General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPlanet Fitness cancels woman's membership after her complaints of transgender woman in locker room
"MIDLAND, MI -- A Midland County woman's gym membership was canceled after she refused to stop telling fellow gym members "a man" was using the woman's locker room.
Yvette Cormier said the incident occurred Saturday, Feb. 28, when she entered the women's locker room at the Planet Fitness location at 701 Joe Mann Boulevard in Midland.
"I was blocked, because a man was standing there," Cormier said. "It freaked me out because, why is a man in here?"
Cormier said an employee at the front desk told her that the individual identifies as a woman.
After taking her complaints to Planet Fitness' corporate office, Cormier said she was told that the gym was a "no judgment zone" and they would not tell the individual in question to stay out of the women's locker room. The person has not been identified..."
http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2015/03/transgender_members_welcome_in.html
Oktober
(1,488 posts)Does it only require a person to state that they identify as a certain gender or are there others? X amount of time as such.. Legal change from one to the other...
Etc... Etc...
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)on hormones.
Oktober
(1,488 posts)... who still identifies as the opposite gender but isn't willing to go the hormone or surgery route?7
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)them. Really the only ones who don't have a medical condition that contraindicates hormone use.
Having said all that if a trans person wasn't using hormones and could pass or nearly pass as the opposite sex, yes as well.
Generally the physician writes the letter as to state jane doe has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria and part of her treatment is to live and work as the opposite sex blah blah blah.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)"you need to get right with God." I often imagine what my life could have been if I hadn't been forced to live it in misery because of poverty and the stupid ass bigotry in the Bible Belt.
LisaL
(44,975 posts)Any man can go into women's locker room if he says he identifies as a woman.
Ms. Toad
(34,119 posts)As to gender identity - in case you are confused:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/samtowle/whats-your-actual-gender-htj1?utm_term=4ldqphq&bffb=#.ri8JDPpPeB
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)and struts into the wrong bathroom has a lot less legal footing than a trans woman. If they ask the trans woman why she's in the wrong bathroom and she doesn't have a letter but has been treated for being trans with hormones and/or surgeries well that's still more proof that she's in there because of her identity and not to harass other women.
Of course there is a question of if walking into the wrong locker room or bathroom by itself and just doing your business as ordinary without leering, flirting, peeping, exposing yourself unnecessarily is even illegal. It probably isn't (especially with bathrooms), though it certainly would violate cultural norms and likely get you thrown out. Think about it - walk into wrong bathroom or locker room by mistake. Illegal? Doubt it. Walk into wrong bathroom with a child (or child is wrong gender) or disabled person. Illegal? Doubt it. Go charging into the wrong bathroom faster than Usain Bolt because you're about to poop your pants or hack your guts out. Illegal? Doubt it. Of course police can come up with generic charges like disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace as well (not that these are big deals, just fines usually).
It's the leering/peeping/exposing yourself unnecessarily part that's illegal. If a gay man was harassing other men in the men's room it would be illegal too... it would just be harder to prove because he's not violating any cultural norms being there.
Really though trust me, the last person you should be worried about harassing you is a trans woman. A very high percentage of us are lesbians but most of us are terrified of police. Police treat us like shit because they're usually ultra conservative men (and what more disgusting to them than a "man" who doesn't want to be a man) and often try to put us in men's jails or in administrative segregation. I've never seen the inside of a jail cell or even known another trans woman who has but it still frightens the hell out of me.
City Lights
(25,171 posts)use isn't solely based on what gender one identifies with, but also with how one is dressed.
http://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/index.ssf/2015/03/transgender_woman_says_she_onl.html#incart_story_package
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)The club's membership agreement probably gives them wide latitude to cancel her membership for being irritating.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)A clinical threshold is passed when concerns, uncertainties, and questions about gender identity persist in development, become so intense as to seem to be the most important aspect of a person's life, or prevent the establishment of a relatively unconflicted gender identity. The person's struggles are then variously informally referred to as a gender identity problem, gender dysphoria, a gender problem, a gender concern, gender distress, or transsexualism.
Such struggles are known to be manifested from the preschool years to old age and have many alternate forms.
These forms come about by various degrees of personal dissatisfaction with sexual anatomy, gender demarcating body characteristics, gender roles, gender identity, and perceptions of others.
If a decision is made to make a transition then something like this is required
1) legal age met to make decisions
2) 12 months of continuous hormonal therapy for those without a medical contraindication
3) 12 months of successful continuous full time real-life experience. Periods of returning to the original gender may indicate ambivalence about proceeding and should not be used to fulfill this criterion. (This seems to indicate use of the restrooms, locker rooms of the transitions target gender, would be expected)
4) necessary psychotherapy to deal with the experiences of the real life trial.
5) knowledge of the cost, required lengths of hospitalizations, likely complications, and post surgical rehabilitation requirements of various surgical approaches.
6) awareness of different competent surgeons
Oktober
(1,488 posts)I think most folks concerns would be with someone who decided yesterday and they feel entitled to use the new locker room.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)much other than fear and bigotry acquired from prejudicial myths they picked up informally
Oktober
(1,488 posts)... but rather would be using the tolerant policy to get their jollies...
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)is that a -real- person or just one of those pretend people upon whom doubts are projected in a discussion?
cui bono
(19,926 posts)and who identify as male but would pretend to identify as female just to be able to go into the women's locker room and see naked women. I wonder about that myself.
I don't see it as a slight against a transgendered person, it's more of a critique against certain hetero males, though I can see that it might be taken as a "concern" that is used to not allow someone who identifies as female into a women's locker room.
I don't think the poster meant anything negative by it, which seems to be what you are getting at.
7962
(11,841 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)"surgical transition" is not required for legal gender change here in the UK, for instance. And surgery is both very expensive and frequently less than optimal; a neo-vagina requires dilation for the rest of one's life, for instance, and a constructed penis frequently has functional issues; there's also potential loss of sensation and such, some surgery is possibly recommended, hysterectomy and oophectomy for trans men, and orchidectomy for trans women, but full genital reconstruction surgery is something that a lot of trans people choose not to have. (The idea that "you're not a *real* trans person if you don't have/don't want SRS" is kind of generally wrong and cisnormative.)
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)required in quite a few US states, unfortunately. Some states demand it before they will - for instance - change a birth certificate (some amend, some will reissue).
The problem is no clear set of rules from state to state. It has less to do with the perception of the individual and much more to do with the perception of the rule-makers.
(An fyi - my son recently completed a successful surgical series for a complete phalloplasty - in London. He had originally leaned toward oophectomy, but after research and consultation with his surgeons, opted to go the whole way. It has worked out very well and yes, luck always has something to do with it - but he's very happy with the result. Everyone's mileage varies, but I think that you are expressing the most conservative options. Techniques are improving every day).
hunter
(38,339 posts)Mind-Your-Own-Business, as Ann Landers or Dear Abby might say.
I strive to accept people on their own word and it always makes me sad when they (very rarely) violate my trust.
Let me be explicit. I grew up in a culture of casual and occasionally artistic nudity. There are naked pictures of me on the internet. Back when Costco was still developing film the photo clerks got an eyefull of my naked self because I'd brought one of my film cameras to the river and my wife had taken pictures knowing that I mostly develop my own film.
Oops...
I saw great grandmas naked on a few occasions...
Do your tits hang low?
Do they wobble to and fro?
Can you tie them in a knot? Can you tie them in a bow?
Can you toss them over your shoulder ...
Great grandmas would have laughed, and at the male "balls" version of the song too.
It's always best to accept people as they say are. Mostly they won't disappoint you; a woman who looks like a man, or a man who looks like a woman.
I have a further observation:
In most of the U.S.A. females will crash the male restroom with or without the assistance of trusted males, when the lines get too long outside the women's restrooms. Males don't enjoy the same privileges because we usually have sufficient restrooms, which is another aspect of our sexist society, but worse, there seems to be many more creepy males among us than creepy females. It's a fault of our society.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)using the bathroom the transitioning person identifies with seems to me to be part of the expectation
I imagine getting clocked by the unaccepting is surely one of the hard things about transitioning
genwah
(574 posts)guess that this became policy to fight fat shaming. Which really makes sense to me, anyway, because the people who one would want to attract as customers would be everyone, including those who might be afraid to be embarrassed by other customers.
