Let me flip the coin over and ask the reverse question,....... if it's allowed.

[NM_Birder]

I'm framing this question in the SAME manner as was posed to DU , only reversing the race question.

Why should white people as a group love black people as a group ? should they ?

the VAST majority of white people are not racist, bigoted or oppress black people as a function of our heritage. Yet, as a collective race, .......white people as a group .........are collectively accused of being racist, privileged and oppressive to black people.

I am not be a racist, .....bigoted nor white privileged,..... so in the eyes of DU, I simply "don't get it".

So, should white people love black people as a group ? If not, why not. If so, why so ?

[arcane1]

1. Being collectively privileged is not the same as being collectively racist

I've seen none of the latter accusation here.

[Inkfreak]

2. I don't think anyone's saying you're a racist.

Just that policies enacted over the years have contributed to creating an unfair system in which minorities get the shaft.

I think people should stop equating racism with the image of a klansman and start looking at it in terms of societal mobility. Despite republican claims, it is not a country where hard work & determination alone, will drive you to success.

I'm sure others will be along to post it better than I could. I think the important thing is to not generalizations personally.

EDA: we should all want our fellow Americans to be able to succeed and prosper in this country. And when we ignore those in need here, we fail as citizens.

[JaneyVee]

3. Hundreds of years of free labor, which...

The fruits of their labor made America the most attractive place for white immigrants from all over the world to come to. Also, blacks cannot be racist, they can be bigoted, but racism comes from structural power. None of which blacks in America have.

[cali]

7. ack. you make it sound like white immigrants did nothing.

and they did. Do we have to go from one one-sided history to another?

[bravenak]

8. They certainly did not do it for free, or for black folks.

[jeff47]

12. Depends on what you mean by "free"

A good number of the white people who first settled the US were indentured servants. Whether or not you consider their labor "free" is not clear-cut.

Though the "black folks" had it worse.

[bravenak]

14. Free as in their entire life's work was done for free.

Never got paid until they died, free. Not as payment for an expensive trip or debts. Free. That kinda free as in got nothing out of it.

[jeff47]

20. And that happened to a good number of the indentured servants.

Basically, the entire process of "settling" the US was a massive shitfest upon a lot of people.

Blacks and native americans could probably have a "got shit upon" contest. There'd only be a small number of white entrants in that contest.

[bravenak]

23. Exactly.

[KittyWampus]

119. Not such a small number of white entrants.

And this is just Virginia. I am a history geek. A lot went on in the Americas before the slave system was up and running.

http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Indentured_Servants_in_Colonial_Virginia

With a long history in England, indentured servitude became, during most of the seventeenth century, the primary means by which Virginia planters filled their nearly inexhaustible need for labor. At first, the Virginia Company of London paid to transport servants across the Atlantic, but with the institution of the headright system in 1618, the company enticed planters and merchants to incur the cost with the promise of land. As a result, servants flooded into the colony, where they were greeted by deadly diseases and often-harsh conditions that killed a majority of newcomers and left the rest to the mercy of sometimes-cruel masters. The General Assembly passed laws regulating contract terms, as well as the behavior and treatment of servants. Besides benefiting masters with long indentures, these laws limited servant rights while still allowing servants to present any complaints in court.

[delrem]

28. "Though the "black folks" had it worse."

No shit.
You realize that if these "black folks" (aka slaves) had children, those children were born slaves and could be *sold* to whites on the open market? You realize that if these "black folks" upset their white owners, they could be slaughtered? Stop for a few months and start thinking about the ramifications of that, before trying to set up some terms of equivalence with the European poor.

It shouldn't be hard. It wasn't all that long ago.

[jeff47]

30. The point of adding that sentence was to emphasize that it was an aside.

Not to create "who got the shittiest treatment" contest.

[gollygee]

74. They were not kidnapped and bought and sold and worked to death

in an attempt to make as much money off them as possible over their lives.

[jeff47]

77. Yes, defrauded instead of kidnapped.

The rest applies.

Again, not starting a "who had it shittier" contest.

[gollygee]

80. You seem to be.

You're making a false comparison. Indentured servitude was difficult but it isn't comparable to slavery.

http://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/feature/indentured-servants-in-the-us/


Servants typically worked four to seven years in exchange for passage, room, board, lodging and freedom dues. While the life of an indentured servant was harsh and restrictive, it wasn't slavery. There were laws that protected some of their rights. But their life was not an easy one, and the punishments meted out to people who wronged were harsher than those for non-servants. An indentured servant's contract could be extended as punishment for breaking a law, such as running away, or in the case of female servants, becoming pregnant.

