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[MineralMan]

This message was self-deleted by its author (MineralMan) on Fri Mar 13, 2015, 02:06 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

1. Give us a hint?

Is this something that would be obvious to a non-American?

[tridim]

3. It's a lynching scene.

I can't believe this is real, but I guess nothing is shocking any more.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

5. Are you sure?

?Roman soldiers?Athena? and ?lions? are not things I associate with lynching.

I'm not confident you're wrong, but I'm severely sceptical, unless you have background information I don't.

[NM_Birder]

62. racists frequently dressed up as roman soldiers

to perform lynchings, while the white sheets of the KKK were being washed.

[uppityperson]

84. Huh, I did not know that. Thanks for the info.

[NM_Birder]

85. Looking at it further, I'm convinced

It's Wimpy demanding a hamburger today.

[blm]

68. Most statues of Athena as warrior have ankle length garb.

.

[MineralMan]

10. The sign is in front of their headquarters, and can be seen in other

photographs as well.

[oldandhappy]

2. SAE is not an isolated case.

[petronius]

4. I see Athena, Aslan, Puss-in-Boots, and Wimpy

Apparently, they're all late to class...

[teenagebambam]

6. Also puzzled

as to how any of this represents lynching

[tkmorris]

7. I'm not getting the joke I guess

[riderinthestorm]

8. Ok, I see a Roman soldier, a lion and a fat guy with a derby

Yes they're all running but I'm not seeing the implications unless you think the three are somehow connected to chasing a black guy? I'm not sure how that's connected?

[MineralMan]

9. The figure on the left is an African warrior,

complete with spear. The middle figure is a lion. The man and the dog are chasing them back to Africa.

The headdress on the left figure is iconic for an African warrior, and the lion is self explanatory. The hat on the rightmost figure is a white man's hat.

Sorry. It seemed pretty clear to me.

[Bonx]

14. Yeah, I think that's completely wrong, and somewhat bizarre.

[WillowTree]

15. Can you show an example of an "headdress....for an African warrior" that looks like that?

[snooper2]

21. LOL, no it isn't come on you are smarter than that

[KittyWampus]

57. You are so totally wrong it's laughable. Honestly laughable. It is a roman warrior

wearing a galea with a crest of horse hair.

I THINK YOU SHOULD DELETE THIS THREAD. It ends up either making you look like you are mocking the problem or really misguided.

[Maedhros]

71. I think your interpretation is incorrect.

At first glance I saw a Roman warrior. After perusing this site: http://www.sae.net/page.aspx?pid=340, I'm pretty sure that the figure is Minerva, the Roman goddess of wisdom and sponsor of arts, trade and strategy.

[Cal Carpenter]

79. Africa is a big place

Can you specify the particular culture or region this particular... um... 'African warrior' might be from?

Or do all "African warriors" look like that?

[jberryhill]

87. That's f-ing crazy right there MM

Fraternities refer to themselves as "Greek".

Ever notice the Greek letters they use for their names.

Do you have any clue, whatsoever, of what a Greek warrior looks like?

[Xyzse]

11. I don't see it in the sign.

I need help I guess.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

12. 1856 the birth of the republican party

[B2G]

13. Their fraternity symbols include

Minerva and a lion, which 2 of those figures on the sign clearly represent.

I'm not sure why Oliver Hardy is chasing them though.

[ND-Dem]

16. The lead figure is very clearly Minerva (Athena), not an african warrior.

Coat-of-Arms

The coat-of-arms is a shield quartered, each quarter having a specific meaning to ΣAE brothers. A helmet, mantling, and a crest surmount the shield. The crest depicts Minerva, a lion, and the Greek letters ΦΑ in a wreath...