LisaL
(44,975 posts)All someone has to do is to say they identify as a woman.
underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)permitted in which areas of their club.
They are very cool in dismissing this woman's irrational fears and phobias and in canceling her membership. She is free to choose another workout facility that perhaps more closely reflects her narrow minded views.
I won't exactly shriek 'go team' and hang a Pride flag on their front door, but this contemporary view is to be embraced as the norm rather than the exception.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)and it may not be in business much longer.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Response to Contrary1 (Original post)
Post removed
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)Gender identity is much more complex than you will admit. And the woman who was shunned exhibited creepy, disruptive, and obsessive behavior by coming back to the gym day after day specifically to shame one individual. She violated the terms of her membership and was rightly banned.
More importantly, compassion in the area of gender identity is not mutually exclusive with economic equity. In fact, the two are related and are deeply held progressive values.
You're the one in the minority here.
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)But, you seemed to have filled in the gaps, so to speak. She (the woman complaing) never said anything about "dangling genitals" what she did say was:
the trans woman she was sharing a locker room with looked too much like a man.
He looked just like a man, Cormier told WNEM. He did not look like a woman. She did, however, want to make clear that she has no issue with the LGBT community and fully understands the issue surrounding gender identity.
But, she also said that when a person walks into a womens locker room and, in appearance, presents themselves like a man, the initial reaction is to think that theres a man in the womens locker room.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/03/planet-fitness-drops-member-who-complained-about-manly-trans-woman-in-locker-room/
This doesn't to appear to be about her seeing a penis or testicles, but rather about her making an assessment on someone not looking "enough like a woman."
Revanchist
(1,375 posts)I wonder how she would of reacted if any of the females from Meg Allan's Butch exhibition walked into the locker room?
?format=750w
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)It is amazing the lengths some go to discriminate (or make excuses for it) against transgender people or even peoples' appearances.
Revanchist
(1,375 posts)the picture I posted is of a CIS woman, as are all the participants in the exhibition that I linked to above.
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)It really goes to that idea we were taught as children: don't judge a book by it's cover.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)what does it stand for?
Revanchist
(1,375 posts)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)azmom
(5,208 posts)Short.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Snow Leopard
(348 posts)With your post except that violence against women 'all over the world' is irrelevant to this particular issue in my opinion anyway and I would also point out that men are are the majority victims of violence. I do agree and think this woman was right to complain though.
Oneironaut
(5,538 posts)uppityperson
(115,681 posts)F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)It's time for some late night pizza, methinks.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)US Americans and some of the other telltale signs. Sounds like her, anyhow.
I despise that they are allowed to be so overtly bigoted nowadays. The other day a poster said the GLBT community were making people hate us with all our demands for equal rights. They said we were causing a backlash for marriage equality. They must have had their head in the sand before marriage equality. It's not backlash. It's more of the same lash from the same bigots. There are far too many bigoted posts on DU nowadays. No wonder most of the GLBT community and the AA community and so many others have left already or are in the process of leaving.
I'm thinking about it too. If I wanted to hear bigotry all the time, I could just step out into the Bible Belt here where I live for that kind of hatred. Don't need to see it on DU too. I'm glad there are good people around too, who see the bigotry for what it is. Thanks for your post.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)We are terrribly sorry you were not satisfied with your experience here. Would you like a $5 gift certificate for taco Bell by way of compensation for your time?
Farewell, Exhibit A, you will be missed.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)Treant
(1,968 posts)on a Saturday morning. The lack of reading ability (or, more accurately, reading things into the article that it does not say) is not exactly a shining example of "serious think(ing)" on your part.
Response to Treant (Reply #18)
Name removed Message auto-removed
icymist
(15,888 posts)Hold it until they get to a bathroom approved by you?
Response to icymist (Reply #233)
Name removed Message auto-removed
greatauntoftriplets
(175,764 posts)Ban them from the library, obviously.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)City Lights
(25,171 posts)Hold it? Stay home? Piss somewhere in public?
icymist
(15,888 posts)Just like the homeless. And anyone else they hate.
City Lights
(25,171 posts)It just makes me sick to see so much of it here. This used to be such a great place.
SanchoPanza
(414 posts)What happened is that a man walked into the women's locker room. The woman who was already in the locker room correctly identified a male-bodied person as a man, and objected, which is exactly what one should expect in such a situation. We have sex-segregated spaces that involve partial or total nudity specifically to protect women from male violence, which, if you haven't noticed, remains extremely common all over the world.
A woman entered a public locker room, saw another woman who did not fit her stereotype of what a woman ought to be, and alerted the facility's management. She was then informed that the woman she saw was transgender, and had the same right to access that locker room under company policy. A person not consumed by an irrational fear of trans folk would have ended it there.
Are you seriously applauding a woman being punished for recognizing a male body when she sees it and knowing that a male body is a threat to her wellbeing, especially when that man has already indicated he has no respect for women's boundaries by forcing his way into a space where they are supposed to be safe from men? What kind of gaslighting bullshit is this?
Issues concerning sexual violence are irrelevant to this case once the identity of the woman as transgender was established. She was in the women's locker room because she is a woman, not because she is a sexually violent man looking for a potential victim.
"Pay no attention to the dangling genitals! I IDENTIFY as a woman, so you're a bigot for even thinking my male anatomy is male."
You're clearly uncomfortable with the entire notion of a transgender person. This is your problem. It is not theirs, and you are in the wrong for attempting to make it theirs instead of analyzing your own prejudices.
Eventually this kind of stupidity is going to destroy what remains of the political left in this country, and you're willing participants in that destruction when you allow yourself to be distracted by this kind of foolishness instead of the urgent and essential concerns of politics: economic issues. Politics is not about men pretending to be women. It's all about how resources are distributed. And while you halfwits are demanding that men in dresses be accepted as women because they say they "feel like" women, we are slipping back into a feudal system that makes serfs of the 99%. This is, of course, exactly what the 1% want. They want you distracted by bullshit so you can't fight them on the issues that actually matter.
Politics is about power; who has it, how'd they get it, how are they using it (and who they're using it against), and under what rationale. What undermines the political left in any context are successful attempts to split diverse coalitions of people with grievances against the status quo. The grievances of trans folk are just as legitimate as yours.
Why should I care about issues of sexual violence, which you seem to care deeply about?
Why should I care about issues of economic fairness? What makes them worth my time and energy?
The answer is because these are issues of justice for human beings, who are all, by virtue of being human beings, entitled to decent treatment by others. That is the very essence of leftist politics. One who cannot see that should not be lecturing others on the necessity of "clear thinking."
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)Exceptionally well stated!
Oh hell...another one is needed!
eridani
(51,907 posts)I suspect that the complainer would have objected to them as well.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Shout that shit from the rooftops!
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Hong Kong Cavalier
(4,573 posts)There's something awfully familiar about that hidden post. I'm pretty sure that person's been here before. Repeatedly.
DawgHouse
(4,019 posts)City Lights
(25,171 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts):bowdown:
azmom
(5,208 posts)uppityperson
(115,681 posts)Spazito
(50,549 posts)Skittles
(153,254 posts)yes INDEED
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)Last edited Sun Mar 8, 2015, 06:55 PM - Edit history (1)
with male genitals who entered women's bathrooms and locker rooms actually did identify as a woman.
But we know that's not the case. Straight men do assault women in these public spaces. So what is a solution that will keep all women safe -- including transwomen?
http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/Police-Warn-of-Attempted-Rapes-in-Downtown-LA-Restrooms-286162531.html
Police on Tuesday were alerting the public to be aware of their surroundings after three men were arrested in connection with a series of attempted rapes in women's restrooms in downtown Los Angeles.
There have been three attempted sexual assaults in the past two months in downtown LA restrooms. Police believe the men have either hidden inside restrooms or forced their way in, police said.
SNIP
In the office buildings where the incidents took place, changes were made to make the restrooms more secure and inaccessible to outsiders.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)The story you linked to about attempted assaults and transgender people.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)they see a person with the physical appearance of a man in a private space reserved for women.
Transwomen don't always physically transition and could appear to be male. And men in the ladies room can be a threat.
Honestly, now: if you had a 9 year old daughter and you escorted her to the ladies -- only to watch a person who appeared to be an adult male go through the door first -- would you let your daughter follow the person in, so that they'd be alone in the restroom together? Or would you tell her she should wait till the male-looking person came out?
