Karl Marx: 10 great quotes on his birthday

[xchrom]

http://www.csmonitor.com/Books/2012/0504/Karl-Marx-10-great-quotes-on-his-birthday/On-the-99-percent



***snip


1. On 'the 99 percent'

"You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population; its existence for the few is solely due to its non-existence in the hands of those nine-tenths." (From "The Communist Manifesto," 1848)

2. On Ponzi schemes

"In every stockjobbing swindle every one knows that some time or other the crash must come, but every one hopes that it may fall on the head of his neighbor, after he himself has caught the shower of gold and placed it in safety." (From "Capital: Critique of Political Economy," 1867)


3. On slacking off at work

"Capital is dead labor, that, vampire-like, only lives by sucking living labor, and lives the more, the more labour it sucks. The time during which the laborer works, is the time during which the capitalist consumes the labor-power he has purchased of him.

"If the laborer consumes his disposable time for himself, he robs the capitalist." (From "Capital&quot


4. On worker protections

"Capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the laborer, unless under compulsion from society." (From "Capital&quot


5. On religion

"Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people." (From the "Introduction to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right," 1843)

6. On drudgery

"The fact that labour is external to the worker, i.e., it does not belong to his intrinsic nature; that in his work, therefore he does not affirm himself but denies himself, does not feel content but unhappy, does not develop freely his physical and mental energy but mortifies his body and his mind. The worker therefore only feels himself outside his work, and in his work feels outside himself." (From "Estranged Labour," 1844)


7. On consumerism

"Private property has made us so stupid and one-sided that an object is only ours when we have it – when it exists for us as capital, or when it is directly possessed, eaten, drunk, worn, inhabited, etc., – in short, when it is used by us. Although private property itself again conceives all these direct realisations of possession only as means of life, and the life which they serve as means is the life of private property – labour and conversion into capital." (From "Private Property and Communism," 1844)


8. On the mainstream media

"The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e. the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force. The class which has the means of material production at its disposal, has control at the same time over the means of mental production, so that thereby, generally speaking, the ideas of those who lack the means of mental production are subject to it. The ruling ideas are nothing more than the ideal expression of the dominant material relationships, the dominant material relationships grasped as ideas." (From "The German Ideology," 1845)


9. On not wanting to be pigeonholed

"For as soon as the distribution of labour comes into being, each man has a particular exclusive sphere of activity, which is forced upon him and from which he cannot escape. He is a hunter, a fisherman, a shepherd, or a critical critic and must remain so if he does not wish to lose his means of livelihood; while in communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, to fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticize after dinner, just as I have in mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, shepherd or critic." (From "The German Ideology&quot


10. On Marxism

"If anything is certain, it is that I myself am not a Marxist." (Quoted by Friedrich Engels, in a letter to Eduard Bernstein, 1882)

[orpupilofnature57]

1. The 10th ,proves he was an existentialist

[Brickbat]

2. K&R

[bahrbearian]

3. K&R

[Ichingcarpenter]

4. If he hadn't lived in England he couldn't have observed

and written his astounding treatises on capitalism.

Marx did like to party and even had correspondence with Lincoln during the Civil War.

[coalition_unwilling]

21. IIRC, he also put bread on the table by working

as a European stringer for the New York Herald Tribune.

That's where the whole 'liberal media' thing got started, don'cha know?

[xchrom]

5. i'll give this 1 kick. nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

74. Here's another.

K&R

[Archae]

6. How about noting just what a horse's ass Karl Marx was.

Marx was a reactionary, and he was reacting to brutal dictatorships that had been in place for centuries, like the Russian Czars.

Things are different, Marx's views are failures, and brutal dictatorships are on their way out.
They are going out kicking and screaming, but they are on their way out.

[xchrom]

7. ...

[Ichingcarpenter]

9. I don't understand either post

Marx wanted tyrants..... then.... told you so.

OK......LOL.... no wait....still don't get it....

[xchrom]

10. i ribbing him -- because marx was right.

the posters version of history... not so much.

