Name one major environmental AND pet welfare organization that supports keeping pet cats outdoors

[CreekDog]

and list them.

I can only find ones that recommend against keeping cats outdoors.

[allforone]

1. Ask a cat

[CreekDog]

2. Ah, you don't have an answer

thanks for clarifying!

[allforone]

7. Like I said open your door and watch

a cat that has lived indoors for years walk outside.

My love is for animals not how people mistakenly think they should treat them

[RedCappedBandit]

11. My dog tries to eat tons of shit that would kill her

Guess that's good for her because she'll just do it, right?

Brilliant argument!

Anyway, my cat that has lived indoors for years will not walk outside even if I leave my sliding doors open all day.

[Feron]

87. I had a cat that would recycle..

He threw up ,most likely from overeating, on the outside patio that I didn't pick it up in a timely enough fashion.

The next day he went back outside and ate his vomit from the previous day.

One of the cats I have know decided to chew on a piece of pampas grass about 3 years ago. The blades on the grass are very sharp and it tore up the inside of her mouth and throat.

[CreekDog]

13. I didn't ask what you endorse

I asked what experts on cats, what experts on their welfare think.

[allforone]

17. Experts on cats

[CreekDog]

20. i'd settle for some expertise on DU

like not getting hidden within a few days of joining.

[Politicalboi]

25. Wow, and that post got hidden

It's natural for cats to be outdoors. I wonder if people keep their children indoors their whole life so they won't get attacked by a coyote or hit by a car. To each his own. I prefer to let my cat have a whole life rather than kept indoors to be "safe".

[el_bryanto]

28. Do you believe in the theory of evolution?

Just out of curiosity?

Bryant

[ZombieHorde]

56. It's not natural for cats to be in the US.

They damage our ecosystem when they are left outside.

[JEB]

111. That is exactly correct. eom

[snooper2]

145. they damage our ecosystem when the are left inside too!

I am Cat. Fuck all the Things.

[ZombieHorde]

147. Funny video. nt

[Chemisse]

81. I agree.

I know that I expose myself to a lot of dangers in order to live a full and rich life. I would rather die young than not be able to enjoy life to its fullest.

If it's worth it for me, who am I to say it is not worth it for a cat?

[840high]

106. Why was that post hidden?

[Liberal_in_LA]

22. i have an indoor cat. one day she went outside when i entered.

I didn't know she was outside until I heard scratching and wailing at the door. She never did that again.

[Warpy]

80. One of my rescued cats had been an outdoor cat

and after a couple of years of being a pampered and adored indoor cat, he scooted outdoors.

He was back quickly, too, and would run away from the door when I went out, just in case I bumped into him and sent him back out there!

Companion cats don't do well outdoors, even if they're used to it. There is too much out there that will eat them or squash them.

[Liberal_in_LA]

90. yep. They are fine with an indoor life as long as they have access to a window

[BlueCaliDem]

176. Yep. They need to look out and see life out there without wanting to experience it physically.

Our Yenyen has always been an indoor cat. One day, when he found himself outdoors, he went as far as the cinder-block wall and stayed there meowing pathetically until my son came and got him off it. He's refused to go outside ever since. He turned eight years young on February 2nd and is the sweetest most affectionate cat we've ever had.

[yuiyoshida]

118. Fleas and ticks love cats..

Mine will never go outdoors..and He will live a long and healthy life.. without being hit by a car, or chewed up by someone's dog, nor will he bring home fleas (i have experienced infestation with fleas, its horrible!) or ticks that can cause diseases and kill a cat.

[Warpy]

119. The only thing to do about fleas is nuke them from orbit

meaning setting up flea bombs in every room, making sure all pilot lights are out, and checking into a motel for a couple of days while they do their thing. Then you open all the doors and windows and air the place out, wash the sticky insecticide off surfaces and dishes, vacuum everything else, and then move the cats back in---with worm medicine on board, of course.

The most revolting thing I ever saw was a huge tapeworm an outdoor cat horked up. It was enormous, like a whole plate of fettucini, and it was moving. At that point, I bought the bombs, nuked the house, and kept my furry friends indoors.

[hifiguy]

148. I adopted a cat who had been abandoned in winter.

Lost all of one of his ears and half of the other to frostbite. He wouldn't go within six feet of an open door, especially when it was cold out. He loved the nice, warm, comfy indoors above all else.

[Warpy]

149. Cats often realize the natural life is overrated

It's their humans who are usually the problem.

[hifiguy]

151. I think Max's theory was simple.

"There is heat, tuna, comfy chairs and belly rubs in the house. None of that is outside." He knew the score.

[BlueCaliDem]

177. Cats are intelligent creatures! Of course Max knew the score! eom

[smokey nj]

37. Been there, done that and you're wrong.

[kcr]

76. Treating our pets well means allowing them to run out and get killed?

No thanks. I can't imagine applying that logic to any lving thing I'm supposed to care for.

[TheCowsCameHome]

16. I will, if it ever comes home.

Damn thing has been prowling the town since the snow melted.

[hunter]

103. Ask our neighborhood coyotes.

They approve, but the sound of a cat dying in the night is not pleasing to me.

[Orrex]

3. The NAFC

National Association for the Feeding of Coyotes.

[CreekDog]

5. .

[hunter]

107. +1, I replied before scrolling down to see yours.

If they are hungry enough the coyotes around here will even jump fences and take small dogs.

One of the best dogs I've ever known, a coyote sized gentle creature who once brought back home one of my sister's escaped parakeets unharmed, had a few serious coyote fighting scars.

[R B Garr]

175. I saw a coyote warning sign posted in a residential area

here in Orange County where it is nothing but residential. It was shocking. We almost came around to take a picture of it because we found it so shocking for that area. I guess they get around.

[hunter]

182. The coyotes around here are invisible most of the time.

A couple centuries of farmers and ranchers shooting at them has made them hyper-aware and avoidant of any human attention.