For those that survived the work and received their freedom package, many historians argue that they were better off than those new immigrants who came freely to the country. Their contract may have included at least 25 acres of land, a year's worth of corn, arms, a cow and new clothes. Some servants did rise to become part of the colonial elite, but for the majority of indentured servants that survived the treacherous journey by sea and the harsh conditions of life in the New World, satisfaction was a modest life as a freeman in a burgeoning colonial economy.

In 1619 the first black Africans came to Virginia. With no slave laws in place, they were initially treated as indentured servants, and given the same opportunities for freedom dues as whites. However, slave laws were soon passed – in Massachusetts in 1641 and Virginia in 1661 –and any small freedoms that might have existed for blacks were taken away.

As demands for labor grew, so did the cost of indentured servants. Many landowners also felt threatened by newly freed servants demand for land. The colonial elite realized the problems of indentured servitude. Landowners turned to African slaves as a more profitable and ever-renewable source of labor and the shift from indentured servants to racial slavery had begun.

[jeff47]

85. No, you want me to be.

I brought in an aside that a different group also got screwed. I never claimed they got screwed worse.

[DebJ]

92. Actually man were kidnapped.

This is just the first link I found, not particularly informative other than the quote, but I read about this in many places while completing my degree to teach US History in high school.

"In addition, while many indentured servants came willingly to the Americas due to periods of low wages and poor living conditions in Western Europe, significant numbers were also kidnapped, or transported as convict labor."
http://ldhi.library.cofc.edu/exhibits/show/africanpassageslowcountryadapt/introductionatlanticworld/new-world-labor-systems--europ


Just trying to recall from the top of my head, ship captains could just have people ripped off the streets in London and elsewhere, transport them to North America, and get paid, make a profit. Something along those lines. Might not have been the ship captains, but there was a dire need for labor in the Americas, and people were kidnapping people off the streets and sending them over.

[cali]

22. Of course not, but that wasn't the premise- or even mentioned- in the post I

corrected. (of course there were indentured servants- and no I'm not claiming it was the same thing. I am saying they weren't compensated)

[bravenak]

26. I know. Sorry if I seemed curt. It was not my intention.

[JaneyVee]

11. Not my intention. White immigrants did do a lot, but....

Most were compensated for their labor. I was referring to the first couple of hundred years of America, and was answering OP question of why whites should love blacks.

[Rex]

4. Just out of curiosity, are you a Christian?

Because if so, then you are supposed to love everyone unconditionally no matter what race or gender.

[cali]

5. this, I think, is a disaster in the making

I think you're wrong as well. I think most white people are racist and you clearly haven't the vaguest understanding of what white privilege is.

[bravenak]

6. This should be interesting.

I'll be quiet.

[KamaAina]

9. Aw, crap!

That is not the response I was hoping for.

[bravenak]

10. This guy is not going to answer.

This is probably a hit and run. I would give him the real but this attemps is filled with errors. He is another 'non believer' in white privilege. TBH.

[greatauntoftriplets]

18. Have a snack!

[bravenak]

21. I know, right.

Wish we had pizza on the menu.

[yuiyoshida]

31. I have mine!!

Just made it with some tasty powdered garlic!!

[bravenak]

34. All this waiting for the Op makes me thirsy.

Wonder if he's coming back.

[yuiyoshida]

37. Yeh its like a bar tender who said..I will be right back -going to the bathroom

and sneaked out the back door..

HEEEEEEEEEELlLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ???? ANYONE THERE??????????

[bravenak]

41. For real!! All this effort to re-word my op and he doesn't seem to care about our answers.

Must have pissed him off really bad.

[yuiyoshida]

43. UNLESS you know he really is stuck in the bathroom...

Someone should go check and see if he has fallen in...

[bravenak]

47. He's probably cracking up with glee right now, hoping he pissed us off.

That could cause a bathroom issue. You may be right.

[yuiyoshida]

48. They say most

Criminals come back to the scene of the crime to admire their own work, cause no one will...but hey he's not even here poking it with a stick to see if if it moves!

[bravenak]

49. It's crazy!

He should at LEAST be curious.
I think he should.

[yuiyoshida]

51. yes...and guess what...

time for a second batch!!! (I'm hungry today)

[NM_Birder]

84. lol, nah, trust me you won't get me upset, you can't.