[Archae]

11. Marx's view of human nature is a failure.

Marx believed in Utopias, but whenever any government was based on Marx's views, they became as bad or worse than the dictatorships they were.

Just look at North Korea.
You want a "1% and 99%?"
It's all-too-noticable there, with the party elite fat and happy while the common person starves. Literally.

[Ichingcarpenter]

13. Thanks Archaic never thought I'd have such an understanding

of history, Marx's readings and philosophy.

Ever think about teaching?



You sound like such an academic.

[Archae]

14. Name just one success Marx had.

Besides selling books, that is.

[Ichingcarpenter]

17. Unions, women's vote, socialistic Teddy Roosevelt's national parks

the workers right to organize....the dead on analysis of Capitalism.... the list goes on.

Oh, you are talking about Nation States? No, you can't find it
US democracy is democracy? ....... At what point in time
in this nation's history?



You do know Lincoln and Marx
corresponded to each other?

[former9thward]

24. You attribte all those to Marx?

You think that T. Roosevelt was a socialist? Wow.

[Zorra]

18. 130 years after he died, people are posting his ideas on an internet message board,

and some who read them are marveling (like myself) at how accurate and how applicable they still are today.

That's a big one for me. I've learned a lot from the writings of Marx, and I've lived my life pretty much outside of the control of the 1% as much as possible, and part of the reason that I was able to do this was because Marx helped illuminate the overall condition of the world for me. I never bought into the system or the bullshit values of the system, and I am probably one of the happiest people on the planet largely because of this.

It's not Karl's fault that the majority of people are not literate enough to comprehend his ideas and put them into more effective actions than what his ideas have previously helped bring to fruition....at least up to this point.

That fault is the fault of the 1%. Controlling information, and keeping people illiterate or semi-literate, is one tool the 1% uses to prevent genuine democratic socialism from replacing capitalism.

The 1% began to actively dumb down America in earnest in the 1980's, pretty much beginning with efforts of Reagan and Bennett.

An illiterate, dumbed down population is easy to control. Sheep follow their leader, even to the slaughterhouse.

I am occupy, I'm not a "Marxist Communist", whatever the heck that really means.

But Marx was a very astute, intelligent, and insightful human being, and I have the greatest respect for his ideas, and I could be considered one of his successes.

So thanks, Karl, and happy birthday.

[former9thward]

23. On the internet you will find people posting the ideas of Stalin, Hitler, Lenin and Mao

decades after they died. That does not prove much.

[Bjorn Against]

28. And Marx has nothing in common with any of them

A few dictators tried to claim Marx's ideas as their own, but Marx did not endorse any of them and almost certainly would have denounced all of them if he were alive to do so. Marx was not a dictator he was an economist and philosopher, comparing him to Hitler is ridiculous.

[coalition_unwilling]

79. Well, I do think Lenin and Marx share the commonality of dialectical materialism. Lenin turned

his analytical insight onto imperialism (as the reductio ad absurdum of industrial capitalism), whereas Marx' focus was far broader and wide-ranging. But I'm actually quite a neophyte when it comes to Lenin's thought and I think there are couple others on this board who are far more familiar with Lenin's thought and writings than I.

[Bjorn Against]

87. Alright, I suppose I can accept some similarities with Lenin as far as ideology goes

The rest of them however are absurd comparisions, especially the Hitler comparision. If Marx had still been alive when Hitler took power he would have been one of the first to be killed. Lenin was the only person among that group who I think truly believed in the principles of Marx although Marx would have had issues with his version of Marxism, Stalin and Mao used Marxist rhetoric to sell themselves to the public but were really more concerned about their own power than anything else and did not practice the Marxist principles they preached, Hitler hated Marxists and they were among the very first people he had killed in the concentration camps.

Any post that compares Marx to dictators immediately raises red flags for me however because Marx was not a dictator nor did he work for any dictators. Anyone who tries to associate him with dictators clearly just listens to propaganda and has no clue who Marx actually was, he was an economist not a tyrant.