The Lion represents courage, strength, and heart...Minerva, the goddess of wisdom, was the daughter of Jupiter (Zeus)...

http://www.mizzousae.net/insignia


https://www.pinterest.com/pin/38421403041450883/

https://www.google.com/search?q=sae+minerva+lion&biw=950&bih=554&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=0woDVbClO4KsogSEv4DIAg&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#imgdii=_&imgrc=Wcb-P4rb41zPfM%253A%3BOeKHwZs4INMEyM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fetc.usf.edu%252Fclippix%252Fpix%252Fminerva-detail_medium.jpg%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.pinterest.com%252Fayezayuh%252Fsae%252F%3B800%3B533

https://www.google.com/search?q=sae+minerva+lion&biw=950&bih=554&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=0woDVbClO4KsogSEv4DIAg&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#imgdii=_&imgrc=SlTtoASN0gBweM%253A%3BOeKHwZs4INMEyM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fs-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com%252F236x%252Fc9%252Fe2%252Fd5%252Fc9e2d512a75daa9b6d91f56eb7400ba9.jpg%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.pinterest.com%252Fayezayuh%252Fsae%252F%3B236%3B236

[MineralMan]

18. Could be, but that wasn't my interpretation of it.

The left figure doesn't look like a female figure in any way to me.

[ND-Dem]

23. well then you haven't looked at many pictures or statues of athena/minerva.

she's a warrior-goddess.

[jberryhill]

90. Your interpretation is insane

Gee, uh, why would a fraternity use GREEK letters

[uponit7771]

17. Please see the "root" of the rhyme "Catch a Tiger By the Toe"... it's not a tiger ....

This version was similar to that reported as the most common version among American schoolchildren in 1888

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eeny,_meeny,_miny,_moe

[MineralMan]

19. Interesting.

[Takket]

20. It's Minerva

Wiki page makes it clear Minerva and the lion are two of their symbols. I don't know how the guy on the end fits in lol

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_Alpha_Epsilon

[snooper2]

24. The fat guy at the end means run so you don't become lazy bastards

[steve2470]

22. interesting topic... I'm reading all feedback to make up my mind

very OT, but I was wrong in the thread about the poor service at the fast food place. You were correct, imho. Trivial, but at least I'm honest about my errors.

[NCTraveler]

25. I think I am missing someith from some of the replies.

The guy on the right seems to be a likeness of the Monopoly guy. I am going to assume a fat rich white man with a top hat. That is the image I get. Then the lion is obvious. Then we get to what the lion is chasing. Seems to have what resembles Roman headwear on along with a spear. None of that really makes sense specially considering the "Roman" is facing away from the lion. With what appears to be an image from the last century "Man with top hat" why would their be an ancient Roman warrior running from the lion and the image resembling wealth. No one would think this was acceptable if one change in this picture was made. If the "Romans" hat was removed it would be blatant. Everyone who saw it would then see it as a blatantly racist sign. It would immediately conjure thoughts of "spear chucker."

Reading the rest of the replies doesn't convince me it is not a racist image. It is not unified in any way. The images cross centuries in a non-sensical manner.

[MineralMan]

26. That's how I saw it, too.

Where are they running, and why?

[NCTraveler]

28. I added one sentence almost immediatley after you replied.

The last sentence in my post. Didn't really change anything. The combination of characters is what makes me believe it very well could have been designed with racist intentions. If people are going to outright claim who the person on the left is, they need to tell me why they are being chased by a lion and a wealth man from different era's.

If not racist, the appearance of it is there.

[aikoaiko]

44. I think its Paddy Murphy.

http://saebgsu.com/about/

The Story of Paddy Murphy
The story and legacy of Paddy Murphy has easily become one of the greatest traditions of any national fraternity. The American 1920′s saw an amendment to the Constitution which put the country’s alcohol consumption to an end. However, it did not entirely cease due to the rise of bootlegging which allowed people to enjoy their beverages once again. Paddy Murphy was said to be a bootlegger working for Al Capone out of Chicago. Paddy ran bootlegging deals for Capone for many years until a US prohibition agent, Elliott Ness, become hot on Murphy’s case. After searching for Murphy for quite some time, Ness finally receives a tip one night that Murphy can be found unloading a bootlegged ship at a downtown Chicago dock. Ness and the boys get down there and sure enough, they find Paddy on the docks. Ness and Murphy get into a heated gun battle, and Ness eventually gets a hit on Murphy sending him to the ground. Ness approaches the neutralized Murphy and somewhere in the discussion, Murphy reveals that he is a member of Sigma Alpha Epsilon. Ness, being a member himself, realizes he had just killed his own brother. Ness and Murphy exchange the secret SAE handshake, and Murphy dies. Ness, feeling so guilty about his actions, orders for Murphy to have a large, city-wide funeral service in remembrance of his fallen brother.

