What's up with this new interpretation of Christianity

[malaise]

I'm an atheist but I grew up with folks who took the following statement very seriously

'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

How can state governments get together with religious extremists and pass laws that discriminate against fellow citizens. I hope this reaches the Supreme Court. Keep religion out of politics.

[F4lconF16]

1. Unfortunately I don't think this is a new thing.

It's been around for quite a while, but we're finally seeing the results of the Republican southern strategy really kick in as people who grew up under it now actually believe in it--it's not a strategy for them. There was a good article on it here on DU a while back, I forget where it was though.

[Warpy]

2. Christianity has always had its share of hateful jackasses

The difference now is that their hateful jackass preachers have access to TV.

[still_one]

3. Hmmm, third way "Christians"

[Dirty Socialist]

70. Wrong

Moderate Democrats are against the Indiana Hate Law.

[still_one]

83. I was directing the comment Regarding religion not Democrats, and being sarcastic.

[randr]

4. They have a name--Heretics

[PatrickforO]

23. Or perhaps the new Pharisees

[zeemike]

29. That is it exactly.

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. Religion is now more like "being republican"

If Republicans can rationalize being an asshole as somehow pious, it cements their base voters.

It has been long known that conservatism is based on low effort thought. This proves that it is based on low effort morality too.

[hifiguy]

6. This atheist thinks there is one way to get something useful out of Xtianity.

Read and practice the teachings of The Sermon On The Mount. Throw the rest away. My $.02

[bvar22]

17. Born and raised Catholic,

...attended catholic schools and Jesuit High School.


The Jesuit theology teacher I had said the same.
Jesus came to give us a new law.
Throw away the Old Testament.
everything you need to know to be a good Christian is in the Sermon on the Mount.

This teacher eventually quit the order,
and worked with the poor in New Orleans.

[Dragonfli]

59. I was raised the same way and my Jesuit teachers said similar things

I am no longer Catholic, but the sermon on the mount stuck with me, it is an excellent guide for those that care about others.

I don't get these modern Christians however, they appear to be more about hate and money than anything else, I find it rather confusing having been taught all the same words spoken by the same Christ. Christ himself would not recognize his teachings as expressed today.

Maybe they no longer teach what he taught and teach only Leviticus now or something? Not sure what the malfunction is.

[phil89]

41. Or better yet,

read real philosophy. A lot of what was in the sermon on the mount was ridiculous or outright harmful advice.

[Thinkingabout]

7. This may not sound good but the ones who is voting these days are given instructions on

Who to vote for, this minority is electing the ones sponsoring these bills and shoving this crap down our throats. We can continue to sit at home and get what they want us to have or we can vote this type of candidate out of office and get these laws repealed. I will say this also, Jesus taught us to love everybody, I follow this.

We can get this changed, this past week has shown what can happen when we rise to the occasion, lets get with the program and get the discrimination out of the US.

[HereSince1628]

8. Religion justifies its dominant culture, nuf said there.

[SamKnause]

9. Seven Mountains Dominionism

[Faux pas]

10. I went from a recovering catholic

to an agnostic (for about 30 yrs) to a full blown atheist with the continuing bastardization of 'christianity'. I've never heard of any wars/crusades caused/started by atheists. Just sayin'.

[former9thward]

14. Hitler was an atheist.

Goebbels wrote in 1941 that Hitler "hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

And his ally at the beginning of WW II, the Soviet Union, was led by Stalin, an atheist, and ruled by the Communist Party, an atheist party. Mao was an atheist who killed scores of millions in China and intervened in the Korean War which was started by an atheist government.

[liberal_at_heart]

15. religion or non religion are just guises. Wars are always fought for money and power.

[former9thward]

16. I tend to agree.

Except I would say resources in addition to money and power.

[hifiguy]

18. So was Stalin.

And the most notable thing about Stalinism and Nazism is that they were attempts to replace a religious dogma with a secular dogma that would fill the same social and psychic space.

Interestingly, the RCC never excommunicated Hitler. Fascinating, that.

[former9thward]

22. The RCC may have been trying to save priests in Germany and occupied Europe.

They may have thought if he was excommunicated they would have been killed. Just a guess, I have no idea.