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)There are some very masculine-looking women who were born physically as women. Are they a threat too?
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)It was about a person with a male body who identifies as a female.
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)pnwmom
(109,020 posts)how can someone know?
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)Where in either article did you read the other woman didn't transition? I must have missed that part. What I didn't miss, but you seemingly have missed...again..., is the complainer thought the other woman wasn't "female looking" enough.
Violet_Crumble
(35,980 posts)Anyone who doesn't look feminine enough can be taken aside and asked to either produce their birth certificate or drop their pants so that any dangly bits are located and sent off to the mens loos. Anyone who gets through the first checkpoint has to deal with the secondary checkpoint set up by the fashion police where anyone wearing lycra or colours that don't work well together get turned away or sent to the back of the queue.
Or.....women who need to go to the loo but who have the overwhelming urge to know what's inside everyone elses undies can just mind their own fucking business. Yeah, this second one works for me.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)just to make sure. The preoccupation with genitalia is amazing. As you say, those "... who have the overwhelming urge to know what's inside everyone else's undies can just mind their own fucking business. Yeah, this second one works for me."
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)vanishingly small as to be irrelevant. If you frequent trans womens message boards or reddits you will see countless "which bathroom do I use?" or "I'm scared shitless to use the women's room and I can't use the men's one any more because some dude started yelling at me" posts. And no one would endorse a non-transitioning woman to use the women's room.
I know more than my fair share of trans women who are post transition and even then go out of their way to avoid bathrooms and locker rooms as much as possible (ie they change at home, go to the gym without using the locker room, then go home to change). I used to do this (now I have workout equipment at home so don't need to), even though I haven't had anyone think I was a man since Bush's reign of error. :p
Anyway. I'm interested in hearing solutions to this issue. Having legit trans women use the men's bathrooms and locker rooms is obviously a non-starter, but rather than just complain let's find an actual solution here.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)Last edited Sat Mar 7, 2015, 09:46 AM - Edit history (1)
many react with primordial instincts as a first thought with a fight or flight reaction. That, I don't think is going to change for many because it's an ingrained sense. ... that said, I think what is helpful is the increased visibility transsexuals now have. I think it's something many have not thought about, but with improved communications it can now be a topic of enlightenment and hopefully more sensitivity that everyone is not exactly the same in life in many many ways.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)there is certainly more tolerance I could still get assaulted or fired if I did out myself.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)pnwmom
(109,020 posts)They understand the issue.
Unfortunately, the number of women attacked in restrooms by straight men isn't vanishingly small.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)what is the solution to trans women needing to take a piss? Third bathrooms? All one toilet bathrooms with locks? Or?
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)No more urinals. It wouldn't matter if sinks were gender-neutral.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"the number of women attacked in restrooms by straight men isn't vanishingly small..."
By how much and by what measure will the current policy of the club affect this number?
SanchoPanza
(414 posts)Once she consulted with the gym's management and discovered that the other woman is transgender, her discomfort at the possibility of a sexually violent man lurking in a women's locker room should have dissipated. It did not. This was not the fault of the other woman, nor was it a problem that the other woman should be expected to correct as she did nothing wrong.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)the management's decision. I can understand her having concerns at first, but she persisted, that, crossed the line for me.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,350 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)And this is the harassing behavior that got her kicked out. It happened well after she was informed, and had absolutely nothing to do with safety.
Cormier said she then got a call from Planet Fitness' corporate office telling her that she was violating their "no judgement" policy. She says they asked if she was going to stop talking to other women in the locker room and she said she would not.
Cormier said the representative told her she was no longer welcome at the gym.
tblue37
(65,502 posts)the person was a transgendered woman, and that shoul have been that. Instead, though, she spent the next several days pestering other women and complaining to them about that member, which would have been both annoying to other members and harassment against her gossip target.
So to make sure you're comfortable, we should make sure that the transgendered person is not comfortable.
No thanks, I'll look for another answer.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)to be male went in the restroom ahead of her, would you allow your 8 year old to be there alone with that person, or would you tell your 8 year old to wait till the person came out?
Or if you were standing outside the ladies', waiting for your daughter to come out, would it be fine with you if a man (or a person who appeared to be a man) walked in?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Normally I am very comfortable with having my young daughter going into a public bathroom by herself, because the chances of a random woman being a sex abuser are infinitesimal. But if men who claim to "identify as women" are using the facilities, the situation is obviously different. (I realize that in the eyes of some that makes me a despicable transphobe or something, so be it).
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)Unfortunately sometimes you can't tell by looking whether a male-looking person is a transwoman or a straight man.
And straight men shouldn't be going into a ladies room or locker room.
Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #157)
underahedgerow This message was self-deleted by its author.
icymist
(15,888 posts)Are you trying to tie Transgender people into being pedifiles? Transpeople don't walk around with a big red 'T' on their forehead. Most of them, you wouldn't even know that they were trans.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)not about transgender people.
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)..and it ain't pretty!
The article in the OP is not that great in my opinion because it leaves too much up to the imagination (as seen in the other response you addressed). However, this article, news story, gives more information:
He looked just like a man, Cormier told WNEM. He did not look like a woman. She did, however, want to make clear that she has no issue with the LGBT community and fully understands the issue surrounding gender identity.
But, she also said that when a person walks into a womens locker room and, in appearance, presents themselves like a man, the initial reaction is to think that theres a man in the womens locker room.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/03/planet-fitness-drops-member-who-complained-about-manly-trans-woman-in-locker-room/
There is NO mention of her seeing male genitalia, simply that she (the transgender woman) wasn't "female-looking" enough. The banned her because she kept running her mouth to other patrons.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,718 posts)GLBTQ rights are civil rights and civil rights are human rights and the woman doing the complaining seems like a hater. That being said a dressing room in a gym is a lot less private than a restroom. In a public restroom you go in the stall, lock the door, do your business, and leave.
There isn't nearly as much privacy in a locker room. I just got back from working out at L A Fitness. I can attest to that.
We need remedies in these situations that protect the rights of the minority while respecting the wishes of the majority...
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)The bathroom and the dressing rooms are private. There is a common lounge, but everyone is dressed. The problem I am having is this woman is saying the other woman didn't look "female enough." Take a look at the pic someone added of a CIS woman and think how easily someone might think she isn't "womanly enough." Even in her interview, the complainer uses "he' to describe the other woman. Sadly, too many people in this tread are adding things to the story that aren't there and drawing conclusions from those additions.
Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #116)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)This has been bothering me. I respect a person's right to self identify their gender. I don't like discounting a woman's feelings of fear or discomfort as simply bigotry. The statistics for sexual assault are abysmal - meaning that all women live in a climate of potential violence. There needs to be sensitivity to that in this discussion, not shaming someone who is uncomfortable being in a potentially vulnerable space with someone they perceive as a male.
Response to Matariki (Reply #148)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)This has been a hot topic today amongst my facebook friends, some of whom are transgender. I've been thinking about it all day and have had most of the same thoughts you've expressed so eloquently.
Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #116)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)I am not worried about transwomen being in a ladies room or a locker room. I am only worried about straight men being in there. The problem is knowing which is which when a transwoman hasn't physically transitioned.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)pnwmom
(109,020 posts)Or only the straight men who go into ladies rooms to sexually assault women and girls?
As I said, I'm only concerned about the straight men, not the transwomen.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)banning pre-op transmen cron woman's bathrooms. Because, and be honest here, what other reason do you have to bring up these "concerns" in every fucking thread about transgender people in bathrooms/showers?
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)I'm asking for ideas about how to keep ALL women and girls safe in ladies' rooms, including transwomen. And that means keeping them safe from attacks by creepy and/or violent straight men.
http://fox4kc.com/2015/01/28/man-accused-of-lewd-behavior-arrested-after-following-teen-around-community-center/
So I moved over to the hot tub and he followed me in hyperextended and AI went to the sauna and he followed me in there, said Reeves. And then someone was like hey dont get back in the pool.
She decided to go to the locker room, where she says the man then followed her there too.
In kind of a kind of like little alcove, and so he was in that area, like, he shouldnt have been there, like, it was part of the ladies locker room, said Reeves.
