Had a fascinating moment concerning "God's Plan"...

[PCIntern]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by greatauntoftriplets (a host of the General Discussion forum).

yesterday a lady came to see me whose husband is quite a bit older than she and she informed me that he had had a terrible tumor which had severely damaged him and he transitioned from being a fully-functional working man and husband to a diaper-wearing, lacking-short-term-memory, invalid who is in and out of semi-consciousness. She and her husband attended church regularly on Sundays and the pastor sought her out and said to her that she was sorry but this was all part of God's Plan. The parishioner, usually pretty contained, went all-out angry and demanded to know how medically torturing individuals in this manner, killing children, waging war against innocents, and the like was all part of some Plan. I can only imagine...she's tough as nails and physically imposing. I would be cringing and in great fear if she ever took off after me, I can tell you that much.

But the story doesn't end there: my employee who has lived her life defending this way of thinking was stunned into silence. I'm usually pretty circumspect when it comes to these issues but after the lady left, I said to my assistant, "I suppose she's stopped drinking the Kool-Aid." I said to no one in particular and left the room.

I'm tired of this rationalization for tolerance and thus acceptance of evil things and bad things. Just tired of listening to it with many of those who promulgate it being the utmost of hypocrites themselves.

[madokie]

1. It's gods will

Tornado in ok day before yesterday and they were interviewing people on the teevee and they mostly were all saying it was gods will that they survived etc. f* a bunch of gods will.
You can't change them either, they've drank too much of the stuff for that to ever happen

[joshdawg]

15. I heard those same stories, also.

A picture was shown on the news about a power pole that was broken off from the ground and hanging in the wires. To them, it looked like a cross so they naturally assumed Jesus was looking after them. Talk about a palm meeting a face!
Just way too many religious nut cases out there.

[LondonReign2]

24. Yup, they always think god saved them

How about their all powerful god NOT send the tornado in the first place? That either never occurs to them, or they simply blame the bad thing on "the devil", who, apparently, is much more powerful than god since god can't seem to stop the tornados that the devil sends.

[AllyCat]

30. Man, I am right here with you on this one.

God gets all the credit for the good, and we get all the credit for the bad, or you know, some group we don't like. That picture made me want to scream.

[olegramps]

29. God allows people to be infected with horrendous diseases, then gets credit for there cure.

It is as asinine as it can get. This is the same God that let little innocent kids be stricken with polio when I was growing up. When Dr. Salk developed a vaccine, I heard it proclaimed from the pulpit how thankful we should be that God provided the guidance for its cure. My older brother told me that the Bible thumpers were a pack of dimwits. I am thankful that he awakened me to their ridiculous contradictions.

[thesquanderer]

44. Belief in the God you describe is the highest form of Stockholm Syndrome (n/t)

[atreides1]

56. Heard that

I was thinking "if it was really God's will, why didn't you just stand out in a field as the tornado hit?".

[Fumesucker]

2. Epicurus had the essence of it ~2300 years ago

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?

For me at least it is much more comforting to think there is no God than a malevolent God.

[PCIntern]

3. I like that...printed it up for my (private) office wall. nt

[Delphinus]

5. I have

read that and questioned it and sent it to others for their response. My son - "Mom, that's too much heavy thinking in the morning." It's been so long, but I think I may have asked him to think about it in the afternoon.

But, I love this question and I do ponder it way too much.

[raccoon]

7. No way God, if there is one, can be both all good AND all powerful.

That just won't work.

[Liberalynn]

16. That was the conclusion reached by the author

of Why Bad Things Happen to Good People.

[malthaussen]

18. It's a good quote, but you doubtless see the flaw...

... I'm almost tempted to go on a philosophical rant, here, but my typing isn't up to it yet.

Suffice it that, among the difficulties of Epicurus's observation, one man's good might be another's evil, and there is no way to reconcile that problem. Hence the "God moves in mysterious ways" drivel that the apologists drag out of their knapsacks at first opportunity.

-- Mal

[Mira]

19. I ctr/copied it for printing

then I saw the poster did the same thing - it cramps my stomach to read what I think is truth be so well expressed.

[LittleGirl]

21. Great!

thanks for sharing.

[Chathamization]

40. Is not preventing evil is malevolent? It seems we're all guilty of that to some extent.

Also:

[stone space]

54. Omnipotence is relative. And overrated.

Nuclear weapons were designed and engineered for Omnipotence, for example, but nations like ours who put their Faith in these Gods of Metal for their Salvation still have difficulty controlling events in the real world, despite our nuclear Omnipotence.

[jeff47]

62. Then it isn't omnipotence. (nt)

[stone space]

63. That's silly.

Let's close our eyes and pretend that it doesn't exist, because it violates our preconceived naiive notions.

An alternative might be to make observations and study how Omnipotence operates in the real world, and use that to come to a deeper and more subtle scientific understanding of the nature of Omnipotence and how Omnipotence actually operates in the real world, instead of just in our own imaginations.

[jeff47]

64. No, omnipotence has a definition. If it isn't all-powerful, it isn't omnipotence.

And so far, your examples are things that are not remotely omnipotent.