[progressoid]

81. So you think the RCC thought that saving a couple hundred priests was more important than

denouncing the most vile wicked, odious, wicked, evil, atrocious, monstrous, abominable, detestable, contemptible, reprehensible, despicable, egregious, horrific, abhorrent, loathsome, hideous person and regime on the planet.

Well, that certainly puts the RCC in a good light. Basically, "sorry everybody, but we gotta save our own asses".

[Curmudgeoness]

44. There is a lot of dispute on that one.

Wikipedia is not the best source, since anyone can put their own updates there and have their own spin on it.

But that isn't the point I wanted to make. This is no evidence that "atheism" was the cause of any wars. They did not wage wars in the name of atheism. That seemed to me to be the point of the post you responded to.

[former9thward]

45. Was WW I started over religion?

WW II? etc. People like to pick and choose on this topic. Find someone religious and then claim the war was started over religious. No I don't think every war was started for atheism just because an atheist was responsible. Currently there are some wars over religion in both Africa and Asia.

Yes, Wiki is not an absolute source. But I am not going to spend hours researching other sites just to post something. This stuff is not thesis work.

[beam me up scottie]

49. "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." - Adolph Hitler, 1941

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter"

"We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity … in fact our movement is Christian"

"I believe in Providence and I believe Providence to be just. Therefore I believe that Providence always rewards the strong, the industrious, and the upright"

"I believe in God, and I am convinced that He will not desert 67 million Germans who have worked so hard to regain their rightful position in the world."

etc.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

[former9thward]

50. He had to do that politically.

Even Stalin had to forge national unity with the orthodox church once the Nazis attacked.

[beam me up scottie]

51. Prove he lied.

He claimed to be a christian repeatedly throughout his life.

Surely you're not using the No True Scotsman fallacy?

[former9thward]

53. No I am not going to do hours of research

to prove anything to you. Believe what you want. Atheists are the most insecure people I know.

[beam me up scottie]

54. You made the claim and now you refuse to back it up.

Atheists are the most insecure people I know.

[progressoid]

62. High Five!

Err...high flipper, you insecure atheist!

[beam me up scottie]

65. Narwhals Narwahls!

Swimming in the ocean, causing a commotion, cuz we are so awesome!

[progressoid]

82. Dammit. Ear Worm!

[Arugula Latte]

79. You got shot out of the water and you've got nothin' but that?

Atheists aren't the ones knocking on doors telling people their beliefs are wrong. Talk about insecure.

[former9thward]

87. The poster I replied to said atheists start no wars.

Want to back that up? Stalin, N.Korea, and Mao started no wars?

[beam me up scottie]

88. I'm the poster you replied to and you're full of shit.

In fact no poster said anything even remotely resembling what you're claiming.

[former9thward]

89. Let's see who is full of shit.

You are NOT the poster I was replying to. My first post in this thread was areply to poster #10 who said "I've never heard of any wars/crusades caused/started by atheists. Just sayin'."

Now we know who is....

[beam me up scottie]

90. Are you completely unable to follow the thread?

Arugula Latte responded to your post 53, which was a reply to my post 51



You got shot out of the water when you made the claim that Hitler was an atheist and couldn't back it up.

[former9thward]

91. Nice try to delflect

You said no poster said that atheists don't start wars. I did a cut and paste to show they did. Silence from you. You keep dodging the questions you don't want to answer. Since you believe Hitler was a Christian was WW II started to spread Christianity? No answer. Is the poster you defend correct? No atheists ever start a war?

[beam me up scottie]

92. "was WW II started to spread Christianity" is your straw man.

No one said that.

I took issue with your ridiculous claim that Hitler was an atheist and the fact that you insulted atheists when you couldn't back it up.

I disagree with that poster, wars are started by believers and atheists.

[DefenseLawyer]

95. Joseph Goebbels isn't exactly a reliable source

I'm just sayin'

[former9thward]

96. And the ones claiming he was a Christian are?

NOT.

