A sad statement on American culture

[MadHound]

The new Avengers movie broke the record for initial weekend sales.

Look, I love comic books as much as the next person. I collected them throughout my childhood, teens, and twenties. My comic book collection ultimately allowed me to make a huge down payment on my first house. And yes, I collected the Avengers(and even had an Avengers #1 in pristine condition).

But still, a movie based on a comic book? Hardly high brow art.

Perhaps that is the secret, the movie appealed to the lowest common denominator in our society. And that is a shame.

I watched some of the comic book based movies. None were great, some were middling, a few were downright horrible. Overall, I don't think they have a track record that warrants a record breaking box office on this new release. I know that when and if I watch the Avengers, it will be on DVD, at home, preferably rented out from the one buck selection.

I know, I know, I'm sounding like an old, crotchety man. But really, is this what movies are degenerating into, refried comic books put on the big screen? I certainly hope not.

[Liberal_in_LA]

1. I've only seen a few of these 'comic book' movies - one of the batman, and one or 2 of the

xmen. wasn't particularly impressed.

[nessa]

2. Breaking a record for sales makes it popular, not high brow or a commentary on culture...

I think most things that are considered 'high brow' are rarely the most popular art in any society.

[MadHound]

6. Let's take a look at the French

Their top selling films are comedies, dramas, sci-fi, action, not a single comic book adaptation among them. Not high brow stuff, but rather middle brow, so to speak.

Comic books, lowest common denominator. A sad statement.

[JonLP24]

12. It did well in France

While not quite reaching all-time levels, the movie also had very strong starts in South Korea ($12.9 million), France ($12.7 million), Italy ($10.4 million), and Spain ($7.3 million). Oddly, it only opened to $6.7 million in Germany, though looking at past Avengers movie grosses it doesn't appear the Germans are as fond of the team as the rest of the world.

http://boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=3431

Using Germany would probably be a better look but the film is selling far more in the rest of the world than North America so you could say it is sad state of World culture.

[MrScorpio]

29. I disagree

Take The Fifth Element. Yes, it was an American production and yes, it wasn't actually based on an actually comic book, per se.

But the creator, writer and director, Luc Besson is French and his movie, while composed of dramatic, comedic, sci-fi and action movie elements, it's also based on the ideal French comic book.

[JHB]

33. What's low brow, "lowest common denominator" about comics?

I'm not being faceteous or ignoring the superhero genre's numerous and considerable shortcomings, but I am asking you to define your terms.

I'd say what I'm most objecting to is the automatic association of comics with superheros and with low-brow. Like any other medium, the genres and quality vary, and to lock the three of them into a narrow triumverate helps produce the very cultural ghetto you are in dismay about.

[hack89]

87. Except for Thor, Iron Man, Bat Man, Transformers, etc etc.

17th highest grossing movie of 2011

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_2011_box_office_number-one_films_in_France


http://www.deadline.com/2010/05/bulletproof-iron-man-2-already-grosses-10-million-overseas-155m-predicted-for-north-american-debut-weekend/

The Top 5 also include Germany ($29.7 million), France and the Maghreb region ($27.5 million) and South Korea ($25.0 million).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Knight_%28film%29

[mathematic]

91. The Adventures of Tintin is a comic book adaptation

It's a belgian comic. The french gross for the Adventures of Tintin was actually about 2/3rds of the american gross. Indicating that this comic movie adaptation was vastly more popular in france than it was here.

Looking at that list of top weekly films in France, it's safe to say that their taste is similar to our taste.

[Codeine]

120. Comic books are taken quite seriously in France.

They have a huge comics industry.

There's nothing inherently lowbrow about sequential graphic storytelling. To make a statement like that betrays an ignorance of the subject and a prejudicial, petty attitude toward something based on stereotyping and snobbery.

[Codeine]

121. I would also note that the two most expensive French films ever made

Last edited Mon May 7, 2012, 12:43 PM - Edit history (1)

were live-action comic book adaptations of the Asterix comics. One of them even had a fucking Snoop Dogg song on the soundtrack.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

126. Don't the French love Jerry Lewis?

I mean, really?

[4th law of robotics]

155. Are comic books necessarily low-brow?

Seems like they should be judged by the story line and effort that goes in to them rather than the media in which they are presented.

That's like saying plays are highbrow. Meaning that every godawful middleschool presentation of a christmas carol is high art.

[Major Nikon]

181. Most of their top selling films are made in the US

And the films that seem to do the best over there are animated/Disney/Pixar type films. Not exactly what I would call even middle brow. The reason why comic book films don't make it there is because there is no comic book market to speak of that has existed for the past 50 years or so.

[Codeine]

185. Actually, there is a fairly large comics market, and a well-respected one.

They're called "bande dessinées" (drawn strip) and they sell very well. Perhaps the most famous is a personal favorite of mine -- the Asterix series is popular world-wide, and was the inspiration for the two most expensive French films ever made. Hell, the French have one of the largest comic conventions on earth -- larger than ComicCon in San Diego even.

Here's a Wiki article on the subject, if you're interested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Belgian_comics

[Major Nikon]

188. a French comics market not an American comics market

Which is what I should have specified.

[Codeine]

189. Oops. I misunderstood. nt

[JonLP24]

3. I never seen the film

but I heard nothing but great things about it. One movie reviewer claims that he uses a watch test to judge a movie, how many times he looks down at his watch to determine how much time left is in the film, he said 0 times for the Avengers.

I never was interested in comic book characters but I thoroughly enjoyed the Dark Night film, one of the best recent films I've watched. I don't think it says anything about American culture except that either a lot of people like the film and/or a lot of people want to see the film.

[FarCenter]

4. Number of eyeballs watching is the only metric of a movie's success

Nothing else matters. The studios optimize paying eyeballs.

[Darth_Kitten]

86. No, a movie can be critically acclaimed AND popular....

it's just the low-brow crap some of us are really tired of. And no, I haven't seen this movie yet, but in general...

[DevonRex]

5. K&R.

I like movies with good stories and good actors. If the special effects outweigh the plot, the movie wasn't made for me. I liked Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy. So, what does that say about me? And I don't care for RDJr. I absolutely HATE his version of Sherlock Holmes.

