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Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:10 PM May 2012

How do YOU think Hillary will react to the Greek election results?

We know she's an austerity absolutist who cares nothing about the workers or the poor. We saw that, in the Honduran situation(and her abetting of the restoration of the Creole upper-class fascists to absolute power in Haiti), that she was just fine with bloodsoaked right-wing coups.

And she CAN'T be happy that the Greek people have defied the financial oligarchs and the power of the almighty Merkel.

Do folks here think she can be trusted NOT to do a repeat of the Johnson Administration 1967 policy towards Greece(the policy that was illustrated by LBJ grabbing the Greek ambassador by the shoulders and screaming "The U.S. is an elephant and Greece is a flea!&quot if the Left continues to grow in Greece and the imposition of austerity is subjected to serious challenge?

And do you think that, if she pushes for letting the Greek colonels seize power again, our C-in-C will stop her?

Will Hillary, in short, get in touch with her inner Dean Rusk in terms of dealing with Greece and the rise of democracy there?

These are natural questions on such a day as this.


127 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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How do YOU think Hillary will react to the Greek election results? (Original Post) Ken Burch May 2012 OP
She will respond however Obama wants her to respond Autumn May 2012 #1
You're sure about that? Ken Burch May 2012 #3
yes maddezmom May 2012 #6
no rouge? HiPointDem May 2012 #52
yes maddezmom May 2012 #62
dunno, looks like she's wearing some in this snap: HiPointDem May 2012 #66
Of course I'm sure of it. Autumn May 2012 #14
Oh, you know. The all-powerful Hillary DevonRex May 2012 #16
Look at how Honduras and Haiti played out. Ken Burch May 2012 #19
I doubt President Obama is so weak-willed he allowed Clinton to lead him around obamanut2012 May 2012 #46
You have that right Autumn May 2012 #20
It makes me blush. Or is that marybourg May 2012 #65
i'm waiting for Bea to come in guns blazing on this one.... dionysus May 2012 #108
So am I. And I'd back her up 100% too. DevonRex May 2012 #109
Of course, Hillary Clinton is a loyalist to Obama obamanut2012 May 2012 #44
You left out the murder of Vince Foster... cthulu2016 May 2012 #2
I never thought she did that and I hate all the rw anti-HRC stuff. Ken Burch May 2012 #4
LOL DURHAM D May 2012 #10
You're laughing at the truth. Ken Burch May 2012 #18
Double LOL FSogol May 2012 #121
This message was self-deleted by its author sharp_stick May 2012 #5
What bullshit? Ken Burch May 2012 #9
I think our neoliberals will just ignore any European backlash against austerity. girl gone mad May 2012 #7
This is the right answer, imo. nt EFerrari May 2012 #51
Is this a joke that I'm not getting? DevonRex May 2012 #8
just your daily anti-dem campaigning, is all.... dionysus May 2012 #107
I swear I feel like I'm back in 2008 suddenly. DevonRex May 2012 #110
Does this comic book of yours come with drawings? jberryhill May 2012 #11
You'd have said the same thing in a discussion about Dean Rusk and LBJ in '67. Ken Burch May 2012 #24
LOL. This is absolutely absurd fantasy RZM May 2012 #12
You're assuming she won't shape that line. Ken Burch May 2012 #21
Holy Shit! cynatnite May 2012 #13
No, that's the implant Hillary put there back during the last DevonRex May 2012 #15
Holy shit dude. Starry Messenger May 2012 #17
Remember Haiti and Honduras Ken Burch May 2012 #26
I'm not excusing anything, but those countries are in our hemisphere. Starry Messenger May 2012 #28
These are *not* natural questions on a day such as this. Ikonoklast May 2012 #22
Remember Haiti and Honduras Ken Burch May 2012 #23
Yes, it would have obamanut2012 May 2012 #49
My point was the values WalMart represents, I wasn't saying it controls foreign policy Ken Burch May 2012 #56
Perhaps you need to read about her tenure on the Board obamanut2012 May 2012 #61
Oh, you thought so, too? aquart May 2012 #81
Better question would be how will the Obama administration react? maddezmom May 2012 #25
On foreign policy, to a large degree, yes. Ken Burch May 2012 #27
so you are calling Obama a puppet maddezmom May 2012 #29
This is some DevonRex May 2012 #30
It's just that I think I understand how power works. Ken Burch May 2012 #36
If Obama isn't free to "call the tune" on foreign policy, then who does? obamanut2012 May 2012 #53
None of the above. bvar22 May 2012 #115
What forces, Ken? Starry Messenger May 2012 #54
The Pentagon, big finance, corporate power Ken Burch May 2012 #57
That was during the Cold War. Starry Messenger May 2012 #60
Mayhaps the shadowy and elusive Hilderberg Group?! obamanut2012 May 2012 #58
OMG. Starry Messenger May 2012 #59
Pffft. Everyone knows it is the Hilluminati that hold the *real* power. Ikonoklast May 2012 #92
I think you are getting the Hilluminati confused with the Hassan Hil Sabbah Starry Messenger May 2012 #95
As if you've ever been invited to one of their gatherings. Ikonoklast May 2012 #97
Dark Forces jberryhill May 2012 #64