[DefenseLawyer]

97. If I have to choose based on what Hitler himself said

About it and what his Nazi Minister of Propaganda said about it, I'd say I don't have any credible evidence to make a definitive statement one way or the other.

[former9thward]

101. This entire sub thread started when a poster claimed atheists don't start wars.

#10. I pointed out atheists do start wars and I named a few of them. So far posters have jumped on one of them, Hitler, disputing his being called an atheist. It is interesting posters have ignored all the rest I named. My point still stands even if you want to take out Hitler. Atheists have started wars.

[beam me up scottie]

98. Hitler claimed he was a christian.

He's the one you have to refute.

Trust me, you're not up to it, better minds have tried and failed.

But carry on.

[former9thward]

100. And I am told time and time again on here

that Obama "is not really religious, he is smarter than that" and "he just went to that Church for 20 years for political reasons". But everyone, who of course was not in Germany, never experienced Hitler, etc. are just positive that Hitler was a true blue Christian. My the double standards. I love it...

[beam me up scottie]

102. Do you own a factory?

Or have your straw men figured out how to reproduce on their own?

[former9thward]

103. Could not deal with the double standard.

I knew that.

[treestar]

85. that bit about rewarding the strong

is a little reminiscent of the right wing Christians in this country today.

But that ignores Jesus' teachings like the quote in the OP.

[beam me up scottie]

86. If christians had to follow all of Jesus' teachings

there would be no christians.

Conservative or liberal, they all pick and choose what parts of the "good" book they want to emphasize.

[cleanhippie]

61. Yeah, sure he was.

[beam me up scottie]

64. Pfft.

Obviously he was pretending to be a christian. No Real™ christian would hate Jews.

History has shown that christians are Christ-like pacifists, you know, like Torquemada and Pope Innocent III.

People who think war is okay obviously didn't read their bible (Numbers 31:2, Deuteronomy 20:16-17, 1 Samuel 15:18).

Jesus is all about peace and love (Revelation 19:11-21).

[former9thward]

66. Its called a photo op.

Ever heard of them? Was WW II started to spread Christianity?

[cleanhippie]

71. It's called a strawman.

Ever heard of them? They're used to avoid discussing the actual topic at hand.

[beam me up scottie]

73. And the myth of christian moral supremacy

Don't forget to vote!: http://www.democraticunderground.com/123038517

[former9thward]

76. You have certainly used them in your posts.

Was WW II started to spread the Christian faith?

[beam me up scottie]

84. You keep using that word...

Was WW II started to spread the Christian faith?

If you keep this up there'll be nothing left for the kids' Easter baskets...

[cleanhippie]

94. I mean, that could be a textbook definition of Strawman!

Cognitive Dissonance is both awesome and sad to see.

[beam me up scottie]

99. Fun with logical fallacies.

We could be at this all weekend.

Maybe s/he'll break the shovel and quit digging.

[cleanhippie]

93. It seems apparent that you've no idea what you're talking about.

Get back to me when you've got it figured out.

[SummerSnow]

11. It's the Rethug interpretation of Christianity.

I read this article from Think Progress - 'When ‘Religious Liberty’ Was Used To Justify Racism Instead Of Homophobia'. Very interesting. History is being repeated.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/02/26/3333161/religious-liberty-racist-anti-gay/

[malaise]

25. Thanks for this link

[malaise]

60. Thanks

[cleanhippie]

72. Unfortunately, that interpretaion is just as valid as any other.

[Tanuki]

12. You might find this interesting

This is a video of Princeton professor Kevin Kruse. I heard him interviewed on NPR regarding his book "One Nation Under God." Here is a review of the same book:

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/kevin-k-kruse/one-nation-under-god-corporate/

