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[Omaha Steve]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Omaha Steve) on Wed Mar 11, 2015, 03:05 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

1. OMG

[dumbcat]

2. I don't think I get your point

Deer wearing a bulletproof vest? Why? Any bullet from a legal deer rifle will penetrate the bulletproof vest.

And the round being discussed (M855/SS109 green tip) is illegal for deer hunting in most states as it has too little energy to ensure a humane kill.

So what were you trying to say?

[Doctor_J]

3. That his senator said that the end of the ban on armor-piercing ammo is good for hunters

Perhaps you can tell us how the removal of the ban benefits hunters.

[dumbcat]

5. Ah! I didn't get that

But, it's good for hunters because it preserves a source of cheap practice ammo. We want hunters to be skilled, right, so they can make accurate, humane shots rather than have the poor animal suffer for a longer time? Or am I missing something else? I don't hunt because I don't want to hurt animals. But I am pretty up on terminal ballistics due to my former occupation.

[beevul]

6. The ammo in question does not meet the legal definition of "armor piercing".

The ammo in question does not meet the legal definition of "armor piercing".

And the ban on true armor piercing ammo remains.

Though clearly some have bought into the handwringing.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

8. M855 has a lead core so it does not qualify as "armor-piercing"

And plenty of hunters use .223, albeit for game smaller than deer.

[leftupnorth]

4. Virtually all center fire rifle rounds will penetrate police armor.

These aren't any more armor piercing rounds than your grandpas .30-.06 deer hunting rounds.

If the new threshold for banning ammo is that it can penetrate police armor - which is the lightest out there and designed for only stopping subsonic pistol rounds - then virtually all rifle ammo will be banned.

Please inform yourselves, people.

[Omaha Steve]

13. Link to a credible source?

Standard practice.

[leftupnorth]

16. Look it up yourself please

This is common knowledge to most people who have ever shot at things like a propane tank, steel plates, etc.

My buddy and I went out last weekend and shot big holes in an old propane tank with just 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 copper jacketed ammo, the cheapest you can buy...

I'll post a pic of the propane tank if you'd like.

[Omaha Steve]

18. OK let us ignore you don't have a link as is customary in GD or the DU in general

The Senator's letter says "hunters and sportsman". You just gave the reason this ammo isn't needed for either!

[leftupnorth]

19. I did?

Are there any centerfire rifle rounds that will not penetrate the kind of armor they are talking about?

[Omaha Steve]

22. You just proved this round isn't nessesary

There are already a number of rounds capable for hunting the Senator didn't address.

As I worked for the Omaha Police Dept. before I retired I got to hear from officers first hand the fear of ammo that can penetrate a vest. Have you ever talked to an officer about being under fire OR even considered their point of view?

Thank you!!!!

OS

[leftupnorth]

24. No I haven't, since I don't run with authoritarians normally but

The benefits of having a tipped round like that are significant for hunting.

Would you like me to explain why?

[Omaha Steve]

27. Why you came out from under a rock for THIS post?

Your stats: Number of posts, last 90 days: 7 Had nothing to do with ammo!

So how do POLICE in your neck of the woods feel about this? Go on. Tell me they are happy about this.

OS

[leftupnorth]

29. I normally lurk here, but I shoot and hunt frequently.

Your post enticed me to log in and post, hoping to inform you a bit and spur you and others to do a little research before wringing your hands. But I suppose you could just ignore me and the other posters who have made similar posts addressing your 'concerns' and continue the propaganda charade.

[Omaha Steve]

30. Even a lurker knows to post a link in support of an opinion

It seems from other posts it is better to have cheap ammo that can kill cops than to ban it?

[appal_jack]

28. The point is not that it can penetrate a vest, because all rifle rounds can penetrate vests.

Police are right to be extra afraid of rifle fire.

But like many sensible and peaceable sportsmen, I opposed the m855 ban for two reasons:

1) A ban on m855 because it could be used in a 'handgun' (albeit an awkward one that looks more like a rifle without a stock than an actual pistol) would mean that all rifle rounds in calibers where 'handguns' (no matter how awkwrd and impractical) exist could be banned.