[joshcryer]

95. Dialectical materialism and historical materialism only have one outcome, imo.

Stalin implemented it exactly as it logically made sense to do.

Indeed, look at this caricature that shows that Stalin was, very probably, the greatest Marxist of them all: http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1906/12/x02.htm

[hifiguy]

43. Thank you, Zorra.

[Bjorn Against]

32. You do realize that he was one of the key founders of modern social science?

Take a Sociology course sometime, Marx is considered one of the most important theorists in modern day Sociology. Much of the methodology used in the social sciences today is based on Marx's ideas, you clearly don't know much of anything about the guy if you don't think he accomplished anything. His teachings not only inspired hundreds of millions on a political level, they also impacted the hundreds of millions more who were taught the social sciences in universities around the world. He was not a dictator in any way shape or form and those who compare him to a dictator show just how ignorant they are about who the man really was.

[obamanut2012]

103. hahahaha

[coalition_unwilling]

20. You are so full of shit as to stagger belief. Are you seriously

maintaining that Czarist Russia was better for the average citizen than the USSR? Or that pre-revolutionary China was better for the average citizen than life after Mao? I suppose the average Cuban had it better under Batista in your world view.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

29. Every regime you just mentioned is/was bad for the people.

Marx himself said he wasn't a communist.

[coalition_unwilling]

52. I was replying to post #11's general incoherence and

Last edited Sat May 5, 2012, 08:54 PM - Edit history (1)

specifically to this statement: 'but whenever any government was based on Marx's views, they became as bad or worse than the dictatorships they were.' sic

So he was saying the USSR was worse for the average Soviet citizen than Czarist Russia. I call bullshit on that statement.

The George W. Bush regime was bad for the people, as was the Reagan regime.

Marx himself said he wasn't a Marxist.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

53. And you would be wrong. But believe whatever you want.

So he was saying the USSR was worse for the average Soviet citizen than Czarist Russia. I call bullshit on that statement.

Both were miserable.

[coalition_unwilling]

81. Your mere assertion does not make it so. But you believe whatever you want - n/t

[UnrepentantLiberal]

85. Absolutely nothing would convince you.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor#_

[HiPointDem]

35. There are no utopias in Marx. He was an analyst of capitalism, not a designer of utopias.

The Communist Manifesto, originally titled Manifesto of the Communist Party, is a short 1848 publication written by the German Marxist political theorists Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. It has since been recognized as one of the world's most influential political manuscripts.

Commissioned by the Communist League, it laid out the League's purposes and program. It presents an analytical approach to the class struggle (historical and present) and the problems of capitalism, rather than a prediction of communism's potential future forms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_manifesto


Among the things that Marx supported in his *political* life as an activist and theorist were:

1. The 8-hour day. (success, though capital is trying to extend working hours & there is still no universal 8-hour day in the developing world)

2. A progressive income tax (success, though capital has been steadily eating away at it)

3. Universal free education (success, though capital is trying to privatize it)

4. Abolition of child labor (success, though there are indications of capital going there too)

He didn't see these as evidence of communism, though. He saw them as goals of labor under capitalism, as prerequisites to the transition to a communist society.

[arely staircase]

49. castro's cuba is a much better place than batista's nt

[coalition_unwilling]

82. Not for the pimps and 1%ers (jk :) - n/t

[joshcryer]

94. Castro's Cuba has an incarceration rate that rivals the US's.

And they just backed prostitution in Havana's Red Light District after Mariela Castro's visit to capitalist Amsterdam:

They only had to instate MUAP where those such as homosexuals, "bourgeois," "counterrevolutionaries," and others were incarcerated. And it only took fifty years.

Now the resorts are going up and the leaders are leasing away bits of Cuba one plot at a time.

As I keep saying, all Cuba needs now are the Casinos, and they will come, and Batista's vision will be realized.

[arely staircase]

99. i am not an apoligist for castro's human rights record

its just batista's was at least as bad - and without the schools and hospitals that are genuine achievements of that revolution.