"This history is linked to industry’s reaction to reform, born during the Progressive Era, revived by the New Deal and perfected during the Cold War. The rise of the Social Gospel movement under Theodore Roosevelt redefined Christianity as faith concerned with the public good more than personal salvation. Business leaders saw new regulations as a threat to their bottom lines and looked for help redefining their roles. The author credits three men and their movements that helped build “Christian Libertarianism”: James Fifield’s Spiritual Motivation Group, Abraham Vereide’s prayer breakfast meetings and Billy Graham’s evangelical revivals. Major corporations, prominent industrialists and business lobbies supported these evangelists, who were promoting free enterprise. Using scare tactics and playing up the links between piety and patriotism, these groups sold faith and freedom. Who would be so foolish as to deny or fight either? As Kruse explains the connections, readers will begin to understand that the rallies to promote church participation and fights for school prayer were basically big business’s drive to eliminate the welfare state and labor unions. Throughout the book, the author exposes big money’s manipulation of the masses. The religious leaders no doubt had good intentions, but many of them became rich promoting the evils of unions and the dangers of socialism. Beginning with Dwight Eisenhower, Republican presidents continued the fight. Enter Madison Avenue and Hollywood, and the propaganda drive and the sacralization of the state were in full tilt.

In a book for readers from both parties, Kruse ably demonstrates how the simple ornamental mottoes “under God” and “In God We Trust,” as well as the fight to define America as Christian, were parts of a clever business plan."

[hifiguy]

19. Well, there's another book for my "must read" list.

Thanks! I get put on to more good books here at DU!

[malaise]

26. Thanks

[2naSalit]

27. I just saw that

somewhere earlier this week down in the city. I'll have to read that one, thanks for the review.

[zeemike]

47. That was great thanks.

What he did there was wright a definitive history of how the right co-opted religion as a tool of capitalism...
Must read book.

[liberal_at_heart]

13. The current trend is to ignore the New Testament, except for The Book of Revelation.

You must believe that Jesus died for your sins, was resurrected, and will return to reward the believers and punish the non believers, but other than that today's extreme Christians mainly focus on the Old Testament. Either believe and follow the rules or be severely punished.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

20. It is an oversimplification to say New Testament good, Old Testament bad,

not to mention insulting to Jewish DUers.

The Old Testament represents the spiritual evolution of the Jewish people from worshiping a strictly tribal God who goes around smiting people to worshiping a universal God who advocates honesty, fairness, and generosity. Read the prophets at the end of the Old Testament. Some of them sound almost socialist in their condemnation of the corrupt rich.

[liberal_at_heart]

58. I didn't say anything about Jewish people. I said the extremist Christians are using the Old

Testament to try and use rules and laws to control people. The teachings of Jesus about helping the poor and being compassionate and forgiving are ignored by the extremist Christians. The only part of the New Testament they seem to care about is the Resurrection and his Second Coming. I didn't say the Old Testament was all bad and the New Testament was all good. The Book of Revelation is just as condemning as parts of the Old Testament which is why the extremist Christians love it.

[BrotherIvan]

21. That's exactly right

It has turned into this.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. In the early years of DU, we had a poster who was the son of an Assemblies of God minister

This poster's father claimed that the denomination known as Assemblies of God had been infiltrated and was being steered by right-wing operatives. I wonder if this is true of other denominations, such as the Southern Baptists (which Jimmy Carter quit), and I'm almost positive that it is true of the free-lance fundamentalists, those self-proclaimed "ministers," untrained and unrecognized by any denomination, who somehow have the money to build huge churches overnight.

It is an open secret that right-wing groups are funding dissidents within liberal denominations, aimed at dividing them and reducing their influence on public life:

The IRD (Institute for Religion and Democracy) has established a network of so-called "renewal groups" within each mainstream church and a coordinating body called the Association for Church Renewal.[26] In a review of Leon Howell's United Methodism at Risk: A Wake-Up Call, Rev. Andrew Weaver concluded that the reason why "ultra-right-wing" foundations such as the Scaife, Bradley, and Olin foundations have funded the IRD since the 1980s is to counter mainstream Protestant churches that "have been and remain a powerful and influential voice for moderate and progressive social values in American society." Weaver observed, "If you control the activities and leadership of mainline Protestant churches you can do a lot to muffle the social conscience of the nation and stifle civil discourse." In his book, Howell advocates that the United Methodist Church, Presbyterian Church U.S.A., and Episcopal Church assume a "fighting mood" to defend themselves against the IRD's takeover campaigns through right-wing renewal groups.[27]