I was once taking a shortcut, walking home from the grocery store across an empty field in the evening, and I suddenly felt like someone was watching me. So I stopped, looked around and saw what I first thought was a loose domestic dog. But it simply stared at me. I realized it was a wild thing and we both decided to mind our own business and proceed in opposite directions.

Our youngest dog was feral for a time before the animal control people caught her and she has zero tolerance for coyotes. As soon as she senses one nearby she goes into full alarm mode.

[ScreamingMeemie]

4. It's time for the annual argument already?

The year has flown by! ( )

I'm completely FOR keeping cats indoors, BTW, although Bella is a sneak.

[ileus]

39. Next up Santa Claus...

[Bettie]

72. I've got a Ninja Cat

She is just driven to be outdoors when the weather is good and she is really, really fast.

She does, however, just hang out on the top of the kids' play structure or lounge on the front porch.

Until dog walking time, then, she follows us with the doggies and comes in along with them.

We try to keep her in, but my husband and sons are not particularly observant and she even gets past me sometimes.

The "do not care" if they are outside feline contingent in our home run outside and are immediately paralyzed by the absence of the ceiling.

[ScreamingMeemie]

171. Bella runs to hang out on the waterfall by the pool, and she likes me to chase her

so I don't. She usually comes in rather quickly after that.

The other two also do the step out the door and freeze because,"Whoa, this is not what I expected..." I LOVE when cats do that.

[Bettie]

181. Yeah, I have one that THINKS she wants to go out

and then freezes when she actually gets out there.

Spot likes to be picked up when she wants to come in. So, she won't come through the door until we step out and pick her up. Then, she purrs and purrs....have I mentioned that our pets are much more spoiled than the kids?

[sinkingfeeling]

6. Alley Cat, Neighborhood Cats, ASPCA, USHS all support feral cats and TNR.

[CreekDog]

8. No, the ASPCA recommends keeping pet cats indoors

we are talking about pet cats.

[sinkingfeeling]

9. You didn't specify 'pet cats'.

[CreekDog]

12. updated!

[lumberjack_jeff]

84. In what sense does one "keep" a feral cat?

[tblue37]

91. I have two that were feral when I adopted them. My other two were also rescues, but never feral. nt

[CreekDog]

10. ASPCA: "Keep your cats indoors"

Housing

Your pet should have her own clean, dry place in your home to sleep and rest. Line your cat's bed with a soft, warm blanket or towel. Be sure to wash the bedding often. Please keep your cat indoors. Cats who are allowed outdoors can contract diseases, get ticks or parasites, become lost or get hit by a car, or get into fights with other free-roaming cats and dogs. Also, cats may prey on native wildlife.

https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/cat-care/general-cat-care

[sinkingfeeling]

19. https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/cat-behavior/stray-and-feral-cats

[pipoman]

14. I don't know the back story.

Outdoor cats on the farm are working livestock. They come and go. There are usually a few who retain some of their 9 lives and are able to live a couple of years. Probably 80% don't make it a year between predators and cars. We range between 1 and 20 outdoor cats at any given time. Their job is rodent control. We feed them just enough to hang around they have to hunt for the rest.

[sharp_stick]

18. You could save a shitload of time and money

just by setting traps but that would entail a bit of an energy expenditure on your part so it might be a no go.

[pipoman]

42. yeah, that works in a house, not so much in 3000 square feet of

Outbuildings surrounded by 5 acres of native grass, surrounded by thousands of acres of grain crops. We employ poison in some areas but mostly just feral cats and a lot of black rat snakes, raccoons, owls and hawks...

[CreekDog]

88. what are you attempting to poison?

[pipoman]

93. You mean 'what are you poisoning'?

Livestock feed must be protected from rodent contamination.

[Jim Beard]

121. People who live in town haven't a clue about

nature and natural life. Farms have always had barn cats before the ASPCA was in existence. They are great for pest control and hopelully they will not eats one that some fool has poisoned.

[pipoman]

122. I keep some bar bait in a feed room and a couple old refrigerators

We use for storage..they are dead within hours of eating the bait..I usually only have to replace it once a year in the fall..the rest are up to the several predators around. My favorite are the two pairs of barn owls, they've been here for a couple years now..I like the snakes too..

[riderinthestorm]

26. Im actually kind of horrified at your post

My barn cats are part of my family. I've never lost a single cat to a car or predator. They live for 15+ years and have free choice food and water, access to warm areas in the winter, and are all vaxxed, dewormed and fixed.

You do know cats have to have sufficient food in order to have enough energy to hunt right?

Your callousness towards animals under your care, custody and control is appalling.

[pipoman]

32. I've not one time brought a cat onto this farm...in 12 years

They come here on their own will and leave under the same will..we put the equivalent of a cup of food for each cat that happens to be around at feeding time (same time every day). We have a paved county road that is a 50 mile stretch connecting 2 major highways in front. Every summer we put Frontline on any we can catch...2/3 are simply wild animals...they're happy being wild animals...

Our 2 house cats sit in the windows and lord over the outside riffraff...of coarse both of them were young orphan ferals when we brought them in...

[riderinthestorm]

92. Neither have I, in 30 + years. You can and should be doing better

Losing 80% of your cat population per year is truly awful.

ALL of my barn cats have been dumped. I've never solicited one. I typically catch them in a Have-A-Heart trap set up for raccoons. They're whisked immediately to my vet for vax and to be fixed. During the years, these cats are typically adopted out after they've been socialized. Some stay and that fine by me. I have several decades of experience with this on my own farm.

Please. I beg you to get a local cat rescue involved if you are so unwilling to do right by them.

[pipoman]

96. well..probably 80% of the 80% are eaten by coyotes

Every night...without fail...there are packs of coyotes roaming the area raising hell....I just heard some a few minutes ago when I took the trash out....it is reality..