And a woman is the "larger force"? A WOMAN? IN AMERICA? aquart May 2012 #83
This has NOTHING to do with gender. HRC's gender is totally irrelevant to me and you know it. Ken Burch May 2012 #85
Hillary didn't leave the primary early tammywammy May 2012 #31
I amended it to "the race", not the primaries. My apologies on that point. Ken Burch May 2012 #33
You are right on, Ken. Webster Green May 2012 #35
I expected the response Ken Burch May 2012 #40
and sometimes a banana is just a.... banana cali May 2012 #93
Then she has been failing miserably at 'maintaining the status quo, forever', then. Ikonoklast May 2012 #55
Wow. Hillary dropped out of the 2008 primary in exchange for total control of US foreign policy?... SidDithers May 2012 #125
have they really defied the oligarchs and germany, though? BOG PERSON May 2012 #32
SYRIZA is staunchly anti-austerity. Ken Burch May 2012 #34
i know they're anti-austerity BOG PERSON May 2012 #98
Just a small correction nadinbrzezinski May 2012 #37
That, too. Ken Burch May 2012 #41
Nothing. She knows the election changes nothing. hack89 May 2012 #38
Actually, it opens many possibilities for change. Ken Burch May 2012 #42
Those new and creative alternatives had better fit within the global economy and financial markets hack89 May 2012 #47
A pro-austerity party can do neither Ken Burch May 2012 #48
Not sure what you think money is. girl gone mad May 2012 #79
I know that spending more money than you have is a bad thing. hack89 May 2012 #94
spending more money than you have is the main way individuals expand their assets. HiPointDem May 2012 #103
But when your bills get so large that they consume a large and growing portion of your income hack89 May 2012 #106
spending on social benefits has a direct impact on the economy. so not sure what you're HiPointDem May 2012 #111
But if government tax receipts do not increase to cover those loan payments hack89 May 2012 #112
"LESS Regulation".... bvar22 May 2012 #116
Ok - do you at least accept the need for less corruption and tax reform? nt hack89 May 2012 #117
Are you missing a marble? Ruby the Liberal May 2012 #39
I was just getting out my DevonRex May 2012 #43
Okay - I'll hang onto it for now. Ruby the Liberal May 2012 #50
CALL CONGRESS RIGHT FUCKING NOW!!!!! Lil Missy May 2012 #45
And alert Hugh Series while you're at it!!!1! Chorophyll May 2012 #124
She will go to her Fortress of Solitude jberryhill May 2012 #63
Bwa-ha-ha. Nominating for a DUZY - n/t coalition_unwilling May 2012 #73
And do you think the US should directly grant funds for Greek benefits? dkf May 2012 #67
I think the U.S. should make sure that U.S.-owned companies doing business in Greece Ken Burch May 2012 #68
But GREECE is the FLEA!! Who cares if someone looks delusional to them! Zalatix May 2012 #71
One of the most frugal benefit systems in the EU? Can you back that up? dkf May 2012 #72
Here's one measure, from the FAIR website: Ken Burch May 2012 #74
The Greek social safety net is very modest by European standards. girl gone mad May 2012 #80
Greece's generous pensions What makes Germans so very cross about Greece? dkf May 2012 #84
On a progressive website, you cite "The Economist"? Ken Burch May 2012 #87
This is what came up when I googled for Greek vs German pensions. dkf May 2012 #89
All that tells us is that Greece pays somewhat more for pensions than Germany Ken Burch May 2012 #127
Even from a neoliberal magazine.. girl gone mad May 2012 #91
I wish I could do a 'DUrec' for this comment! I'm 100% on board! LongTomH May 2012 #118
I think that Hillary and Bill will call their broker and pronto! JDPriestly May 2012 #69
That, too. Of course. Ken Burch May 2012 #70
Christ, she's still trying to wash the blood off her hands from 1,000,000+ coalition_unwilling May 2012 #75
Assuming she's the monster you think she is kenny blankenship May 2012 #76
Seriously this is a pancake on rabbit type of question RFKHumphreyObama May 2012 #77
What the hell is a "pancake on rabbit type of question"? Ken Burch May 2012 #78
See: muriel_volestrangler May 2012 #88
Be careful DonCoquixote May 2012 #82
That has become pretty obvious in this thread by now. Ken Burch May 2012 #86
if Hillary says/does that then it will probably be because it's Obama's policy CreekDog May 2012 #102
She will unleash the Kraken NoPasaran May 2012 #90
Quickly now - get an email off to President Obama. DURHAM D May 2012 #96
You left out Colombia Oilwellian May 2012 #99
... progressoid May 2012 #100
Maybe re-invade Grenada. Mc Mike May 2012 #101
Care to explain Chicago "boy" shock doctrine? nt DevonRex May 2012 #104
Naomi Klein's '07 book. P. 61 on Milton Friedman. Mc Mike May 2012 #114
Ken: you may be right, you may not be. But I'm not ridiculing you. DisgustipatedinCA May 2012 #105
Thanks for the thoughtful post. Ken Burch May 2012 #126
I was hoping this would be a Text From Hillary Capt. Obvious May 2012 #113
Me too. I love those badass sunglasses. nt Chorophyll May 2012 #123
Hillary WILL support the interests of the IMF and the Global Banks. bvar22 May 2012 #119
What ever it turns out to be juice feast May 2012 #120
She'll carry out the orders given to her by her boss, the President of the United States. Arkana May 2012 #122

