Hillary Is Like A Fish Out of Water When Talking About Class Issues

[WillTwain]

Bravo for Hillary's recent speech which put the spotlight on wealth inequality, but she just sounds so awkward. She cannot finish a complete sentence without looking at her notes.

Remember her comments about how corporations do not create jobs. It did not come out naturally. Working class issues do not appear to be in her wheel house.

Listen to Bernie or Elizabeth speak on class issues and their passion carries the conversation smoothly. It is easy to say all the right things but make the wrong moves. Maybe, I am too cynical but until she gets specific I will remain a skeptic. She will not be credible until Richard Trumka endorses her.

[PowerToThePeople]

1. rec for positive Bernie vibes. n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

2. She doesn't have any decent cookie recipes, either, but...

the simple truth is we haven't had all that many candidates who have.

Even the current one talked big at first, but look at him since the country threw out the Democratic congress.

[WillTwain]

3. We cannot afford another talker

Eight more years with a stealth republican in the White House will merely prolong the agony. The end is near for the middle-class.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. Bienvenido a Democratic Underground./NT

[wyldwolf]

26. "We cannot afford another talker"

"Listen to Bernie or Elizabeth speak on class issues and their passion carries the conversation smoothly."

Yes, they are great talkers.

[MADem]

27. Game, set, match. nt

[Marr]

73. The poster very obviously meant 'someone who is all talk', not

'anyone who addresses crowds'.

[MADem]

102. I don't think any of the politicians mentioned in this sad, tear-down thread are "all talk."

Thus, game-set-match is an appropriate observation.

[Marr]

108. You seem to be mistaking your opinion for fact.

The OP thinks Hillary Clinton seems insincere when talking about wealth inequality. I agree, personally. I'd say that read is backed up by her general policy positions, but even putting all that aside and just looking at delivery, I think she seems fake. Like someone putting on an act for the rubes-- kind of like that awful southern drawl she's occasionally tried to wear.

It was like seeing Leona Helmsley in a pair of Dickies.

[WillTwain]

122. I think the OP is pretty straight-forward

as you said, she lacks sincerity. Maybe, I am wrong. Let's hope so. When 90percent of the country got behind Bush after 911, I was pretty lonely calling hims fake. Turns out he was a fake. Some people see bullshit that is invisible to the lemmings.

[MADem]

137. I think 2016 is going to be a rough year for you. nt

[ND-Dem]

284. I think it's going to be a rough year for the 99%.

[davidpdx]

288. People like that don't care about the 1%

They care about making sure Hillary has her turn and that you march lock step with their ideas.

[WillTwain]

107. Thank you for your concise comment.

They interpret what they want to interpret. Open- mindedness would help.

[WillTwain]

29. Bernie has a 70 percent approval in Vt.

He walks the walk and they love him for it. Talk is cheap.

[wyldwolf]

32. Hillary Clinton has an 80%+ approval nationally among Democrats

[WillTwain]

38. What poll?

Approval based on what in the question?

I need to see more.

[wyldwolf]

49. This poll

http://www.gallup.com/poll/181988/hillary-clinton-clear-leader-favorability-among-democrats.aspx

[cheapdate]

242. The "DU Effect" is abundantly documented.

Yet it remains controversial and disputed by some at DU.

The average person isn't caught up in wondering about the details of the TPP. Most people are a good bit to the right of DU on questions of national security and counter terrorism. My dear old mother and all of her retired coworkers will vote Democrat without any fuss or hand-wringing.

[F4lconF16]

273. That's a good part of our problem, isn't it?

Last edited Wed Mar 25, 2015, 09:30 PM - Edit history (1)

Will vote Democrat without any fuss or hand-wringing.

We can't just vote without worry. We should be worried.

Voting by party instead of dearly held principle is a mindset that allows the elite to divide the working class into two groups and hold us to each other's throats. It's why we have massive financial fraud that remains unprosecuted; it's why we have a MIC that managed to lose 8.5 trillion dollars; it's why the real issues, like climate change, are rarely (if ever) discussed.

The problem is that by voting for party, you are saying that at some point you are willing to betray your principles. The elite realize this, and have set up these two groups in order to prevent any changes to the system. They then use the cover of "a greater evil" to justify their horrible policies under Democratic governance. It's why Obama has done very few meaningful things to address the MIC, etc.--he knows he doesn't have to, and he would lose substantial political support. They will keep shifting to the right as long as they can get away with it.

The Democratic party is reflective of the broken system we live in, and has been for over a hundred years now. Throughout history, it's been used as a bludgeon against the working class by giving just enough wealth to just enough people to prevent radical and lasting change.

Now, I'm probably going to be torn apart by establishment supporters for this post, so I might as well piss off the leftists here as well: FDR was a perfect example of how the elite managed to prevent a new system from being put into place. During the early 1900s, there was a (relatively) huge socialist/radical leftist movement, and widespread dissatisfaction with the system (to put it mildly). There was a real possibility that a radical leftwing party/group could gain power. The biggest danger to the establishment was that some of those groups had realized that racial and gender equality were necessary for a new system, should they have the chance to put it into place. This upset the balance of opposition between disadvantaged groups that the elite had carefully put into place over centuries.

In order to prevent the Socialist party from taking power, the Democratic party ran a left-wing establishment candidate who could garner support from a large chunk of the population and address some of their fears, concerns, and anger. FDR proceeded to put into place a system that is only recently being dismantled: a strong middle class. Note that after WWII we still had a huge poor class. The middle class was given just enough of the massive wealth the elite held in order to hold it's support for generations. In doing so, the Democratic party was able to prevent real change and people addressing the massive poverty and inequalities that have always existed in this country. I've read some authors that suggest that the MIC that we have now would not exist if not for the Democratic party's support. This is the genius of the capitalist system we live in: it produces such incredible wealth for a few that there is enough left over to mollify a portion of the population when necessary. These would be people who continue voting Democratic even when it is clear that some of these politicians do not support the working class. They haven't lost enough yet to look for something else.

And that, I think, is what voting for party over principle gets you: when you try to be "realistic" about change in the system, you will not change anything. You cannot work within a system that is actively trying to circumvent you; remember how that worked for Obama and the Republicans? Same for the working class and establishment Democrats: we will only affect real change when we accept that we have to stand by what is right.

Now, personally, I think the logical conclusion from that is some form of socialism, revolution, and a total abandonment of the capitalist society we have today. I won't advocate that here, for obvious reasons, but I think that it is something we should be thinking about.

[cheapdate]

274. Be careful with your language.

Good people supporting the Democratic Party are not the problem, no more than your (presumed) use gasoline powered transportation is "part of the problem" with environmental degradation and greenhouse gas emissions.

We're born into a world that we didn't create.

My mother was a social worker in child abuse and neglect, a case worker, all of her adult life. She and her coworkers are not the problem. So they vote for the party where at least some vestige of decency and concern for the powerless still resides.

The powerful and the wealthy, the bankers and the coal mine operators, corrupt politicians, these people are the problem. Save your criticism and your opposition for those who deserve it.

[F4lconF16]

275. You are right.

I edited my post and pulled out any personal parts. That was over the line, and I apologize. People in my family are much the same way. They are not bad people. They know who they vote for and why

I disagree that good people supporting the party without serious reservation and hesistancy is not part of the problem, though. If we support elite politicians who are actively working against us, we at least must do it with full recognition of what we are doing, and very rarely. There are no good options, but one of the worst is to continue down the same path. Far too many people (and with climate change, all of us) don't have time to wait and hope that years and years from now the party will swing left again. Meanwhile, they've taken the time we've given them, time and time again, to further stack the deck against us. We have no option but to not play their game as much as humanely possible.