If anybody wants to see a really good, modern-day interpretation of Sherlock Holmes, watch the PBS version with Benedict Cumberbatch. You can catch the 1st season on streaming Netflix. And the second season just started on PBS this past Sunday, although I did watch all 3 episodes online somewhere last week. Some British version of YouTube. Can't remember what it is now.

But Benedict Cumberbatch is just awesome. Quite handsome, too.

[randome]

8. Cumberbatch is great. But so is Downey.

There is room in the mythos for all.

And I thought the Avengers was an awesome movie.

[MadHound]

10. Oh, I don't mind the occasional special effects extravaganza,

But really, to have it set the record? Sad, just sad.

[FarCenter]

13. You might like MI-5 (aka Spooks in the UK)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0160904/

[DevonRex]

15. I've just started

working my way through that series. I'm in year two and have a long, long way to go thankfully. Any other suggestions? I watched all of Luther and loved that one, too, but I liked the first season better than the second.

[FarCenter]

18. I've watched a few episodes of George Gently.

Not as gripping, but they have some charm. Detective stories set in Northern England in the late '60s.

[DevonRex]

20. Thanks. I'll put that in my queue.

I like the late 60s and I like to get out of London sometimes, too. It can start to feel cramped, even just on TV.

[uppityperson]

44. 40 minutes to Sherlock season 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The RDJr Sherlock is Sherlock! Man of Action! Not Sherlock Holmes.

[DevonRex]

57. Ah, is that what it is?

Well, Mr. Cumberbatch is way hotter. Is it bad that I noticed? I'll be ashamed later.

[uppityperson]

58. 4 minutes. Popcorn made, treat for dog there, quite trip to the loo and.....bye

I'm an old fart and I agree

[uppityperson]

75. Well, that was fun.

Waiting for dvd so I can read, or hear a few times, what he says so fast! Very fun. Poor Watson, is so manipulated by Sherlock, is such a good hearted guy.

[DevonRex]

77. He is, isn't he?

And he doesn't even have the time for a relationship of his own, what with running around investigating all the time and taking care of Sherlock. And he's a doctor, yet he's seen as the one with the ordinary brain. He'll get quite the complex.

[MrSlayer]

7. I am hardly a low brow guy.

And I thought this movie was great. I'm insulted by your insinuation. Or I would be if I actually gave a shit what other people think.

Maybe you should drag your old, crotchety ass out to see it. It's a lot of fun, you don't need to have seen any of the other movies to follow it and it has Sam Jackson in it.

[MadHound]

14. Wow, speaking of sad,

You base your decisions on "reviews". Don't even think for yourself, eh. You do know that a lot of those are pretty much bought and paid for, don't you? Talk about a tool.

As far as my sex life goes, my wife thinks ours is great, thanks for asking though.

Perhaps you need to work on those anger management issues of yours. I express an opinion you don't like, and BAM! You go right off the deep end, complete with cursing and everything. Really, you should do something about that temper before you blow a gasket or stroke out.

[uppityperson]

45. Good response.

and great hide

[JHB]

11. Since when have popular movies been highbrow?

Last edited Sun May 6, 2012, 07:51 PM - Edit history (1)

And are superhero movies really "lowest common denominator? It doesn't have Adam Sandler or fart jokes in it, or angsty vampires (though it was written someone who had handled vampire slayers pretty well).

There are a lot of indicators of ignorance and culture-coarsening, but I don't think superhero movies are one of them, at least, not in and of themselves. Their prevalence these days is more from the SFX being up to the task, and a few big hits to create a bandwagon for the studios to try to jump on.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. Top grossing movies of 1969 vs. the top grossing movies of 2009

Top grossing films (U.S.)
Rank
1. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (witty anti-Western)
2. Midnight Cowboy (serious film about a drifter who tries to make it in New York)
3. Easy Rider (friends tour the country on their motorcycles and smoke dope)
4. Hello, Dolly! (musical)
5. Bob & Carol & Ted & Alice (comedy about mate swapping)
6. Paint Your Wagon (musical)
7. True Grit (the original)
8. Cactus Flower (a bedroom farce)
9. On Her Majesty's Secret Service (James Bond)
10. Z (a FRENCH film about the coup that ended democracy in Greece for several years)
11. The Sterile Cuckoo (low-key romantic drama about two misfits)
12. Run, Angel, Run! (never heard of this one--it's a violent motorcycle gang flick)
13. They Shoot Horses, Don't They? (serious drama about a couple trying to survive during the Depression)
14. The Wild Bunch
15. Alice's Restaurant

Not a comic book-based film in the list, all live action. At least six of these films are considered classics.

Now 40 years later:

1 Avatar (animated)
2 Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (comic book)
3 Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (children's book)
4 The Twilight Saga: New Moon (teen vampire books)
5 Up (cartoon)
6 The Hangover (gross-out comedy)
7 Star Trek (derivative sci fi0
8 The Blind Side
9 Alvin and the Chipmunks: The Squeakquel (kids' cartoon)
10 Sherlock Holmes (don't know much about this version)
11 Monsters Vs. Aliens (the title says it all)
12 Ice Age: Dawn of the Dinosaurs (the title says it all)
13 X-Men Origins: Wolverine (the title says it all)
14 Night at the Museum: Battle of the Smithsonian (special effects)
15 2012 (sci fi based on a dumb rumor)

Compare and contrast.

[Hippo_Tron]

73. The industry has been making mediocre movies for a while

The quality of films you list for 1969 is better on the whole, although it's not like On Her Majesty's Secret Service is particularly highbrow. I imagine some of those comedies you list from '69 aren't either, though I haven't seen them.

But the problem is that right now Hollywood is obsessed with sequels and remakes right now, because from the business side, it's a guaranteed audience. In order for people to see better movies, Hollywood needs to make and market better movies.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

79. Yes, there was an article in the NY Times a few months back about the studios wondering

how to attract more people to the movies. The readers' comments were nearly unanimous: "Make better movies."

There are plenty of fine movies being made, here and in other countries, things that are as good as any of the classics of 1969, but they receive limited distribution, a few "art" theaters in large cities and a couple of film festivals.