More at
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Institute_on_Religion_and_Democracy

[kwassa]

31. I was reading up on the Southern Baptists today ....

who are desperately trying to change their image to attract minorities and overcome their racist past ....

but the article noted that the denomination was formed over the issue of slavery in 1845.

here is what wiki says:

Slavery in the 19th century became the most critical moral issue dividing Baptists in the United States. Struggling to gain a foothold in the South, after the American Revolution, the next generation of Baptist preachers accommodated themselves to the leadership of southern society. Rather than challenging the gentry on slavery and urging manumission (as did the Quakers and Methodists), they began to interpret the Bible as supporting the practice of slavery and encouraged good paternalistic practices by slaveholders. They preached to slaves to accept their places and obey their masters. In the two decades after the Revolution during the Second Great Awakening, Baptist preachers abandoned their pleas that slaves be manumitted.[19]
....................................................................................................

Baptists in southern churches preferred a more centralized organization of congregations composed of churches patterned after their associations, with a variety of ministries brought under the direction of one denominational organization.[27] The increasing tensions and the discontent of Baptists from the South regarding national criticism of slavery and issues over missions led to their withdrawal from the national Baptist organizations.[10]

The southern Baptists met at the First Baptist Church of Augusta in May 1845.[28] At this meeting, they formed a new convention, naming it the Southern Baptist Convention. They elected William Bullein Johnson (1782–1862) as the new convention's first president. He had served as president of the Triennial Convention in 1841.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist_Convention

[MisterP]

38. the Baptists had an outright COUP, around the same time as America's plague of "think tanks" arose

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptist_Convention_conservative_resurgence

even the pharmacists got a Gleichschaltung in the late 70s--"if jungle dwellers had any medical knowledge, we would've accepted it as science"

[LeftyMom]

74. The Assemblies are weird. They were started to be integrated and ordain women

at a time when both notions were radical. Their politics drifted rightward from there but still vary widely from church to church because their governing body is rather hands off. Personally I think a lot of this drift can be explained by Pentecostalism's shift from an urban phenomenon to a rural one in the mid twentieth century to the exurbs from the 80's to present.

[Dont call me Shirley]

106. I was married to the child of a SoBap minister...

That entire family was cray-cray!

[world wide wally]

28. Isn't there a Commandment that says something like...

"Thou shalt not bullshit"?

[Dont call me Shirley]

37. #9. You shall not bear false witness (tell a lie) against your neighbor.

Bullshit = Lie

[world wide wally]

40. I knew it!

[valerief]

30. Organized religion was organized to steal from the non-rich. Usually not money but

labor. But increasingly in the U.S. it's money, since they offshore the labor.

[malaise]

32. It's money everywhere

the prosperity gospel they call it.

[valerief]

35. Ha! How blatant!!! nt

[ErikJ]

33. Leaders have been using religion to stay in control for 1000's of years.

Seems were' slowly slipping back into the Dark Ages. We need another 'Enlightenment"

[Dont call me Shirley]

34. Religions are businesses and therefore members of Corporate America

Tax churches now!

[malaise]

36. +1,000 n/t

[hifiguy]

67. Eeyup.

"TAX the CHURCHES. TAX the BUSINESSES OWNED by the CHURCHES." - Frank Zappa

[ybbor]

39. Remember, most of these people think Jesus was white

They have no clue. They believe Jesus was white and was pro-business. They believe that being wealthy is a sign of being blessed, and the poor are that way as a type of punishment.

These "Christians" are all jacked up.

[malaise]

42. True their gawd cursed us and we got black skin

It's so convenient to come up with a reason for everything you hate

[Tanuki]

48. Fox News told them that Jesus was "a white man"!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/12/12/reza-aslan-on-jesuss-skin-color-megyn-kelly-is-right-her-christ-is-white/

[Diclotican]

43. malaise

malaise

I do not know - to be honest I'm at a loss when people who claim to be christian - can do heinous things - and then go to church on sunday - as they have clean souls....

This type of "christianity" exist all over the world - but they are small compared to what you have in the US - and therefore less loud for the most part.. And also they often is ridiculed before they can do to much damage in public life...