He came out of the girls locker room and I knew that was a no-go, said good Samaritan Derrick Eazor.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Thats the issue, assaults in bathrooms and other vulnerable places are a concern, but, and let me emphasize this, that is offtopic to this thread. This thread is about the bigotry of one woman and the justified action of Planet Fitness. Thats it. End of story.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)just as transwomen are real.
She needed to be educated about transwomen, but some people here need to be educated about women's safety.
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)Seems you and several others are adding to the narrative as opposed to actually dealing with what actual has been reported. Why is the safety of transgender people never considered worthy of protection, only the cisgendered majority seem to matter?
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)I am horrified at some of the things I have read in this thread. Your posts have been quite impressive. I am glad you waded into the fray. Your last post (#179) was excellent! Why is the other woman's safety not taken into consideration?!?
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)See this thread title, knew the bullshit that's about to ensue, and who would post here, and had to weigh in. Excuse my typos, on my phone and have big thumbs, lol.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)How can all women be safe from assaults by straight men in private places?
One solution some people have proposed is adding individual, gender neutral bathrooms. These could be used by transgender people and also by parents and children of opposite sexes. Would that be a solution? If not, what else? I'm asking.
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)Do you think the complaining woman would have been OK with a gay man? Would you? BTW, the "accused" woman is likely straight, so how the hell would she be a threat to another straight woman in regards to sexual assault? Straight women on woman sexual violence is almost unheard of. Do you know see how the accuser is putting the accused in danger? Is her safety not worthy? Why did the accuser feel the other woman was not "woman" enough and kept up her BS campaign of harassment?
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)at least full service ones. Individual toilets with shared sink are may be a solution. However, we have many places where bathrooms are designed as they are and thats not going to change without extensive remodeling, so what do you propose for transgender people. That they just hold it till they get home?
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Of safety, she could have brought it up to the gym's management and have them take care of it. Instead she went out of her way to point out this woman, calling her a man, etc. All in an apparent effort to humilate and/or embarrass her.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)You are aware of the effects of testosterone suppression and oestrogen, yes? HRT gives trans women lower bone density, lesser muscle mass, redistributed body fat, breasts, and also both reduces libido, for one, and makes achieving an erection very difficult if not impossible, for another. Sexual reassignment surgery isn't a criterion for being "actually trans".
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)whether she has any surgery or not.
Ms. Toad
(34,119 posts)or choose to take hormones. For some, hormones are medically contraindicated.
Here is how you tell what gender someone is: http://www.buzzfeed.com/samtowle/whats-your-actual-gender-htj1?utm_term=4ldqphq&bffb=#.ri8JDPpPeB
If they identify as female, they belong in the women's room. Period.
The rapists you are concerned about don't identify as female. Their access to the women's room is because they hid there, or forced their way in - not because they announced they were female and waltzed in.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)and assault women and girls inside.
I'm not worried about transwomen. I'm worried about straight male thugs. Maybe all toilets should be in individual fully enclosed stalls with lockable doors. (Gender neutrals sinks could be outside.)
Ms. Toad
(34,119 posts)We are talking about women, some of whom happen to be trans.
No one is suggesting that women's bathrooms and showers be open to straight men. But the use by transwomen (or other masculine appearing women) of women's bathrooms is just not a real physical safety issue - it is a way of further isolating and punishing transwomen for not being good enough to be considered women.
If you're really not worried about transwomen, then stop linking their presence in women's bathrooms and showers to the behavior of straight male thugs (who are plenty creative enough to find their way into women's bathrooms without having to pretend to be women).
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,718 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)So you're advocating for "separate but equal" for a specific class of people? You are aware that's pretty much the same argument as in Plessy v Ferguson, right?
Oneironaut
(5,538 posts)The people in your story were. Sigh...
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)until she asked. Yes, she needed to be educated. But the larger issue still remains. How do we keep all women, including transwomen, safe in women's restrooms and other private areas -- and straight men out?
If you're a male, and you were waiting for your 8 year old daughter who was alone in a ladies' room, would you care if a person who appeared to be a man went inside?
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)every person who looks the faintest androgynous before they go into the women's restroom?
Also, your question is the worst sort of fearmongering, Jesus fucking Christ.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)and cross our fingers?
You didn't answer my question about allowing a daughter alone in a public restroom with a stranger who appeared to be male. Any father of a daughter could face that decision;it's not fear mongering.
I think building codes should be changed to require some individual gender-neutral restrooms that could be used by anyone who needed them.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)checking also. Maybe strip, look at genitals, show porn?
For real, seriously. Fearmongering run amok.
Oneironaut
(5,538 posts)Where is this supposed epidemic of men trying to pass as women so that they can enter the women's room? It doesn't exist. The only people who claim it does are far-right nutjobs who have an agenda.
You realize that trying to 'pass' can be very important to someone who is transgender, right? I can't even imagine the pain that it caused this woman to be misgendered and have this bigot make a huge fuss over her being in the locker room.
There is no safety issue. There are no cis-gender men trying to pass as women to get into the womens' bathroom. I wish you and others would stop repeating this meme.
pnwmom
(109,020 posts)to go into the ladies' rooms. They just walk in. And in your world, no one would be concerned at all.
In the real world, women and girls (including transwomen) are sexually assaulted every day. There should be a way to ensure their safety from straight male predators in restrooms and locker rooms.
Oneironaut
(5,538 posts)Men have barged into the womens' bathroom and raped women. What does this have to do with transgender women? Men are still not allowed in the womens' bathroom. Plus, I never said that as women we shouldn't be concerned for our safety in the bathroom. That has nothing to do with the debate.
Since you admit that a cisgender man would just walk in, aren't we in agreement then that transgender women using the womens' locker room does not pose a safety issue to women, and that cisgender men pretending to be transgender to gain access to the womens' room is a ridiculous notion? I mean, they're rapists, but they're going to go through the trouble of telling everyone they're transgender so that they can be allowed into the womens' locker room? That makes no sense at all.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Are you an medical expert on gender?
With all posts and with all the lecturing in the past few years, I was under the impression that you were a legal expert and/or had scientific expertise on gender issues.
Which one is it? Is it both?
stone space
(6,498 posts)...after she asked and got educated.
Then she got educated some more, right out of the gym this time.
Response to pnwmom (Reply #4)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Wasn't it called gender truth or some bullshit like that?
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)women"?
Ms. Toad
(34,119 posts)They were hiding in, or forced their way in to women's restrooms.
Forcing transwomen to use men's facilities, which increases the very real risk of violence they live with daily, does nothing to prevent men from hiding in (or forcing themselves into) women's restrooms.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)I guess that woman may have learned that flapping your jaw and judging other people is wrong.
Response to Contrary1 (Original post)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Just like not everyone with a vagina identifies as a woman.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)was a woman who just used to be a man, and not a man.
Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #52)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)and their doctor is confidential information. There is no need for the complainer to see any such evidence, nor is Planet Fitness under any obligation to say if they saw any.
There is also no proof that I can see that the woman gossiping was justified in her complaints. Who the hell is she to say who looks feminine and who doesn't. Sometimes bigotry is just bigotry.
There is absolutely no proof that the woman complaining was a victim of violence at all.
Response to HappyMe (Reply #62)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)and the patient is their business. How do you know that Planet Fitness did not ask to see any such letter, and did not mention it to the complainer for confidentiality reasons.
Response to HappyMe (Reply #67)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)those rights must be upheld.
There are female and male sociopaths everywhere. There are also gossipy bigots everywhere. I think what we have here is a gossipy bigot.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)In a men's bathroom or locker room. I get asked when my last period was at a doctor's office so many times now its starting to get annoying. I have "female' listed on my drivers license and passport.
Yes I understand it's a sensitive topic but so often I just hear complaining rather than actual solutions proposed. I just want to take a piss in a public bathroom without getting harassed and no I do not stand to piss so it's not like you would know.
Response to MillennialDem (Reply #135)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)This is the best approach? Just jamming it into anti trans peoples heads that trans women are women period? I mean I obviously agree with the statement but not sure I agree on the tactic.
I always try to offer up alternative solutions to see if anyone has one because like i said the anti trans people just seem to complain. Of course any penis men' room is a non starter.
perhaps your blunt approach is better though
the period statement was my attempt at levity. I know why they ask.
myyou
Response to MillennialDem (Reply #146)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
leftofcool
(19,460 posts)MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)The letter from a physician is usually to keep the trans person from getting arrested if they are in the "wrong" bathroom or locker room. It's not required to show it to private businesses unless there is a complaint.