&

2) Banning m855 would have raised the cost of shooting quite a bit. Surplus m855 should fall to ~$0.30 or less with the vast quantity about to be sold by variouss NATO countries switching to the newer m855 A-1. Why shouldn't citiens be able to buy this instead of paying ~$0.50 a round for similar ammo?



-app

[sir pball]

17. Wikipedia summary of NIJ protection levels:

Level IIIA:

New armor protects against 8.1 g (125 gr) .357 SIG FMJ Flat Nose (FN) bullets at a velocity of 448 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (1470 ft/s ± 30 ft/s) and 15.6 g (240 gr) .44 Magnum Semi Jacketed Hollow Point (SJHP) bullets at a velocity of 436 m/s (1430 ft/s ± 30 ft/s). Conditioned armor protects against 8.1 g (125 gr) .357 SIG FMJ Flat Nose (FN) bullets at a velocity of 430 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (1410 ft/s ± 30 ft/s) and 15.6 g (240 gr) .44 Magnum Semi Jacketed Hollow Point (SJHP) bullets at a velocity of 408 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (1340 ft/s ± 30 ft/s). It also provides protection against most handgun threats, as well as the threats mentioned in Types I, IIA, and II.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletproof_vest#Performance_standards

IIIA is the most protective soft body armor available; it's the big bulky stuff that SWAT teams and the military wear outside their uniforms. Undershirt armor is usually a lower level, but even the "tactical" stuff is rated to only stop powerful handgun fire. Rifle protection begins at level III, which must be hard-plate (metal or ceramic) material and is generally a smaller piece held in a pocket on the front of the vest. Sufficient?

[leftupnorth]

25. This will get a good ignoring....

Good post.

[greatlaurel]

7. I see you already got a post from the humor challenged gun faction.

Great post. Thanks for sharing, Steve. The poor gun culture people really are not able to figure out how they are being manipulated by the gun marketers to waste so much money buying more junk they do not need. All the marketers need to do to boost sales is put out some suggestion about Obama and gun regulation and they flock to buy more. It is a truly brilliant, but evil, marketing strategy.

You know, I grew up in a hunting family with lots of time spent target shooting. It was a relatively inexpensive past time, which provided us with lots of food. I am just astounded at how much money the gun marketers are able suck up from these folks, in this day and age. It is not just the guns, but the massive amounts of money spent on the accoutrements. Like I said earlier, brilliant marketing to be able to extract more profits from an ever shrinking demographic.

[mwrguy]

9. so ammunition companies got the ATF to propose banning this ammo?

[leftupnorth]

11. I bet it's not too far off from that.

Way too much collusion between business and government.

[sir pball]

15. Actually that seems like one of the more reasonable theories at this point.

NATO/US military have switched to a new standard, so there's probably billions of the old rounds sitting around waiting to be surplused. Float a ban, ???, profit!

[leftupnorth]

10. ATF - best ammo salespeople EVER!

You couldn't buy this stuff anywhere after they announced the ban. Hundreds of thousands of rounds gone in a matter of hours.

[greatlaurel]

14. Exactly. Great post, thanks for the information. These hysterical gun buying panics are common now.

Since I do not hang out in gun culture or work for the NRA as a troll, it sounded like this ammo was OK by the ATF for a long gun, but got attention from the ATF if they marketed it to be used in a handgun. It would be a brilliant marketing ploy to do that to get people to panic buy, once it is being looked at by the ATF. Fools and their money are so easily parted. It is pretty sad.

[Eleanors38]

20. ATF got 80k comments in short order from the laugh-a-minute gun owners...

Gun-control: The gift to the GOP that keeps on giving.

[Brickbat]

12. I disagree with this being GD material.

[Eleanors38]

21. depends who's in the pilot house one min. to the next. But I agree with you.

[aikoaiko]

23. I'm glad, but it will take 2 years before the ammo is back to .45/red

[Dont call me Shirley]

26. IKR! I mean deer should be protecting themselves from these predatorial gunslingers.