There isn't anyone rounding up feral farm cats...it would be a full time job for many people...I have lived in farm country, on a farm for 50 years...most farmers feed who ever shows up for dinner...again, feral cats are part of the ecosystem here..they will never be tame, or friendly they are no different than rabbits or squirrels in that regard..an example, a couple of years ago we took in a 4 month old male, had him neutered, he lived in the house for maybe 4 months...he was never happy in the house sitting in the window scratching sometimes to get out...he ran out one day, we saw him a couple of times over the next few days then disappeared likely coyote food....ymmv

[riderinthestorm]

161. The coyotes at my farm come within 10 feet of the barns

you can see their tracks.

I've never lost a cat to a coyote.

I can speak to knowing a hundred or more farmers with the same experience. It doesn't take any effort to ensure they have a safe haven in the face of a coyote attack. I work with my vet to trap, vax, neuter and release those dumped here. It doesn't take an army of folks. It just takes me.

I'm sad reading your posts. Really sad.

[cwydro]

152. I have farm cats too.

They are pampered and loved.

The ones no longer with me lived to 17 and 18 years of age. One was a hunter and one was not.

Casper hunted rodents on the farm, but he also brought me a snake once. The snake lived.

[CreekDog]

30. how are you acquiring these cats?

you most certainly are using them.

[pipoman]

36. they just show up...people drop off litters on the road every summer

We've had females that we'd never seen before bring a litter of 6 week kittens out of our barn...they come and go...

[CreekDog]

43. So you're using these cats for your own benefit (rodent control)

and you have not one ounce of concern for their well-being?

wow.

[pipoman]

55. see post 32 above...maybe I should just shoot them? what the hell am

I supposed to do with them?

[hamsterjill]

58. Wow, your post just reeks with compassion doesn't it?

My sense is that you are allowing the cats to breed incessantly and THAT's a big part of how you're getting all of these cats.

Are there no resources in your area for spay/neuter? Of course, that would involve effort on your part. Doesn't sound like you have enough compassion to even consider expending a little effort.

Most people don't understand the basics of TNR, and the vacuum effect. If a colony of cats is spayed/neutered to 90%, eventually the colony dies out. Catch and kill doesn't work.

Don't know where you're located but shooting cats in most areas is considered animal cruelty and punishable. If you live anywhere near me, please don't tell me.

[pipoman]

67. They've been around for generations

They are part of the ecosystem...I'll let them be, they're not hurting anything...we also have rabbits, squirrels, skunks, armadillos, opossums, raccoons, coyotes, rat snakes, etc.etc....I don't kill anything unless it endangers my family including our indoor pets. The reality of the country is lost on some...this isn't a yuppie urban transplant farm..it's an actual farm...

[hamsterjill]

136. Thank you for at least agreeing to leave them alone and not harm them.

The reality of the country may be lost on some, but I grew up on a ranch in South Texas. An actual ranch.

[pipoman]

141. I don't know where I have stated anything else...

I am a huge nature supporter...spend hundreds annually caring for wild animals...completely tilled 5 acres of unnatural, nutritionally devoid fescue and returned it to native prairie grasses..this resulted in probably a 300% increase in wild birds and wildlife. My reality is different than urban farmers, suburban acre lots, and metropolitan living...I have shot cats and other animals for humane reasons...urbanites pretending they have solutions to problems rural people experience as a part of daily life is silliness ..

[hamsterjill]

143. My issue was with your post # 55

"maybe I should just shoot them".

I don't take comments like that lightly. As I said, thank you for clarifying that you don't intend to harm them.

[pipoman]

144. Yeah, that was a response to #43...that poster is full of

Concern with no solutions...quick to spend my time and money attempting the realistically impossible...that poster left few options beyond killing them all for their own good...it was sarcasm...

[hamsterjill]

146. Great.

Now how about getting some of them spayed and neutered? It's the responsible thing to do...even for barn cats!

[840high]

108. He feeds the, uses flea control. Better

than letting them starve.

[Inkfreak]

62. Lots of cats get left in our neck of the woods, also.

There's a older retired man down the road who set up a sanctuary of sorts for them. It's an old trailer. There's quite a few and they've become a lil feral. He tries to do what he can for them. They love him and I can appreciate what he's doing. We often drop off food & medicine (if we can afford to) He's got a sign up for free cats & people will stop and take one occasionally.

[morningfog]

65. He feeds them.

[get the red out]

21. I'm glad I'm a dog person

I've made enough people mad on DU today already.

I like cats though. Very cute and cuddly.

[pintobean]

23. Oh yeah? Do you like pit bulls?

[get the red out]

41. I have a preference

for herding breeds.

[XemaSab]

89. That an ES?

[get the red out]

124. Border Collie

Or at least AKC agility says so, LOL, she came from the shelter as a pup. Dog smarter than people is what we say in our house.

[XemaSab]

162. You might google English Shepherd

We got one from a shelter without knowing what she was, and yeah, she's smarter than I am.

[get the red out]

183. They are lovely dogs!

I got to see one in person at an agility trial, such a nice dog. Our dog, Layla, is on the small side for an ES though, she's about 35 lbs and 18" at the withers, there are female BCs her size, but I don't think ESs are that small.

It must be a real treat to have an English Shepherd. They aren't all that common but are said to be great dogs.

[XemaSab]

184. I have an ES about that size

they can be great dogs, but they're a handful!

Does your dog have the "eye?"

[get the red out]

188. Yes

It isn't extreme, but it's there. And she goes into over-drive alert when she sees herd animals.

Of course Layla could be anything since her litter was turned in at the shelter, but there are a lot more BCs around our area than ES. The one thing she is though is wonderful, though it's taken training and getting her a job (agility). She goes into warp drive at agility trials, "fast dog in need of a good handler".