As for transportation, I bike everywhere. I can't afford a car. If I use a motor vehicle, it's public transport if possible. I'm not perfect at all, but I do my best to look at each area in my life and try to make it better. It needs to be the same with our politics: if there are corrupt democrats, we cannot keep supporting them. We only harm ourselves by doing so. Yes, the wealthy and the bankers are the culprits. But throughout the history of the US (and really earlier) it was the slightly more privileged who accepted what they had and continued despite so much harm done to the worst-off among us that ultimately could not come together and unite with the working class. Their support is what gives the Democratic Party it's power. Same with the Republicans. If we can stand up and refuse both of the terrible options given us, we stand a chance.

[cheapdate]

278. I get what you're saying, but I look at it differently.

Ordinary people who vote reliably for the Democratic Party are on the right side. There is a third side as well, which is radical change, and which is neither Republican nor Democrat. That's good and I fully support it, in mind and body. The ordinary Democratic voter might not be there, but they're on the right side. The ordinary Democratic voter, who votes from a belief in civil rights, equality, compassionate public policy for the underprivileged, functioning civil institutions, etc., is on the right side.

Let the change leaders take action. But not everyone contributes in the same way. The fight is against the powerful.

(EDIT : I should add where I stand on the question of "lesser evil". The question isn't even comprehensible to me. Lesser evil wins every time. Greater evil loses every time.)

(EDIT : clarification. conclusion regarding "lesser evil" question assumes that: (1) the question is consequential, that is, that it has consequences that matter (2) it's a forced choice, i.e. if you don't choose someone will choose for you. Again, lesser evil wins every time. Greater evil loses every time.)

[F4lconF16]

281. Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

I think you're right. Partially, I am frustrated with those that should know better, but stand for a long list of things I can not and will not agree with. Unfortunately, they are not small in number or enthusiasm. I think you put that excellently. That clarified a few questions I've had bouncing around.

I am glad to hear you fully support radical change. It's what has brought us this far. We will continue.

[betterdemsonly]

251. From Gallup an organization that has been dropped by many mainstream papers for

right bias, and inaccuracy. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/19/1180374/-Galloping-Away-from-Gallup-USA-Today

[wyldwolf]

264. LOL. Attack Gallup. And you use DailyKOS as a 'mainstream source.' Awesome!

At least you're not trying to 'out-science' a scientific poll as many of your "I'm not a pollster, I just play one on the internets" pals on DU often do. You're just trying to throw a poll you don't like completely away.

[wyldwolf]

45. What poll?

based on what question? I need to see more.

[WillTwain]

54. The ultimate poll - his election

71 percent of Vermonters voted for him in 2012. That is based on time in office not lofty rhetoric.

Hill's 80 percent is impressive, she is equally impressive, but it is not based on a career in office. Also. being a woman is huge.

She is a great public servant that I do not have the evidence to say she is the right person for the moment.

[wyldwolf]

57. that just means 71% approved of him over his Republican opponent in a deep blue state

being an incumbent helped as well.

[WillTwain]

60. All true

but 71 percent after 30 years in VT. politics is impressive. It can be said Hillary is being compared the the rethuglican clown car and looks grand. also.

[wyldwolf]

64. When he gets to 70%+ approval among Democrats nationally, let me know.

[WillTwain]

75. Sadly

It is not going to happen. He has major hurdles - democratic socialist is red scare material.

We live in a pop culture world and Hill is a pop star.

[wyldwolf]

83. Your correct. It's not going to happen

[WillTwain]

86. We agree on something

I beg that Hill comes to the left.

[sabrina 1]

140. He will, IF the Party Leadership provide the funds they are providing for the 'only candidate'

who is 'viable' according to them.

But that won't happen, because Wall St will never fund a candidate the PEOPLE would prefer.

'Viable' = Wall St Funded.

To his credit, Bernie will never get the kind of funding Hillary has.

But remove the money from the equation and we would be looking at a whole different scenario.

[wyldwolf]

147. wait. You can show me where the 'party leadership' is providing 'funds?'

'Viable' = Wall St Funded.

Wait! I thought you said the party leadership did that?

[1StrongBlackMan]

150. What funds are the Party Leadership providing for the 'only candidate' ...

Link please.

But remove the money from the equation and we would be looking at a whole different scenario.

When one's argument is wholly contingent on "IF" (an wholly unlikely IF, at that) ... one can be pretty certain it is a losing argument.

[WillTwain]

175. A losing argument does not make it wrong

like Liz says, "the system is rigged." "If" is at the center of everything political today.

[1StrongBlackMan]

219. Okay. n/t

[WillTwain]

221. Witty

[1StrongBlackMan]

227. No. I just don't feel like ...

Arguing with someone that thinks "IF" is viable plan for anything beyond a fantasy.

[WillTwain]

231. Like I said, you can be on the wrong end of things and still be correct

"if" life was fair and just. Not unlike the sad racism that prejudges so many wonderful people. "If" only racism did not exist. There is that silly "if" word again.

[1StrongBlackMan]

241. And my life experiences ...

And 30+ years of activism has taught me that pondering the "IF" does nothing to affect racism ... or anything else.

[WillTwain]

243. Then all is lost

if is related to hope.

[1StrongBlackMan]

244. Hope is far less effective than ...

Convincingly workable plans.

[MADem]

135. Hillary Clinton's HILLPAC donated to Sanders' Senate campaign.

I don't think they dislike one another at all. I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up helping her GOTV amongst his particular state's constituency and fans nationwide, should she end up with the nomination.

I should think her performance over two terms in the Senate and as SECSTATE might inform many opinions. Her career has been impressive. Lots of newer voters were not out of diapers when her husband departed the scene and even the ones who were in high school in 2000 aren't terribly focused on what they regard as "the old days." To these people, HRC is the player on the world stage, not her aging and chatty husband with the heart disease, the sensible diet, and the bit of a roving eye.

[leftofcool]

48. Yea, and they are both so poor!

[donnasgirl]

62. At least

They show passion where Hillary seems very cold to say the least.

[WillTwain]

65. FDR, LBJ, Huey Long

all had fire in their bellies. Hillary, Obama do not show it.

We need a tiger.

[donnasgirl]

72. I agree

And maybe I am crazy but I truly believe It's Bernie or Elizabeth.

[WillTwain]

279. You are not crazy

Bernie and Liz have it. But the people that recognize it are few. There is no doubt in my mind that Bernie would be exactly the same person after eight years in office as he is today. The lack of wisdom in America on these things is astonishing.

[appalachiablue]

277. Agree, tired of corporate slick & the disappointers. The cry for humanity & passion that these

leaders had and that Sanders and Warren have is vast. And Mario Cuomo had it. It's needed again desperately God knows-

[WillTwain]

280. I am strong but losing faith in humanity

If we do not get a complete human being in the White House soon, the damage may take another lifetime to repair.

[donnasgirl]

289. To bad

Mario's son doesn't have it, being from NY I can tell you the Unions here have had it with Andy.

[WillTwain]

290. There are only a handful of good leaders

MN has Mark Dayton, N.Y.C. has Deblasio, VT has Bernie, Florida has Grayson, but there are not too many in charge.

Most Dems are pretty lame, all Repubs suck.

[donnasgirl]

292. And that is a big Amen Will.

[donnasgirl]

293. You might disagree

But I also like Sherrod Brown.

[WillTwain]

295. Sherrod is great, along with many reps in the progressive caucus

Most of them are not in powerful positions like Governor. As far as presidents, it has been a long time between heroes.