[hack89]

97. As we watch Cuba slowly return to a free marked economy

Cuba is fucked when their sugar daddy in Venezuela dies in the near future.

[arely staircase]

100. that's what they said when the USSR collapsed. nt

[hack89]

107. Without nuclear weapons, Russia would be nothing

declining population, rampant corruption, high suicide and alcoholism rates, a weak and obsolescent military.

They are a shadow of their former power and glory.

[joshcryer]

111. Russia was held up by the Eastern Bloc which they occupied for decades (Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact).

Once the bloc broke away Russia lost all that was good for Russia and unfortunately did not take the bloc as an example rather than as an enemy.

Few people realize that Russia made a deal with Germany that they would get to occupy the eastern bloc after the war. The US turned a blind eye to it (who wanted WWIII shortly after WWII?), far worse, imo, than US reticence with regards to corporations doing business with the Nazi's. It was an openly known process that was happening and the bloc was very loud about it, everyone knew, and we sat back and watched.

[arely staircase]

121. i think you misunderstood me

my point is that people said the castro regime would be gone once the soviet union collapsed.

[hack89]

122. Sorry - got it now. nt

[joshcryer]

108. Cuba is on the verge of political revolution, and Capriles will not cut them off.

Cuba is quickly watching the specter of the internet encroach upon the Party and they know what the outcome will be.

[hack89]

110. So the people of Veneuzula have no say in the matter?

raging inflation, food shortages, skyrocketing crime - why do you think the population will be willing to give so much to Cuba? Doesn't do any for them - it was Hugo's socialist fantasy.

[joshcryer]

112. Capriles, the likely next President of Venezuela, will be elected by the people.

And he has said categorically that he wasn't going to cut off Cuba overnight.

He will renegotiate things, and it will likely come out to the benefit of Venezuela more than Cuba, but it's not going to be closing of the valves, it'll be more of a "Hey, start paying us a fair share for the oil." Since Cuba will be undergoing the reforms necessary, the timing will be fine, as Cuba will do OK with it.

I just reject the idea that Capriles is going to toss Cuba under the bus and that Cuba will fall into despotism or something.

[joshcryer]

93. "Gattungswesen" is not "human nature." Marx's view of "human nature" was fine.

His historical materialism was what was a failure. To go through capitalism to create a better state of being is the worst way to accomplish the task.

[white_wolf]

109. How do you expect to get there, then?

You have to have capitalism. You can't go from feudalism to socialism. There aren't enough resources. Capitalism has already produced the material goods needed to take care of everyone's needs, but we need socialism to distribute it better. The market isn't an efficient way to distribute goods.

[joshcryer]

113. You go around capitalism.

Capitalism is not a "creator of resources." In fact, capitalism is a resource restrictor, because it's predicated on maximum profit not maximum production.

Capitalism and state socialism are based on hierarchical production systems, and therefore are incapable of themselves being socialist in a more generic sense.

[OrwellwasRight]

114. Actually, Marx was most definitely NOT a Utopian.

There were Utopian Socialists at the time. He was a Scientific Socialist and mocked the "Utopians." There is no example of a government "based on Marx's views." Neither the USSR, nor its Soviet satellites, nor China, nor its satellite North Korea were "based on Marx's views." They were either based on Leninism-Stalinism or Maoism. North Korea, which you cite, is a perfect example. There is nothing in that state that reflects workers controlling the means of production or the abolition of the capitalist class.

[hifiguy]

41. Fatally wrong.

Marxism, like real Christianity as taught by Christ, has not been tried and found wanting. It has never been tried. Marx had much in intellectual common with Thomas Jefferson.

Leninism, Stalinism and Maoism are NOT Marxism.

[xchrom]

45. I don't disagree w/ you. Nt

[socialist_n_TN]

16. Oh yeah, things are SOOOO different now..........

Instead of the rich capitalists ruling through political proxies like they have in the past (like the Tsars), now they're just doing away with the middleman and ruling directly. The way God intended it. You know, more like feudalism. Now THAT was the "good ole days". Another

I hope you enjoy being a serf.