Autumn

(44,743 posts)
1. She will respond however Obama wants her to respond
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:14 PM
May 2012

She works in Obamas administration and will NOT go rouge on him.

Autumn

(44,743 posts)
14. Of course I'm sure of it.
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:25 PM
May 2012

Are you saying obama would let her push him around ? Cause I'm positive he won't do that either.

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
16. Oh, you know. The all-powerful Hillary
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:29 PM
May 2012

just runs roughshod over the entire world.

This is one of the most bizarre OPs I've read in ages on DU.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
19. Look at how Honduras and Haiti played out.
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:31 PM
May 2012

She's the one who pushed for the hardline solution in both places.

She really needs to be fired, now. There's no good reason to keep her there at all. She could have been Bush's Secretary-of-state.

obamanut2012

(25,905 posts)
46. I doubt President Obama is so weak-willed he allowed Clinton to lead him around
Sun May 6, 2012, 10:51 PM
May 2012

He is the President, and she is his SOS. They have worked extremely well together, even when I don't agree with some of the decisions made by the Administration.

I also doubt one of Bush's SOSs would have said what she has about women's and LGBT's rights.

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
109. So am I. And I'd back her up 100% too.
Mon May 7, 2012, 04:57 PM
May 2012

I'm tempted to PM her. Have you got a good banky ready? She's gonna need one after reading this thread. Maybe even 2.

obamanut2012

(25,905 posts)
44. Of course, Hillary Clinton is a loyalist to Obama
Sun May 6, 2012, 10:49 PM
May 2012

And serves our President well as his SOS. She is not a loose cannon.

I also think they are pretty much on the same footing on many issues, which is just one reason why she has been an effective SOS for this Administration.