Around the same time every year (typically between March and May), chapters of Sigma Alpha Epsilon launch a Paddy Murphy week, at the conclusion of which they elect a Paddy Murphy from among their graduating seniors and have a mock funeral procession through campus. This ceremony is used to congratulate our graduating seniors and remind them of one important thing as they enter the post-college world: SAE’s are everywhere and could be anyone.

Maybe. I don't know. Fraternities like their symbols.

[NCTraveler]

49. Thanks for that.

Very interesting. It seems to set the stage at the college level that would create a culture of protection at all costs.

[aikoaiko]

50. Yes, that is part of the benefit of club membership.

[NCTraveler]

51. Not all clubs but I do get your point.

I am a member of a club that will not tolerate any shenanigans. We benefit greatly from organizing in the manner we do and keeping it clean. Ensuring legality and ethics among members is foremost.

[tridim]

29. +1

It's like a dog whistle. It MUST be interpreted in the context of what we now know about SAE's institutional racism. Ignoring the context is disingenuous.

How clever, SAE marketing.

[MADem]

80. "Minerva Taming the Lion" is the theme of their stupid organization.

The outfit is racist as hell, but the sign is not. The sign is a joke--obviously the lion is getting the better of Minerva in this image.

See the Pledge Quiz I posted way downthread. This is probably the ONLY thing that is NOT racist that I've seen in the news about these idiots of late.

[NCTraveler]

83. I have since learned that.

Seems they also put a criminal with an interesting history as the "top dog" on the sign. Really don't have a problem with that as it kind of makes it fun in a frat way. Thanks for the input and education. Always appreciated.

[aikoaiko]

27. Is your OP satire mocking those confronting the racism of SAE?

[MineralMan]

31. No, it is not. Given what has happened,

I see this as symbolic. Others have seen it differently. I stand by my interpretation.

If you want to see African warrior headdresses, look up images of Shaka Zulu. The profile of the left figure is not that of a woman, and does not appear to represent Athena to me. It's clearly a robust man.

I suppose everyone will interpret it in their own way. I see it as a encoded image. You may see it differently.

[ND-Dem]

46. zulu warriors:

http://zar.co.za/shaka.htm

https://www.google.com/search?q=zulu+warrior&biw=950&bih=554&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=fhsDVe_0KczxoATvkYAo&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ



Minerva/Athena:











etc:

https://www.google.com/search?q=athena+minerva&biw=950&bih=554&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=4BYDVa7cB8TkoASG7IKICw&ved=0CDEQsAQ#tbm=isch&q=minerva&imgdii=_

[cyberswede]

47. The Minerva figure is obvious

She is one of the symbols of the fraternity. Shaka Zulu is not.

That the figure doesn't look like a woman to you is immaterial. Good lord.

Some "interpretations" are just plain wrong:

[Vattel]

81. "I stand by my interpretation." Why? The evidence is all against you.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

30. a more traditional viewing of the symbols might lead one to see

Minerva = Knowledge/Wisdom
Lion = Courage/Bravery
Dog = Loyalty/Friendship (assuming that's a dog)

The guy on the end puzzles me. Perhaps someone chasing after all those things?

sP

[GummyBearz]

32. You missed the tree!

It must be there for lynching purposes. Jump on the bandwagon its obvious!

