J'accuse: minimization and "explanation" of anti-semitic hate crimes by some DU posters.

[Kurska]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Autumn (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Last edited Tue Mar 24, 2015, 02:28 PM - Edit history (5)

No don't tell me there aren't. It happens in nearly every thread about an anti-semitic incident. Invariably someone will bring up how Israel is really the one to blame (as if we would accept or explain violent actions against other minorities with the actions of other members of the minority half a world away). There are serial offenders who are doing this. Never is their initial response condemnation, it is always some kind of explanation mixed in with them swearing up and down they don't actually approve of the violence.

If I tried to explain a brutal attack on a Muslim with "Those horrible Saudis and their awful actions towards women and gays, they are the ones really responsible for this violence", I would be justifiably hidden. However this has become all the vogue whenever Jews are attacked.

Personally, I'm really sick of it. However, juries continue to leave these posts up. I bet my thread about this has a higher chance of being hidden than any of these posts do, but personally I'm beyond the point of caring. Responding to any attack on a minority with anything besides immediate and uncompromising condemnation makes you a bad person. No you aren't providing "context" hate crimes don't need "context', hate crimes are hate crimes. I don't care if other members of that minority are doing things you don't like in a different country. That is called collective guilt and we all know it is wrong.

We're seeing open anti-semitic slurs being thrown and then defended by stormfront memes like "hatred of jews doesn't deserve it's own word so we need to reclaim anti-semitic to mean all semitic peoples". Statements like "the jews control hollywood" and posting lists of Jewish congress people who have "Dual Israeli citizenship" (completely untrue) go unhidden. Jew hatred on DU simply needs to stop. We are better than this. There is plenty of room to criticize Israel and their domestic+foreign policy without making DU look like clearing house of ideas that should have died with the third reich. This is not acceptable and needs to be addressed by moderators if juries aren't willing to do it.

[Xipe Totec]

1. by SOME DU posters. nt

[Kurska]

3. Yeah you're right, I don't want to paint all of DU with a broad brush.

These people aren't a majority, even if they are becoming more and more vocal.

Updated the title.

[gratuitous]

2. I'm not sure about the exact posts you're talking about

But I would say that there is a difference between an anti-semitic incident and an incident where the victim is Jewish. At least in most people's minds.

[Kurska]

4. Go look at a recent thread about a synagogue that was invaded by racist hoodlums.

You can see plenty of evidence for it there.

[gratuitous]

8. Yeesh, what a train wreck

But I can sort of see both sides of the argument that's going on there, which is something that happens a lot when there aren't too many details. In the short version, there's no disagreement that the hoodlums who attacked the London synagogue were your basic brown-shirt thugs, and prosecution to the fullest extent of the law is wholly appropriate. Whether or not they were set off by anything happening in Israel is a moot (that is to say, debatable) point. More information is definitely needed, and inquiring into the motivations of a sick and twisted act is not to condone it, but seeking to understand it. In understanding it, society may be able to head of its recurrence.

Maybe there's nothing to understand. The dictum "People are just no damn good" may be old, but no less true in some cases, and I'd put this attack in that category. But I hesitate to just leave it at that. I'd want to know a little more about the motivations of these hoodlums. Is there an organized effort behind them? Are they acting out of age-old prejudice? Is there something that precipitated this attack now rather than at some other time? If, as speculated by one person in that thread, these dumbasses were set off by something Netanyahu said or did, it would be useful information for the Jewish community to be on their guard when similar things happen. Not that they can cause or stop Israel to act in a certain way, but knowing that some developments in Israel might precipitate violence against them, they can be forewarned of the danger.

In the meantime, it's obvious that there are dangerous divides in British society, some of which have been there so long they appear insoluble. I'm not persuaded that's the case. It would be good for an official statement from non-Jewish authorities deploring the attack, coupled with community building. These thugs are less likely to act out their aggression where society stands together and refuses to let the little aggressions slide by.

[cali]

15. huh?

[HereSince1628]

5. Anti-semitic speech is wrong, but so is a lot of other speech

when most DUers start responding to all stigmatizing speech with uncompromising condemnation my ox will have a chance to heal from its goring, until then, I'll just pick it's scabs.

[Kurska]

6. We're not talking about speech.

We're talking about physical bloody assault and even murder of people for their religion. There is no qualify or excusing that.

[HereSince1628]

7. As a consequence of the speech I'm talking police have attitudes that promote shooting people

I think I'm talking about something serious.

[DavidDvorkin]

9. I've come to expect it

It happens every time.