[RebelOne]

59. I am a dog person and love pitbulls.

I have owned two of them as well as two Rottweilers. Both breeds are excellent pets.

[Major Hogwash]

74. Do you like wiener dogs?

I don't know which is worse!!

[pintobean]

77. I like all dogs

unless they're mean. Cats too.

[Glassunion]

24. All of our buddies are indoors.

Loki got out once. Took me an hour of making mew noises to get him to come back. In my robe and slippers no less. His prior owner let him out and he has an outdoor mentality. He tries to conquer every living creature outside.

Now he tends to try and conquer the sink in the kitchen.

Grandma has a farm and there are quite a few cats. They are all outdoor cats, all of them strays. They really don't have any natural predators around so they can multiply like crazy. So every so often the local shelter traps them gives them some shots and makes sure they are spayed or neutered. They keep the mice, squirrels, and groundhogs away.

[Blue_In_AK]

27. I've always kept my cats indoors pretty much,

but my last cat used to like to lay in the sun on the front porch. She never went anywhere.

[Man from Pickens]

29. I tried just this with my cat

indoor-only for over 8 years

let her out a bit when I moved out to the country

she loved it and was really responsible too, never went out of earshot, always came when called

she's back indoors-only now that I'm in the suburbs again, but she would leap at the chance to go outside again if she could

I just didn't feel right about never giving her the chance to experience the outdoors, I feel much better after having done so. YOLNT

[KamaAina]

31. The American Coyote Society?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026435724

[Major Nikon]

95. I live in a residential neighborhood and coyotes come for the cats

Sometimes after I hear them howling I will see lost cat signs on the lightposts. I feel sad for the cats. Owners should keep them inside if they really care about them.

[KamaAina]

101. Or Animal Control should try to chase away the coyotes

Just sayin'.

[XemaSab]

102. Um, wut?

[KamaAina]

116. If they're preying on pets, they're a nuisance!

[XemaSab]

123. So you propose killing a native species

to protect a destructive invasive species?

[KamaAina]

138. Who said anything about killing?

Trap and release into better habitat farther from people (and cats).

[XemaSab]

163. Where do you propose to release them

where there aren't feral cats?

Also, you do realize that there are probably other coyotes there and they will fight to the death, right?

[KamaAina]

170. If they must behave like ALF,

better ferals than pets.

[Major Nikon]

115. One of my neighbors complained the city won't do anything about them

I don't blame the city. Coyotes are a native species here. House cats aren't.

I don't see that doing any good anyway. So long as there's a fresh supply of cats, the coyotes will just come back. The solution to the problem is to keep the cats indoors.

[pipoman]

135. Back in the 1980's I became friends with an old Sac and Fox

Medicine man. He told me that I could either shoot coyotes that get too close to my house and have to shoot them constantly or, if I wanted to keep them away and not have to shoot as many I should shoot a couple, cut their body cavity open, place them on my property line, and pee on the carcass...this will keep them away for months. I've done this and now only have to shoot 3 or 4 per year that get too close to the house...they are all around my farmstead but don't run through here like they did before employing this technique....

[ileus]

33. My old beloved kitty loved going outside.

Until he didn't come in one morning. I found his head and a pile of hair in the field next door.

My new kitties don't go outside at night...period. One won't even venture outside in the day, the other will spend most of the day outside.

My neighbors fed 4 cats to the coyotes before they learned to keep their kitties in at night.

Most cats love being outside, but unless you're able to kill off all the coyotes and confirm they're gone I highly recommend bringing them in at night.

Smart cats learn to deal with traffic pretty quick so I don't really consider that an issue unless you live near a major traffic road.



If they were really designed to live indoors they'd have thumbs and know how to build homes.

[Chemisse]

82. I've always kept my cats indoors at night too.

That's the most dangerous time, when the coyotes, fisher cats and fox are on the prowl.

[riderinthestorm]

98. All of my barn kitties are in overnight. I purposefully do this

I'm sure it's why they live so long.

[mnhtnbb]

34. The Goathouse Refuge here in NC makes adoptions for indoor, outdoor, or indoor/outdoor

kitties.

See the application (scroll towards bottom).

http://www.goathouserefuge.org/adoption-application/


And they have a fenced area for their residents to go outside on a daily basis.

I've been there to look at all their kitties.

I have always said the reason our kitty boys survived our house fire was that we always put them out at night.
Yes, they came back to the burned down house 1 and 2 days later. Mouse lived to be 14, dying from cancer,
and his brother lived to be 17 before getting cancer himself. After Mouse died, though, we never made Simba
go out at night by himself. He just wanted to be with us.

[Inkfreak]

35. I dunno, but it wouldn't matter one way or another.

Mr. Butters will NOT be told where he can go. Found on the streets as a 2ish year old stray, this dude still loves the outdoors 7 years later. Never kills birds. But mice & shrews fear him.



Not so much in the winters these days. I think his old bones hate the cold.

[sabrina 1]

40. Aw, he is beautiful!

[Inkfreak]

45. Thanks! He brings a lot of joy to our house.

Our favorite rescue...but don't tell the other one.

[Cleita]

54. Orange tabbies are the best kitties.

Two have owned me in my lifetime. Both were sweet in disposition, but the smartest kitties of all.

[Inkfreak]

64. Couldn't agree more!

If he's outside, he always meets up when we pull in the driveway. It makes our day, sometimes he even sprints across the field to meet us.

[Divernan]

128. Fun Fact: Ginger/orange cats are usually toms.

I was adopted by a Ginger Tom about a year ago. My back yard is 300 feet deep in woods and borders a park, so all my cats (2 or 3 at any given time) are rescue cats. My other cat is a calico female who came into my yard when she was a very thin and tiny 3 months old (vet's best guess as to age). In checking out their colors, I learned that most gingers are male and most calicos female:

Most ginger (orange) tabby cats are male, in fact the ratio of males to females is around 3:1. All cats have 19 pairs of chromosomes, and all 19 pairs are found in each and every cell in the cats body. In cats, just like in people, it is these chromosomes that carry genes that are passed along from the cats parents.