Religion have nothing to do with politics - I for one think LAW need to be as secular as human possible - and religion be a private case between each one of us - and whatever deity we tend to worship.. I'm a Church going fellow - if not regular, so at least semi-regular - but I still think laws should be secular - and that religions should be a private matter - not something you could push onto others because you can - or that you can use to discriminate others - that be because of religion, sexual orientation - your skin color and whatever other type of difference you might have from the main group of your country... it is WRONG - period, just wrong....

And the law in Indiana who gives a free pass to every bigots who claim to be christian - is a STUPID LAW - pure and simple - and stupid laws tend to not exist to long....

Diclotican

[malaise]

46. Yes

and the stupid law needs to be challenged.
These Fundie laws cannot stand.

[awoke_in_2003]

52. They're old testament christians. nt

[ruffburr]

55. It's religion for position and profit,

They just interpret the scriptures as they wish them to be for the benefit of whichever agenda they wish to promote to the easily deceived, They have no truly religious agenda nor any type of Moral Compass, Its all about profit and power, Screw the people they don't pay,Take money from the corporations and banks , live in luxury while commanding the ignorant slaves to fork over taxes and freedoms for nothing.😤

[panader0]

56. From 'Zen Flesh Zen Bones'--#16, Not Far From Buddhahood

"A university student while visiting Gasan asked him: "Have you ever read the Christian Bible?"
"No, read it to me," said Gasan.
The student opened the Bible and read from St. Matthew: "And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They toil not, neither do they spin, and yet I say unto you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these....Therefore take no thought for the morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself."
Gasan said: "Whoever uttered those words I consider an enlightened man."

[onecaliberal]

57. They are not really Christians.

Saying you are Christian doesn't make you one any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

[dawg]

63. The central theme of Christianity is a willingness to sacrifice for the sake of others.

That's what that big "t" on top of the churches is all about.

But *any* religion or belief system that becomes the dominant belief system in a society will be co-opted by those who want to use it to enforce conformity and control.

What do you expect authoritarian followers in the U.S. to do? Call themselves atheists? Muslims? Ha! Fat chance.

If we ever get to the point where atheists are a majority in this country, those authoritarian followers will rapidly shift over to non-belief. It might take less than two generations. And then, people like me might face some *real* persecution. Because authoritarian followers are vicious, regardless of the principles or philosophies they claim to be acting in the name of.

[Glitterati]

68. Nothing new about it

Ever heard of the Loving case?

It's the exact same thing - bigots using religion to call interracial marriage against the law.

Those of us who lived through the Civil Rights laws know this shit only too well.

[hughee99]

69. I think the editing department got to it, it's and it now reads

'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these, bothers me.'

[Chathamization]

75. I'm sure this has been posted before, but it's worth posting again

[Vincardog]

77. The Supreme Court (ruled by the religion of unfettered Capitalism) put its' religion into politics.

[Arugula Latte]

78. Christianity has been a tool to oppress and control others since its inception.

That's the main reason it was made up. It's profitable for some groups to control others, and Christianity has proved to be a useful tool for that. Look how the Catholic Church, for one, has literally raped and plundered for centuries, stomping women down the entire time, and how much wealth it has amassed. Religions pays ... for some.

[malaise]

105. I thought about that side of it when I was posting this

but it was/is usually the leaders at the top - and we know they believed in amassing wealth. On the other hand, more than a few of the 'genuine' believers actually practiced the teachings.

[Arugula Latte]

107. That's true. However, a lot of the "little people" believers also use it so they

can have power over others ... Look at a lot of U.S. fundy men (e.g. "quiverful" types like the Duggars) -- their women are kept subservient to the men, the girls are raised to be maids/baby vessels.

[malaise]

108. True

Control over women is one of the great evils of religion.

[99Forever]

80. It's easier to sell hate and bigotry...

... when it's wrapped with "holy scripture."

Just one more reason why organized religions should be outlawed.

[Sunlei]

104. In America an atheist is unelectable, D or R, doesn't matter. Thats why in politics we have so many

fakers, pretend Christians.