/2014/03/16/the_ultimate_guide_to_debunking_right_wingers_insane_persecution_fantasies/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

The ultimate guide to debunking right-wingers’ insane persecution fantasies

Excerpted from “Taking Liberties: Why Religious Freedom Doesn't Give You the Right to Tell Other People What to Do”
Certain words should not be tossed around lightly. Persecution is one of those words.

Religious right leaders and their followers often claim that they are being persecuted in the United States. They should watch their words carefully. Their claims are offensive; they don’t know the first thing about persecution.

One doesn’t have to look far to find examples of real religious persecution in the world. In some countries, people can be imprisoned, beaten, or even killed because of what they believe. Certain religious groups are illegal and denied the right to meet. This is real persecution. By contrast, being offended because a clerk in a discount store said “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas” pales. Only the most confused mind would equate the two.

We have worked hard in the United States to find the right balance concerning religious-freedom matters. Despite what the religious right would have Americans believe, this is not an issue that our culture and legal systems take lightly. Claims of a violation of religious freedom are usually taken very seriously. An entire body of law has evolved in the courts to protect this right. The right of conscience is, appropriately, considered precious and inviolable to Americans.

More...

[el_bryanto]

130. That article is well worth reading. nt

[Skidmore]

140. I just purchased the book it was excerpted from.

Will be my evening reading today.

[hifiguy]

162. Believe whatever idiot Iron Age fairytales you want to

at home. Bring that bullshit into the public arena and tell me that I, and others, who disagree vehemently with your "beliefs" have to live by them and you will get loud and implacable resistance from me. Your freedom to be a simpleton ends the moment it infringes on the rights of others.

[one_voice]

173. Locking this. It's better suited for the..

for one of these groups:

Religion or Atheists & Agnostics. Thanks.