[appalachiablue]

294. That's about the extent of strong leaders today which is very slim given the times and for

people who remember so many more. It's reflective of the Reaganomics era, the small Gen. X generation producing few govt. leaders and the strong pro-business and ant-govt. epoch. To the group I'd add worthy if less visible reps. Pat Leahy (VT), Sheldon Whitehouse (RI), Sherrod Brown (OH), Jan Shakowsky (IL), Keith Ellison (MN), Mark Pocan (WI) and Barbara Boxer who's good but leaving. Grayson's House speech on health care was a knockout; he's extremely bright and effective yet there's little acknowledgment here, some snark even before his current messy divorce. It'll be a good while before older millennials fill in the 40-60 age group gap if ever because of many factors, but here's hoping. CASTRO must be added to the ticket I realized several months ago, esp. if Jeb is the nominee; see post now in GD.

[WillTwain]

296. You know what really scares me

All the great progressives that have retired in the last few years. The old guard that looked up to the Humphrey-types are dead or gone. Gen-x largely looks up to Reagan and Bush and corporate America. I hear young people trash FDR. Can it get more ridiculous?

[appalachiablue]

291. Nope and that's too bad, what a change in one generation. I've heard of

AC's policies Re unions and teachers but he's ok on the fracking ban so far which is good.

[wyldwolf]

66. At the very least

They're great actors. And know how to point their fingers. That's gonna get stuff done!

[WillTwain]

68. I think this was already discussed

Look at the records. Look at the bills and proposals they have behind them. Action speaks louder than words. Hillary is all talk at this point and she really is not saying much more than the righties. Everyone agrees on the problems. Solutions determine leadership and direction.

[wyldwolf]

74. ok, let's look at the 'bills and proposals they have behind them.'

Start with the proposals and bills Sanders made that actually passed and became law.

[WillTwain]

79. It is still more than can be said for Hillary or Barack

He is fighting hard against republicans and whatever you are and is still standing. List the bills that Hill proposed that passed and became law that strengthened unions, raised the minimum wage and attacked Wall Street. She is a shadow of what Bernie and Elizabeth are.

[wyldwolf]

87. you just avoided your own criteria

And now you're trying to divert to Hillary.

YOU mentioned "bills and proposals" as a measure of success.

How many bills and 'proposals' introduced by Sanders have become law? ANYONE elected can introduce bills. All day long.

[WillTwain]

92. See comment 79

Round and round we go.

Bernie has a great record behind him in VT. He is a known quantity unlike Hill.

If Steinbeck could not get his books published, would this make him less of a writer.

[wyldwolf]

94. I responded to comment 79, which is why I asked you again.

You don't answer a question with a question. YOU'RE the one who said Sanders was a success because of all the bills and proposals behind him. So I ask a third time - how many became law? Can you answer that? No?

This will only go 'round and round' because you're making it so.

[WillTwain]

97. See Comment 92 and 79

[wyldwolf]

99. Again, you can't provide evidence of your claim - in either post

[WillTwain]

103. Add comment 97 to your must read list.

[wyldwolf]

105. Just did and it's more of the same. You make a claim then run away from it.

[Marr]

91. Hillary points fingers, too. She just points them away from the culprits.

Personally, I think identifying problems honestly is immensely important.

[WillTwain]

104. If nothing else challenging her may make her a better candidate

and force her to the left.

[sabrina 1]

130. There is a huge difference regarding 'talkers' between those who speak from the heart AND

act accordingly, and those who need notes to refer to when discussing issues like this.

Bernie has a record in his state of doing a lot more than talking. Which is why he continues to have the trust of those who elect him.

Warren has already influenced the conversation in the Senate despite being a new member there..

Hillary supports the use of Public Funds intermingling with Private entities. That is wrong, it has had disastrous results whenever and wherever this Heritage Foundation 'belief' has been implemented. Not for the Private entities, they do very well when Public Funds pass through their hands, but for the owners of those funds.

[WillTwain]

187. How can they doubt Bernies integrity? It is so small.

[daredtowork]

185. Thank you. nt

[whathehell]

232. +10. n/t

[Sheepshank]

4. Great...can you name one Senator from the Right willing to address it at all...

and one that isn't also a fish out of water?

sorry, your comment is silly on it's face. Your comments regarding looking at notes sounds just like the RW screeching on about Obama using teleprompters.

[WillTwain]

6. Actually, it is a nuanced observation.

She appears unfamiliar with the subject matter.

If it comes down to Hillary or any Republican, I will vote for Hillary. This does not imply that she will turn around the wealth distribution issue in America. She is simply better than Ted Cruz, Rubio, Paul and Bush. Yippee.

[Sheepshank]

7. not seeing any nuanced observation. But you can back track if you like n/t

[WillTwain]

9. No back tracking

Just the truth.

Hillary has a questionable record - TPP, Walmart board. Do not forget that big unions will not endorse until they hear more form her. That is what we need to keep an eye on.

[CANDO]

36. DU is a lot like whack-a-mole

There are vigilant supporters of certain pols who are holding the mallet ready to strike the moment someone criticizes their favorite leader. Sometimes it is very disconcerting that there are people who cannot stand to allow an honest observation go unchallenged.

[WillTwain]

43. Tell me about it.

I just returned from a 90 day time-out for doing virtually nothing wrong.

Your point is taken. I am trying to open the discussion up so we see clearly, yet have been demonized by centrist democrats.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

272. Don't you need five hides to get a ninety day time out?/NT

[wyldwolf]

58. Gawd, that's hysterical

Sometimes it is very disconcerting that there are people who cannot stand to allow an honest observation go unchallenged.

Translation: Don't dispute my word. I can express my opinion but you can't.

[CANDO]

106. He was making an honest observation.

And HRC's followers were quick to try and drown him out. There is also another poster accusing him of sexism and misogyny. All for expressing his observation that she seems in-authentic on a particular issue. Major problem here at DU....far too many activist types pouncing and drowning out political discussion. Hurling unfounded accusations, etc.

[wyldwolf]

111. which means no one can reply to his OP unless they agree with him??

[CANDO]

113. No it doesn't

So join the thread and engage him why you find her authentic. Instead he gets barraged with snark and sexism accusations.

[wyldwolf]

127. We can reply in any manner we choose.

sexism accusations.

if the shoe fits.

[CANDO]

149. Hogwash

Now it's OK to accuse others of any sort of ism, according to you. Just don't accuse an activist of anything because they have a self appointed magical shield of moral high ground, correct? No repercussions, after all....you are the guardian of whether a shoe ever fits. The shoe fits all too often to some very active activists around DU nowadays. The rest of us just have to put up with it, right?

[wyldwolf]

151. "Now it's OK to accuse others of any sort of ism"

It's never been NOT ok.

[WillTwain]

157. Isms are lazy

If the debate is lost attack character. Cheesy.

[wyldwolf]

159. True - so you shouldn't resort to them

[WillTwain]

160. Please Cite

[CANDO]

217. Oh?

What the hell! I just had a post hidden a few days ago and I wasn't accusing anyone of anything. I made the mistake of using some "code words" which another person connected to stormfront white supremacists. This place is so Orwellian at times. For so much as using words, I get a hide and my 12+ year membership reviewed. And OTOH, you're saying it's completely fine if any particular activist can accuse others of downright disgusting isms, founded or not.

[wyldwolf]

218. I'm not surprised you used those words

But you live and die by the Jury on DU.

[CANDO]

233. Bless your snark

You know not a thing about me.

[wyldwolf]

235. nothing but what you just admitted in post #217

[CANDO]

238. Be gone with you now....

Tired of your snarky babbling.