I don't understand what SOS Clinton has done the last almost-four years to have her loyalty to Obama questioned?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
4. I never thought she did that and I hate all the rw anti-HRC stuff.
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:16 PM
May 2012

Vince Foster was a suicide and the Republican smears on that were reprehensible.

This is totally different from that.

HRC has always been the most right-wing force in the administration...and the least pro-democracy. That's what being a "pro-business Democrat" means, for God's sake.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
18. You're laughing at the truth.
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:29 PM
May 2012

being "pro-business" means being pro-austerity and anti-social justice.
And we saw what being "pro-business" meant in Haiti and Honduras, as well.

You CAN'T be ok with all of that.

Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
9. What bullshit?
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:19 PM
May 2012

Look at Honduras and Haiti. Look at HRC's involvement in Walmart and her unquestioning support for every "free trade" deal.

It's not possible to be on the wrong side of all of the above and still be progressive on anything else.

You can't be a hawk with a conscience.

girl gone mad

(20,634 posts)
7. I think our neoliberals will just ignore any European backlash against austerity.
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:19 PM
May 2012

Our oligarchs have invested heavily in puppet politicians. They want the cuts, the privatizations and the financialization to continue apace.

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
110. I swear I feel like I'm back in 2008 suddenly.
Mon May 7, 2012, 04:59 PM
May 2012

All we're missing is puppet guy. Never can remember his name. I think my mind is protecting itself from remembering it, truthfully. Nightmares, you know. Hideous nightmares.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
24. You'd have said the same thing in a discussion about Dean Rusk and LBJ in '67.
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:40 PM
May 2012

We need people running our foreign policy who have completely abandoned the "we're the elephant-you're the flea" approach to dealing with other countries.

 

RZM

(8,556 posts)
12. LOL. This is absolutely absurd fantasy
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:22 PM
May 2012

All you're really saying here is:

1) There was a military coup in Greece in 1967
2) I don't like Hillary Clinton

Problem is, those two things really aren't connected. She will toe the administration's line, whatever that might be (probably rote, detached statements about how we must 'respect the will of the Greek people').

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
21. You're assuming she won't shape that line.
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:36 PM
May 2012

And there's a direct connection between those two events. The first happened with the U.S. had an adminstration that presented itself as "liberal, but tough&quot which is the model HRC has pushed hardest for). She represents the lineal descent of the LBJ-Dean Rusk-Scoop Jackson foreign policy "tradition&quot a tradition that brought nothing but misery to the world, with its obsession with a foreign "menace" that didn't really exist).

Understand history. Understand HRC's world view. This situation, like Haiti and Honduras, and her championing of austerity-at-all-costs(even the women and children she pretends to fight for) is something we need to be very, very watchful about.

That's all I'm saying.

That and, if HRC was fired tomorrow and replaced by a progressive at a recess appointment, we'd lose nothing that wasn't worth losing.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
26. Remember Haiti and Honduras
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:43 PM
May 2012

Remember who was the main architect of what we did and what we abetted in both countries. We should have had a progressive as SoS...not Dean Rusk, the Next Generation.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
28. I'm not excusing anything, but those countries are in our hemisphere.
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:45 PM
May 2012

Obama and Hillary will probably watch to see what coalition government will form in Greece, maybe send a fruitbasket.

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
22. These are *not* natural questions on a day such as this.
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:38 PM
May 2012

They are bat-shit loony-tune insane questions.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
23. Remember Haiti and Honduras
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:39 PM
May 2012

Remember what she helped cause there.

Would that have happened in an Obama Adminstration that did not have her as SoS?

You can never trust the loyalties of anyone who'd sit on the board of WalMart.

obamanut2012

(25,905 posts)
49. Yes, it would have
Sun May 6, 2012, 11:00 PM
May 2012

And I noticed you didn't mention she used her time on the board of Wal-Mart, when she was First Lady of Arkansas, to pressure WM to hire more women and other minorities, to increase the number of female managers, and to keep manufacturing jobs in the US.