[Art_from_Ark]

174. Personally, I think 1967 was a better year for movies

The Graduate-- Mrs. Robinson seduces Benjamin

The Jungle Book-- Disney animated classic

Guess Who's Coming to Dinner-- story about interracial marriage starring Spencer Tracy, Sidney Poitier and Katherine Hepburn

Bonnie and Clyde-- Warren Beatty and Mia Farrow become folk heroes of a sort

The Dirty Dozen-- World War II movie

Valley of the Dolls-- scandalous (for the time) tale of aspiring actresses

You Only Live Twice-- James Bond movie

To Sir, with Love-- Sidney Poitier teaches British high school kids a thing or two. The title song was also one of the top song hits of 1967.

The Born Losers-- first of the Billy Jack series

Thoroughly Modern Millie-- madcap spoof with Julie Andrews trying to marry her rich boss

Camelot-- film adaptation of the musical starring Vanessa Redgrave and Dumbledore

In the Heat of the Night-- another Sidney Poitier classic about a black man who is wrongly accused of a murder in Mississippi

Casino Royale-- 1967 version of an Austin Powers movie-- starring Peter Sellers

I Am Curious (Yellow)-- racy Swedish movie

Barefoot in the Park-- film adaptation of the Neil Simon play

Doctor Dolittle-- film adaptation of the children's book

[Lydia Leftcoast]

175. "It was a very good year," as Frank Sinatra would sing

By the way, I'll be arriving in Tokyo on June 9 and flying out of Narita on June 14.

[Art_from_Ark]

179. So do you have any specific plans for your visit yet?

[Odin2005]

16. Oh for fucks sake! The elitism oozes...

[Darth_Kitten]

85. Oh, for fuck's sake, maybe he's right?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

118. Oh for fucks sake, maybe he isn't?

You don't have to talk to a knuckle dragger like me though.....

[lunatica]

17. I like movies. All movies except the slasher ones which are just gratuitously violent

I like every genre and old movies and new movies. Science Fiction, romantic comedies, historical, comic book movies, foreign, adventure, drama, psychological thrillers, murder mysteries, comedy and all in between. I even like animated movies, especially Pixar movies. I think it's an artform. I appreciate the music, the camera angles, the immense work that goes into special effects so we don't even notice it's there and the costumes, make-up and acting. I will even see some movies many times just to appreciate the different parts better.

If I don't like a certain type of movie I don't go see it. But I would never think someone else's taste in movies was bad. I would just think it's different.

[cherokeeprogressive]

19. While you're busy bashing "American culture", consider how the movie was recieved in other places...

"The Avengers set opening-day records in New Zealand, Malaysia and Iceland, a single-day record in the Philippines, as well as both single- and opening-day records in Singapore and in Thailand. It also earned the second highest-grossing opening day in Australia ($6.2 million), behind Deathly Hallows – Part 2, in Mexico, in the Philippines and in Vietnam.[147][148][150][151][121] It set opening-weekend records in 12 territories, including Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Ecuador, Peru, Central America, Bolivia, Taiwan, the Philippines and Hong Kong.[149][152] It also earned the second largest five-day opening in Australia ($20.2 million).[153][149] In the UK, Ireland and Malta, it earned £2.5 million ($4.1 million) on its opening day[154] and £15.8 million ($25.7 million) during the weekend,[155] setting an opening-weekend record for a superhero film.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Avengers

But it's just a statement about American culture.

[DevonRex]

21. That's a valid point.

Film culture in general. TV, too. More special effects, more "reality" shows. Fewer writers, actors, etc. I think that is what his complaint is about, but he specified the US. You rightly point out that it's worldwide.

[spanone]

22. america is hardly highbrow

in my experiences

[sufrommich]

26. Most popular culture isn't highbrow, in any country. nt

[Codeine]

112. The world isn't highbrow.

That's why the term "highbrow" even exists -- it bespeaks something higher than average, something above the common or mean level. The Avengers made over $600 million worldwide. It's a hit everywhere, across the globe.

Let's not make this about "America."

[raouldukelives]

23. It's a movie. It's not meant to be high brow.

This is coming from someone who hasn't watched a TV show in 10 years but does rent movies all the time. I have really enjoyed many of the recent comic book movies such as Watchmen, Batman Begins, Iron Man or American Splendor. However I could be making a mistake. I have been passing over many top rated newer movies like Sex in the City, Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, Twilight or Jack and Jill.
It's not Tati or Kubrick but I've enjoyed them.
A big shout out to green screen too. Being able to film fantastic action sequences, explosions, crazy sets and not having to contribute heavily to climate change anymore. Great stuff!

Now as far as TV goes. I think appealing to the lowest common denominator is right on the money.

[JonLP24]

24. I think you're missing out when it comes to TV Shows

The Wire, Breaking Bad, Hell on Wheels, and many more. I never seen Dexter but it gets high praises.

I agree there is lowest common denominator stuff like American Idol leading to America's Got Talent, The Voice, and some other shows. But I think the state of TV shows is at its highest point. The medium is better for telling stories while numerous sequels are being made when it comes to movies.

[Odin2005]

88. You forgot House MD!

Love that show!

[cynatnite]

25. It's a superhero movie. You expected it to be "high brow"?

It's good fun. That's what it was made for. I would agree that movie quality isn't what it used to be, but this one is the last movie I'd point to as an example since the makers intention was about non-thinking entertainment.

[MineralMan]

27. There are many movies.

Some are popular fluff. Others are something else. It's not a zero sum game. My wife and I watched Hugo this afternoon. Excellent movie. We will not be watching The Avengers.

[jp11]

28. This has been going on for decades

'refried' ideas are used to save money, show them to a new generation, etc etc.

Summer blockbusters have been about appealing to the LCD since it became clear that was the 'best' way to make lots of money like with just about all products/services business models.

[Son of Gob]

30. I bet you're a hoot at parties

&feature=related

[TedBronson]

82. *rubs temples*

This... a million times this...

I'm sure we should all watch proper art, in the eyes of OP.

The reality, of course, is that the idea of heroes and villains and epic battles have been part of human culture for thousands of years and are some of our most enduring forms of art.

The best part of the Avengers is that there is someone for everyone to identify with.

[aikoaiko]

31. Sometimes a movie is just a movie.

We all need a little escapist entertainment once in a while. Lots of people need it now.

[Egalitarian Thug]

32. Two things. One, the film industry has not yet come to grips with technology and is

wildly thrashing about in an attempt to figure out a way of continuing to extract obscene profits from their craft, and so far, Big FX Extravaganza's are the only way they've found.

Two, H.L. Mencken identified the basis for their business model about a century ago. "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."