[stone space]

67. "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."

[bvf]

69. "Omnipotence is relative."

Uh, no it's not.

[monmouth4]

4. After my daughter died in a car accident back in '93 one of the most disturbing and

vile statements made to me was "at least you had her for 23 years." This came from my boss, former FBI guy then lawyer and super Catholic...Made me ill

[PCIntern]

6. I am so sorry...

words fail.

[monmouth4]

11. Thank you PC...

[BlueJazz]

8. I was pretty impressed with the way that God reached his mighty hand down and saved all those...

....passengers that survived in the German plane that almost crashed into the mountains.

[AllyCat]

34. I'm sure that was God's punishment for abortion, gays, vegetarians, swearing

fill in the blank. What vicious Demon they believe in.

[el_bryanto]

9. Why is this in General Discussion? Isn't this specifically a religion question? nt

[malaise]

10. No it's a philosophical question

and a very good one

[el_bryanto]

12. The question seems to be if God is supposed to be all Good and all Powerful

why do terrible things keep happening - aren't discussions on the nature of God specifically religious ones? I mean if you don't believe in God, this issue doesn't arise.

Bryant

[PCIntern]

13. Please allow me to get this straight...

I posted in the wrong forum? Is that right? You would think after eleven years here that I would know which forum to post in. Wotta moron I am...

[el_bryanto]

14. I didn't call you a moron

If there is something that sets this story apart from being specifically religious in nature, than let me know. There doesn't seem to be any clear political link.

Bryant

[PCIntern]

32. I'll be certain to clear my future posts thru you directly.

I thank you for your time and efforts.

[el_bryanto]

38. I'm not a forum moderator and I don't alert on posts but very rarely.

And they may well see this as fine.

Bryant

[sarge43]

33. When bills are passed making a 3K year old religion based prohibition a law in a secular society,

then I'd say they, not PCIntern, has made religion a political question.

[el_bryanto]

37. Which of those laws impacted the situation above? nt

[sarge43]

41. It's a thought about the overall political climate. nt

[el_bryanto]

42. Why then do the forum rules suggest that posts on Guns, Israel/Palestine, and Religion

be put in the appropriate forums?

Bryant

[sarge43]

51. You'll have to ask an admin about that

Now if you believe someone has violated forum rules, then by all means alert on it or report it. A parsing contest won't resolve your question.

[el_bryanto]

53. Alerts and reports - you only get 5 and then you are kicked out for a while

I don't like that - so I don't alert on posts.

Bryant

[abelenkpe]

55. You'd think you'd stop responding

You're just making it worse.

[el_bryanto]

57. making what worse? nt.

[bvf]

43. All that's required to make this a political issue

is a single asshole appealing to religious belief as justification for running for public office.

[el_bryanto]

45. Are you fucking kidding me?

People have been appealing to religious belief as a justification for running for public office since before either you and I were born (unless you are over 200 years old, which seems unlikely). And yet the forum rules clearly state that religious discussions should be held in the religion forum. Do you think the people who run this website are unaware that people have been using religious belief as a justification for running for public office?

No you are clutching at whatever straw lets you shit on religion in as public a forum as possible.

Bryant

[bvf]

48. Nice rant.

I stand by my statement.

When you have elected officials and candidates for public office invoking whatever imaginary being for any reason in order to appeal to the electorate, or to close down women's health clinics, or to attempt to legislate the teaching of creationist bullshit in public schools, or in any other of countless ways to further political agendas, that's as much about politics as anything.

Wake up.

[el_bryanto]

52. I'm pretty wide awake.

Does this particular story have anything to do with appealing to the electorate, closing down woman's health clinics or legislating the teaching of creationist bullshit? No it doesn't.

Are the rules of the forum clear? yes they are.

Why do you think the rules don't appeal to you or the author of this OP?

Bryant

[bvf]

59. So alert or report.

Wait, you don't like the rules, if I take your meaning in #53.

[el_bryanto]

60. I don't like being partially responsible for kicking someone off the forum.

If this thread gets noticed by the moderators and moved to the religion forum, nobody has a strike added to their name.

Bryant

[bvf]

66. I respect that, truly.

Yet I maintain that the simple mention of "god" or "god's will" should not in and of itself be a reason to lock or relegate a thread to the Religion group.

[el_bryanto]

68. Than what should be?

If someone were to post, for example, "What a beautiful day it is outside; I thank God for this beautiful day" in general discussion would that be appropriate as well? Let's take a moment and imagine how that post would be responded to.

Why does the rule exist in the first place? My assumption is that, like Guns and Israel Palestine, the discussion doesn't lead anywhere except to people yelling their positions at each other.

If someone posts about a specific political action inspired by religion or about a politician who invokes God to support his political decisions, well, I don't think anybody has a problem with those sorts of posts being in General Discussion.

Bryant

[bvf]

39. Hear, hear! n/t.

[melm00se]

17. This question is an age old one

(as least as old as Christianity).

Why does God allow __________? (usually something bad/evil/painful)

(This question is also asked (many times derisively) by the areligious.)