I very deliberately didn't answer, so as not to affect the responses. There is a much more concentrated effort to "teach me a lesson" than to understand the hypocrisy of some of the responses.

I've been called everything from Phill Robertson to a klan member and everything in between. Who could have predicted that ? LOL

The vast majority of the responses, yours in particular, have displayed the exact "pack mentality" that seem desperate to prove that because I'm white, I have somehow been shielded from difficulty and given advantages because of my skin color. You know what that right ? that's called racism.

thank you Bravenak, all yours and other posters comments were appreciated, pretty predictable, but appreciated non the less.

please don't fret, I'm not ignoring you, I would just rather hear what you have to say without guiding your beliefs by my presence. The charge to prove me a racist has been inspiring, truly. But I certainly will be looking in, just as i have been.

take care.

[bravenak]

86. Nice to hear from you, dear.

You notice how i never ACTUALLY called you any names? I was waiting to see what you had to say before deciding you were a racist. It's easier to just wait and let a person prove what they are. I actually make it a point to NOT call DUers racist. The trolls give me enough bullshit, no need to borrow trouble.

Now, here goes:

We liv in a society that has been set up under a system of white supremacy. Being born white in this nation means you are the 'beneficiary' of a 400 year system of white privilege. That is why you get called obtuse and things of that nature if you deny it. There is no place in America where the cops will stop you just for being white. You can be nondescript in a crowd. If the city need ticket revenue, you get passed up so they can stop me. It is a privilege to blend in. To not suffer systematic racism is a privilege when your race is the ONLY race that does not suffer under white supremacy, but instead benefits from it. You also have the privilege to ignore the 400 year history of white supremacy and pretend that some black lady on the internet is the 'real racist'.

Explaining white supremacy and white privilege is Not racism. You can fight the idea until the day you are dead. But it is our reality.

I'm glad you enjoyed yourself.

[NM_Birder]

90. lol, never ACTUALLY called me names ? lol

trust me, I'll live. Notice how I never ACTUALLY said you called me names ?

you can choose to live your life however you want, and i wish you the best of luck. if you want to live under the impression that the US is a white supremacist, racist environment that is certainly your right. people find whatever they are looking for so long as they are truly looking for it, if you want to live with the belief that any failure to achieve can simply be blamed on "the whites" and the 400 years of oppression, more power to you. Are there racists / sure there are, and people are faced with challenges they should not have to face, but that is not the norm, and calling an entire race of people to blame IS the very essence of racist belief.

is it your belief that black people who are able to achieve their goals, succeed in careers, become elected not just president but to positions in ALL levels of government all over the country are "allowed" by whites ? Are they simply lucky ?

here is a hint, when you say things like "400 years of white supremacy" as a means to describe your plight. that's racist. In all reality I doubt you are a racist,...... but you sure try had to make every difficulty in life the fault of "white supremacy" as you so frequently like to say.

I don't plan of fight anything till the day I die, and people who say they will are most often exaggerating for attention. I hope you are not under the impression, that I hope to change your mind, nobody can do that but you. Best of luck Bravenak, I honestly could not care less if you are a lady or a gentleman, I would like to say I'm surprised you said that....... But I'm not.

Be well, and good luck. I do enjoy my life, I hope you do too.

[bravenak]

98. This post was strange.

Have a nice day.

[NM_Birder]

102. you too.

[Kalidurga]

115. You remind me of the Holocaust deniers

Yes there has been almost 400 years of POC being enslaved or treated in harsh ways by Europeans on this continent. It started in Europe so even if it wasn't on what is now the US it has been for hundreds of years. You are also very condescending and rude, I don't care it's just an observation. If you were this overbearing with me in real life oh I probably still wouldn't care. If I did end up caring it wouldn't end well.

[NM_Birder]

117. what is POC ?

I'm touched that you took the time to respond, to basically say nothing, except offer a platform to thump your chest at me. If you didn't care you wouldn't have slid that precious little threat into your comment,..... just like your response to me,...... your threat assumes more you are capable of understanding.

You moved me, truly. But then so does my morning coffee.
be well.

[marym625]

110. You are living in lala land

Sounds like you have fun there, along with, perhaps, a little bit of hardship.

Racist, misogynist, bigot, lover of all living things, defender of the oppressed. Whatever you are or are not, one thing is certain; you are a pompous ass.

Have a great night

[bravenak]

111. I approve this message.

[marym625]

112. Thanks!

[bravenak]

113. You're welcome, beautiful.

[marym625]

116. awe! Thank you again, sweets!