I tossed my letter a long time ago even though I'm non-op (I've had hormones and other surgeries but have a penis)
Response to MillennialDem (Reply #134)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
Oneironaut
(5,538 posts)Response to Oneironaut (Reply #60)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
Oneironaut
(5,538 posts)This has nothing to do with womens' safety. The person in this story is a bigot.
Also, if a man was going to hurt women, they wouldn't need to claim to be transgender to do it. They would just force their way in. It's not like the womens' bathroom has some anti-male forcefield or something. I feel like the "transgender women might be dangerous" meme has bigoted origins, and I wish people would stop using it.
Also, fyi, many transpeople don't have procedures at all. They just identify as the other gender, or take hormones. You don't need to go to the doctor to be transgender - you just are.
Response to Oneironaut (Reply #65)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
Oneironaut
(5,538 posts)tell everyone that a "man" was using the womens' locker room. This is extremely bigoted, and is the reason the article says her membership was revoked. Transwomen are not dangerous. They are not "rapists in hiding" like the conservative idiots are making them out to be. The assertion that transwomen using the womens' restroom is 'dangerous' is a bigoted conservative meme.
I am not dismissing this woman's safety concerns - she should have stopped after hearing that the person in the restroom was a transwoman. Nothing was stopping her from waiting until this person left the locker room if she was uncomfortable. Instead, she went on a mission to "warn" all the women there about a nonexistent threat.
This woman clearly does not understand LGBT issues at all. Her actions prove that. She's like racists who say, "I really like black people, but... (racist bull crap)."
azmom
(5,208 posts)A major concern for me, but I also see this argument as bullshit. They are women. Plain and simple.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)in the way of proof of the complainers claims either.
Response to HappyMe (Reply #68)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)Why the hell should I take that woman at her word that the other woman wasn't feminine enough?
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)And I will preface the rest of my comment with this: "violence against women is deeply embedded in our society" - to use your words, with which I wholeheartedly agree (I expect you'll use it against me if I don't state this clearly).
But what I'm not seeing from you is a recognition that TRANS women are frequent victims of male violence, and that men's bathrooms or locker rooms are a potentially, particularly dangerous place for trans women.
You are creating divisions where there need be none. There is no evidence that the person in the OP who identifies as a woman is any threat to anyone. Victims of violence, be they cisfemale or trans women in any phase of transition, should be on the same side, no?
While you continue to mention that there is no information about the state of the trans woman's transitioning, there also no information that the trans woman is ANY THREAT to anyone in that facility. There is no information indicating that any other woman in that gym had a problem with the trans woman using the women's locker room. And we can assume, based on statistics, that many of the women who are members at the gym are victims of violence, and yet only one woman (who may or may not be concerned about violence) complained.
There is a statement from the gym indicating that the woman who got her membership canceled was bothering other female gym members every day, over and over.
She sounds like a bigot to me, and bigots should not be catered to.
This is an imperfect analogy, but it reminds of people who get freaked out by Muslims praying on an airplane and cause a fuss, resulting in the Muslims being removed from the plane, when it would make much more sense to kick off the person who can't deal with folks who aren't like them.
Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #73)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Transphobia is not feminist. I am a woman and your posts do not speak for me.
Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #83)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)"...the core assertion of this bill: Allowing people to use facilities that don't correspond with their biological sex is dangerous.
"I think that's common sense," Artiles said. "Whether or not a transgender person or a transitioning person falls into the description, we have to look at the consequences of this law."
<snip>
The bill also makes schools and businesses liable for monetary damages. A person can collect a financial award if they feel they've encountered a person in a public single-sex facility who shouldn't have been there.
<snip>
Citing some astronomically small chance that a man would dress up as a women to pretend to be trans to rape women because of bathroom equality laws is ludicrous, but the Republicans like to wave it around to make bigoted laws. You do the math.
Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #91)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)And the more you post, the more I begin to think that is the core of your argument.
You may as well be arguing that gay men shouldn't be teachers because they'll molest little boys.
Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #103)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)Which is that the complaining woman has a rational fear about her safety because of a trans woman.
The only way to assume that her fear may be rational is to assume that the likelihood of violence by a trans woman is particularly high. To project statistics about men being violent against women to this individual when there is NO evidence that she is violent has no basis. It looks like bigotry.
I'm not sure what other conclusion you expect me to come to.
And I'll reply here to the other post (sorry for confusing matters by engaging you on 2 subthreads).
On your other reply to me, you suggest that the complaining woman should be able to see the trans woman's medical information. Seriously? That is mind boggling to me. It's none of her business. The gym knows what it needs to know.
If the complaining woman doesn't trust that the gym is a safe place, she should find a new gym. Her safety is key. Of course. But her concerns about her safety, if they are based in bigotry, do not trump the safety of the transgendered woman. And there is no other basis for that fear, because it is not rational to assume that trans women are sociopathic, duplicitous men looking for opportunities to rape. No one else at the gym seems to have a problem with the trans woman, but they DO have a problem with the complaining woman who bothered them daily about this.
It seems pretty straightforward to me. Your line of reasoning only leads into dangerous territory. If you can't see that, I don't know what to say.
Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #109)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)And I didn't 'move to the bigotry argument'. The bigotry is part of the conversation whether or not you see it or want to admit it. I'm not saying you are a bigot - to be clear. I am saying it sounds like you are siding with a bigot for some reason.
Safety and perception of safety are two different things. We agree that the safety of everyone at the gym is vital. Where we diverge is that you seem to think the complainant's perception of her own safety trumps the right of the gym to be judgment free and trans-friendly and that it trumps the right of the trans woman's perception of safety (and maybe her actual safety too).
When that perception has no rational basis you are erring on the side of bigotry. Period. The trans woman has not been violent. There is no rational reason to assume she ever will be, anymore than any other person in that gym of any gender or identity. There is no evidence in the article that the gym has done anything to compromise anyone's actual safety.
You can't prove a negative. There is nothing that will prove 100% that the trans woman isn't a sociopathic rapist pretending to be trans. Even a doctor's note (which, according to you, seems to be the thing that could have avoided the conflict) isn't proof of this. A true sociopath might go to such lengths to legitimize his/her position and have easier access to raping vulnerable women. So if the complaining woman's real problem with this is her own safety (as opposed to bigotry), and she genuinely believes that her safety is compromised by the presence of a person who identifies as female but has male parts and apparently isn't 'passing' as female yet, then no doctor's note can or should satisfy her.
You emphasize "...the right of a woman to know that her gym takes her concerns about safety seriously..." . First, that goes both ways in this scenario. Second, you conclude that a doctor's note would have satisfied the complainant. For one thing, that's speculation, and I can do that too - if this woman is the bigot she sounds like, the doctor's note would probably not satisfy her "concerns". For another, she has NO RIGHT to see the trans woman's medical information. Again, it is mind-boggling that you think this would be acceptable to expect.
That's where the argument hits a wall, I guess, because you seem to think that publicizing her private medical records is not only appropriate, but that it will satisfy the complainant's concern. This is catering to bigotry, it is not protecting anyone's actual safety.
My guess is that this is the first trans woman that the complainant has ever recognized. Because if she knew other trans people, she would know that it takes a long time to physically transition, to 'pass', and for some folks it is impossible for one reason or another. But that doesn't change that person's identity. I stand by what I said - if the gym is comfortable with a self-identified trans woman using the woman's locker room, and there is no evidence that the trans woman has other motives, then the complainant has to decide if that's good enough for her. If it's not, then she needs to find another gym. Instead, she harassed other gym members and got herself booted.
Consequences.
Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #119)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)I tend to go into feisty mode too quickly on DU these days, so thanks for your patience in talking this through.
Peace to you too
Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #130)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)You weren't being dumb. We've all got something to learn, and I am glad you told me that I helped change your mind. I remember having a lot more discussions like this here years ago. These days it seems most people either have a veiled agenda or an attitude problem, or they suspect others of these things, and there is very little intellectually honest discussion, relatively speaking. And I tend to be the attitude-problem type lately. So I learned something too. It's nice to be reminded that behind these words-on-a-screen, we are all real people.
Ms. Toad
(34,119 posts)Safety and perception of safety are two different things. We agree that the safety of everyone at the gym is vital. Where we diverge is that you seem to think the complainant's perception of her own safety trumps the right of the gym to be judgment free and trans-friendly and that it trumps the right of the trans woman's perception of safety (and maybe her actual safety too).