[wyldwolf]

240. You're a fan of medieval-type fantasy movies I'd bet. "be gone with you!"

[WillTwain]

222. It is truly upside down

They are cocking off and snarking away in every post (LOL, name calling, you are ignorant, troll, etc.) yet an imagined offense gets you punished. You come in, post a sincere concern and next thing you know you are on the receiving end of snark and jail time.

[CANDO]

236. Pretty much describes certain topics on DU

And your thread was hijacked for their little PC activist exercise. OOOPS! Now I went and mentioned an umentionable....

[wyldwolf]

237. you've made several remarks that indicate you've been around longer than your post count indicates

You must have lurked awhile.

[WillTwain]

116. I question her authenticity, you question my character, and somehow

I am the bad person.

I have a right to question Hillary. You have a right to defend her. Why does it always get personal when Hill or Barack are questioned. If we do not elect true progressives, the corporatists cake is baked.

[wyldwolf]

118. I question your knowledge of the subject matter

I have a right to question Hillary.

I have a right to question your knowledge of the subject matter.

If we do not elect true progressives,

Elect a true progressive then. Should be easy. All you need to do is run a credible candidate. Organize. Raise money.

[WillTwain]

124. To steal a line from Reagan "There you go again."

Another personal attack - now I am not knowledgable. Who made you the expert?

Hillary reminds me of Barack and that means more of the same.

If you are such an expert on everything, do you really think electing a progressive in today's America should be easy?


If you do, I have nothing more to say.

[wyldwolf]

126. A personal attack? You consider disagreeing with you a personal attack?

[WillTwain]

129. You questioned my "knowledge"

sort of personal since you refuse to even listen to my knowledge.

[wyldwolf]

133. On the subject matter, I do. About those 'bills and proposals'

YOU bring it up, yet refuse to answer. There is only one conclusion that can be drawn.

[ND-Dem]

285. It always gets personal because personal attack is all these types of persons have. They

can't defend the indefensible adequately, all they can do is attack people and demean them.

Demeaning potential voters is so effective. Yet they seem to all be trained in the same place: Low-rent Joe's Basement of Political Dirty Tricks.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. Marx wrote about unequal wealth distribution in the nineteenth century.

She won't be the first leader of a capitalist nation to attack the problem.

[WillTwain]

14. Will She?

Elizabeth Warren says she needs to hear more before she is convinced about Hill.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. She will probably do as much as her predecessor./NT

[WillTwain]

17. I want a time machine

to visit pre-Reagan America. I would love to observe real democrats in action.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. You might be disappointed...

Jimmy Carter's two greatest domestic initiatives were airline and trucking deregulation.

LBJ was an activist president though,,, That being said the ACA was the largest domestic initiative in over a generation.

[WillTwain]

19. Jimmy was also big on energy independence and peace

If we followed his lead, the world would be a much better place today. He was a forward looking adult.

That said, he was into deregulation. I would like to hear his explanation. The economy was languishing so maybe he had a case.

[wyldwolf]

28. Jimmy was a big proponent of Welfare reform.

Here is part of what Jimmy Carter ran on in 1976:

Welfare Reform

Fundamental welfare reform is necessary. The problems with our current chaotic and inequitable system of public assistance are notorious. Existing welfare programs encourage family instability. They have few meaningful work incentives. They do little or nothing for the working poor on substandard incomes. The patchwork of federal, state and local programs encourages unfair variations in benefit levels among the states, and benefits in many states are well below the standards for even lowest-income budgets.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=29606

(This greatly resembles Clinton's position in the 90s)

Time Magazine said of Carter:

A catalog of contradictions: Liberal, moderate, conservative, compassionate, ruthless, soft, tough, a charlatan, a true believer, a defender of the status quo, a populist Hamlet... A Democrat who thinks like a Republican... he also considers himself a fiscal conservative...

Other facts concerning him:

A former State Senator, he was elected Governor by running to the right of the other Democratic candidates. "I was never a liberal," he told state voters that year. "I am and have always been a conservative."

He campaigned against school busing.

A supporter of the Viet Nam war, as Governor he declared "American Fighting Man's Day" in support of Lt. William Calley after his court martial on charges of massacring civilians.

At the 1972 Democratic convention, he was a delegate for Henry "Scoop" Jackson's (said by some to be the father of the DLC) presidential campaign, and he worked with Al From of the DLC on economic issues as well.

One of his campaigns was endorsed by Pat Robertson, who aired a profile of him on the 700 Club.

He gave birth to al Qaeda.

[daredtowork]

196. Carter also increased defense spending to 10b

After promising to cut defense spending in his campaign.

Thank you for finding that Welfare quote. As a recipient, I don't see how anything has changed, other than getting worse via Clinton's "reforms" since that time. Aid is still a patchwork of incompetently run Federal, State, and Local programs. There are still unfair differences in the most important one - "General Assistance" welfare. That's run by county so there is a race to the bottom to avoid "attracting undesirables". The funds are inadequate for individuals, much less families. Here GA is a LOAN of $336/month for only 3 months out of the year unless you are disabled. Rent for a single room has hit $1200/month. There is a built in disincentive to take odd jobs for work (see my sig) because unless you can hit the ground running with a full time job, the money will just be subtracted from your GA and you will be in trouble with your landlord. That's right- you aren't ALLOWED to legally acquire money for non-food necessities. Need some tampons? Tough cookies.

It looks like Carter had a correct picture of the situation - which basically drowns people in too much bullshit to get them even on the road to work. But how did Clinton "fix"it? Did he standardize programs, give people realistic aid, and pipeline them to work? No he limited welfare to 5 years to "incetivize" people to get work and made things worse.

I will remain under the impression Hillary also thinks people on welfare just need more rugs pulled out from under them until she starts to make proposals that sound like something different.

[ND-Dem]

286. It doesn't resemble Clinton's positions in the least.

During the Carter Administration, spending for Department of Labor jobs and training programs totaled about $34 billion, more than a two and a half fold increase over the amount of funds spent for employment and training activities during the period 1973-1976. Each year during President Carter's term in office about 4 million economically disadvantaged persons received training and job opportunities under the Comprehensive Employment and Training Act alone.

Particularly impressive were the gains in employment opportunities and services by the most disadvantaged groups in our society — over 90 percent of the persons receiving employment opportunities and services in 1980 were economically disadvantaged, as compared with 63 percent of the participants in employment and training programs during 1976.

Numbers alone, however, do not adequately reflect the Administration's accomplishments in the employment and training area. The Carter Administration initiated and was successful in getting enacted major new programs designed to fill previously missing gaps in meeting the needs of the Nation's unemployed workers.

Numbers alone, however, do not adequately reflect the Administration's accomplishments in the employment and training area. The Carter Administration initiated and was successful in getting enacted major new programs designed to fill previously missing gaps in meeting the needs of the Nation's unemployed workers.

The Economic Stimulus Appropriations Act of 1977, which was signed by the President on May 13, 1977, made available $20.1 billion in new obligational authority. Nearly half that was for employment programs. Public Service Employment programs, authorized by Titles II and VI of CETA, received the largest share of the economic stimulus funds, resulting in a doubling of the size of the public service employment program — from 310,000 to 600,000 jobs by the end of Fiscal Year 1977, and to 725,000 jobs for Fiscal Year 1978.

http://www.dol.gov/dol/aboutdol/history/carter-eta.htm


Clinton's signature program was welfare "reform," and a big crock of shit it was.

[wyldwolf]

287. It resembles it greatly

The 90s-era welfare reform bill was based on the plan from the 1976 DNC platform that Jimmy Carter campaigned on and embraced.