[scatalogical]

26. What was the true intent and philosophy of Karl Marx?

[scatalogical]

30. what was marx chief aim?

Was it the destruction of Religion?

was the good of the workers only a pretense to something more evil?

Engles was stated as saying Marx was a "monster"

[LAGC]

38. Engels was stated as saying Marx was a "monster" ???

Really? I'm sure you have sources to back that up...

From everything I've read, Engels and Marx were joined at the hip for all intents and purposes.

Engels even went on to compose the second and third volumes of Das Kapital after Marx passed away.

[white_wolf]

44. If so, I'm sure the comment was completely taken out of context.

Perhaps he said it as joke as in "Marx is a monster to work with" or something like that. Of course, the more likely option is that the person you are replying to has no idea what they are talking about.

[scatalogical]

63. from the sources I have read

Marx possessed great hatred for all mankind and wanted nothing more than to destroy it and to enjoy that destruction.


"With disdain I will throw my gauntlet"

Full in the face of the world

And see the collapse of this pygmy giant

Whose fall will not strike my ardour

Then will I wander Godlike and victorious

through the ruins of the world

And, giving my words an active force

I will feel equal to the creator

[white_wolf]

64. Source that, please.

I would like to make sure it's real and if so to read it in it's full context.

[white_wolf]

66. Seriously?

I can't believe you are posting this kind of garbage. This sounds like some bullshit you would read on Free Republic.

[scatalogical]

67. A bit unsettling isnt it?

Personally I dont think its much different from the rest of some garbage posted on here

[white_wolf]

68. The only thing unsettling is that you actually seem believe it.

It is quite clear that Marx was an atheist and had no use of satanism or the supernatural in general.

[scatalogical]

70. whether I choose to believe it does not really matter.

I just found the article interesting.

[Bjorn Against]

78. Where are the article's citations?

I tried searching on google for the poem you cited and I can not find any evidence that Marx actually wrote it. The only source I can find is the "Marx: Atheist or Satanist?" that you cited. All a person needs to do is read the title of that article to know it is not exactly a neutral source, and it should be noted that it never actually cites where Marx allegedly wrote this material, it just cites some Reverand Wurmbrand who says he wrote it but gives no citation for his quote. Can you provide a link to Marx's actual words or do you think we should just be content in believing that if Reverand Wurmbrand says it it must be true?

[HiPointDem]

86. The authoritative source is "Moody Church Media Ministries". lol.

http://www.moodymedia.org/transcripts/confrontingrisen.html

chicago fundie church

The church originally was the result of the aggressive work of famed evangelist Dwight L. Moody in the mid-to-late-19th century.

now a chicago mega-church, affiliated with billy graham's organization. pastor appears on "focus on the family" broadcasts.

ergo, the poster isn't really interested in knowing where the quotes come from, even though they're all fake or misattributed.

[Bjorn Against]

90. Wow how could you find a more authoritive source than Moody Church Media Ministries!

Thanks for your research, it is hard to believe the sources that some people fall for.

[obamanut2012]

104. Moody is crazy

They have been printing crazy Fundie stuff for forever.

[HiPointDem]

88. Yeah, Christian dominionist garbage is pretty unsettling to find on a democratic chatboard.

Dr. Rousas J. Rushdoony is considered to be the modern patriarch of the Christian Reconstruction Movement. Chalcedon promotes the erroneous concept of Christian foundations of the United States government and the Christian duty to reclaim America. The Reconstructionist Creed appears on the Chalcedon website. Chalcedon web pages include "Christianity Persecuted, Christianity Victorious" with numerous articles on the persecuted church and the responsibility of Christians to demand that governments put an end to persecution of the Church.

Among these articles are those of Peter Hammond of Front Line Fellowship and Voice of the Martyrs, ministry of Richard Wurmbrand, former minister/prisoner from Rumania.

http://www.ministers-best-friend.com/Council-for-National-Policy.html


The christian version of the taliban, and equally connected to US intelligence networks.

factual accuracy = not their thing.