[EC]

34. People spend hard earned money on movies

these days. If they are going for a night out at the theater, they want to feel good leaving. They need a hero (hero's) to win.

[cali]

35. I'll try to break this to you gently

by and large the American Movie Industry has never ever ever ever been about high brow art.

Not 80 years ago and not today.

[Ron Green]

38. No, but time was that some very fine movies

got made, more of them closer to 80 years ago than to today.

[XemaSab]

42. Not really

We think that because the GOOD 80 YO stuff has lasted.

When people in 100 years look back on the last decade, will they remember the films of Ang Lee, David Lynch, Clint Eastwood, Joel and Ethan Coen, Peter Jackson, and Quentin Tarantino or will they remember the films of whoever the hell made the last Adam Sandler shitfest?

[CAG]

36. Saw Avengers 3D yesterday and it rocked!!!!

Awesome entertainment! Now I'll go back to reading "A Peoples Tragedy" about the leadup to the russian revolution so I can get my "high-brow" elitism schtick back on.

[quinnox]

37. I'm not a fan of comic book movies but come on

there is nothing wrong with people liking them. I enjoy watching all sorts of movies from artsy type foreign movies to hack and slash horror movies, to cheesy science fiction and western movies like The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly (my favorite movie).

[FrodosPet]

47. An AMAZING, powerful movie

The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly is the greatest anti-war movie ever. I have NEVER seen a movie that more movingly portrays the human cost of war.

From the abuse at the POW camp to the battle of the bridge with the heart-wrenching scene where "The Man With No Name" gives the dying soldier a last drag of his cigarello, the movie hits you about how cruel and wasteful war is.

Anybody who thinks it is JUST a western shoot em up have never WATCHED that film.

[raouldukelives]

59. It is a great one.

If you haven't seen them I would also recommend a couple of my favorite anti-war movies. Johnny Got His Gun and Paths of Glory.

[rppper]

78. one of my favorites!

another good film about the price of war and revenge is "murpheys war" with peter o'toole...great film....

[CactusJak]

39. Shakespeare at the Globe Theater was considered "low brow"

and was quite bawdy for it's day.

Of course now it's considered high art and all hoity toity.

To be or not to be, aww shuddup Will just answer the question.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

40. Whatever

I saw it at midnight when it was released. It was fun and highly entertaining. It allowed me to escape real life for two hours and twenty minutes.

But thanks for reminding me now that life is all about looking down on others to feel better about your taste. Even though I've probably seen more "art house" pictures in my lifetime than most people who are sniffing down their noses at The Avengers.

[AnnieBW]

41. It was surprisingly good

And had some good non-comic-book moments. The best being Loki forcing a bunch of German people in Stuttgart to kneel to him. One elderly man - presumably Jewish - refused to do kneel, saying that they did all of that before and value freedom. Loki tries to kill him, but he's saved by Captain America. Possibly the best scene in the movie (other than Hulk smashing Loki to bits).

Yeah, it's not going to win Best Picture. But it was a great popcorn movie.

[white_wolf]

63. I loved both those scenes.

The whole theater was laughing for about a minute after the Hulk and Loki scene.

[Codeine]

114. Yeah, The Hulk smashing Loki into the floor like terrier shaking a rat

pretty much stole the film for me. Hell, The Hulk in general ended up being one of the best elements of the movie, didn't he?

[XemaSab]

43. Which is a better film: V for Vendetta or Titanic?

[Johnny Rico]

49. I can only assume that's a trick question...

Since we're talking superhero flicks, I'll take Watchmen over both.

[XemaSab]

52. It's not that tough

One is based on a comic book and the other one is based on a historical event.

Which one is a better movie?

[Johnny Rico]

54. Of the two, I would pick V for Vendetta. Titanic is incredibly overrated (IMHO, of course).

That having been said, I didn't think much of V for Vendetta either. The fact that it's based on a comic book is utterly irrelevant.

[99Forever]

46. Who died and left you as Entertainment Judge?

[Darth_Kitten]

84. Someone with a right to their opinion?

n/t

[99Forever]

92. Do I need to remind you of what traits ...

... opinions and rectums share?

The OP decided to condemn an entire Nation because he's got his nose in a snit over other people's tastes in movies. Ridiculous. As is your defense of it.

[HangOnKids]

108. That Is Your Opinion

Do I need to remind you of what traits opinions and rectums share?

[99Forever]

136. OH my!

I've been mimicked!

I was in Jr High School the last try someone tried that silliness on me.

[HangOnKids]

170. Do You Often Reply To Your Own Posts? n/t

[99Forever]

183. Oh please have mercy.

Your rapier wit is cutting me to the bone.

[cynatnite]

48. Actually, I thought the movie "Jackass" was a sad statement on American Culture. Am I wrong? n/t

[Johnny Rico]

51. Not in the slightest.

[ZombieHorde]

50. No art is high brow art.

"High brow art" is a perception, not a quality of matter.

[zappaman]

53. Unrec

And you kids get off my lawn!

[hfojvt]

55. it was worse

when they made a movie about Bluntman and Chronic

bonnngggg

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

56. "Tell 'Em Steve Dave!!!"

"STOP CALLING ME THAT!!"

[Codeine]

152. Mother mother fuck, mother mother fuck fuck,

mother fuck mother fuck, noinsh noinsh.
One, two, one two three four noinsh noinsh noinsh noinsh.
Smokin weed, smokin whizz. Doin coke, drinkin beers.
Drinkin beers, beers, beers.
Rollin fatties, smokin blunts.
Who smokes blunts?
We smoke blunts.
Rollin blunts and smokin...

[Manifestor_of_Light]

60. The Dark Knight was the most violent and pointless POS I have ever seen.

No emotional connections. The two women characters are killed off early in the film. Starts with a bank robbery, has the Joker threatening one of the women with a knife at her throat, continuous violence and threats of violence.

The only dignity in the movie was Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman as the butlers.

A complete waste of film and talent. Pointless violence.

I saw it, unfortunately, because the crappy small town multiplex was supposed to run the second X-Files movie, and nobody showed up before we got there so they cancelled it.

That's why we got shuffled into it. I talked to some kids after we got out of the movie and they could not understand why hubby and I thought it was so horrible.

I've met compulsively planning liars like the joker and don't need to see that kind of mental illness on the screen. those kinds of movies can give me nightmares. Absolutely no emotional connections between the characters. Nothing but pathological people threatening and killing others.