When that perception has no rational basis you are erring on the side of bigotry. Period. The trans woman has not been violent. There is no rational reason to assume she ever will be, anymore than any other person in that gym of any gender or identity. There is no evidence in the article that the gym has done anything to compromise anyone's actual safety.
This is very similar to what I have been saying.
I would go a step sideways, as well, though. There are women (I was one of them for several years), who suffer from PTSD as a result of male bodies - specifically penises - being used as weapons against us. There were times when it hit really hard, and I needed a penis-free space, regardless of the gender of the person attached to it. I fully acknowledge that that was my own emotional baggage, and any safety issue I perceived at the time was just that - perception. While I agree that it is important to accommodate people with the disability I lived with for a couple of decades, that accommodation should not come by discriminating against transwomen who happen to have male body parts, or a more masculine presentation than average.
In other words, I would provide a handful of private bathrooms/showers in public facilities - and let anyone who feels the need for a private stall use them; not force transwomen to use the men's facilities or self-segregate (although many of my trans friends would prefer private facilities to being/making others uncomfortable). I have shared showering facilities with pre-surgical transwomen. The first time, both of us were profoundly uncomfortable, in part because each of us had timed our trip to the shower to avoid chance encounters where our presence (for her) and our reaction (for me) might make the other uncomfortable. We just both chose the same odd time to shower, and once we arrived there it would have been awkward to back out. We talked at length with after the fact, something I would highly recommend for all those claiming women's rooms should be trans-free for safety reasons. Who has the real safety issues might surprise you.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)but I still find it notable that any explicit concern about violence toward trans women was essentially an afterthought for you. You may have assumed that it would be understood, but it wasn't. Not at all. I still don't see it in edit 2. Not until the most recent edit.
I also find it interesting that you seem to assume I am a man. In terms of 'automatic pushback', I see it all the time here when I post on gender issues since many other people assume the same thing. It shouldn't matter, but I am a cis female. I identify as female. I am also a victim of sexual violence by a man. Just for the record.
I just don't see why it is so important to know exactly where in the transitioning process this woman is, and why that is some benchmark of whether or not it is acceptable for her to use the women's lockers. Especially if the layout is as described elsewhere on the thread, where the actual changing areas and showers are private. That seems to be your biggest concern, correct me if I'm wrong. I don't get it. Either we are inclusive of trans people or we aren't. I, for one, appreciate that this gym is inclusive and judgment free, I trust that they are making good decisions on an individual basis, and the only person in this scenario who seems to be a problem is the woman who bothered other members and complained so incessantly that they revoked her membership.
There are a lot of details we don't know and will likely never know. But from the sound of things, the woman who complained is a bigot and the trans woman is not a threat to anyone. "if and when a sociopath lies about his being transgender" has nothing -- exactly NOTHING -- to do with the case in the OP. If that's your argument against letting trans people use the appropriate bathroom for their identity if they aren't at the point where they 'pass', well, I don't know what to say. Because if they are a violent sociopath pretending to be trans, it doesn't matter if they pass or not.
Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #99)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
hunter
(38,339 posts)There are too many men who might not touch a woman in the men's locker room, but would react violently to a transgender person of either sex.
The safety of, and the acceptance of, the transgender person is a greater concern than the comfort of others in the locker room.
Transgender people are not strangers to concerns about personal safety.
Response to hunter (Reply #76)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)...then proceed to refer to the other woman as "he". That is NOT understanding.
Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #85)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)an elevator with a black man? Would you automatically assume that her probable racism was due go some past trauma, and hence excusable?
hunter
(38,339 posts)Do we demand "proof" that anyone else in the locker room isn't dangerous?
How do we know the person in the stall next to us isn't a dangerous terminator robot from the 25th century?
How do we know the building is wired properly and we won't get electrocuted in the showers?
If one trusts the gym enough to use their facilities, it only makes sense to trust they're not going to allow creepy or violent people to lurk in their locker rooms.
Sure, this member might have complained once that there was a "man" in the restroom, but once the management said they know her, not to worry, it ought to have ended there.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)And failed. She probably had long hair and women's clothes. I highly doubt she had short hair and a mustache and was in the women's locker room.
So often its assumed that it's just "some guy" who looks like an off duty male marine in thwomen's bathrommns
Response to MillennialDem (Reply #138)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)Demeter
(85,373 posts)I would only add, for those who are not steamed up like a locomotive, that a woman doesn't have to be raped to be traumatized, in the US or anywhere else.
Sensitivity to the real threats against women for being women starts at an early age for girls, and is constantly reinforced.
Several years of living as a woman is sufficient, if one leaves the house. Or even if one doesn't.
Response to Demeter (Reply #208)
Pooka Fey This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to Pooka Fey (Reply #210)
Post removed
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Wasn't hard to find, but it really shines a light on your perspective. Just remember, everything you post can be found, eventually.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x221988
Demeter
(85,373 posts)who nearly died of the surgery and is disabled and in a wheel chair. A health body turned into a basket case. The mind remains impaired...because the problem was not gender-related. That was just the popular excuse of the day, the fad, the newest consumer item, a way to avoid dealing with the issue.
So yes, that is exactly what I witnessed. And you can do with that fact exactly whatever your preconceived and idealistic notions want.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)At least one who will admit it.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)who nearly died of the surgery and is disabled and in a wheel chair. A health body turned into a basket case. The mind remains impaired...because the problem was not gender-related. That was just the popular excuse of the day, the fad, the newest consumer item, a way to avoid dealing with the issue.
So yes, that is exactly what I witnessed. And you can do with that fact exactly whatever your preconceived and idealistic notions want.
Response to Demeter (Reply #216)
Post removed
spinbaby
(15,092 posts)As a woman who frequents a gym, I thought about how i would react if a very masculine-looking person appeared in our locker room. I'm inclined to say that, if she minded her own business, I'd be just fine with it. Also, every gym locker room I've ever been in provides private changing areas for the unusually modest.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)People don't change in the main area. It isn't even particuarly private - very open. It's just for putting coats and purses in lockers. I can't imagine why it would be threatening at a Planet Fitness. You see a masculine looking woman putting stuff in a locker? OK. A masculine looking woman headed into the bathroom? OK, there are private stalls. Who cares? Even the shower/changing stalls are very private. I wouldn't even think anything about it.
I guess I can see asking the question if you thought there was a man there, but asking the front desk and having them explain should have been enough, and it sounds like this woman engaged in long term mean spirited gossping after the fact, which is what actually got her kicked out. Maybe instead of telling her that the woman was a transgender woman, they should have just said she was masculine appearing but a woman without specifying. I wonder how the complaining woman would have reacted to that?
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,123 posts)Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)lpbk2713
(42,770 posts)Maybe she'll be happy elsewhere.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)next to me in a locker-room, rest-room, next-bed in a hospital room---not even if it were Bruce Jenner.
If you want to think of me as a bigot, I'll have to think of you as ignorant of who I am.
Logical
(22,457 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)They can't use the men's room. It isn't a safe place for them. And they don't make our locker room unsafe, and shouldn't even make it uncomfortable the way Planet Fitness is set up, with no people changing clothes in front of each other.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I'm not as quick as some to ridicule the concerns of a 65-year old woman who says that she is made uncomfortable by penises in the locker room.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)They have a very hard time in situations like this and really try to blend in. They certainly wouldn't have their genitals out in a locker room. If it's a room that involved a public change area (which Planet Fitness isn't) then I'm sure they'd change in a bathroom stall.
It's understandable to be made uncomfortable, but not to sit and gossip for weeks as she did.
City Lights
(25,171 posts)Every locker room I've ever been in has stalled toilets that could be used for changing. Why do you assume that a transwoman would enter a locker room and whip out her penis? The transgendered people I know are very self-conscious about their bodies and the last thing they would do is whip out a body part.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)City Lights
(25,171 posts)then you shouldn't say things that are bigoted.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)I suppose you'll have to think of me as "ignorant".
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Being called a bigot, because that is what you are.
Oneironaut
(5,538 posts)ever went to Planet Fitness, and made it her mission to try and make the woman's life miserable.
If you see a transwoman in the locker room with you, she's a woman. She's using the correct locker room. Get over yourself.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Is this policy not potentially open to abuse?