I also don't know WTF Wal-Mart has to do with what is happening in Greece. Even the Walton family doesn't have that much power.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
56. My point was the values WalMart represents, I wasn't saying it controls foreign policy
Sun May 6, 2012, 11:29 PM
May 2012

Obviously it would be silly to think that.

But the values WalMart represents...short-term profit at ANY human cost...are the opposite of all progressive values.

maddezmom

(135,060 posts)
25. Better question would be how will the Obama administration react?
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:42 PM
May 2012

since Hillary works for it. Not sure why you think Obama is a puppet of Hillary. Do you think she is running this adminstration? Really strange OP, imo.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
27. On foreign policy, to a large degree, yes.
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:44 PM
May 2012

The foreign policy we've had is largely the one SHE ran on in the primaries...a policy of maintaining the status quo, forever.

It would be naive to assume that she wasn't given a guarantee of total control of foreign policy, or something close to it, in exchange for finally getting out of the race.

That's the only explanation for Haiti and Honduras.

maddezmom

(135,060 posts)
29. so you are calling Obama a puppet
Sun May 6, 2012, 09:56 PM
May 2012


And I find it interesting you say it's naive to assume.....and yet that is what you are doing here. You have a low opinion of both Obama and Clinton that much is clear and no, I'm not assuming here.
 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
36. It's just that I think I understand how power works.
Sun May 6, 2012, 10:26 PM
May 2012

It's not a simple question of the president leading and everyone else following. Presidents are often at the mercy of larger forces behind the scenes. Look at the ways, for example, that JFK, even if we could be sure he wanted to pull out of Vietnam early, was being blocked from doing so by other forces in the government.

It's not exactly that Obama's a puppet...it's just that he isn't always free do call the tune. We need to change several of the major players in the administration in order for the president to truly be in charge of it.

obamanut2012

(25,905 posts)
53. If Obama isn't free to "call the tune" on foreign policy, then who does?
Sun May 6, 2012, 11:10 PM
May 2012

Hillary?

You think Hillary Clinton, or/and her husband, have that much power?



bvar22

(39,909 posts)
115. None of the above.
Tue May 8, 2012, 11:46 AM
May 2012

Foreign Policy is above their pay grade.
Sure, they are allowed to put whatever pretty face they want on it,
but the nuts and bolts of our "Foreign Policy" hasn't changed for over 50 years whether it was the conservative Republicans or conservative Democrats holding the White House and majorities in Congress.

*We WILL grab WHAT we can WHEN we can,
not FOR the American People who WILL pay for it,
but FOR the Global Corporations and the 1%.
SEE: Iraq and the "Oil Law".
SEE: Libya and the IMF

*We WILL support the forces of International Predatory (Disaster) Capitalism,
even if it means financing Dictators and Death Squads.

*Our military is at the disposal of the G-8, WTO, and the IMF.
Bad stuff will happen to anyone who says "NO" to the IMF.

*We WILL support, arm, and finance Israel
no matter WHAT the cost and no matter WHAT the government of Israel does.

Hillary, Bush, Obama, Bolton, Reagan, Rice, Powell .... it just doesn't matter.
Some things do NOT change, even when the White House does.

Hillary WILL support the interests of the IMF and the Global Banks.
They OWN our government no matter WHO we vote for.
....but she will make a good show of feeling the pain in front of the TV Cameras,
as will President Obama.
That is the difference between the Republicans and the Democrats on Foreign Policy.
The Democrats make SURE that the World sees them feeling the pain as they drop the hammer.



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
57. The Pentagon, big finance, corporate power
Sun May 6, 2012, 11:30 PM
May 2012

The forces that kept us in Vietnam when most of the country and almost all of the freaking world were begging our leaders to get out.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
60. That was during the Cold War.
Sun May 6, 2012, 11:34 PM
May 2012

The geo-political forces are in a different place today. Yes, the military/industrial complex and imperialism in general exert pressure on the government. But making Hillary Clinton some kind of shadow force where all of these forces congeal is quite out there, friend.

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
92. Pffft. Everyone knows it is the Hilluminati that hold the *real* power.
Mon May 7, 2012, 07:33 AM
May 2012

The Hilderbergers are nothing but a buncha wannabes.