Also, it tells us that rich white men are IMPORTANT. They must be followed around because they are important, and every movement, everything they say, and their fashions in suits or expensive cars are important and must be followed. It's extremely sexist as well as violent. The women and other humans are completely disposable. They are killed and nobody sheds a single tear.

Absolutely a frighteningly dystopian movie.

[white_wolf]

66. I'm sorry, but I really think you missed the point of the movie.

Of course, it focus on Bruce Wayne, it's his story. The violence wasn't at all pointless, it was meant to show the depths of the Joker's madness, it was meant to break Batman and Harvey Dent. I'm sorry, but I think you are wrong and judging from his review so does Roger Ebert, I only reference him, because I'd hardly consider him the type of person to enjoy senseless and pointless violence. I'm sorry, but you missed the point.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

165. So the Joker is psychologically tormenting Batman and Harvey Dent to break them down.

So this is supposed to be entertaining? Kind of like a crude version of gaslighting? saying things to drive a person crazy? I'm referencing the movie "Gaslight" with Ingrid Bergman.

Nothing I want to see there. So the point of the movie is psychological abuse, not any warmth or positive feelings between any of the characters. Not even a warm loving male-female interest. None of what is called "romantic interest".

I've been psychologically and emotionally abused by quite a number of bosses and ex-partners. Why in hell would I enjoy seeing a criminal trying to mentally destroy a rich guy, Bruce Wayne? No way I would enjoy it.

It's extremely negative. I don't watch negative, violent movies, and I am no pollyanna.

I see exactly what it is. Stupid, pointless violence in a battle for male domination. That's been going on for centuries in the form of war and oppression on the grand scale, individual oppression on a small scale.

Still a pointless waste of time in my opinion. You haven't changed my attitude.

[cynatnite]

67. Morgan Freeman was not the butler. He was the CEO of Wayne Enterprises. n/t

[white_wolf]

62. Have you seen the movie?

It was really good. It was fun, exciting, funny and above all entertaining. That's what movies are supposed to be. Oh, and the Dark Knight disagrees with your assumption that comic book moves are inherently low-brow.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

65. You talking to me?

I saw the Dark Knight. I have not seen the Avengers. I thought it was a TV show I watched in the Sixties when I was a child, which had John Steed and Emma Peel.

I did not say The Dark Knight was low-brow. I said it was pointless, stupid and violent.

A Clockwork Orange is pointless and has stylized violence in it, like dancing, when they rip the woman in red's clothes off to show her breasts. I think it's not the masterpiece some think it is. So they have gang members raping and pillaging and eventually Malcolm McDowell is forced to watch movies to brain wash him. So?

[white_wolf]

68. I was actually replying to the OP in this post, sorry.

[Hippo_Tron]

70. I had some issues with the Dark Knight

And mainly it was due to the fact that I was a huge fan of Batman Begins. My main problem with the Dark Knight was that there wasn't a single reference to Ra's Al Ghul or anything that had happened in Batman Begins. The fact that Wayne ended up having to kill his former mentor had to have a huge impact on him in the long run, and yet we don't see that explored in the least bit. Further more, Ra's Al Ghul wanted to burn the world just like the Joker did. He had ostensibly rational reasons for wanting to do so, which was different, but their objectives were similar.

The formula for doing an ideal first sequel the Empire Strikes back formula. You take the characters you introduced in the first one, raise the stakes quite a bit, and learn new things about these characters by running them through these raised stakes. The Dark Knight raised the stakes, but it was almost a different story. You really could watch it without ever having seen Batman Begins. Thus, all of that development of Bruce Wayne's character in the first movie, couldn't be built on in the second movie.

Now here's the caveat. The Empire Strikes back formula usually leaves for a mediocre third movie, because all that's left is an epic final battle (that everyone knows how it will end) and tying up the loose ends, making the romance come to fruition, etc.

The Dark Knight Rises may find a way to tie these two somewhat separate stories together in a way that reveals quite a bit more to the audience than a third sequel usually does. But if this is just going to be The Dark Knight over again, with some new villains and the cops being against Batman, I'm going to be pretty disappointed.

[sylvi]

64. The Top 50

Well, if you look at the top 50 highest-grossing films of all time, practically every one is fantasy/sci-fi/animation type films. I think perhaps Titanic and The Da Vinci Code may be the exceptions. The medium of cinema just lends itself best to escapist entertainment with the huge screens, booming sound systems and crowd experience, IMHO, though to be sure there have been some really fantastic dramas done for the big screen. If you want something more meaningful you'd be better off pursuing it in indy movies, a book, the opera, a concert or a dramatic stage play.

[Ikonoklast]

69. Agree with you, completely!

That's the problem with the tastes of the Common Folk; they are just so...common.

Not like us, Old Chap!

Pip pip!

[SharonAnn]

71. It's made for teenaged boys. They're a large movie audience.

And they're not very discerning.

Having said that, I was told by teenaged attendees that it was a "really good" movie and that I should go see it.

For what that's worth.

[white_wolf]

72. Most of the audience I saw it with was made up of adults.

Also, neither me nor the person I saw it with are teenage boys. In fact, the person I saw it with is a young woman double majoring in English literature and non-profit management. The only reason I'm pointing that out is to disprove your stereotype, because frankly it's way off the mark.

[Darth_Kitten]

83. Films out of Hollywood do cater to youth.

That's why adults have a hard time deciding on a movie to go to, and then decide to stay home with their dvds and blue-ray.

Classic movie-making, it isn't. The average movie-goer doesn't seem to be too discriminating nowadays.

[FrodosPet]

74. Yes, I am a middle aged teenage boy

I can't wait to see it Tuesday.

When your job involves 8 hours a day of multitasking mental gymnastics, sometimes you just need to turn it off and escape.

[Codeine]

115. My girlfriend loved it. Her daughter loved it. Her toddler loved it.

Even I loved it, and I hate comic book movies most of the time and I despise Marvel characters with very few exceptions.

Joss Whedon made a damned good movie out of a dodgy mix of subject matter, end of story.

[Tabasco_Dave]

76. I bet you won't go out and see this masterpiece

A little junk food is OK once in a while, same with trashy movies but if that's all you watch, then you have a problem.