Just like people, cats have a pair of sex chromosomes, which make them male or female, and these chromosomes also play a significant role in determining the cats color. In cats, females have xx and males are xy (the ‘y’ is the male determining factor). Each parent donates 1 chromosome, since the females are xx, they can only send an x, if the father sends an x, congratulations it’s a girl, if he sends the y, you guessed it, it’s a boy.

The ginger color is located in the x chromosome, and dominates all other colors (except white, since white is not a color, but rather an absence of color, white can override orange). Since the boys only have one x chromosome, they either are orange, or they are not orange (hmmm… you don’t say, they either are or they aren’t). In females, two x’s conflict, and each cell randomly ignores one of them. So with one out of the way in each cell, some cells have the orange x on, and others will turn it off, which produces Calico fur (orange, black/brown/etc).

So for a female to be all orange, BOTH x’s need to be ginger genes.

Wait a minute, does that mean there is no such thing as a male Calico? No, there could be a male Calico, but they are very rare, since the male would need to have a mutation that causes a 2nd x in some cells, or an ‘xxy’ set-up. That means the male Calico would be sterile.

http://www.askipedia.com/are-ginger-tabby-cats-usually-male-and-is-it-true-they-are-always-very-affectionate/

My cats are indoor/enclosed outdoor spaces cats. I have a deck off my bedroom which is second story,and looks out over the aforementioned 300 feet of woods. I'm at the top of a 45 degree angled lot - so there is a great vista. There are four bird feeders in view in the back yard, so the activity around those also keeps my cats entertained. Outside the side kitchen door I have an enclosed brick terrace with 7 foot high fencing around it. Both areas are very popular for long catnaps in the sun, or under the shade of an umbrella.

My daughter lives in the country and has rescued many cats there (she currently has 3 adults and 2 rambunctious and hilarious kittens). She found a kind of lightweight wire netting, supported by metal stanchions. If one of the cats attempts to climb over it, the netting curves inward. It is about 8 feet high, and nearly invisible so doesn't mar the view. She enclosed about half an acre of her one acre lot. Within the fenced in area there are trees to climb, bushes to sleep under, low stone walls to nap on, and mice, voles and chipmunks to hunt. She also has a lot of berry patches, an asparagus bed and raised 4x4 garden vegetable plots for playing hide-and-pounce. There's a cat door from the house into the fenced area, so even when she's at work, they can come and go as their desires and the weather dictate. I call it Cat Heaven.

[Cleita]

142. One of mine was a tom and the other a girl.

Fun anecdote about a male calico. A co-worker had a calico tom. She never had to have him neutered because he didn't do all the naughty things male cats do, like spray, get into fights and disappear for weeks at a time looking for mates. As a matter of fact he was the perfect house cat, very clean and fastidious. She always joked that he was probably gay.

[Divernan]

154. Actually . . . .

The link which I quoted included a comment that male calicos were sterile and tended to act "girly". I didn't include that part of the description in fear of starting a flame war!

[Cleita]

157. I almost didn't mention either for that reason, but we

are talking about cats not people.

[BlueCaliDem]

179. Wow! A male Calico. That's very rare. Calicos are always female but now I read there ARE male Calico

cats.

Our Yenyen is a ginger, an orange tabby. Gentle as can be and the sweetest, most affectionate tom any servant would ever want.

[CreekDog]

104. He looks awesome

I love orange cats in particular.

I'm not posting this to get everyone to bring in their outdoor cats. I think it would be better for them and the environment if they did become indoor cats, but I know it's not quite that simple --I get that.

The point was to talk about what the people who know A TON about our cats, and A TON about our environment and that they are ALL in agreement that your next cat should be raised to be an indoor cat.

[Inkfreak]

178. I would agree with you.

And unless we rescued another cat under the exact same circumstances, we'd never allow ours outdoors. We lived through the pain of a wonderful cat escaping and being run over right in front of us. It was devastating. So yes, let's keep them indoors and safe.

[JEB]

114. Interesting that some cats

have a preference for certain types of prey. We had one cat in our neighborhood that actually hunted and killed moles. He never ate them. Some are birders and pursue protected native songbirds.

[R B Garr]

174. Mr. Butters is one Boss kitty!

You must abide. Loved your description of him.

[sabrina 1]

38. Our animals, dog and cats, go in and out whenever they please, through the doggie door.

Always did as long as I remember and all lived long, healthy lives.

Across the street from us now, there are Barn cats. They adjust to the temperatures they live in, would probably die of suffocation if we brought them inside.

However this was such a bad winter, I wondered if they could survive it, sometimes -17. We fed them all winter, made sure to give them fresh water every day, they live in the barn which was exceptionally cold this winter. All survived beautifully, one pregnant mom appears to have delivered her babies, she was gone for a few days, now she's back and she looks great.

We have always fed feral cats if we know about them. But they are amazingly resilient so long as they are not used to living with humans.

And yes, there are coyotes and other predators, but the Barn cats seem to know how to avoid them.

If a cat has never been outside, it has lost it's survival instincts for the most part and probably would not survive as the Barn cats have.

[CreekDog]

44. yes, but who should i listen to?

you or scientists and other experts on, not only cats, but various environmental issues?

[brooklynite]

50. I htink the point is that people who let their cats out aren't telling you anything...

...make the decision on your own.

[sabrina 1]

51. You should listen to whoever you want to listen to. I was just over at the barn again

today to feed them. They are all beautiful, healthy and happy. They survived an unusually brutal winter, probably would not have had we not made sure to feed them and especially to bring them water every day as the water froze in a couple of hours.