[MineralMan]

34. Yes, it could be explained that way.

Or, it could be explained the way I did. It's clearly symbolic of something. Where are they running? Is the man on the right and the dog chasing the other two figures? Look at it that way, and the symbolism suggests itself. Otherwise, how to explain the running, if it's Minerva and the brave lion? It's a chase scene.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

36. well, knowing that the lion and Minerva

are traditional Sigma Alpha Epsilon symbols, your interpretation falls pretty flat. i guess you will see what you want to see.

sP

oh, and if one were chasing after something, as i suggested in my post to which you are replying, running might be the proper way to depict that.

[cyberswede]

41. Pursuing knowledge, courage, and friendship

[cyberswede]

40. Yes - pursuing knowledge, courage, and friendship

Seems logical to me. The idea that this sign is a "lynching" scenario in any way seems ridicuolous.

Edit: that said, that doesn't mean the members of this organization are NOT racist.

Discriminatory incidents
See also: 2015 University of Oklahoma Sigma Alpha Epsilon racial incident

In 1982 SAE members at the University of Cincinnati were suspended for a racially insensitive party corresponding with Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday.[21]

In 2013, SAE members at Washington University in St. Louis were suspended for singing racial slurs to African-American Students.[22]

In 2014, the chapter at Clemson University hosted a "Cripmas" party in reference to Southern California based African-American crips gang. The chapter "suspended all activity indefinitely", according to the SAE national office.[23][24][25] Also, in 2014, SAE members at the University of Arizona were suspended for attacking Alpha Epsilon Pi, a Jewish fraternity.[26][27][23]

The national organization of Sigma Alpha Epsilon closed the University of Oklahoma chapter in March, 2015 after a video surfaced showing members chanting a song which featured the racial slur, "nigger," and made reference to lynching. The chant, set to melody of the popular children's song, "If You're Happy and You Know It", declares, "There will never be a nigger in SAE. You can hang him from a tree, but he can never sign with me."[28] Sigma Alpha Epsilon suspended the charter of the involved chapter and suspended its members on March 8, 2015.[2] The University of Oklahoma president, David Boren, closed the fraternity chapter,[29] giving members two days to vacate the fraternity's campus dwellings.[30] On March 10, 2015, two students identified in the video were expelled from the university.[31][32]

[ProdigalJunkMail]

42. indeed.... n/t

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

33. How many arms does that fat guy have?

I'm not sure that's a hat on him. If it is, he would appear to have three arms. One in front and up, one in back and down, and the one holding the 'hat'.

[MineralMan]

35. I think the hat is flying off his head.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

37. that was my thought as well... not sure WHAT we're looking at n/t

[NM_Birder]

67. It's Wimpy demanding a hamburger today from a roman soldier.

fucking racist Wimpy

[flying rabbit]

72. That's obvious,

but what about the lion? Which rhymes with Zion... Hmm...

[tularetom]

38. The whole organization may well be racist but that sign isn't proof of it

If they wanted to overtly display their racism they could have done a much better job. They could change the spear carrying figure to a lawn jockey holding a lantern, dangle a noose from the branches of the tree and put a pointy hood on the fat guy. Maybe they could even place a watermelon on the ground under the tree. But they didn't do any of that.

If they were trying to give a wink wink nudge nudge hint of their racism, they were far too sub-tile for me.

[Dreamer Tatum]

39. It looks like Wimpy from Popeye chasing a lion who is chasing the USC mascot

and as such, this is a ridiculous OP.

[ND-Dem]

43. +100

[petronius]

45. I've been thinking about this for a while, and it's pretty clear we're all missing

a lot of the meaning:

The first figure is clearly Athena (Minerva in the Roman). Minerva is also a woman, the significance of which will be clear shortly. The lion is the symbol of House Lannister, which in itself is irrelevant, but since we've been primed to think of the Romans by the presence of Minerva, we would also note that "Lannister" sounds a lot like lanista. A lanista in ancient Rome was a trainer of gladiators, the quintessential slave owner. The last figure represents the frat man himself: plump, to suggest satiety, wealth, power. The hat is being lifted from his head by a flame, which is clearly a Christian reference, indicative of the touch of the Holy Spirit.