[Zalatix]

80. Pity that all American movies aren't filmed on or around the Golden Pond.

[Bolo Boffin]

81. $200M domestic opening weekend, $441M foreign = $641M in three days.

It's not just a statement about American culture. This is popular culture. People like what they are given and are given what they like.

[varelse]

89. Think of it as entertainment

a harmless bit of fun and escapism for a few hours. Does that help?

[mathematic]

90. There have been plenty of great comic book movies

Watchmen being the best. If you don't think the Watchmen comic is serious art I don't know how to convince you.

Other goods ones: Superman II, Batman ('89), Blade, A History of Violence. The opening action sequence of X-Men 2 with Nightcrawler infiltrating the oval office was one of the most exciting things I've seen in the movies.

One of the reasons why comics have become so popular as sources for films is that they are essentially storyboards. Storyboards are a tool filmmakers have been using for decades. It's a natural move to start using comics even for non-superhero stories like Scott Pilgrim vs. the World, Whiteout, Red, etc.

This isn't even exclusively an american (or english-language) phenomenon. Japanese manga (comics) are turned into movies by the truckload.

[apnu]

93. Comic books have never been high brow art.

That's your nostalgia talking. Comic books are full of melodrama, improbable story telling, grossly out of proportion human figures and heroic deeds that are utterly unrealistic to the human condition.

I say this and I'm a huge comic fan, my wife used to run a comic shop and I saw the Avengers film and enjoyed it so much I found myself clapping at the end like an idiot.

The Avengers film captured everything that makes comic books appealing to people but with out the distorted human proportions, well except for the Hulk, but then his proportions were to scale with the rest of his body, so in a way, it worked better than most of the Hulk art I've seen.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

106. Reminds me of another piece of pulp literature

"Beowulf". Now required reading in high school and college.

I have no doubt that hundreds of years from now, Superman, Batman and Spider-Man will be as important and highly regarded to the world of literature as the heroes of Homer, of Dumas, and Wilde. People can wring their hands about that all they want, but there is no doubt humans have always been attracted to tales of high fantasy. Frankenstein and Dracula come to mind as well.

[snooper2]

94. So did Jaws do pretty bad ass in 1975, back in your day?

LOL...


Jaws opened with a $7 million weekend[111] and recouped its production costs in two weeks.[112] In just 78 days it overtook The Godfather as the highest-grossing film at the North American box office,[102] sailing past that picture's earnings of $86 million[113] to become the first film to reach $100 million in rentals.[114] Its initial release ultimately brought in $123.1 million in rentals.[112] Theatrical re-releases in 1976 and 1979 brought its total rentals to $133.4 million.[113]

Jaws was the highest-grossing film until Star Wars, which debuted two years later. Star Wars surpassed Jaws for the U.S. record six months after its release and set a new global record in 1978.[122][123]

[MichaelMcGuire]

95. Watched the Avengers last night.

I enjoyed it, the Hulk stole it for me.

[Sea-Dog]

96. What is the difference between America and a yoghurt?

[Zorra]

102. A yogurt

has culture.

[slackmaster]

105. Plain, flavored, or fruit-at-the-bottom?

[Son of Gob]

124. America is spelled right

[Blue_Tires]

97. I'm more pissed that they haven't come up with a good JLA movie yet

piss on all this marvel stuff

But to answer the OP; it's only going to get worse because comic books, tv show/movie/catroon remakes have been the go-to "safe" mega profit earners for 20 years now...Studios love ideas/concepts that already have built-in fanbases who will go see whatever just out of loyalty...

Even if the movie is horrible and you've *only* had the fanboys show up, the worst you can do is break even -- everything else after that is gravy...

[white_wolf]

99. Hell, they can't even make a decent Green Lantern movie.

Forget about JLA for a while. The only decent movie franchise DC has is Nolan's Batman trilogy and, while admittedly, it is much better than anything Marvel has put it out, it ends in the Summer. I'm dreading their reboot.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

110. To do so, they need to follow the Marvel blueprint

First, the individual characters need to be introduced in their own films, or at least like Black Widow, be featured in one of the others.

So there would have to be a Flash or Aquaman or Martian Manhunter movie first......and I just don't see it. Plus this version of Batman would not fit in that kind of movie.

And Green Lantern......so disappointing. My favorite DC character and I almost fell asleep.

[Codeine]

116. Seriously.

Wonder Woman, Supes, Bats, and Green Lantern have it all over the Marvel folks. Why can't they get a decent film (that doesn't involve Batman, anyway) out of the DC Universe while Marvel can turn out blockbuster after blockbuster using lesser source material?

Though it is telling that the only Marvel character I like (Daredevil) did end up being the basis of one of the worst comic book films ever.

[white_wolf]

135. I don't get it either.

I have some hope for the new Superman movie, though. Honestly, though how do you screw up a concept like a Green Lantern movie. DC really needs to get their act together and find the right people to bring these characters to life. I mean, if Nolan can redeem Batman from the abomination that is Batman & Robin, then there is someone who can redeem Green Lantern.

[LanternWaste]

98. So you'll watch it-- but at home. You then are part and parcel of the lowest common denominator?

"I know that when and if I watch the Avengers, it will be on DVD, at home, preferably rented out from the one buck selection..."
We may then presume that you also enjoy films targeting the lowest common denominator, simply not in public-- but in the privacy of your own home-- that being a relevant and critical difference?

Additionally, you will of course, enlighten us to a specific five or ten year span in which Hollywood did indeed target the art-house connoisseur, and provide us with the concomitant top grossing films of that period to better compare and contrast the high-brow films of yesteryear that you did indeed watch to the films of the here and now that you have not yet watched, yes?

[white_wolf]

100. I have to say the elitism on display here is kind of sickening.

People enjoying comic book movies is not a sign of the collapse of the US. I swear, this country elected Bush twice and you think them enjoying comic book movies is a problem? Get off your high horse, arrogance is unbecoming in anyone.

[ceile]

101. What evs. The movie rocked.

I'm probably going to go see it again this week.
Question for you though: what exactly is "highbrow art"? And when was the last time you saw a movie and thought "wow that was highbrow art"?

[Occulus]

103. I can answer your last question.

No Country for Old Men.

Instant classic.

[ceile]

133. Agreed.

Wonderful film.

[slackmaster]

104. You sound more like a New Puritan to me than an old, crotchety man

You kids think you can learn old, crotchety man talk by studying it on the Internet. In my day, you had to EARN the privilege of speaking like an old, crotchety man!