Our indoor cats, all rescues, go out when they feel like it. Two were pretty feral until recently, they have not gone out for months, so if they want to be indoor cats, they can. Their choice.

So, what do these scientists suggest we do with the millions of Barn and Feral cats, bring them all inside? That would probably mean at least 20 cats, or more, in every home.

[CreekDog]

53. I should listen to whomever I want to listen to?

Shouldn't I listen to people who are correct rather than people who are just saying what I want to hear?

[sabrina 1]

61. Yes, you should listen to those who are right. So, since you asked, listen to me.

And again, what do these scientists suggest be done with the millions of outdoor cats in existence everywhere.

[mike_c]

73. maybe you should investigate personally and reach your own conclusions....

Seriously, I don't rely on anyone to tell me what cats want. I live with a bunch of cats. I have a pet door. Those who want to stay inside do so-- a couple rarely ever go out and never leave the front yard when they do, as far as I can tell. Those who like to spend time outdoors do so. I don't ask anyone whether they're better off indoors or out. I leave that decision to the cats. They seem like the best experts to consult on what cats want and need, don't you think?

BTW, in nearly 20 years in my rural northern california neighborhood, I have never lost a pet to predators or to traffic. The greatest danger to my cats over the years has likely been neighborhood dogs off leash, but no losses or injuries at all. And I've cared for LOTS of cats in that time.

[840high]

109. Listen to yourself.

[brooklynite]

46. Why should I?

My wife and I have made this judgement on our own.

Our cats love to go out, and we've provided a cat door for when the staff aren't available. The entire yards in fenced in (doesn't keep the cats in but keeps the dogs out) and there are no spaces between buildings to access the street.

My back yard is already a non-natural environment; and my cats have, in my opinion, been able to keep themselves separated from other cats, dogs and large predators.

[CreekDog]

48. The reason you won't is because you can't.

[brooklynite]

49. The reason I won't is because I don't need to...

[CreekDog]

52. the thread isn't to talk about your pet care, it's to talk about recommendations based on:

...cat welfare, wildlife protection, and environmental considerations.

obviously you think the only issue is how you care for your pets. the point isn't to get you bring your animals inside.

it's to understand what experts are saying about what the impacts of cats on the environment as well as the impact of being outside on a cat's health.

and in the future, to consider that knowledge when deciding whether to raise a cat to be an indoor or outdoor cat.

but if you just want to do what you want and not think that people who know quite a bit about cat's and the environment than you do, then of course you won't want to discuss what they say.

[foo_bar]

97. "a cat door for when the staff aren't available"

I know, right? But, yeah, it's hard to imagine Brooklyn's delicate ecosystem withstanding anything smaller than a meatloaf-sized rat.

[tabasco]

47. Fuckinay!

We needed a good flame fest!

[ZombieHorde]

57. Outdoor house cats should be rounded up as an environmental menace.

I understand many people scoff at the idea of protecting the environment, but we need to move ahead without them.

[tammywammy]

70. I have three indoor pet cats.

But someone down the street moved out and left their 5 cats behind. This was 5.5 years ago. They ended up in my yard (they know which house is cat friendly). I made sure they were spayed & neutered, but I couldn't bring them in. After a couple of years only 2 were left.

Then about 6 months ago, another neighbor moved out and left their cat behind....along with her 7 kittens! They'd had this cat for a couple years at least! No wonder all these kittens kept showing up. I took her and got her fixed, but I think she still hangs around her old house. I do see her occasionally. I either got the kitties homes and a rescue took the rest.

Horrible pet owners. I currently have 4 strays on the deck I feed. They're fixed, but there's no way to bring them in. Hopefully since I got that girl fixed there won't be so many new kittens.

My cats love the indoors. Once my female got out and was on the deck all day while I was at work. I don't think she left the deck at all. She's had little interest in outdoors since. My avatar pic cat, I can leave the door open all day and he won't go out. He's a scaredy cat.

[CreekDog]

71. Yes, my point was for people to raise any new cats they acquire to be indoor cats

I understand that cats show up and you don't want them to starve, but that doesn't mean you can take them all inside your house.

I get that, of course.

And I even get that cats that have long had access to the outdoors are not going to be easily trained otherwise --though the experts actually say that such cats should also be brought inside, ultimately.

But if people would make sure that in the future that any cats they acquire are spayed or neutered AND kept inside, that would be better for these new cats and the environment as well.

That's the point.

I know you're trying to be a good owner and it's frustrating to see other cats neglected or mistreated by their owners.

[tammywammy]

79. I agree, pets indoors.

My cats enjoy their plush cushy lifestyle inside - water fountain, heated beds, lots of delicious food. They'd never make it being an outside cat.

My strays do have a nice shelter and plenty of food & water.

[Rex]

160. What about roaming semi-feral dog packs? Those too right?

What about feral cats? Seems kind of harsh for you to just single out one instance.

[ZombieHorde]

164. Any introduced species, other than humans, that is proven to be harmful to the enviroment

should be removed. This is just common sense.

[flvegan]

166. LOL!

Thanks for going vegan, friend.

Laughable.

[BlueJazz]

60. I don't like to see cats outside. Especially cats that have dyed.

Leave the poor things their natural color.

[Redford]

94. That was funny

Thanks for the chuckle!

[BlueJazz]

99. Thank you.

[Surya Gayatri]

127. Couldn't agree more...what an affront to the proud feline psyche!

[one_voice]

63. My cat does his...

damnedest to get outside all the time. His favorite time is when I'm letting the dog in or out. It drives me bonkers. He showed up in my drive way nearly frozen four years ago and I kept him. He wasn't just a kitten.

He loves going outside. I don't let him out, but he does get by me at times. He always shows up again.....

[Hekate]

68. The Organization of Homeowners that Thinks Kitties Should Have Access to Nature, that's who

In memory of great big handsome Othello, who kept our property free from rats and mice for over 15 years.