So taken all together, the sign states that the frat man has a god-given right to wealth and power, to chase after women (misogyny, rapey-ness), and to own slaves (racism). Also to own dogs. (Or cats. Whatever that little thing is.)

There's also a clear environmental subtext: read from right to left, the trees get smaller. The prehistoric founders of this fraternity were clearly signalling a concern about climate change, drought, desertification...

[Dreamer Tatum]

48. Nah. It's Wimpy trying to bum burger money from a Trojan.

I do salute you for having time to waste on dreaming up nonsense, though.

[snooper2]

69. This has to be awesome sarcasm

or, rum and coke?

[WillowTree]

91. Amazing how far people will stretch to see what they want to see.

[tridim]

53. So the fact that SAE is deeply rooted in racism has no bearing whatsoever?

It's deeply insulting that you're joking about this.

[Dreamer Tatum]

55. Deeply insulting to whom? Wimpy fans, or USC fans?

I am of the belief that while SAE may well have more than its share of racists, it does not exist because it is racist.

I am not one of the DUers who sees something outrageous and then bends himself into a pretzel trying to paint everything even remotely related in the same light.

Sorry you don't like it.

[tridim]

56. How do you know it doesn't exist becase of racism?

Are you a member?

[Dreamer Tatum]

65. Sorry, I don't play those games.

I'm not a member, nor do I know any members.

In any case, I didn't say it doesn't exist because of racism. I said I don't believe it exists to promulgate racism. I am certain that many of its members are racists, but I am not certain that racism is integral to the organization. I understand fully that my refusal to brand them as such makes me look racist/naive/blahblahblah to the weak-minded, but whatever. Not my cross to bear.

[ND-Dem]

58. you don't need to make up stuff to show sae's racism. this op is bs.

[tridim]

59. I'm not making anything up.

I know a dog whistle when I see/hear it.

Open your eyes.

[ND-Dem]

61. didn't mean *you,* sorry. that was supposed to be the universal 'you'

("people don't need to make stuff up&quot though it may not have come off as such.

I'd say the dog whistle is MM's OP, not the SAE sign. Minerva and the lion have been symbols of the fraternity for a very long time, so if anyone's being chased, it's them (wisdom and strength), not Shaka Zulu, for chrissake.

[Special Prosciuto]

52. To me it looks like John Bull chasing King Kamehameha.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

54. A Greek or Roman warrior, a lion, a dog, and a fat guy who's losing his hat.

I don't know what it means, but I don't see racism, either.

[Buns_of_Fire]

60. I was always rotten at "Magic Eye" things.

I see Minerva jumping over an Interstate Highway sign, closely followed by a lion, a dog, and Wimpy wearing a robber's mask and a freshman beanie (think of it as a photographic negative), all in pursuit of wisdom, knowledge, and a hamburger for which they will gladly pay you Tuesday.

Now if they REALLY wanted to be blatantly racist, they could adopt a variation of the South Park flag (Google "south park flag" if you're so inclined).

But as it stands right now, any racist message in that sign is far too subtle for my fried brain to discern. And if it's too subtle for people around here, it's CERTAINLY too subtle for the minds of the people they'd be trying to reach with such a dogwhistle.

[ND-Dem]

64. But the OP says the meaning is "unmistakable"...

[Buns_of_Fire]

73. It might be. I'm notoriously obtuse about such things.

I'm the guy who thinks that the ink blots in a Rorschach test are always somebody's naughty bits. Or a bat. Or sometimes a bat's naughty bits.

[surrealAmerican]

63. Why are you looking for subtle hints ...

... when they've already blatantly displayed their racism?

Also, I don't think that sign shows what you think it does.

[NM_Birder]

66. actually I think you have it back wards,

That's Wimpy and his house cat demanding a hamburger today from a roman soldier. That's not a tree, it's a ceremonial mushroom cloud, representing the future destruction of the world by white college fraternities.