[dionysus]

107. ..and get off my lawn...

this does explain a lot...

[bemildred]

109. "Team America, World Police"

http://www.google.com/search?q=team+america+world+police&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=IfmnT463OcSIiALR0tHEAg&ved=0CHQQsAQ&biw=1488&bih=855

[Initech]

111. As much as I want to see The Avengers, screw it - T-minus two months until The Dark Knight Rises!

[Capt. Obvious]

113. I finally saw Green Lantern this weekend

Absolutely awful. Putrid. Wretched. How the fuck was that movie made?

[Codeine]

117. In short, you start by casting Van Wilder and you go downhill from there.

It took serious and concerted effort to get a film THAT awful out of a mythos as vast, dramatic, and compelling as that of the Green Lantern Corps.

[ScreamingMeemie]

119. You don't sound like a crotchety old man. You sound like a snob. Trying to get others

to think like you think. Sorry but I watch movies for fun, when I drink beer I drink cheap stuff because it tastes exactly the same (crappy) as the high brow stuff, I tend not to read the books that others tell me I "have" to. I hardly think America is suffering culturally because of a movie.

[Codeine]

122. Joss Whedon made a damned good film.

It's clever, fun, and witty. The fact that it's based on comic books is immaterial.

[Zorra]

123. The times they are a changin'.

Kids grow up with video games and a wide array of other forms of clever electronic visual stimulation, and I suspect the majority of kids don't do as much reading as kids did in the past.

These comic book movies often have very cool special visual effects, and I have actually seen a few that have pretty cool heavy duty messages delivered through plots rooted in fantasy.

IMO, American society has become much more visually oriented in the last 25 years, and continues to move that way.

That said, do you know the best way to keep these kids off my lawn?

[Reader Rabbit]

125. The Hero with a Thousand Faces

Humans have been telling stories about heroes overcoming bad guys for thousands of years. Movies are the newest incarnation of this tradition. It's not going away any time soon.

[just1voice]

127. Don't watch the Grammys, they're even worse

Huge corporations selling their junk with an occasional talent showing up. I think it's more of a statement about corporate-sponsored art than our entire society.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

128. "America is the first country to have gone from barbarism to decadence without the usual intervening

"America is the first country to have gone from barbarism to decadence without the usual intervening period of civilization." -  Oscar Wilde

[HangOnKids]

129. Amen!

Oscar got it right so many times.

[NoPasaran]

163. Nothing elitist about him either

A regular down-to-earth working joe.

[Rex]

130. You are falsely equating 'high brow art' with high ticket sales.

Just because something is culturally enlightening, doesn't mean it is popular or will get rave reviews.

[nachosgrande]

131. LOL...Populist entertainment has never been highbrow

Ever heard of the Three Stooges?

[Nye Bevan]

134. YES. I bet hardly any of these people saw "The English Patient". (nt)

[Logical]

168. Bad bet. I love art films. And The Artist was my favorite last year! The movie was fun!

[cherokeeprogressive]

176. I saw part of it...

Changed the channel.

[Jennicut]

137. Someone doesn't like comic books. As a child of the 80's, I loved Iron Man, Thor and The Avengers.

And Spiderman, of course. And I was a girl that was into comic books. The Avengers/West Coast Avengers featured female superheros as well and I loved it. It opened up a world of imagination and got me into reading sci/fi novels as a teen.

Perhaps this movie was made for us? You know, the kids that saw Star Wars and grew up with action figures and Saturday morning comic book hero cartoons. At the movie theater I went to yesterday, the audience was primarily people in their late 20's/30's with young children. I took my daughters to it and they loved it.

Also, comic books go back years. The first one was in 1933. That people want to make movies from them is hardly strange.

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. I guess I am shallow

We're watching it tomorrow.



And probably you've missed the attacks on comics by the right wing over the years, including congressional hearings.



There has to be a reason for this RW fear, doncha think?

[white_wolf]

139. They actually had congressonal hearings over comic books?

Seriously, were they unable to find anything more important to do? I swear it makes our current Congress seem almost sane.

[zappaman]

140. yes....in 1954. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

141. 1950s. Comics were seen as a great threat to

the morality of the US, and it's youth.

It was the equivalent of modern day video games.

Think about it, replace black for x-men, for example, and it will make sense.

[Codeine]

147. Yep. The publishers adopted the Comics Code to self-censor their content.

The return of the superhero comic book in the late fifties had a lot to do with other themes (horror, crime, romance) being shut down or neutered by the restrictions of the Code.

[Marr]

169. There was an excellent book on the subject a couple of years ago.

Ten Cent Plague.

[Jennicut]

142. Stan Lee is also by no means a conservative.

He is actually considered quite the liberal. Comic books are not "low brow" nor are movies made from them. They were entertainment for children. My brother and I used to spend all of our allowance on comic books. My brother still has his saved from the mid to late 80's and my older daughter reads them now.

[nadinbrzezinski]

143. I know, and the themes in comics are not shallow by far.

[white_wolf]

145. Seriously, read Killing Joke and tell me it's shallow.

I found it to be very dark and rather disturbing actually. I wouldn't let my child read in until they were at least 14 or so and willing to have a long discussion about some of the issues it raised, especially the treatment of Barbra Gordan.

[white_wolf]

144. I'm not even sure they are for children anymore.

I've heard the mean age of your normal comic book reader is mid 30s, and honestly I'm not sure I'd let a little kid read a lot of current comics. For instance, Snyder's Batman run is kind of dark. Not horribly so, but I'm not sure a young kid would enjoy it. I certainly wouldn't let a young child read the Killing Joke.

[Codeine]

146. One of the industry's big problems

is that most titles are written for men in their thirties and forties, who are the only people who can be counted upon to regularly purchase and collect them. Kid-friendly titles, both from a thematic (violence and sexuality) point of view and from a comprehension point of view are far less common.

This means that new blood doesn't enter the hobby at the rate needed to ensure a healthy future for comic books.

[white_wolf]

148. Of course, that means they aren't bringing in new readers...

I don't see why they can't cater to both. Have some people work on more kid-friendly titles and have some people work on their current more adult-oriented books. They need to bring in new readers, and the best way to do that is start young. DC's relaunch showed that it's very hard to bring in new readers in their 20s and 30s. I wonder if Marvel's success with movies isn't going to help them with that, though. Maybe they will attract new readers who enjoyed the movies, I'm not sure, but I think they need to do something.