He was a cuddly cat, allowed in the house at all times. The first 7 years of his life he was allowed to stay outdoors at night, roaming the bushes, patrolling the rooftop, bringing things too fierce to mention to our doorstep. He had access to a pet door into the garage. When I thought he might be slowing down just a little, I started keeping him in the garage overnight, which at first he hated with a passion. But he did live to a very ripe old age, and died of natural causes that had nothing to do with predators bigger than he.

[Feron]

86. It sounds great until..

a male cat starts spraying everything around your house.

And then there are the fights, the diseases, and the fact that cats are often a snack and/or toy for other animals.

I'm glad that your cat wasn't preyed upon, but two of mine were. I've also watched dogs kill cats for fun.

Another one of my cats was roadkill.

There are also sick fucks that like to harm animals. One of my cats was shot with a BB gun which caused a nasty wound. We were lucky in that it wasn't anything worse.

I bring nature to my cats. I grow cat grass that I occasionally put outside for a few days to acquire new smells. I let them sniff anything that has been outside like shoes.

I also bring in harmless bugs for them to hunt and snack on. I play with them. In other words, I try to give them an enriched environment.

Cats are awesome animals, but they aren't in any way like people. And people shouldn't project their desires on them.

[Marrah_G]

168. I live in the city now and there are tons of ferals/strays

I feel badly for them, but I can also imagine that the mouse and rat population would be very, very bad around here without them.

[Pathwalker]

69. Cats may make this decision for you. Little buggers

have minds of their own, and may decide for themselves. Mine did, and we've got the scars to prove it. Two are rescue cats, who, we were promised, were indoor cats. The third, and oldest, showed up at our back door on Christmas day, during a terrible snow storm. The oldest, Stormy, is a hellion, caught up on all his shots, but demands to be let outside, and will claw or bite if you say no. All cats spent most of the winter inside due to the cold - and have suffered as a result.
Stormy went into a decline, until I "had a long talk with him", explaining that winter was dying and he could go out the next day, but only if he started eating again. He ate, and demanded to be let out the next day. He was out for 10 minutes.
Bo, one of the rescue cats, is losing his hair - the vet says it's nothing physical, he just wants outside. Yes, we've had expensive tests done, to be sure. Bleu, the other rescue cat, only goes out to "do his business" and wants back inside.
I tried to keep them inside, but I couldn't afford to replace anymore of the destroyed curtains and furniture. We love them dearly, but we're not willing to have any more scars as a result of forcing them to stay inside.

[HuckleB]

85. +1

Yep. Our cat escaped from a family who wanted to turn her into an indoor only cat. She refused, and ended up adopting us.

[shanti]

75. my two are indoor only

the boy is always trying to escape, and the girl is timid and never wants to go out. after the boy got sick a few years ago and then the girl followed suit to the tune of $800 in vet bills, i put a stop to the outdoor forays. they haven't been sick since then. they do love to look out the window at the 3 neighborhood cats, numerous birds, squirrels, and lizards that make the rounds. yesterday, my boy caught a baby lizard that had entered the house from under the door. he was so happy, until i caught the lizard and released it outside.

[foo_bar]

78. you know who else wants to keep cats indoors? dogs.

Isn't that right... CreekDog?

[lumberjack_jeff]

83. The "Eff the Starlings Benevolent League". n/t

Last edited Wed Apr 1, 2015, 01:53 PM - Edit history (1)

[CreekDog]

105. I promise to keep our agreement on something a secret

[B Calm]

100. My cat likes being indoors in the winter and outside the rest of the year.

[JEB]

110. It is against the law to kill songbirds,

but even well fed cats kill them for fun. Cats make great pets but in some ways they are another invasive species.

[Aerows]

112. Mine likes to go outside

and her time outside is getting briefer and briefer.

I can't deny her altogether, and she absolutely knows how to defend herself. She was a starving feral when I found her. She hunted to *survive*. Now she's just the fat thing that insists on sleeping in the middle of the bed.

[840high]

113. All of mine are strays - they go

in and out. Always in at night.

[yuiyoshida]

117. I have heard of a Woman in Los Angeles...

She has had to buy a new cat for the past three years, because she refuses to keep kitty inside away from the Coyotes. Rather than protecting her pet from the dangers of being eaten as coyote food, she says she just can't have the cat stay inside her house over night because she is bothered by its nocturnal tendencies and it keeps her awake. Asked why she bothers to even have a cat, when she offers them up as coyote food, she thinks they are cute and nice to have around, but she won't have them in her house.

My friend works for Cat Rescue in Los Angeles. She has tried to talk her out of having a pet because each and every time they have become Coyote food, she won't listen, as her comfort level is what this is all about.

[LeftishBrit]

120. The RSPCA says that you can do either, BUT explicitly recommends against keeping a cat indoors if it

has already become accustomed to moving freely outdoors (except for health reasons).

http://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/pets/cats

As discussed in the pamphlet on 'How to take care of your cat' included under the above link.

Of course, this is in the UK, and it's possible that some of the environmental dangers are different in the USA.

[muriel_volestrangler]

126. And the Cats Protection League says roughly the same

Ideally all cats would be allowed access to outdoors to express their natural behaviour and in the UK, the majority of people let their go cats outside. However, in built-up areas, there can be a large number of cats, each with a dwindling territory size and many people are choosing to keep their cats inside. In addition, it is recommended that some cats are kept indoors for their own benefit. Cats have a natural tendency to explore so allowing them access to the outside world gives them mental stimulation and reduces stress. If they are kept solely indoors, some additional considerations for their home are recommended.
...
Overall, the decision on whether to keep the cat inside or allow access outdoors should be assessed on the cat’s personality, health, previous experience, the home and local outside environment and owner’s preferences. Cats kept solely indoors should be provided with ways to exhibit their natural behaviour to ensure their welfare, reduce dependency on owners and avoid undesirable behavioural issues.

http://www.cats.org.uk/uploads/documents/cat-care-leaflets-2013/EG12_Indoor_and_outdoor_cats.pdf

[NutmegYankee]

125. My cat, a kitten of stray cats, is solely kept indoors.

Given the brutal reality for strays, she'll most likely outlive her entire extended family. Her immediate family was killed by a stray dog and my friend was able to rescue her just in time at 6 weeks.