[Archae]

10. Donchu know?

Israel is to blame for all the trouble in the Middle East and other countries.

Palestinians and radical Muslims never do anything wrong.

Maduro in Venezuela can do nothing wrong.

Anyone who doesn't support Hillary 100%, supports a theocratic Nazi regime in the White House.

All GMO's are poison.

Vaccines cause autism.

Natural News is credible.

Russia Today is the best news agency on Earth.

[PCIntern]

11. Great post and good for you!!

But don't take my word for it: you KNOW it's a fantastic diatribe by who ISN'T showing up here.

[Bluenorthwest]

12. It's glaringly obvious and should meet the objections of anyone who cares about bias crimes

toward anyone. The fact is that in the US, slightly more than 60% of crimes motivated by bias against a person's religion the victims are Jewish. So anyone who has concerns about bias crimes targeting any religion or any other minority group should be extremely concerned with crimes against Jewish people.

Of the 1,223 victims of anti-religious hate crimes:

60.3 percent were victims of crimes motivated by their offenders’ anti-Jewish bias.
13.7 percent were victims of anti-Islamic (Muslim) bias.
6.1 percent were victims of anti-Catholic bias.
4.3 percent were victims of bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group).
3.8 percent were victims of anti-Protestant bias.
0.6 percent were victims of anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias.
11.2 percent were victims of bias against other religions (anti-other religion).
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/hate-crime/2013/topic-pages/victims/victims_final

[oberliner]

13. Great post

Glad this has not gone unnoticed.

[Kurska]

14. This thread seems to have gone unnoticed by some people though.

I wonder why.

[cali]

16. yeah, it's pretty repugnant. Let's hope it never again gets to the place

it did several years ago when Skinner had to ban quite a few long time posters for anti-semitism.

[riderinthestorm]

17. + 10000. Agreed nt

[MrBig]

18. You put my thoughts into words

Thank you for this. I don't post often, but I get extremely frustrated at the repeated examples of exactly what you refer.

It's becoming so common that sadly it's become a normal, thus acceptable practice here. What used to be correctly denounced as anti-Semitic has now been legitimized and accepted by some, which is incredibly disheartening.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

19. And if you call them on it they'll bark, "You're just playing the anti-semite card!"

Well, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and steps like a goose...

[SidDithers]

20. There are DUers who use rabid anti-Semites, racists and homophobes as sources at DU...

posting articles from them, about other topics, that support their own positions.

They either don't care that they're legitimizing these racist asshats, or they share the odious opinions of these authors.

One poster, in particular, has promoted the writings of racist Paul Craig Roberts, homophobic nutbar Wayne Madsen, and anti-Semite Christopher Bollyn, all in the past couple months.

Authors such as those should not be welcome at this progressive website, and neither should posters who promote them.

Thanks for your post.

Sid

[Behind the Aegis]

22. Vineyard of the Saker...If Americans Knew....

Of course, now we have someone actually referring to a Jew as a "shylock."

[villager]

29. Somebody on this site actually used the word "shylock!?"

And is still posting?

Jeez.....

[Behind the Aegis]

32. Yup...then defended its use!

The ole, "Semites are ME people" BS and labeling something "anti-Semitic" is "jingoism."

[MrBig]

21. Can't be surprised anymore

Blatant anti-Semitic language is allowed to stand apparently. Calling someone a shylock is now acceptable.

It feels hopeless for certain people to comprehend how the anti-Semitic behaviors such as that in this OP are hurtful when even the blatant stuff is permitted to stand.

Its disgusting.

[cali]

23. a jury left standing a post calling someone a shylock?

[Behind the Aegis]

25. Yes

Natanyahu=Shylock
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6407753

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

Criticism of Netanyahu? Necessary. Israel? Fine. But "Shylock" is a classic antisemitic slur because it has meant "money grubbing Jew" since roughly 1600.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Tue Mar 24, 2015, 12:10 PM, and voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Comment is OK. Comparing Netanyahu, or any Jew to Shylock, is not.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't have a problem with the word "Shylock." I don't see it as a slur. Leave it alone.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh for pity sake; get a life.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Yeah, Bibi is an ass, a POS used car salesman, but antiSemetic slurs need not be invoked.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation:
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

to the person who sent this to me!

[MrBig]

27. Thanks for posting this

I saw the results without seeing the comments. Maybe I wish I hadn't

[Behind the Aegis]

28. You can ignore my request! :)

The original alerter was kind enough to send it to me.

[villager]

31. "I don't have a problem with the word "Shylock." I don't see it as a slur. Leave it alone. "

"I don't see it as a slur?"