[Codeine]

150. I'm doing my part.

My kids get two comics a week, each. Just about every kid-oriented title finds its way into our home eventually. Adventure Time and Tiny Titans (sadly, just cancelled) are particular favorites of our seven year old daughter. And they both had a ball at Saturday's Free Comic Book Day festivities.

The main difference is that when I was seven I could have picked up a mainstream Bat-title and would have been able to read and understand the story (no over-reliance on years of accumulated continuity) and my mom wouldn't have been freaked by Batman screwing Catwoman or whatever. There need to be mainstream titles that can work for adults and for kids, not merely one or the other.

[white_wolf]

153. Good point.

If I was 7 and my mom saw me reading the first issue of Daniel's run on Detective Comic, she would have taken it away because of how violent it was. The current run of Nightwing had a scene with Dick in bed with a woman, nothing was shown of course, but I could understand how some parents might view that as inappropriate for a younger child. They aren't doing very good at broadening their audience.

[Jennicut]

172. Yeah, I guess I fit that profile.

I am 36 . I have gotten my daughters more interested in the mainstream comic characters, the ones I was interested in as a kid: Iron Man, Spiderman, etc. But I won't let them even see the current Batman or read it. It is too dark.

[white_wolf]

182. I, personally, love the current run of Batman...

but I agree it is too dark for kids.

[Vanje]

149. When times are hard ,

people seek to immerse themselves in an hour or so of pure escapism.

[4th law of robotics]

151. A movie about a comic book is what depresses you?

Not the endless reality tv shows portraying (supposedly real) people acting like complete idiots?

[white_wolf]

154. I'm half convinved those are scripted.

I can't believe so many people are that stupid.

[4th law of robotics]

156. I'm on the fence on that one

on the one hand, yeah pretty amazingly stupid, can't be real right?

Then on the other hand I go out and bump in to various people and start to believe it.

At the very least I'd say being that stupid *is* possible, although the actual actors involved aren't necessarily that stupid.

[zappaman]

158. Ahhhh....they are all scripted

At the very least, the people are given "suggestions" or are put into manufactured situations to get a reaction.
I work in this business, and I can tell you this is true.
Watching take after take of a reality "star" walking into a bar until she gives the best reaction is pitiful.

[Codeine]

157. Gilgamesh was a superhero.

Achilles too. The Greek and Norse gods (so much so that one of those dudes IS an Avenger) are superheroes as well.

What the hell is wrong with superheroes?

[4th law of robotics]

160. "What the hell is wrong with superheroes?"

I think the gist of this is there isn't anything wrong with superheroes per se, just American ones.

[white_wolf]

161. What's wrong with American ones?

[4th law of robotics]

164. They're low brow

French superhero movies (especially ones with subtitles, gush!) would be highbrow.

/not my argument, just what I'm getting from this OP.

[Codeine]

186. French Superheroes would just smoke aggressively at the villain

before walking off in an existential huff.


Actual French superhero

[4th law of robotics]

187. Ennui-man!

He would save the day but what's the point? We all live pointless lives and die alone.

[white_wolf]

159. So, OP, what about Star Wars?

It won 6 Academy Awards and yet Jedi are just as impossible as Iron Man.

[GaYellowDawg]

162. That screams SNOB to me.

If a whole lot of people watch a movie, and in the process, enjoy themselves without hurting anyone, why should that bother you? And by the way, I have a PhD. I have a considerable collection of classical music, because I played the piano - Chopin and Debussy being my favorites - and I've sung classical tenor (enough to know that I prefer singing the Bach-Gounod Ave Maria at weddings to Schubert). I am quite far from "the lowest common denominator," and I enjoyed the Avengers movie. Perhaps you ought to just unclench a little.

[Great Caesars Ghost]

166. Nope, will not go and see it.

Reason:

"I have a really interesting political point of view, and it’s not always something I say too loud at dinner tables here, but you can’t go from a $2,000-a-night suite at La Mirage to a penitentiary and really understand it and come out a liberal. You can’t. I wouldn’t wish that experience on anyone else, but it was very, very, very educational for me and has informed my proclivities and politics every since."

- Robert Downey Jr.
New York Times interview

[Logical]

167. Yes, you sounds like an old crotchety man! How is a pro baseball game any better? Or a reality show?

[randome]

173. Pro baseball.

A bunch of millionaires running around in their pajamas. Talk about low-brow entertainment!

[cherokeeprogressive]

178. 50 MILLION kids (boy and girl) playing Little League at any given time...

750 of those kids play in Major Leage Baseball every season.

Talk about the cream of the crop.

I'd make a deal with the devil to wear Dodger home pajamas and play shortstop.

[a la izquierda]

171. I was in Mexico a couple years back...

and I went and saw this movie called Rudo y Cursi. Friggin' hilarious. Totally low-brow humor. And I loved it.

I have a PhD in history. I'm generally a pretty intense person (my husband would say humorless). But I love potty humor movies. Why, you might ask? Because my life is full of monumentally depressing subject matter, I'm under constant stress, and the world around all of us has gone insane. One and a half hours of trifling movies is what many of us need to forget about our problems.
I haven't seen Avengers and likely won't, but I will go see Sacha Baron Cohen's new flick this week (and I'm sure many on DU will hate me for it, but again, it's terrible comedy).

[Canuckistanian]

177. I don't know

Comic book literature is sometimes pretty good. And it's popular around the world. I know, that isn't a ringing endorsement, artistically.

But comics are a sophisticated art now, sometimes works are called "graphic novels" and I think it's a good description.

And besides, in the world of Science Fiction, comics were a great inspiration (and vice versa).

Unless you think science fiction is crap, too.

[fishwax]

180. I don't see what the sad statement on American culture is

I don't really have a problem with lowbrow culture anyway, but there's no reason that comic books are inherently lowbrow or designed for the lowest common denominator, and there is no reason a film based on one can't achieve the quality of a film based on any other source.

[guardian]

184. curmudgeon alert!

Just because one can appreciate Chateaubriand with Bearnaise Sauce paired with nice wine doesn't mean that one can't still enjoy a hot dog and a bag of Cheetos. Same goes for movies.