[handmade34]

70. from Wikipedia... just sayin'

In 1982 SAE members at the University of Cincinnati were suspended for a racially insensitive party corresponding with Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday.[21]

In 2013, SAE members at Washington University in St. Louis were suspended for singing racial slurs to African-American Students.[22]

In 2014, the chapter at Clemson University hosted a "Cripmas" party in reference to Southern California based African-American crips gang. The chapter "suspended all activity indefinitely", according to the SAE national office.[23][24][25] Also, in 2014, SAE members at the University of Arizona were suspended for attacking Alpha Epsilon Pi, a Jewish fraternity

Sigma Alpha Epsilon has had nine deaths linked to drinking, drugs and hazing since 2006, more than any other Greek organization, according to data compiled by Bloomberg.[5] More than 100 chapters have been disciplined since 2007, with at least fifteen suspended or closed since 2010. A potential initiate to the SAE chapter at Salisbury University in Maryland alleged that he was beaten with a paddle, forced to drink alcohol to the point of losing consciousness and confined in a basement for nine hours without access to food, water or a bathroom while being subjected to music torture, an experience described as being "almost like Guantanamo Bay". The allegations were verified by a university investigation that led to the suspension of the chapter on the grounds that it had violated Salisbury policies on alcohol, hazing, and threats or acts of violence.[5]

In May 2013, members of the Arizona State Chapter allegedly left an underage member outside a hospital with a note saying "Ive been drinking and I need some help." The 20-year-old survived after nearly 20 shots of tequila resulting in a near lethal blood alcohol content of 0.47%, according to doctors..[11]

As a result of these incidents, student members pay among the highest rates for liability insurance of any fraternity.[5] In March 2014 JPMorgan Chase stopped managing an investment account of SAE's charitable foundation, with bad publicity from hazing as the likely cause.[12]

[Buns_of_Fire]

77. There's a reason "frat boy" tends to be used as a pejorative.

And these fools are managing to sully the reputation of the respectable fraternities. (I can't name any offhand, but I know they exist.)

Perhaps they should change their name to Kappa Kappa Kappa and be done with it.

[LeftinOH]

89. Kappa Kappa Kappa actually exists!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kappa_Kappa_Kappa

They pre-date the better-known KKK that we all know and (don't) love, so they claim original ownership of the letters. Even so, they tend to use the shorthand moniker "Tri-Kap". They are found only at Dartmouth - and they also appear to be a pretty diverse group.

[Codeine]

74. I very, very rarely disagree with you.

But you're so wrong on this tortured interpretation of that sign as to be laughable.

None of which is to say the frat isn't racist. They're ridiculously so.

[Dreamer Tatum]

75. I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a +1 today. nt

[MADem]

76. Sorry, MM--huge fail on this OP. SAE is racist as all get-out, but their sign isn't.

That's not what you think it is. Minerva taming a lion is a central feature of the stupid organization.

Here's their little "pledge quiz"--count the number of times Minerva is referenced:

http://quizlet.com/1294113/115-questions-every-pledge-should-know-flash-cards/

I agree with those who say you should just close this up and let it sink. It's a stinker.

[deutsey]

78. +1

[B2G]

82. I pointed this out in post 13, but

that didn't stop him.

[Orsino]

88. +1. I note that it ends with "The True Gentleman."

"The True Gentleman: The True Gentleman is the man whose conduct proceeds from good will and acute sense of propriety, and whose self control is equal to all emergencies; who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity; who is himself humbled if necessity compels him to humble another; who does not flatter wealth, cringe before power, or boast of his own possessions or achievements; who speaks with frankness but always with sincerity and sympathy; whose deed follows his word; who thinks of the rights and feelings of others rather than his own; and who appears well in any company, a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe."

I wonder whether SAE has excommunicated any of the chant participants?

[jberryhill]

92. It's "unmistakable", MADem

I'd love to see CTYankee show up to opine on what is "unmistakable" here.

[Android3.14]

86. The evidence is anything but "clear as day"

Normally I'm with you on most issues, but your interpretation of this sign looks like someone is just trying to find more reason to be offended, even if the reasons makes no sense.

Try breathing into a paper bag for a few moments.