TheKentuckian
(25,034 posts)fishwax
(29,149 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)we should not have handicapped parking because we have no proof they are handicapped??? WTF.
uponit7771
(90,370 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Revanchist
(1,375 posts)but I don't think we want to go back to that era.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)haele
(12,686 posts)And what "Dude" is going go through the time and effort - and pay -for a psych visit, which isn't free despite the ACA, just to get a note identifying him as a trans-woman so he can go into a woman's locker room and ogle all the hot chicks and MILFs?
Especially since gyms and fitness clubs cater to a wide variety of women, and the "hot chicks" are usually outnumbered by the females with bodies that most of these "dudes" think of as dogs - you know, the old farts, stressed-out women going through some sort of physical therapy, women desperately trying to lose weight, masculine looking women working out, etc., etc...
For every one woman who's body type that shallow type of guy might be attracted to, there's at least 20 who won't turn him on. And most of these places have privacy changing rooms and shower areas, so unless he's going to hang out in the shower area the entire time he's visiting, he's not going to see anything he wouldn't see at a beach, or in the gym area that he would be in as a man. And if he hangs out in the shower area, he's going to be caught very quickly, and that would more likely be go-to-jail as a sex offender.
So, it's not efficient or logical for any cis-male to pretend to be trans just to get into a woman's locker room, no matter what Hollywood likes to portray.
I suspect that the complainer would have been just as aghast to realize that she was showering near lesbians who could have been turned on just as much by her nekkidness as some hetero man there under false pretenses would have been.
I also suspect that this woman would have complained and warned other females in the locker room about any woman using the club she thought was a lesbian who might have designs on her virtue.
Yes, any policy is potentially open to abuse. But honestly it's not very likely this particular policy would be abused. Just my opinion from years and years experience in woman's locker rooms and common shower areas.
Haele
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)at close proximity to them in the locker room. Women of all ages and levels of attractiveness get raped and sexually assaulted.
haele
(12,686 posts)use the women's locker room? Especially women with that extra "Y" chromosome with larger female genitalia than normal, or had a large labia that can look like a ballsack - I know, I went to bootcamp, service and training school, and was stationed on a Navy ship; communal living with as many as 65 other women at a time for over 6 years - and a good 5% of them at any one time could have passed for men on a quick glance if you didn't know any better. And heck, there were a few women I served with over the years that made me uncomfortable taking a shower near, no matter if they were straight, bi-, or lesbian.
Maybe the club should ensure that there are no lesbians or bi-women? No one that could get jealous, or possessive, or flip out and try and use rape as a control method over some other woman they want? There were a lot of women's prison movies when I was younger, and there was always a "shower scene" in them that could be threatening or scary to most straight women who think rape is about sexual attraction.
Anyway, you originally brought hetero men - "dudes", as it were, pretending to be trans and sneaking into a woman's locker room for a peek and maybe more, and that's what my comments were addressing. The woman's discomfort issue with the potential for sexual assault from a trans has been discussed ad nauseum throughout the thread.
Haele
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Oneironaut
(5,538 posts)The "pervs are going to use this to get into the women's restroom" thing is a conservative meme. If some guy went into the women's room to be a perv, don't you think he would be thrown out anyways? What harm are transwomen doing in the women's locker room? Also, I've never heard of anyone identifying as female to watch women change, or whatever. That's ridiculous.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Any man can claim he identifies as a woman and go into women's locker rooms and bathroom in there.
madville
(7,413 posts)Basically people would have to use the facilities for the gender indicated on their drivers license or passport.
My gym has private showers and changing rooms, a few each for male and female and one unisex.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)What's on a person's ID. With the ability to have their ID match their gender identity.
Frankly I'd prefer to choose 'neutral'. Or 'both'. I think gender is a social construct that I don't understand.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Because transgender people in transition have quite a lot to go through before they can legally change gender markers on their ID (and some states make it basically impossible). Part of gender transition involves living full-time as one's identified gender while taking hormones etc; someone at this stage of gender transition probably hasn't been able to change their gender markers on identification, and using the public toilets and sex-segregated facilities that match their legally-identified gender is not really the most "sensible" option (since it involves trans men in women's toilets and changing rooms, and trans women in men's toilets and changing rooms). Trans people and especially trans women are already at a much higher risk of violence. Forcing trans women into men's facilities increases the risk of violence to them, while allowing them to use the facilities of their identified gender doesn't actually increase the risk of violence to cis women. This whole bathroom panic thing is pretty much aimed at trans women for some reason, people seem to forget that trans men actually exist; the idea that trans women are perverts who present some sort of risk to cis women in public facilities is pretty ugly bigotry honestly. (And gender *identity* is not in fact a social construct; there's a growing body of research that shows that it seems to have a biological/neurological basis. Gender *roles* are social constructs; gender *performance* and gender *norms* are social constructs, but gender itself is a thing that has social constructions applied to it.)
steve2470
(37,457 posts)demmiblue
(36,909 posts)Initech
(100,118 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)DU is full of them. It is disgusting. They refuse to acknowledge transgender women as women.
Personally, I'm glad the asshole lost her membership. I'm fed up with people who refuse to crack open a damn dictionary and read just a tiny little bit.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)MIRT was able to get rid of one of them when I posted a transgender topic a few days ago.
Amazing how some here are just as hateful towards LGBT persons as the religious right.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)it is all about, but they will have an opinion. I'm glad she lost her membership too!
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Tombstoned, I'll never know.
City Lights
(25,171 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)I hate them for some of the responses I see, but love them for being able to see who's making them.
It's nice to see transphobes show their true colors.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)is often a lot of narrow close-minded thinking going on IMO.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)there are many "for the lulz" and rw trolls here. No doubt in my mind. The jury system sucks. Sorry Skinner.
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)But, I agree, there are some who are here for other reasons and will never change. I also agree the jury system sucks. There are certain things for which people really shouldn't have to be educated, but it seems to be a never ending job.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)It's easy to tell the difference between "ignorance" (which we all have to varying degrees and on different topics) and "malice". I try to simply read and be educated, rather than open my big digital yap and remove all doubt.
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)Ignorance can be corrected, malice, not so much. You and I have both encountered this on a variety of different topics, so I know you understand where I am coming from in that regard. It also serves to make those distinctions as to who is really an ally to a cause and who is really an adversary.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)mine was being immersed in my best friend's struggles with her lesbian identity and then going to places where the word normal is meaningless, the people you meet are interesting, and then the realization dawns, they are just people, fun to hang out with, and thats all that matters. What I don't get is the problems many people have with transgender people. For me its simple, there experiences are valid, the scientific research backs them up, and most importantly, for transgender people's well being, acceptance seems the best approach, and it costs the rest of society nothing.
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)I am a cisgender gay male. To be honest, the transgender issue was something I had to learn more about and what it did do is help me actually understand opposition to gay issues, which, in turn, made it much easier for me as a gay man to argue against those "oppositions." There are still some areas of gender which confound me, but for the most part, I am very open to learning, as I am secure enough in my own identity as to not be threatened by "the other." I also see how "the other" can enrich my own experiences and how I can enrich others.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)fear. I also recognize my own limitations in my experiences and realize that, on a personal level, that I can't experience what the transgender experience, but this doesn't mean I can't sympathize.
Also, I think I'm more sympathetic because of the mental health issues I was raised around, mother was bipolar. So I recognize a very simple truth, its easier to change bodies than minds.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)is that there is a vocal subset of second-wave feminists who refuse to accept that transgender people exist, at all. These people are 100% convinced that "gender" is a social construct that reinforces patriarchy, and that trans women are men who are infiltrating and subverting women's spaces while reinforcing binary gender roles and that trans men are butch lesbians who've sold out to the patriarchy. There's a name for these people; they're called "trans-exclusionary radical feminists" (TERF, for short). Some of them have been both very influential and very harmful; one Janice Raymond, for instance, consulted with the National Institute of Medical Technology and helped insure the denial of any Medicare coverage for gender transition treatment (which was reversed only last May). There is also an increasingly anachronistic school of psychological and psychiatric thought that focuses on transgender people (always, for some reason, trans women, because, I suppose, anyone who's born male and identifies as a woman must have serious mental issues? Which is just another sign of patriarchal attitudes, really), that gender dysphoria in children, especially in assigned-male-at-birth children, is the result of a "disordered family system" and "excessive mothering" and weak paternal influence; and also that trans women are "autogynephiliac homosexuals" who sexually fetishise the idea of themselves as women.