There is no quick and easy answer to this question and because of this it is so easy to say the wrong thing especially to those who are experiencing the bad/evil/painful thing or event (as evidenced in the OP).

I am sure that if you summon the google and type in the question "why does god allow suffering?" I am sure that you will be presented with numerous (and I am sure that some will piss someone off as some of the articles will be spun to attack atheism.

[Old Codger]

22. Actually

There is a quick and easy answer to that question..... he neither allows nor causes any of it , he is a figment of peoples imagination created to allay their fears..

Most common answer I have heard repeated adinfinitum Is almost always "it is a matter of faith" Or some such drivel.

[bvf]

36. Truth. n/t.

[melm00se]

46. You don't have to believe

what they believe but it is important to respect their beliefs.

(the best advice on religion I ever received and amazingly it was given to me by a priest after I was being a jerk in Mass)

[Old Codger]

49. I somewhat agree

They have every right to believe as they choose... BUT IMHO and only speaking for myself I have some serious problems with the respect part... A goodly portion of them have little or no respect for my "beliefs" of lack thereof... A poll I saw not too long ago showed that a a rapist had higher standing with religious groups than an atheist...I will give then as much respect as I receive...

[Mira]

20. Is this when you try to soothe yourself

and look for your copy of "When bad things happen to good people" to look for the answer yet again?

[freshwest]

23. The phrase is indicative of saying something when one has nothing to say. n/t

[randr]

25. Using "God" as an excuse for the facts of life and consequences of actions

is only the neglection of ones self responsibility.
A common thread of all conservative thought/action is a lack of responsibility; be it for their personal reality or their responsibility to others on the planet.

[rurallib]

26. if there were a god, the greatest gift we would be given is to be able to work

out answers on our own that do not in the end kill us.
To do so we must conquer ignorance and fear all of which the believers claim their god promotes.

oh we also must overcome republicans - is that redundant?

[Dont call me Shirley]

27. This rationalization gives the corporations/wealthy cover for poisoning/destroying this earth hence

causing all of the rampant disease. Apocalypse is being caused intentionally so a few billionaires can have their wet dream of their messiah.

No on can save you but your own self. You are your own savior. That is reality!

[edhopper]

28. Here is a nice, big Epicurus meme

to use and enjoy;

[img][/img]

[old guy]

35. I have this quote taped to my computer desk.

[chervilant]

31. Interesting...

Recently, I became acquainted (through work) with an ultra-religious couple who were using scraps of laminated particle board (from the countertops made at that workplace) to create crosses. This couple sold some of the crosses, but the majority of them were sent free to soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. This elderly couple had been together and in the same church for decades. About September of last year, the husband came in and told us that his wife was suicidal, had "lost her mind" and was in a local psych ward. He went through the trifecta of rationales: 1) It's God's will, 2) Satan is trying to take over, and 3) God has a plan and we don't necessarily know or understand the plan.

The last time I saw him, he was dressed in new clothes and reeked of a heavy splash of some kind of after shave. He informed me that he had met a "nice lady" at his church (she bought him the new duds), and he was in the process of divorcing his mentally unstable wife (of decades!) so that he could "move on with his life."

I am surrounded by this type of xtian--devout when it's convenient.

[CBGLuthier]

47. When I saw the Colorado legislator's comments about God's Will behind the fetus stealing incident

I had to have a philosophical debate with myself as to whether the legislator or his god were the bigger asshole. Ultimately I decided it was a tie.

[NightWatcher]

50. The "God's plan" is the biggest cop out, surrender monkey, candy assed, dismissive "reasoning"

and it pisses me off so much. Either give a damn or don't, but don't just write off everything terrible or that is wrong in your life to an all-knowing, all-powerful, that either doesn't give a shit, cannot help you, or is more accurately the case DOESN'T EXIST.

All we have is here and now. There are no rewards in the sky for the complacent, nor punishments down below for the non-believer.

And when I'm sick (I have multiple disabling diseases) do not tell me it's for the better or part of some grand plan. I have been fortunate to be able to make it work so far... that is until organs start shutting down and I die to become worm food.

Uggh.

[sendero]

58. If this world is "god's plan"..

.... I'd hate to see the devil's plan.

[Oneironaut]

61. This is why I frequently slide between Deism and Agnosticism.

If God really is in control of the world, then he/she is the biggest asshole to ever exist. So, someone eats an apple, and therefore everyone must suffer for eternity? Combined with the mass murder and torture God does in the Bible, one can conclude that God falls somewhere between Osama Bin Laden and Jack the Ripper. The Bible's God loves watching humans suffer, like ants under a magnifying glass on a clear summer's day. It all sounds like something H. P. Lovecraft would write.

[treestar]

65. It's only to comfort themselves that in the end it will all be OK.

This is why people say this.

[callous taoboy]

70. If you're into Epicurus, I highly recommend "The Swerve."

Fascinating book about how Lucretius's book, On the Nature of Things, made the world modern.

[greatauntoftriplets]

71. Sorry but we're locking this because it doesn't conform to the GD SOP.

RELIGION

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