No one has said the Carter administration followed through on it. I certainly didn't. Maybe he lacked the votes in Congress.

Fundamental welfare reform is necessary. The problems with our current chaotic and inequitable system of public assistance are notorious. Existing welfare programs encourage family instability. They have few meaningful work incentives. They do little or nothing for the working poor on substandard incomes. The patchwork of federal, state and local programs encourages unfair variations in benefit levels among the states, and benefits in many states are well below the standards for even lowest-income budgets.

vs. Bill Clinton's statement:

All Americans, without regard to party, know that our welfare system is broken, that it teaches the wrong values, rewards the wrong choices, hurts those it was meant to help. We also know that no one wants to change the current system in a good way more than people who are trapped in it.

One line in particular sounds like how the GOP typically describes welfare: "The problems with our current chaotic and inequitable system of public assistance are notorious. Existing welfare programs encourage family instability."

vs. Barack Obama:

“conservatives — and Bill Clinton — were right about welfare as it was previously structured: By detaching income from work and by making no demands on welfare recipients other than a tolerance for intrusive bureaucracy and an assurance that no man lived in the same house as the mother of his children, the old A.F.D.C. program sapped people of their initiative and eroded their self respect.”

For that matter, the statements were all very Bobby Kennedy-like.

Clinton's Welfare Reforms Shaped by Predecessors' Frustrated Efforts

WASHINGTON — Richard Nixon promised "total welfare reform--the transformation of a system frozen in failure." Jimmy Carter asked Congress "to abolish our existing welfare system." Ronald Reagan called for "real and lasting emancipation" from welfare.

Now comes Bill Clinton, who will release a reform plan in Kansas City today that is intended to redeem his promise "to end welfare as we know it."

Like his predecessors', Clinton's plan begins with the assumption that the welfare system has failed both the taxpaying public and those it is intended to help. But, in both its ambitions and its modesty, Clinton's plan has been shaped by the frustrations that these earlier reform efforts left behind.... Clinton's plan envisions much more incremental change in the welfare system than the sweeping reforms Nixon and Carter offered.

http://articles.latimes.com/1994-06-14/news/mn-3972_1_welfare-reform-effort

[TheKentuckian]

131. Carter was a fairly right leaning Democrat that is now painted as a liberal

mostly on the strength of regressive bashing, wearing a sweater, having a few solar panels, a generation of conservative domination, and his humanitarian post Presidential life.

Jimmy is a better person (in my opinion) with an intellect more versed and attuned to science than those who followed him but he was pretty much just the beta version of the DLC with less campaign talent.

[WillTwain]

144. Thanks for your insights on Jimmy

The seventies were progressive times and maybe he, like Nixon, was caught up in it.

I need to do more homework on Carter.

[leftofcool]

51. And this coming from someone who lives in a million dollar mansion?

[CANDO]

39. Something tells me (call it a gut feeling),

That Hillary and other centrist Dems won't be doing any attacking of inequality. For them, lip service(rhetoric) will suffice.

[WillTwain]

71. I do not want you to be right

but am afraid you will be. She is another Lawrence Summers groupie, like President Obama. That never ends well for workers.

[Marr]

98. They call things like the TPP 'battling inequality'.

They just redefine it to mean 'making American workers compete with Vietnamese workers'. I don't even doubt their sincerity when they make that argument, though I do think the piles of cash they get for advancing such policies probably colors their thinking... a tad.

[CANDO]

110. Agree

Completely

[patricia92243]

5. I thought she was raised in a pretty middle-class home. ????

[WillTwain]

8. So was Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio

Climbers are often the biggest haters of lower classes.

[JaneyVee]

10. Yeah ok. Find me where Rubio and Cruz address income inequality.

Its funny how when you're poor and talk about income inequality they call you bitter, when you're rich and talk about income inequality they call you a hypocrite.

[WillTwain]

12. Actually, Rethugs across the board are talking about it.

Of course they are gong back to the same tired crap about getting government out of the way and personal responsibility.

Both sides will talk it up for another year and a half. I have seen this movie before. Hillary needs to be pinned down on her solutions. Bernie has already put out a twelve point plan. Where is hillary's?

[wyldwolf]

40. "Bernie has already put out a twelve point plan. Where is hillary's?"

Hillary ran in 2008 and had a 14 point plan that was a fleshed out a bit more than Bernie's bullet points. Where's the meat on his points?

https://web.archive.org/web/20080215013207/http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/

[donnasgirl]

69. And she lost to a virtual unknown

[wyldwolf]

70. Which is irrelevant to this discussion.

But, based on your logic, she might have done better had she just posted a few bullet points with no details on how she'd ever get the points done?

[MADem]

141. So now convention keynote speakers are "virtual unknowns..?"

Only to people who pay absolutely NO attention.

[CANDO]

53. Lip service...

aka...rhetoric....that's all the Pubbies are doing, as well as a good many centrist Democrats. Welcome to DU, btw! Choose your arguments wisely around here. There are roving bands of alerters who just love scoring a hit. It's supposed to be a forum of discussion, but many times you'll get an alert rather than an exchange of ideas. As an aside, I recently found out after being a DU member for over 12 years, that I'm actually a far right wing stormfront white supremacy member for using "code words" in a post which was hidden. Really amazing powers by some members to know the heart of other members via the "code words". If there's an award for the longest dormant sleeper troll, I win....12 years a sleeper troll....who knew? I certainly didn't!

[WillTwain]

59. Thanks for the warning

I have already been bullied by "special interest groups" on DU. I, like you, found out that I am an extreme right-wing troll. Amazing, I always considered myself an FDR Democrat. To think that FDR would be bounced off of DU is amazing.

[bettyellen]

21. Yep. Love hearing the "tone and delivery" bullshit thrown at women too....

It's an oldie but goodie.

[WillTwain]

31. Explain please

[bettyellen]

44. google tone + feminists for about a thousand million articles

Have fun!

[WillTwain]

67. Watch your tone

Kidding.

[bettyellen]

76. Heard that one before, lol.

[CANDO]

77. And in a reactionary fashion...

You "know" this person's mind and intent. In his OP, I didn't read anywhere, or even get the impression that he attacked her in any way, shape, or form for being a female. Now, how the heck is it that you have special powers to be able to know he was really saying it was "tone and delivery"? I got what he was saying. In so many words, he's describing what I see in many pols, in-authenticity on a certain issue, REGARDLESS of gender or race.

[WillTwain]

81. Now this is a wise man/woman

Thank you CANDO.

They see what they want to see.

[bettyellen]

85. Because it's not at all about the content but delivery.....

A very familiar tactic used to discredit women.
Irrelevant.

[WillTwain]

88. This has to stop

Falling back on defensive chatter will get not help. BTW, I love Elizabeth's tone. Now what do you say?

We get to slam Cheney's tone, along with nearly every male rethuglican, but cannot question Hill. OK.

[bettyellen]

90. Links to questioning "Cheney's tone", please?

[CANDO]

96. And now the big pissing contest ensues...

So you are openly accusing WillTwain of sexism and misogyny? He did nothing of the sort and you should be ashamed of yourself for disparaging this person's character. Your behavior in this situation makes you no better than what you are supposedly displaying vigilance about. Why don't activists get it that you don't allow your activism to cloud your better judgement? You just throw out accusations willy nilly because you allow yourself to hide behind your activism like it's a magical shield against treating others with respect.

[bettyellen]

100. Most people are guilty of a little sexism now and again- and discussing it is a good thing.

Misogyny? Oh please with this hair on fire bullshit.
Discussing sexism is NOT worse than the effects of sexism itself. That's bullshit too.