[ProfessorGAC]

131. Could Not Disagree More (nt)

[Android3.14]

137. Well, at least we found the limits to which you disagree

What do you find disagreeable?

[ProfessorGAC]

139. Did You Bother To Read Your Own Post?

It's hyperbolic nonsense. My cats are indoor. They're happy, playful, responsive, and do not behave as deprived or caged. They have room to room and cushy beds and couches and sunny windows.

But, any pet owner who keeps their pets indoors is a hearltess jailer.

Yeah, right.

[Android3.14]

140. Well, let's look at my post again

"The main reason people keep cats indoors against their will ..."

Your cats must be happy staying indoors and never want to leave. So we probably have no conflict.

Even if your confinement of the animals is against their will, then I figure you must live in an urban setting, because no ethical cat owner would confine their cat if he or she lived out in the country.

I certainly hope you didn't declaw you cats.

[Bonx]

153. RE: "no ethical cat owner would confine their cat if he or she lived out in the country. "

Well, unless they 1) like the cat and 2) don't want to feed the coyotes.

[bettyellen]

133. Freedom = injury and early death,so no thanks

[LWolf]

130. My cat

is an indoor cat, not for the birds' sake, but for hers. The local coyotes, owls, hawks, and eagles will take cats.

She does get to spend time outside in a harness, on a long line. She would prefer not to drag the line behind her.

When I had outdoor cats, they took birds sometimes. Not often; they were much more successful with rodents, which was a service to the world, imo.

[Puglover]

132. Our back yard in the states is enclosed by a very tall privacy fence.

My youngest kitty is a timid little thing. And he is out all day every day prowling in the hosta. He loves it.

My older boy Peter is street smart and spends all day in the summer sitting on the front porch watching the world go by. Happily as he has aged he wanders less and less.


Peter also comes with us when we walk the dog in the evening. He gets pissed if we don't invite him. The neighbors love it. Seriously when he crosses the street he looks both ways.

We are moving to Ecuador permanently in Oct. It will be interesting to see how they adapt.

[dumbcat]

134. Why?

[Rex]

150. I've never met a cat that did not pine for the fields.

Or better yet, large field rats.

[CreekDog]

155. I never met a Beagle that didn't either

doesn't mean it's a good idea to let one room free in the neighborhood.

[Rex]

156. Cats and dogs are not the same at all. Cats rely on predatory instinct and dogs rely on belly rubs.

Unless you can teach a cat to fetch a ball and bring it back or roll over, cats just don't view us as equals. Best let cats have their way. For our own good.

[CreekDog]

158. and the topic of the thread is not why cats and dogs are different

thanks!

[Rex]

159. Then why did you bring up a dog in your last reply?

Rigggght.

[flvegan]

165. Why?

Environmental organizations usually care very little about animals. It's part of the comedy we call Greenpeace and the Sierra Club. They wouldn't know Jack Shit about anything, and many of their followers are idiots (who claim to care about animals, vapidly making points on the internet, while munching McNuggets). CHICKENS ARE BIRDS...WHAT???? Fuckwits.

However, I don't see how any of your demands suits anything, "major" being subjective. It's a lovely wolf-whistle, though.

Those of us that believe in TNR would rather not execute a bunch of cats as an emotional response. It's not "keeping cats outdoors" but feeding animals. Emotional response. That's funny.

For the record, I have two cats that come around to eat. I don't "keep them outdoors" as much as I feed them, and I hope they don't kill other critters. But then, I could probably hope the same about my neighbors, or my friends, or other DUers that they don't kill other critters. You know, my fellow vegans. I look forward to you being one.

Do NOT use the word hypocrite. <--- Note to self.

[CreekDog]

167. the environmental organizations know a lot about the environment, that's the point

no, they don't know the most about the welfare of pets, but they do know a lot about the issues with non native animals in the local environment and the potential for harm.

that's why i ask. but i don't just ask which environmental organizations, but also which pet welfare organizations.

i'm asking people to think about both.

and neither set of groups generally recommends that cats be kept outdoors. the enviros don't recommend it for the damage the pets can cause and the pet welfare orgs don't recommend it for the dangers to the pet.

that's all. it's a discussion, those are the things that i wanted to talk about.

[muriel_volestrangler]

169. So, as well as the RSPCA for pet welfare, you can have the RSPB for environmental

http://www.rspb.org.uk/makeahomeforwildlife/advice/gardening/unwantedvisitors/cats/catowners.aspx

They do suggest keeping them indoors at certain times of day, but they also suggest a bell on the collar.

So, now you do have a major environmental, and a major animal welfare, organisation that each say it's OK to allow cats outdoors. That's what you needed, wasn't it?

[XemaSab]

173. Anything from the western hemisphere?

[muriel_volestrangler]

180. Do cats behave differently west of an arbitrary meridian?

I can tell you the RSPB's head office is west of the Greenwich meridian, if that's what concerns you.

[XemaSab]

185. The birds do

n/t

[XemaSab]

172. I've never seen a humane argument made about the animals that die for the cat food

I saw a video yesterday where one woman buys 1,500 cans of cat food a month.

Even if the cats aren't killing birds, there's some carnage behind what they're eating.

[brooklynite]

186. What is your alternative approach to feeding a cat?

[XemaSab]

187. My alternative approach

is that killing one cat is worth not killing a hundred chickens, fish, turkeys a year.