What a fucking ignoramus.

[MrBig]

33. This is why education is so important

I don't doubt that jury member had not previously known Shylock has a long anti-Semitic history. What scares me is how representative this may be of anti-Semitic ignorance on a larger scale.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. The ignorance of anti-Semitism is astonishing.

I always figured some things were fairly well known, but apparently not. Just this morning we had "Jews control Hollywood", "Israel lobby is more powerful than the NRA", and a few weeks back a list of congress people with dual citizenship...all Jews, all to Israel, none of it true, but it inspired the right amount of fear in others who went along to say things like "I don't want such a small percentage of people to control the US." Of course, there are those calling the US Congress "Israeli occupied territory" which is a becoming a new classic.

[MrBig]

43. I think the comment from the LBN thread takes the cake

That poster truly believes the only historical discrimination against Jews was in Germany during WWII.

[Behind the Aegis]

44. I have a bruise on my chin.

was what I did when I read that comment. I must say I am truly amazed at some of the things I am seeing. Not surprised mind you, just amazed.

[840high]

37. Thanks. Pretty disgusting.

[Vattel]

41. wow, incredible

[MrBig]

26. Yes

Post #57 on WilliamPitts thread about Israel spying on US/Iran talks. Jury let it stand 3-4 though I didn't see any comments.

[MerryBlooms]

24. rec & kick

Good post.

[JustAnotherGen]

30. Big old kick and rec on this one!

[Sarcastica]

34. I'm a "newbie" and early on was knocked out by a blatantly anti-semetic hate slur. I alerted

and the jury response was 6-1 to leave it. The only explanation given by a juror was, "You're going to have to get used to it. I've seen much worse".

So sad that we are supposed to be the tolerant, accepting side and still, a minority group is fair game.

Very sad to see the right wing's ridiculous attitudes towards left wing intolerance supported with facts here on DU.

[guillaumeb]

35. Thank you for saying "some" rather than all.

I have posted about Israel and its actions, but the posts are in response to the actions themselves rather than a condemnation of all Israelis or Jews. If I comment about any actions taken by the Israeli government I do not imply that any blame is shared by all Israelis.

I have also posted condemning US actions, again without condemning all US citizens. I agree with the post that some people who post regarding Israel seem to show anti-Semitic feelings in what they say. And that should be confronted and condemned.

But I have also been called an Israel hater by one commenter. No evidence given, but apparently the simple fact that I am critical of Israel's actions in Palestine serves as "evidence" and "proof" that I am an Israel hater.

When you said:
"No you aren't providing "context" hate crimes don't need "context', hate crimes are hate crimes. I don't care if other members of that minority are doing things you don't like in a different country. That is called collective guilt and we all know it is wrong. "

Excellently said. And thank you for saying it.

[Kurska]

36. And the anti-semitic crickets continue to chirp.

Not one of them having the guts to respond to my thread.

[ismnotwasm]

38. K&R

[treestar]

40. Then there would be no discussion

An OP followed by several posts only expressing immediate and uncompromising condemnation. Maybe the responses would vary but not much.

This would of course apply to all peoples. Martin and Brown cases - no discussion, just condemnation. Now someone who really does think Zimmerman or Wilson had to do what they did, while we might disagree, there's nothing for them to condemn, is there? You're really only saying there can be no discussion of the underlying issues, because disagreement with you makes someone a bad person. And bad people should not post.

[Kurska]

42. No sorry, the incidents I have seen these responses to have been open and shut.

Mass shootings of jews going to the market. Invasions of synagogues by racist hoodlums shouting epithets and intentions of murder. Brutal random beatings of jews in the street by racists.

There is simply no reason to try and spread blame for these attacks beyond the racists and thugs who do them. Trying to shame a minority immediately following their slaughter is despicable. It is just as wrong as trying to use crime committed by other African Americans to explain a police shooting. It is an attempt at collective guilt and it is always wrong.

We're in a state where anti-semtic slurs are being left up by DU juries, see post 25 for evidence. This is a very serious problem and it needs to be addressed, by moderators if need be.

[Autumn]

45. Locking. This does not meet the SOP for GD.

Discuss politics, issues, and current events. Posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports are restricted in this forum. Conspiracy theories and disruptive meta-discussion are forbidden.

From Skinners pinned thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025307978

Positive threads about Democratic Underground or its members are are permitted. Threads complaining about Democratic Underground or its members; threads complaining about jury decisions, locked threads, suspensions, bannings, or the like; and threads intended to disrupt or negatively influence the normal workings of Democratic Underground and its community moderating system are not permitted.