[CANDO]

145. Go ahead and hide behind your magical shield

The man made a plain as day observation about a politician seeming in-authentic. That's all! And then you bring your reactionary activism into this and then hand wring because I called you out on it. Bullshit is right! But you brought it here where it didn't belong. You went there and now find you can't hide behind anything. So sad

[bettyellen]

215. Lol, sorry you're saddened by any discussion of sexist tropes....

It's an interesting topic. Cannot wait till she hits the campaign trail and people like John Oliver and Rachel Maddow report on it.

[WillTwain]

223. What sexist trope is CANDO saddened by?

[WillTwain]

101. Magical Shield is a perfect description

"you allow yourself to hide behind your activism like it's a magical shield against treating others with respect."

They think canned politically correct rhetoric ends all conversations.

Again, thank you for your clarity. Frankly, I LOVE WOMAN.

[OilemFirchen]

226. "Acttivist" as a pejorative is a new one.

Congrats on reaching the upper echelon of awkward.

[bettyellen]

250. OMG he spotted his self a radical frm SJW! The horrors!

[DonCoquixote]

247. Funny, I thought Liz Warren was a woman

and a damned fine example of a woman that can challenge all those old boys that run the system. Meanwhile, Hillary spends time defending the males that do job exports and outsourcing, something that certainly does hurt women. Wal Mart hurts women by paying them starvation wages. Arab women die and bury babies because Hillary said "Assad must go" and "we came, we saw, he died" in Libya. It is not like she could not have talked to several Iraqi women about how that would have turned out, the same women that are still trying to keep their children alive and how now have to wear burqas, just like their sisters in Syria.

How can people claim Hillary is about helping women when there are many women that are actively HURT by what she does? What did the low-wage worker feeding her kids, the arab woman mourning her dead child, the college student that realizes her job market got outsourced, what did these women do to stop being considered worthy of protection by the lady who wants to represent them?

[bettyellen]

249. I hope Warren gets a lot more experience and runs- unless she is a hawk too.....

I'm pretty sure we don't know anything about her in regards to foreign policy yet.
She a bit green, but very promising! Thanks for sticking to policy issues.

[MannyGoldstein]

253. Apparently not, according to the latest "Libs don't like Hillary because they're misogynists" meme.

Banged into it yesterday, too.

Maybe Warren is transgenedered and we just don't know it?

[WillTwain]

257. Authored by a DUer?

[Mnpaul]

276. It's all they have

They can't dispute facts presented so they pull that crap. I ran into it as well.

[WillTwain]

255. Great Context

People do not think independently.

[City Lights]

30. Park Ridge, IL is upper middle class. nt

[hedda_foil]

260. Upper middle class, actually.

From what I've read, her childhood home was a couple of steps up from the Levittown style tract homes that sprang up in the suburbs of big cities.

Note* This does not mean her family was wealthy, as it so often does now. For the most part, there was far less income inequality in the 50s and early 60s.

[NYC_SKP]

22. Here's a much better example of a wonderful woman talking about class and wealth. OMG!

[WillTwain]

33. That is what I am talking about.

Passion comes from deep inside.

[NYC_SKP]

47. No script. No notes. 100% Passion.

Why settle for less?

[sadoldgirl]

23. After showing much more compassion for the banks

than for the workers, this switch is only talk to me.

I still prefer some people who have tried to work
against the inequality to those who come to join
the bandwagon now, when it is "fashionable".

[WillTwain]

34. Cannot agree more.

Liz and Bernie have records and passion to build credibility on. Hill has neither

[Johonny]

24. Watch Bill Clintons 2008, or 2012 convention speech

He hits home on this issue with a vengeance. It's only too bad you hear that tone in the Democratic convention and so rarely any other place.

[WillTwain]

35. Bill was the best talker of our time.

He did not do much legislatively to help workers.

[Capt. Obvious]

25. It should come naturally to her. She was dead broke at one time

14 years ago.

[closeupready]

37. It was posted on DU recently that Hillary has over 200 fiscal advisers; yet, she has no solutions?

No solutions to growing income inequality here in the US?

That's like the Koch Brothers saying 'we are concerned about over-reliance on fossil fuels, and we are open to suggestions as to alternatives...?'

[WillTwain]

46. Exactly

Where is her 12 point plan? Bernie has one. The progressive caucus has a plan,too. She can shut me up in a second, if she lays one out.

[wyldwolf]

115. "yet, she has no solutions?" How do you know she has no solutions?

[closeupready]

120. She offered none.

[wyldwolf]

121. So?

I haven't given you $1. Doesn't mean I have no money.

[closeupready]

123. If you're fine with a whiney president, I'm fine with you being fine with her.

Personally, I look for a candidate who is smart, decisive, and who has an effective plan.

[wyldwolf]

138. ok, thanks! We appreciate your support.

[WillTwain]

128. If you are hoarding your money for later

you probably never will share - same goes for ideas.

[ileus]

41. Good news is Trumka will endorse her...sooner rather than later.

[WillTwain]

50. Do you know inside info?

I hope she convinces him. I will be surprised if labor gets duped again, as recent history has proven.

[leftofcool]

52. Yes, he will.

[WillTwain]

55. How do you know this?

It would be great news.

[leftofcool]

80. Maybe a little bird or maybe my son but I am not going to say at the moment.

[WillTwain]

82. You really are cool leftofcool

Please divulge your information.

[Bluenorthwest]

153. I assume you are not a Union member.

I am. We have long, long memories.

[WillTwain]

156. I am a proud long-time union member

The Clintons are neutral on unions. We have always sported them but it is less than symbiotic.

[wyldwolf]

61. he came very close to doing it last summer

[WillTwain]

84. Absolutely wrong

He said in no uncertain terms that if she brings Obama's economic team with her, unions will not endorse her.

They want nothing to do with Obama's team. Hillary has a problem here. His team is Bill's old team.

[wyldwolf]

89. " I think she is very, very qualified to be president,"

"I think that Hillary did an excellent job as secretary of state. I think she is very, very qualified to be president,"

[WillTwain]

93. She is a great American, one of the best

But is she the right person for right now?

I see no evidence.

[Eleanors38]

42. She's a fish outta water when she leaves the Beltway.

[uponit7771]

56. She'll adapt and be a great president !!!

[WillTwain]

63. Maybe

But i want more certainty. She needs to open up on her plans.

[uponit7771]

143. There's no more certainty, that's reality...

[winter is coming]

112. For whom?

'Cause the public-private partnership buzzwords sound like a) more privatization b) more trickle-down c) both.

[uponit7771]

142. For America

[winter is coming]

168. Corporate America, maybe. n/t

[HereSince1628]

170. With her all her experience, adaptation??? That shouldn't really be an issue

I can only think of one reason that could be... which is she's learning a new script for a new role, or a new product to sell

and istm that suggests either she doesn't, or people on her staff don't, think her experience and history -as it is- would sell to people see as the problems needing to be faced by the next democratic candidate.

[LiberalArkie]

78. Remember the story from years ago, where she did not know how to put gas in a car.

First jobs really I think were Rose law doing work for Stephens INC.

I have a hard time with any lawyer anymore. I know there are some that do good work. But most have no opinion about anything just the job. They will sue or represent the same person as long as someone is paying. It isn't so much that I dislike the Clintons as much as they are lawyers.

[WillTwain]

95. Valid Point

Generational wealth leaves a person detached from reality. Even my humble success has taken me away from my roots in some ways. People want to move forward and they forget where they came from. It is natural. She has been rich a long time. Granted, there are exceptions but she does not seem genuine on workers justice.

[wyldwolf]

109. yeah, I remember Rush Limbaugh talking about that, among other things...