The problem with these ideas about gender identity and the roots of gender dysphoria is that there is, as I said above, a growing body of evidence that indicates that gender identity has a biological/neurological basis (probably related in some way to prenatal hormone exposure). Both the TERF view of biological essentialism and the psychiatric view of "disorder" are, it seems, wrong in different ways, and the people who keep using them as justifications for their bigotry are very similar to scientific racists who will tell you that black people are obviously inferior because of century-old and discredited theories.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)RKP5637
(67,112 posts)to covertly, and some not so much, shift opinions toward the right. I've noticed a lot of change since I've been here and I've noticed some leave that had some pretty good ideas. The jury system is a good idea, but, it can be easily biased/infiltrated and the results skewed rightward.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)If I had admin privileges here, I'd be banhammering several people just for remarks made in this thread.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)If you did, it looks like the jurors disagreed with you (no hidden posts in this thread).
If you did not, Skinner will probably not even see the posts that concern you (the admins get copies of all alerts).
City Lights
(25,171 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Skimmed too quickly, my mistake.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your alert
Mail Message
On Sat Mar 7, 2015, 04:14 PM you sent an alert on the following post:
So can any dude claim to "identify as a woman" and get to use the women's locker room?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6326566
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
YOUR COMMENTS
Classic anti-transgender stereotyping, worthy of right-wing deluminaries like Bryan Fischer or Gordon Klingenschmitt. Why is this shit tolerated on DU?
JURY RESULTS
A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Sat Mar 7, 2015, 04:24 PM, and voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT ALONE.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: there is a learning curve - many folks still have "fears". the alerter could use this post as a learning
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is not a particularly bright post, but not worth of a "hide".
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)especiallg those on this board who are concern trolling about women's safety to cover your bigotry. Stop polluting this board with your bullshit.
City Lights
(25,171 posts)azmom
(5,208 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)It's bullshit!
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)I may re-up my lapsed membership with them.
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)Life's been upside down and sideways lately. It's good to see you too!
Behind the Aegis
(54,032 posts)...well, one good one now, the other is really congested due to an inner ear infection. LOL! Just remember, you have a friend with me.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Trans people have so few supporters when compared to other vulnerable groups, and so many who hate them, it's just natural that we should defend them.
Why are progressives piling on? They have enough shit in their lives to deal with already. They don't need the handful of supportive spaces taken from them by bigots. If you don't like trans people, if your purpose here is to mock and demean them, take that to the countless spaces where people agree with those hurtful views. There are no shortage of those who agree on both the left and right. Have some mercy. Leave DU as one of the few places where people aren't trying to make trans folks feel like shit.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)How about we supports the rights of transgender people without insulting women, calling them liars and bigots, and acknowledging the fact the women live in a hostile environment and have been raised to be cautious. And from there seek a solution that is fair.
Seems too difficult for some people here to see that there is more than one group that has needs.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)You either agree that trans people should be treated with respect, or you do not. Why would you make qualifying statements about basic human decency?
Reminds me of the folks who used to say "gay people can marry when....". Nope. Respecting them if isn't the same as respect.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)And your refusal to even TRY to understand how women might feel is sexist. It's NOT an either/or thing - pitting respect for trans people against acknowledging that women have legitimate reasons to feel cautious.
It's sexist to automatically discount the woman's version of what happened and simply dismiss her as a bigot. It lacks complete understanding of women's experience of harassment, assault, rape, and the fear of those things to not even acknowledge that those things come into play in this situation. Acknowledging that reality is NOT the same as saying transwomen are rapists, ffs. It does mean the women have been taught - by experience, by their parents, and by society to be fearful of being alone in private spaces with men (or people they perceive to be men) who they don't know. How difficult is that to grasp?
I would hope we can find a solution that respects everyone.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)That's the disconnect here. The challenge is to educate people that trans women are women, not mentally ill people and not men pretending to be women.
Until people accept that, transphobia will exist. Call me sexist all you like, I will not agree with transphobic comments no matter how many names you call me.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)I agree with your statements. I am asserting that bringing about those change requires understanding and sensitivity toward the difficulties and fears women face without just piling on those concerns with accusations of bigotry.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)or rather a "male slut-in-training". Screenshots with the full text are available via a google search.
Violet_Crumble
(35,980 posts)Because instead of going 'oh, okay. Thanks for letting me know' when the gym told her that what she thought was a man was actually a transgender woman, she went and started complaining to other women in the gym and making a nuisance of herself. Also, even after finding out that it was a transgender woman, she continues to refer to her as a him.
And I will dismiss that woman as a bigot because I went and had a search on Facebook and the only woman with that name living in that area has a Facebook page that if you scroll down and see the stuff that's not private, is full of RW anti-immigration religious stuff. I won't post a link to it just in case it's not the same woman, but I'm suspecting it may be...
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)The unfortunate fact is that they're in even greater danger- of assault, of rape, of murder- than cisgendered women.
I feel more sisterhood with mistreated trans women than bigoted cis women, and I'd fucking hope I'm not alone in that.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)When did you first imagine you speak for ALL women?
I can also rely on you to mischaracterize my point because we don't like each other. It's not about being threatened by transwomen - who I do believe should use women's restrooms and locker rooms. But I am seeking acknowledgement that some women feel threatened if they perceive men in spaces where they feel vulnerable because, you know, the insane amount of violence against women. Understand that or don't.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)helpful hint, here: trans women are not men. This sort of bullshit concern trolling dressed up as "the legitimate concerns of women" is transphobic bigotry. It's the same nonsense that's being used to justify transphobic bills currently in front of multiple state legislatures aimed at forcing people to use public facilities that match their birth-assigned gender, based on some pretty gross stereotypes: the ideas that trans women are men, are "deceptive", and are dangerous sex-crazed perverts whose gender transition is some sort of ruse to gain access to female-only spaces.
Matariki
(18,775 posts)It's been repeated over and over that trans women are not men. Yes. We agree.
Please explain to me how you expect women (particularly women who are fearful because of past abuse) to automatically process and trust that the person they are perceiving as a male in a 'female space' is a transwoman? Just pretending that women don't or should not have these fears does not help people come to a common understanding. Calling those fears 'bigoted' is extremely misogynist given the sad fucking reality of said fears.
There are multiple concerns of marginalized people in this issue. Finding a common solution is preferable than name calling.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)You seem to be awfully invested in this narrative you've constructed (that there was anything reasonable about this woman's complaint that there was a trans woman in the locker room). Would you find it reasonable if someone made such a complaint about a butch cis woman? If not, why not?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)I don't think you have the self-awareness to do that, so welcome to my ignore list.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)We'll accept you as women as long as you never need to change clothes, pee or otherwise enter any semi-private space?
Yeah, no.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)This conflict between the rights and safety of trans and cis women DOES NOT EXIST. There isn't any data that suggests it does. There's barely even anecdata to suggest it could.
There's some moldy theorizing that matches no current data on gender that a few theorists and their bigoted followers cling to. And that's it.
TERF bullshit isn't pro-woman, it isn't feminist, it's just sad.
azmom
(5,208 posts)It's hurtful and insensitive.
brewens
(13,637 posts)that claims to be female in. I had a college kid show up at a blood drive not long ago. Other than her wearing a pink vest, there was no indication she was a female. It might had helped if she had shaved first.
She came right out and told me she was in the process of transforming from male to female and asked if that was any kind of issue as far as blood donation. He drivers liscense even identified her as female. It is actually an issue. We are required by the FDA to register donors as the gender they were born as. There are some differences in male and female blood that are critical to other medical staff when transfusing patients. I'm not actually required to know the details on that.
She was pretty cool about the whole thing and did not get to donate for some other reason. I can't remember what. I'd have to say I can't blame women for being uncomfortable having someone like that changing and showering in their lockeroom. Using a bathroom where there are toilet stalls that provide some privacy I can see.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)I stand with my transgender brothers and sisters just as they have stood with me since literally the very first minute I came out.
b.durruti
(102 posts)marym625
(17,997 posts)Thanks for this. Now I know what gym to join
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)If nothing else, these threads do tend to clue me in on intolerant DUers. This one certainly did...