[HiPointDem]

83. the sources you've read like fake quotes. as i already demonstrated re the "monster" quote.

try reading marx instead of reading right-wingnuts.

[HiPointDem]

51. I find no such quote in the most complete database of Marx/Engels work that exists.

I see Engels called Bakunin a monster, though.

http://www.google.com/search?as_sitesearch=www.marxists.org%2Farchive%2Fmarx%2F&hl=en&ie=8859-1&oe=8859-1&as_occt=any&num=30&btnG=Google+Search%21&as_epq=monster&as_occt=all&as_q=&as_oq=&as_eq=

Maybe you'd like to offer a cite?

Or it didn't happen.


Here's how such a quote is cited on the internetz by wingers, as an epitaph on an essay once again intended to show how eeeevillll marx was...

Marx is a marked monstrosity -- Friedrich Engels

http://monstermarx.info/index.html


Here's the actual source of the quote:

The Triumph of Faith: To Wit, the Terrible, Yet True and Salutary History of the Erstwhile Licentiate Bruno Bauer; How the Same, Seduced by the Devil, Fallen from the True Faith, Became Chief Devil, and Was Well and Truly Ousted in the End: A Christian Epic in Four Cantos

First published: as an anonymous pamphlet in Neumunster, near Zurich, in December 1842;

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1842/cantos/index.htm

Written by Engels as a political satire.

Scarce was this Manifesto broadcast far and wide,
When awful urges, evil cravings surge inside
Each brazen breast to leave forthwith for Bockenheim...

Right on the very left, that tall and long-legged stepper
Is Oswald, (Engels) coat of grey and trousers shade of pepper;

As soon as they arrive, in bursts the frantic (philosopher Bruno) Bauer,
Engulfed in smoke and steam and Hell-rain’s deadly shower.
He raves, a lanky villain in a coat of green;
Behind the leering face Hell’s offspring can be seen...

Who runs up next with wild impetuosity?
A swarthy chap of Trier (Marx), a marked monstrosity...
He neither hops nor skips, but moves in leaps and bounds,
Raving aloud...

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1842/cantos/ch03.htm

[coalition_unwilling]

19. Marx was a 'reactionary'????? Hunh???? You might want

to check the definition of that term before using it so cavalierly with regard to Marx.

[Starry Messenger]

25. Not everyone can be a furry. nt.

[white_wolf]

31. The very first sentence of your main post discredits you.

Last edited Sat May 5, 2012, 03:42 PM - Edit history (1)

If you don't even know what the word reactionary means and can't be bothered go to dictionary.com to find out, you really aren't worth debating with.

[apocalypsehow]

36. "The very first sentence of you main post discredits you" - LOL.

[white_wolf]

39. Is that all you've got?

An attack for something as small as an oversight? It wasn't even an actual mistake since I, of course, know how to use "your." I simply wrote it fast and left off the "r." Seriously, please tell me you have something more substantial than that.

[eridani]

91. He was certainly right about what was wrong then and now

But it does not follow that his prescriptions for fixing things were right.

[obamanut2012]

101. That word doesn't mean what you think it means

[snagglepuss]

8. K & R.

[Starry Messenger]

12. k&r

[arely staircase]

15. marx was a terrible prognosticator (history not being a science but a humanity)

But he was a great diagnostician and his critiques of the innequities of capitalism are still second to none. Happy Birthday KM.

[coalition_unwilling]

22. Entire university faculties of history will take issue with your

characterization of history as a 'humanity' and not a 'science'. Tenure and promotions rest on it

[arely staircase]

27. and i would humbly disagree wih each and every one

anyone who thinks history is a.science is about one intellectual step above Nostradamus.

[coalition_unwilling]

50. Well, I was mainly joking, but typically history is

considered a 'social science,' along with sociology and economics.

There are sub-specialties of history, e.g., cliometrics, that deal with statistical sampling methods and data aggregation.