...like Hillary should make him a sandwich. Pretty disgusting you'd bring that here.

[Marr]

114. Holy shit, its the rarely-seen Logic Triple Jump.

Start with a specious assumption, leap to another, and before they have time to process it, JUMP!

[wyldwolf]

117. Holy shit! It's the 'defense at all costs' triple jump.

Interesting you didn't really add to the discussion - like provide some sort of corroboration outside of the Arkansas Project for that claim.

[Marr]

179. What 'discussion'? You just made a lame, fumbling attempt to paint someone as a Limbaugh fan. /nt

[wyldwolf]

183. Context matters even on the net

The story about Hillary not been able to put gasoline in the car was heard in the Rush Limbaugh show originally. Can you point to another source?

[Marr]

197. It was reported in everything from CBS News to the Huffington Post.

Suggesting that anyone mentioning the story must be a Limbaugh fan is just absurd. I realize you're a huge Hillary Clinton supporter, but this sort of crap is just lame.

[wyldwolf]

202. Look at post #78 and provide links to support the contention

I'll help you out: "Remember the story from years ago, where she did not know how to put gas in a car."

Remember, words have meanings.

I'll wait.

[Marr]

211. I literally have no idea what you're talking about. /nt

[wyldwolf]

212. In the post directly above what you just responded to, you seemed to have all the answers.

YOU: It was reported in everything from CBS News to the Huffington Post.

ME: Look at post #78 and provide links to support the contention

YOU: I literally have no idea what you're talking about. /nt

[Marr]

252. Are you asking me to provide a link to the story on CBS News or Huff Post?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/hillary-clinton-hasnt-driven-a-car-since-1996/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/28/hillary-clinton-car-populism_n_4681053.html

[WillTwain]

256. Wyldwolf is in a corner, again.

[wyldwolf]

263. See post 262. oops.

[wyldwolf]

262. Yes, and you failed to do so

Remember how I said 'words have meanings?'

Nothing at either link says anything about "where she did not know how to put gas in a car." (from post #78, the one you're defending.) If they do, quote the passage.

[great white snark]

119. RW smears seem to be par for the course here lately.

Also this wealth is a hindrance attack is mind boggling considering who that poster has as an avatar.

[wyldwolf]

125. Like President Obama said in 'Audacity of Hope' ...

The (far) left and (far) right really are opposite sides of the same coin. "Mirror images of each other," whose purpose is "not to pursuade the other side but to keep their bases agitated and assured of the rightness of their respective causes."

There are SO MANY right wing smears we could bring here against Warren. Against Sanders. But we don't.

[WillTwain]

134. Hit me with some right-wing smears against Bernie

It does not surprise me at all that President Obama rips the left. His leadership speaks for itself. To imagine a Democratic President that would trash the underpinnings of FDR's New Deal is astonishing.

No wonder the country is falling apart.

[wyldwolf]

136. No thanks. I'll leave that kind of thing to 'progressives.' You're so good at it.

[WillTwain]

146. Come on you must have a laundry list on the tip of your tongue

Just list me your top 20.

[wyldwolf]

148. I do. I just don't use them. Unlike you.

[WillTwain]

161. Aw, come on just the top 20

i am not asking for a comprehensive list just the easy ones.

[wyldwolf]

165. I'll leave the right wing smears to you.

[leftofcool]

154. I refuse to use the right wing smears against any Democrat whether I like them or not

There are many things the right wing will hit Warren on if she decides to run as well as Bernie. Some may be true and some not but I absolutely refuse to do what many DUers here are doing to Hillary. The ageism and sexism and non-scandals are coming straight from Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, Free Republic and other rw rags that aren't even fit for print. Can you imagine what it would be like around here if we used some of the right wing links to what is being said about Warren?

[WillTwain]

162. I am just trying to make him/her put her money where his/her mouth is

Questioning Hillary's authenticity is fair game. It is not ageism or sexism or mysoginist. It is something at the core of her political belief system that will direct her presidency. We have been fooled too many times with empty rhetoric. These are serious times. We better get it right this time.

[wyldwolf]

164. So do I. WillTwain, on the other hand, has no problem with it.

[WillTwain]

166. Can you point out the right wing "smears?"

Thank you kindly.

[wyldwolf]

169. post #95, 'valid point.'

[WillTwain]

171. Very weak

A general comment made about human nature with room for possible exceptions is a very weak argument on your behalf,

You are welcome to try again.

[wyldwolf]

173. So saying a right wing smear is a 'valid point' is cool to you?

[WillTwain]

177. Explain the right-wing smear.

[wyldwolf]

184. The only source for it is from right-wing sources

Can you provide any other source for it?

Clear enough? Are you even reading this thread?

[WillTwain]

188. Source of what?

[wyldwolf]

189. Of what you said was a valid point

[WillTwain]

191. Huh?

[wyldwolf]

193. Huh?

[WillTwain]

265. Huh?

[wyldwolf]

267. Huh?

[WillTwain]

268. The Bible says man is better to be alone in a desert than live with a contentious wife.

A version of this applies to you.

[wyldwolf]

269. Sounds like you'd be better off single.

[WillTwain]

270. Huh?

[wyldwolf]

271. Huh?

[1StrongBlackMan]

155. So is Elizabeth Warren. n/t

[Smarmie Doofus]

132. Her "every word is a study in calculated artifice."

Someone wrote that about Rockefeller in 1968 but it's even more true of Clinton.

[WillTwain]

139. Triangulator in chief

The thing is all this dicking around with language will get us nowhere. We need radical change not calculated language aimed at navigating to a political victory.

We need leadership not just political ambition. It is hard to imagine her turning this ship around.

[itcfish]

152. This is why Republicans Win Elections

n/t

[WillTwain]

158. Like they did in 2008 and 2012

This is why stealth republicans are elected by democrats.

[sadoldgirl]

180. You are quite correct

about living in serious times, which ask for dramatic changes.

I don't see it coming though. Let us assume for a minute
that Bernie will get to the WH. Then what?

It would need a huge win for the Dems in both
Houses of Congress, it would mean a terrific change
in attitude by CIA,FBI,NSA, MIC, etc.

I agree with Thom H.'s assessment:
As long as there are long lines at Starbucks, people
will not really insist on substantial change.

So we are very far away from such a situation,IMHO.

[WillTwain]

186. THere are sad times.

It will take a revolution. For me, I at least want to go down fighting with Bernie or Liz in charge.

[OilemFirchen]

239. Anyone else feel their teeth rotting?

Could just be me, I guess.

[wyldwolf]

194. Lol. 'progressives' can't win national elections so...

Everyone must be a 'stealth republican.'

[WillTwain]

203. You have an uncanny ability to strip intelligence out of every conversation

Were you a Reagan speech writer?

[wyldwolf]

204. Diverting from the topic again, I see.

[WillTwain]

206. What is your topic?

I can't seem to find it.

[wyldwolf]

207. I'll ask you again: Is every Democrat you can't beat a 'stealth Republican?'

[WillTwain]

209. I voted for Bill and Barack both times.

What are you trying to say. We need to learn from our mistakes.The "new democrats" are now old. We now need the original old democrats to be new again.

Why is this about winning or losing when it should be about right or wrong?

Hillary, by all indications, is a stealth republican. This may change. If so, I am excited to get behind her.
She appears inevitable.

[wyldwolf]

210. But you just called Obama a 'stealth Republican.' Did he trick you? LOL

[WillTwain]

213. In 2008, I got behind him. By 2009, I knew better but by 2012 it was Obama or Romney/Ryan

In 2008, I was an Edwards guy, then got behind Obama after he won the primary.