Oh, they get to wear a neat special hats at their meetings and have a nifty secret handshake and all, but the Hilluminati own a fortress built on top of an extinct volcano somewhere in the Andes.

Now, that is freakin' cool.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
95. I think you are getting the Hilluminati confused with the Hassan Hil Sabbah
Mon May 7, 2012, 08:58 AM
May 2012

*They* have a fortress up in the Andes. The Hilluminati have a severe looking marble building in Zurich for their secret meetings, and the leader keeps a pet ring-tail lemur on a rhinestone lead. It's easy to get them confused though.

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
97. As if you've ever been invited to one of their gatherings.
Mon May 7, 2012, 09:10 AM
May 2012

My cousin's brother-in-law's dentist babysitter's aunt just happens to be a made member of the Hilluminati, and she says that those jerks in Zurich are nothing but a bunch of poserettes, and that 'severe looking building' is nothing but a Swiss Cheese shop.

You know they take selling that stuff really seriously.

I mean, armed guards and a moat for some Swiss Cheese?




She showed me her membership tattoo, once, at her nephew's Bar Mitzvah.

She gets really silly when she drinks the bubbly.








I'd like to see it again one day.

(sigh)

aquart

(69,014 posts)
83. And a woman is the "larger force"? A WOMAN? IN AMERICA?
Mon May 7, 2012, 04:38 AM
May 2012

Wow. Hillary as koro.

Koro (sic) is a mythical disease in which the penis shrinks back into the body. It is widely feared in certain nations. By men.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
85. This has NOTHING to do with gender. HRC's gender is totally irrelevant to me and you know it.
Mon May 7, 2012, 05:52 AM
May 2012

Does anybody here seriously think that I'd be OK with everything that the U.S. has done in the world since 2009, if only our SoS were MALE? Why does anybody think this has anything to do with HRC's genitalia at all?

The true absurdity here is that some folks have been convinced that militarism and an obsession with forcing the entire world into "free trade" agreements are progressive or even feminist things, just because the person in charge of our foreign policy is a woman.

And the REAL problem with HRC is that her approach to the world hasn't been particularly feminist...if it were truly feminist, it would be egalitarian, anti-corporate, and anti-militarist. War is pretty much ALWAYS the worst possible thing that can happen to the women and children of the world...and so are globalization and austerity. She's cherrypicked a tiny handful of "women's issues" to talk about, focusing exclusively on those that the financial and political elite don't find threatening to their power.

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
31. Hillary didn't leave the primary early
Sun May 6, 2012, 10:01 PM
May 2012

She was in until the primaries were completely over. She didn't conceded until June 7.

edited to add: Hillary works for Obama and represents his administration. The policy towards Haiti and Honduras is that of the Obama administration. Hillary can give her input, but the ultimate decision on the actions in foreign policy is Obama's.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
33. I amended it to "the race", not the primaries. My apologies on that point.
Sun May 6, 2012, 10:19 PM
May 2012

Still, HRC HAD planned on going all the way to the convention and trying to strip Obama of the nomination...she might well have done that, even though doing so would have to have consigned the party to defeat.

A lot of her followers(the ones who couldn't accept that a black man had the right to come out ahead of her)were pushing for her to go on. They were mainly interested in being wreckers and she indulged that faction right up until June 7th.

Webster Green

(13,905 posts)
35. You are right on, Ken.
Sun May 6, 2012, 10:26 PM
May 2012

I don't know how folks can ignore Haiti and Honduras. I've been so pissed for so long.

Thanks for posting about it, in face of the ridicule you get from people who obviously haven't really paying attention.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
40. I expected the response
Sun May 6, 2012, 10:36 PM
May 2012

When you get that kind of ridicule, it means you've challenged people and pushed them outside of their comfort zone. Sometimes, in doing that, you can eventually get through to people. But to do that, you have to take the risk of making them mock you out of their own fear.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
93. and sometimes a banana is just a.... banana
Mon May 7, 2012, 07:45 AM
May 2012

sometimes people simply ridicule something because they think it's ridiculous.