After 1945, History needed to justify itself as a subject worthy of study and one way it did so was to hitch its band-wagon to the cult of science.

But I'm with you. The best history embraces science and the scientific method but is not synonymous with it.

[arely staircase]

54. oh i read everything from feminist social historians to traditional military historians

to you name it. I think a.lot of good stuff has come out of Marxist historical/sociological/cultural anthropolicical tradition (gramsci for one) But unless one is using the scientific method complete with control groups, etc., it ain't science.

[janx]

48. Yes, indeed they do.

[HiPointDem]

56. his prognostications being?

[arely staircase]

58. that the failures of capitalism and class

struggle would.lead to common ownership of the means of production. sure one could.reply that it just hasn't happened yet but a fundie.Christian could say the same about the physical return of Christ.

[HiPointDem]

59. that's one prognostication. nothing to say about any others?

[arely staircase]

60. not at the

moment. And that is the one for which he is most famous. Why must we rush past it?

[HiPointDem]

69. um, because there were some preconditions....and preconditional prognostications?

[arely staircase]

73. ok, well give me some

i read a lot of history, lot's of it by academics coming from marxist and often feminist social history schools. I'm also an armchair fan of cultural anthropology and sociology - like Durkheim, Foucault and the like. I read Gramsci. All of these academics have intellectual roots in Marxist theory - Gramsci , of course, a straight up Marxist.

Very solid academic work owes a lot to Marxist thought. I am not bashing Marx or marxists academics.

I have already stated that marx's critique of capitalism is still the best there is (making him a great diagnostician.) Specifically i believe his analysis of the surplus value of labor is the nail on which his brilliant diagnosis of capitalism rests, imho.

His belief that history in predictable and innevitable just doesn't hold water with me - and the innevitability of capitalism's demise, the reason for it and then the communal ownership of the means of production, is the most glaring.

But hey, all of my opinion is based on what I heave read, studied and pondered with an open mind over the years. Im no marxist scholar. So, enlighten me to some of Marx's predictions that did
occur. I'm guessing you probably do know more than I on the subject(no sarcasm).

[HiPointDem]

76. don't want to give you anything, just sounding you out on marx's prognostications. you sounded

so certain that the prognostication*s* (multiple) didn't pan out.

just trying to see how much you actually know about the matter and what the other prognostications you're talking about were.

[arely staircase]

77. so no interest in enlightening me?

so it all boys down to my use of the plural instead of the singular. seriously i love political and economic philosophy.

if you want to give me nothing and are just cross examining me to see how little i know compared to you, i have no interest in participating.

but if you wish to even giive me some links that might teach me something new i'd love to have them.

[HiPointDem]

80. you claimed marx's prognostications failed. just wanted to see what you were talking about.

and apparently what you were talking about was the standard canard: there hasn't been a proletarian revolution or overthrow of capitalism.

i can read that in any local letters to the editor column. don't need to have read marx to make such pronouncements, that's taught to us in the cradle.

[arely staircase]

98. and you asked for an example, i gave you one and asked for contrary examples and you had nothing.

i think that summarizes it pretty well.

[HiPointDem]

106. i didn't ask for "examples", i asked: "his prognostication*s* being?" so no, it doesn't.

HiPointDem (1,055 posts) Profile Journal Send DU Mail Ignore

56. his prognostications being?



and you didn't ask me for "contrary examples," you asked me to fill you in on the prognostication*s* you initially told me had all failed.

i just wanted to see if you'd actually read & processed anything or were just dropping names.

[arely staircase]

118. and you still have nothing nt

[HiPointDem]

119. and you never had anything but what you read in the mainstream media -- other people

telling you what marx said.

every thread where people start talking about what marx said makes it obvious they only read the cliff notes.

[arely staircase]

120. and given your reluctance (or inability) to enlighten us

one could assume you haven't even read the cliff notes. let me know when you have had a chance to read and digest them and feel confident answering the question that has left you so stumped. never be afraid to just admit you don't know something.