In 2012, I could not punish my loved ones so Obama got my vote.

What is with the LOL thing? It comes off petty.

To clarify, yes, Obama is a stealth republican.

[wyldwolf]

214. So Obama AND Edwards 'stealth Republicans' who tricked you.

[WillTwain]

216. No, Edwards was great on labor issues

He was the "two America's" guy - way ahead of his time.

Obama did not trick me either, he got my vote by default both times. Again, your uncanny i sstripping intelligence out of every conversation. Your interpretations are extremely bias.

In 2008, I was constantly pointing out to friends that Obama hasn't said anything solid. They kept saying, just wait he has something up his sleeve. Wrong.

[wyldwolf]

220. He would have made a great used car salesman

[WillTwain]

224. Why?

[wyldwolf]

225. he tricked someone as politically astute as you.

[WillTwain]

229. How? When?

He was the right guy for the right time and I backed him. We would be in a much better place if Obama thought like him. I fear the same can be said for Hillary, too.

Thanks for the astute compliment. You are showing signs of appreciation. Very Nice.

[wyldwolf]

234. How? By making you believe him. When? Apparently it's ongoing

In 2000, he helped found the “New Democrat Coalition” for the centrist Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) along with Sen. Joe Lieberman and others. Then, for his 2004 presidential run, he staked out the populist “Two Americas” theme. By 2008, he’d completed a total morph into a class warrior who pandered to the farthest reaches of the Democratic Left.

The poor suddenly became a great concern to him after his 2004 loss – yet he saw no disconnect in building a massive mansion as he crusaded for the poverty-stricken.

[WillTwain]

245. People evolve like Obama on marriage equality

he grew up working class with a union electrician brother, IBEW, he was the first modern candidate to put inequality on the platform. We will never know what he would have done, but he was making people aware and setting up a fight - something Obama never did.

The movement will start with a candidate that recognizes the problem, campaigns on it and is forced to follow through. Not by politicians that are unaware, afraid or indifferent.

[wyldwolf]

246. Sure they do.

But Obama wasn't doing things counter to his position on Gay marriage once he evolved.

[Android3.14]

167. That girl never worked a real job in her life

It's been nothing but peaches and cream from the moment she was born. She's never been hungry, never relied on public assistance, never denied anything so her mother could purchase medicine, never had to arrange a deal when she couldn't pay the rent on time.

She understands income inequality about as well as a chicken understands dentistry.

[WillTwain]

172. She may understand

but gives no evidence. All we can do is judge her by her record and her calculated rhetoric. She is weak on workers issues.

Is she pushing for $12 or more minimum wage? Not as far as I have heard. Is she endorsed by Richard Trumka? Hell no. Is she for expanding S.S.? She will not say.

Who is she and what is her specific agenda?

[LittleBlue]

174. She has zero charisma, that's one of her problems

I can't recall a national presidential level politician with a more forced personality since Al Gore. Remember his hilariously forced kiss with Tipper? That's Hillary in a nutshell.

It's one of the reasons Obama beat her from such an improbable deficit. She's boring. She tries to be folksy to show that she's more human, but it always comes across as painfully forced. And when she raises her voice to show that she's passionate, it's not only fake sounding but also brutal on the eardrums (though in recent years she's got better at it, someone must have had a word with her.)

[winter is coming]

176. Some politicians have the gift of seeming sincere, whether or not they actually are.

Some don't.

[WillTwain]

178. Bullseye

[LittleBlue]

182. Exactly. Bill's charisma is like a force of nature

Almost hypnotic. I've never seem anything like it from a politician in my lifetime. He flexed it again during the 2012 convention. For 15 minutes everyone forgot his shortcomings and believed everything he said.

For whatever reason, it didn't rub off on Hillary. Maybe it's just something one can't learn. It's been a problem hanging around her neck since she entered politics.

[WillTwain]

190. He is amazing.

He could sell encyclopedias to the tea-party.

Hill needs one thing - authenticity. She cannot bullshit like Bill.

[closeupready]

195. Can't stand Bill Clinton or much of what he did - but I have to agree he's a magnetic speaker.

And no, I don't think you can learn it - Bill likes people, and enjoys being a leader, whereas Hillary wants the status of being president and someone worth 100's of millions of $$$, but doesn't want the responsibility of protecting the weak and powerless that comes with that job.

[tularetom]

228. She's uncomfortable campaigning, uncomfortable with people and it shows

Bill Clinton and Obama are master bullshitters, they love the give and take of a political campaign. Even when you know they're bullshitting, you sort of like to hear it because they seem so at ease with it.

Hillary on the other hand, looks like she'd rather be anywhere else in the world than at campaign events. It's so obvious and sort of embarrassing that it overpowers her message and makes you cringe to watch her. And as for all the contentions that she has a particular appeal to white working class Americans, that's just total bullshit and condescending to boot. I know white working class Americans, they're my neighbors. I guess I'm one as well, or I would be if I weren't retired. Hillary isn't fooling them, no matter how many cute little anecdotes she can rattle off about her daddy taking her out behind the shed to show her how to fire a gun.

And yes, emailgate is crap, but her response to it did not serve her well. She's the most guilty looking American political figure since Richard Nixon.

So she embodies all the crappy republican lite policies of Bill Clinton with none of the good ol boy charm and charisma. It'll be a long four years of accusations and denial if she's elected.

[WillTwain]

254. Nice Post

I agree with you right down the line. She, like Obama, wants a place in history - first this or that. She, like Obama, have little interest or passion for bovine issues like wages and financial security.

[Thinkingabout]

181. Now if I was interested in presenting a candidate I would show their strong points and talk about

their ability of handing the job for which I want them to run. If I knew there was not another candidate who was most capable of handing the office and the candidate I would like to have does not measure up to this other candidate I could resort to trashing the more qualified because the candidate I am pushing I don't have good areas to present as their good points and their experience is not enough to present.

[WillTwain]

192. This post is about authenticity.

i will post plenty of OPs specifically boasting about Bernie in the future. This post is focused on Hill's credibility on workers issues.

[Thinkingabout]

199. Then I can post about his credibility and why Hillary is qualified and can win.

[WillTwain]

200. Certainly

[hifiguy]

198. She has the same light touch as a German jazz band.

And the easy charm of a department store mannequin when trying to deal with us common folk and our concerns.

She has been hanging around the plutocrats and absorbing their world view for far too long.

[appalachiablue]

282. +!

[bvar22]

201. The following clip demonstrates how FAR out of touch Hillary is...

...about Working Class issues:

[liberal_at_heart]

205. She is more at ease when it is bank executives she is speaking to. That is after all her crowd.

[WillTwain]

208. It is amazing how her phrasing gets tighter depending on the subject.

Wealth distribution is virgin territory.

[WillyT]

230. That's Because It's Foreign To Her... And Many Of Her Colleagues & Supporters

[quadrature]

248. I feel your poverty ......is that going to sell?

from a person that makes
$300,000 for a 40 minute speech.

maybe, maybe not.

[WillTwain]

258. FDR meant it and he was rich. For some reason he enjoyed humiliating the powerful.

Maybe, because he knew first hand how average they were. Hill is a bad actress who will still be our next president.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

259. Hillary is trying out her best Elizabeth impersonation, but it just comes across as forced, not genuine.

[WillTwain]

266. A few lessons in method acting

and she will be up to speed.

[DeSwiss]

261. She even had Rahm sputtering......

- She admits that ''they've been given great opportunities.'' Whatever those are -- they must be quite valuable......

K&R

[JEB]

283. She may have been refering to fresh ideas

rather than money.