I'm not opining on the validity of your op but this "argument" you posed in post 40 is one I see much too much of. And largely, it's garbage.

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
55. Then she has been failing miserably at 'maintaining the status quo, forever', then.
Sun May 6, 2012, 11:24 PM
May 2012

Things have changed dramatically on the world stage since Clinton became the SoS.

See: Arab Spring.

Exact opposite of status quo.

It would be naive to assume that SoS Clinton doesn't do one thing without the direct consultation of this president, because there is exactly *zero* evidence to the contrary.

Unless Hillary has a secret army that we don't know about and is making plans to invade Greece, you are just ranting about nonsense.



SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
125. Wow. Hillary dropped out of the 2008 primary in exchange for total control of US foreign policy?...
Tue May 8, 2012, 01:21 PM
May 2012

Did you really just state that?

Sid

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
34. SYRIZA is staunchly anti-austerity.
Sun May 6, 2012, 10:23 PM
May 2012

I'm not sure that they think staying in the Eurozone is worth the elimination of the entire Greek social wage...which is what will happen if Merkel gets her way on all of her vindictive and totally unjustified demands for mega-austerity.

They'll be nothing left in Greece when she's done...and certainly, if Merkel does get her way...no possibility of anything progressive or egalitarian ever being done in Greece again...or anywhere else in Europe.

(And in addition to her insistence on imposing austerity for austerity's sake, I think that Merkel, on some level sees EVERY left-wing person on the planet as a clone of the Stasi types in the DDR, and that every piece of social legislation ever passed, in her mind, somehow equates to the construction of the Berlin Wall).

BOG PERSON

(2,916 posts)
98. i know they're anti-austerity
Mon May 7, 2012, 10:06 AM
May 2012

i'm just not sure if that means anything if they're wishy-washy about greece staying in or quitting the EU.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
37. Just a small correction
Sun May 6, 2012, 10:27 PM
May 2012

It matters little what she thinks...empire has it's own logic...

So the more correct question is how will the empire react?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
41. That, too.
Sun May 6, 2012, 10:37 PM
May 2012

I suppose I see her as a marker of "the empire".

Perhaps I've personalized it slightly too much...but the suspicions are understandable.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
38. Nothing. She knows the election changes nothing.
Sun May 6, 2012, 10:28 PM
May 2012

the new government still has to deal with the same problems as the last one. And they are just as broke. There are not many options for them - they certainly will not be able to turn back the clock to they way life was before.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
42. Actually, it opens many possibilities for change.
Sun May 6, 2012, 10:41 PM
May 2012

The pro-austerity parties were completely humiliated...between them(PASOK and ND) they took 33% of the vote. PASOK, a party that used to be on the left, fell to 13%.

It shows that the Greek people are not acquiescent in what the financial imperialists are trying to impose on them...and that they may find new and creative alternatives...such as a true and full democracy(not only political, social, and economic). These alternatives are things people will be willing to make sacrifices for...because, unlike the austerity demands of the EU, they have something positive to lead to in the end.

You would have voted for an anti-austerity party if you'd been Greek wouldn't you? And I hope you'd have been in the streets and be planning to stay there now. A vote for an austerity party is a vote for a permanently right-wing and worthless Greece-reduced, perhaps, to the nothingness of the 1920's or even further in the past.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
47. Those new and creative alternatives had better fit within the global economy and financial markets
Sun May 6, 2012, 10:56 PM
May 2012

or they are screwed. At the end of the day you still need money to pay for everything you want. Greece doesn't have the money.

If I was a Greek, I would not have voted for the party that offered things they knew they could not pay for. I would have voted for the party that would fix the tax system to make it fair and also impossible to avoid.

Economic collapse will usher in the right wing. The new government has to provide jobs and get the economy moving.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
48. A pro-austerity party can do neither
Sun May 6, 2012, 10:59 PM
May 2012

And it's becoming clearer and clearer that the world can't survive the global economy and financial markets as currently constructed.