[NM_Birder]

118. chuckled at, then ignored your childish insults, you have a great night too.

[MineralMan]

95. I just finished an Unagi bento box.

Yum!

[yuiyoshida]

100. lucky man!

I hope you enjoyed it. I love Unagi sushi.. and never get to have it as much as I would like.

[MineralMan]

101. I love Unagi!

[greatauntoftriplets]

32. That'd taste good right about now!

Something to wash it down.

[bravenak]

35. I had the same thought up above, TBH.

We RadFems/SJW/Doomers think alike.

[NM_Birder]

94. That sums it up perfectly.

there are "believers in white supremacy".
and there are "non-believers in white supremacy".

you choose to live your life with the belief that "whites" as a race are in control of black peoples lives. I don't, but because I'm white "I don't get it". What is your explanation for black people that agree with me ?


Yours truly, "this guy"

[bravenak]

97. You should look up the definitions.

[NM_Birder]

103. of what ?

400 years of white supremacy ? that told me everything.

[KamaAina]

13. Hmmm... let me see... jazz, Creole cuisine, R&B, gospel, the Tuskegee Airmen,

Dr. Charles Drew (who developed the A-B-O system of blood typing), George Crum (who invented the potato chip after a customer sent his fried potatoes back because they were too thick!), Denzel Washington... need I go on?

Fact: Harlem is packed with tour buses these days. The tourists, by and large, are Europeans, who are looking forward to a taste of African-American culture. Imagine that.

[jeff47]

15. Oooo. Edgy. I'm sure you'll trap what Fox calls the "real racists". (nt)

[trumad]

16. Nice hit and run...

[demmiblue]

17. Seriously?!

Nice try.

[Dont call me Shirley]

19. Refer to the Backpack Theory...

"White privilege is like an invisible weightless backpack of special provisions, maps, passports, codebooks, visas, clothes, tools and blank checks."

http://www.uakron.edu/centers/conflict/docs/whitepriv.pdf

[bravenak]

24. I knew you'd hit and run.

Probably had this planned all weekend. I'll come back and check on it later. See if you've reappeared.

[JustAnotherGen]

39. nope - don't do it!

[bravenak]

46. Waste of time?

But he seems so earnest and open. Just wants to ask the hard questions. I love privilege deniers most. TBH.

[JustAnotherGen]

69. uh - yep! waste of time!

just got back from acupuncture so feeling pretty zen. Don't waste the pretty!

[cyberswede]

25. ...

[Rex]

29. Why would you think it is not allowed to say such a thing?

Already working from preconceived notions are we?

Fail.

[JustAnotherGen]

33. nope!

[bravenak]

36. !

[JustAnotherGen]

40. asked answered

[bravenak]

42. It was the only logical answer.

Too bad he's missing it.

[bravenak]

73. You are creepy. I'm not telling you about smartphones. You have to find out about them on your own.

[whatthehey]

38. The initial thread was too long for my patience so I'll ask it here

How many people have contributed to this discussion without considering the huge spectrum between love and hate? I neither love nor hate any race as a construct, or even individual members whom I don't know very well. I can think of only a very small number of people, all white FWIW, to whom I would apply either of those emotions. Everybody else I just treat as generic people, with reasonably reserved good will until other intents are warranted. what's wrong with that?

[Starry Messenger]

44. Oh boy, that's all kinds of special!

[AngryAmish]

50. Boy, this is going to be stupid.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

52. I think you should sprinkle a couple of TBHs and IMHOs on the OP to make it

even better.

[yuiyoshida]

53. hit and run

[Hoyt]

54. Nice you saw the need to post this crud. Hope it didn't trouble you through the weekend.

[ScreamingMeemie]

55. We're having breakfast for dinner! nt

[sadoldgirl]

56. Yes, a hit and run!

I did that twice without realizing it, because I had a reasonable question.
Unfortunately after waiting for 15 min. nobody answered, and -since it was
rather late for me- I went to bed.

But this is nobodies bedtime yet, and the question is silly.
So, yes, a hit and run and a big fail.

[one_voice]

57. Well I'm going with this...

I love all of you.

[Bluzmann57]

58. I can't speak for others...

I can only speak for myself. I judge all people by their character regardless of skin color, sexual orientation or anything else.
I have met African Americans who were all right and some who were assholes just as there are Caucasians, Asians and so on that are ok and others who are assholes. For instance, the AA who tried to steal a tape deck out of a car I once owned=asshole. The Caucasian who threw garbage in my yard= asshole. The AA who helped me clean up said garbage= good guy. And so on.
I guess this isn't really an answer to your question, but it's all I got.