[HiPointDem]

123. you made the claim. i asked you to back it up. you can't, you just have boilerplate.

why i should 'enlighten' you about marx given that you claimed to know his prognostication*s* failed, he was a poor prognosticator, etc., i don't know.

[arely staircase]

124. lol nt

[HiPointDem]

125. lol yourself. you don't know bupkis about marx or his prognostications.

[Odin2005]

33. K&R

[josephslaton]

34. why do you guys have be to so disrespectful

To each other? That shit is for right wingers

[coalition_unwilling]

84. Post #11 represents ignorance, shrillness and slander, all

combined in a single post. Absolutely ridiculous. There's the right-winger right on this thread, speaking of right wingers.

[steve2470]

37. Great discussion

OT trivial question: why does he have his right hand in his coat ? A common pose in the 19th century ?

[white_wolf]

40. Wasn't Napoleon always painted like that?

I think the pose may have actually originated with him and simply spread.

[steve2470]

42. I think he was, yes nt

[obamanut2012]

105. That was a usual pose then

I've read it helped keep them steady while they posed. Who knows.

[hifiguy]

46. Not only did Lincoln and Marx correspond,

where do you thing Lincoln got this notion from? Spoken at the Cooper Union by A. Lincoln:

"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration."

Lincoln viewed capitalism as an evil necessary to fight the Civil War.

No one else has ever described the essence of capitalism with half the insight of Karl Marx.

[Ichingcarpenter]

47. I celebrate Marx's, Lennons, Socrates and Jeffersons's birth

equally ......

LOL equally.....
nice term.

[orpupilofnature57]

55. Socrates Cave and the Communist Manifesto

definitely coincide .

[white_wolf]

57. Wasn't the cave Plato's idea?

But then again, I'm always kind of confused where Socrates ends and Plato begins.

[arely staircase]

61. yes it was

And it was apparently a hell of a place until AIDS came along and the health department shut it down.

[mathematic]

62. It's all Plato

Socrates was a character in Plato's works. Socrates never wrote anything down. What we know about Socrates comes from people that wrote about him, like Plato. Scholars surmise by the evolution of thought in Plato's works that the early stuff was "Socrates" and the later stuff was "Plato". The allegory of the cave is in The Republic, one of Plato's later works.

What the cave has to do with the communist manifesto beats the hell out of me. The allegory of the cave is about Plato's wacky (though highly influential in the development of Christianity) metaphysics and epistemology and is not about any kind of popular struggle for equality by the masses or even the relationships of different groups of people with each other.

Plato used the allegory of the cave to describe why ideas were not subject to the material world and why his Theory of Forms explained how people interact with the non-material. I'm actually kind of surprised to see anybody suggest there's a connection between the non-materialist thoughts of Plato and the notorious materialist Marx.

[orpupilofnature57]

96. Materialist ???? Behaviorist

[KG]

71. you've got nothing to lose but a DURec, comrade.

[whistler162]

72. You forgot.....

"Say the secret word and...."

[lordsummerisle]

75. What I first noticed

is that in that photo he looks like he's about to pull a gun on whoever is taking his picture...

[unkachuck]

89. K&R....n/t

[eridani]

92. I loves me my Marxist fire department.

He wrote the operating manual for all urban fire departments (rural ones are anarchosyndicalist).

From each according to his ability; to each according to his needs.

From each according to his ability--the more your property is worth, the more you pay in property taxes.

To each according to his needs--they won't send a truck out unless you have a fire or other emergency.

[obamanut2012]

102. Note this is from the Christian Science Monitor, not Pravda

For anyone freaking out about xchrom posting the OP (thanks for posting the OP, btw!). The CSM isn't exactly known as a "Red" source.

[usregimechange]

115. No thanks, not going to celebrate Marx

He oversimplified the entire human race and only viewed human behavior through that theory, which makes him almost blind.

[white_wolf]

116. His analysis of capitalism is being proven true everyday...

So, perhaps you should reconsider your statement.

[Dawson Leery]

117. k/r