[KamaAina]

59. So, is he back yet?

Is he?

[B Calm]

63. Nope! It's another hit and run. .

[Texasgal]

65. Lovingly referred to as

" swoop" and "poop". UGH.

[Codeine]

60. Also, why not a White History Month?!

Where's my White Entertainment Channel and my Miss White America pageant?! Ivory Magazine?! WHERE'S MY FUCKING WHITE FRIDAY SALE?!

[tishaLA]

66. To say nothing of "White Sales" in January!

It's as if American retailers want to enact white slavery or something!

[gollygee]

75. Where is the White Entertainment Television channel?? !! ??

LOL

[Bobbie Jo]

78. Here:

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[gollygee]

79. ROFL!! n/t

[B Calm]

61. When you live the life as a black person, get back with us!

[Texasgal]

62. You ignored my last reply to you

So I am going to ask you again.


Is it possible to accept that you've been given more opportunity by design? If not, why?

[LiberalAndProud]

64. And people wonder why we self-segregate.

Not racist, maybe. Just tone-deaf, I suppose.

[GeorgeGist]

67. Why don't you tell us why they shouldn't be.

Since that is your default position.

[upaloopa]

68. From a white person to you, I don't think

you understand the idea of privilege. It is nothing you did but it is something you get that other people don't get.
As I see it and experienced it over my 69 years, White people generally get treated by society better than Black people do.
I don't think anyone can honestly deny that is the case.

[Nye Bevan]

70. This kind of post rarely results in a productive or helpful discussion.

All DUers of good faith acknowledge that racism still exists in this country and we need to do what we can to end it. But I don't think that this will be achieved by posts that (rightly or wrongly) appear to be pitting racial groups against each other.

[NM_Birder]

96. I could not agree with your post more,

but don't let some know that, otherwise you'll just be racist too.

[Warpy]

71. This is just as stupid a post as the last one was.

Our job is to figure out how to get along with each other in mutual respect after years of abuse and suspicion.

It's the same thing we're facing in NM with tribal people.

Love's got nothing to do with it.

[NM_Birder]

91. wait a minute.

What exactly is the same thing?. And I'll be honest, I've never heard anyone use the term "tribal people".

[A-Schwarzenegger]

81. One big diff:

bravenak showed up.

[delrem]

82. First, I think you're trolling because you posted your OP, then ran.

That's about what I figure a person who'd post an OP like this would do.

I object to your use of the term 'love'.

I especially object to your use of the term 'love' in this argument, painting people as general groups being capable of 'love', as in the whole so-called "white" group and "black" group being called on to "love".
What a shitty locution.

Secondly, I think you ought to respond to the actual post that you refer to, as set up for your OP.

This doesn't smell right.

So, thanks for letting me meet you.

[1StrongBlackMan]

83. posted to for later.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

87. agape. YES!

[RobinA]

88. Nobody

"should" love anybody as a group. Do no harm and love who it's in you to love.

People who choose to not like a group...well, it's their loss. They may have missed out on some really interesting people. Or not.

[marym625]

89. Wow!

You are in a state of deep denial

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. Because a) it's right and b) they've done nothing to you. For black people, only "a" applies. n/t

[bravenak]

99. I like this answer.

[marym625]

109. I do to

Not at all fond of the OP.

[bobclark86]

104. How about this:

Treat people as you want to be treated.

[NM_Birder]

105. I think that is perfect.

fair and reasonable. But there is a problem, I'm white. which to some,........ means I've been given a free pass to the front of all lines and don't understand how to relate to people because of my "white privileged" life.


read thru the posts you will have to add, "400 years of white supremacy" . No I'm not sure where the other 150 some odd years of oppression are from.

[Android3.14]

106. More clickbait

It was obnoxious the first time 'round, and it's obnoxious now.

How about we forget about loving races and worry more about loving our neighbors?

[seabeyond]

107. blacks have done nothing to me. why shouldnt i like them as a whole? nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

108. The whole concept of "loving" a certain type of people is.....a bit goofy.

All of them? All the time?

The opposite of both love and hate is indifference. Which is true of most people most of the time.

[Rex]

114. You should always assume human nature is decent

and should never base judgment on superficial reasoning imo. It seems simple for young children, I don't know why it is so hard to understand as we get older.

I can't believe this is a topic of confusion on a progressive website, but here we are.