We need to create a system in which both of the above are subordinate to democracy. Without that, as the last few years in Greece shows, democracy is meaningless.

girl gone mad

(20,634 posts)
79. Not sure what you think money is.
Mon May 7, 2012, 04:17 AM
May 2012

Or why you think austerity and tax increases would "provide jobs and get the economy moving."

hack89

(39,171 posts)
94. I know that spending more money than you have is a bad thing.
Mon May 7, 2012, 08:16 AM
May 2012

I am not pro-austerity. I am pro "living within your means". The only thing that will get the economy moving is government policies that make it easy for people to start and grow businesses. Less regulation, less corruption, more transparency, a fair tax system - that is what Greece needs.

The Greeks have a lot going for them - they are hard working and industrious. The Greek economy has always been good - until they started borrowing money like there was no tomorrow. The Greek people have a right to mad at their former leaders - they lied and hid the true deficit from the public. But the new government still has to clean up the mess - there is no magic reset button to go back to the good old days.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
103. spending more money than you have is the main way individuals expand their assets.
Mon May 7, 2012, 03:26 PM
May 2012

and it's the only way governments can expand their economies.

otherwise, you're just pushing the same amount of cash around & it typically winds up concentrated in the hands of a few people.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
106. But when your bills get so large that they consume a large and growing portion of your income
Mon May 7, 2012, 04:23 PM
May 2012

then it doesn't matter, does it? If all your income is going in one pocket and out the other you never get ahead.

Yes, governments can spend money the stimulate the economy. Or they can spend money on wasteful and inefficient government spending that has no direct impact on the economy. Guess which one the Greeks did?

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
111. spending on social benefits has a direct impact on the economy. so not sure what you're
Mon May 7, 2012, 09:50 PM
May 2012

talking about.

the most wasteful spending the greek gov't did was their equivalent of our bankster bailout.

which is the main reason greeks are pissed at having to lose their pensions, etc. to pay for it.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
112. But if government tax receipts do not increase to cover those loan payments
Tue May 8, 2012, 08:04 AM
May 2012

then you are screwed. You still have to get back more than you spend. Greece didn't do that.

It doesn't help that tax evasion is the national pastime.

Greece is a fairly small country, but for the past year it has been causing an awfully big uproar. Burdened by a pile of government debt that could force it into default (and the European banking system into a meltdown), Greece has had to adopt ever more stringent austerity plans in order to secure a bailout from the European Union. Explanations of how Greece got in this mess typically focus on profligate public spending. But its fiscal woes are also due to a simple fact: tax evasion is the national pastime.

According to a remarkable presentation that a member of Greece’s central bank gave last fall, the gap between what Greek taxpayers owed last year and what they paid was about a third of total tax revenue, roughly the size of the country’s budget deficit. The “shadow economy”—business that’s legal but off the books—is larger in Greece than in almost any other European country, accounting for an estimated 27.5 per cent of its G.D.P. (In the United States, by contrast, that number is closer to nine per cent.) And the culture of evasion has negative consequences beyond the current crisis. It means that the revenue burden falls too heavily on honest taxpayers. It makes the system unduly regressive, since the rich cheat more. And it’s wasteful: it forces the government to spend extra money on collection (relative to G.D.P., Greece spends four times as much collecting income taxes as the U.S. does), even as evaders are devoting plenty of time and energy to hiding their income.


Read more http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2011/07/11/110711ta_talk_surowiecki#ixzz1uHM45Kaj

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
116. "LESS Regulation"....
Tue May 8, 2012, 11:53 AM
May 2012

Yeah.
If we just get the governments off the backs of the Corporations,
everything will just be peachy,
and Good Times will ROLL for everybody!

Historically, the OPPOSITE happens during periods of "Less Regulation".



[font size=3]"...and EVERYONE has a Share!", shouted Milo as the American planes began dropping their bombs on their own base.---Catch-22

Ruby the Liberal

(26,216 posts)
39. Are you missing a marble?
Sun May 6, 2012, 10:30 PM
May 2012

Because one just came out of nowhere and rolled under my foot.

If not, I'll let the lost-n-found know.

DevonRex

(22,541 posts)
43. I was just getting out my
Sun May 6, 2012, 10:45 PM
May 2012

my screwdriver kit, for just in case anybody felt the need to tighten something.

Ruby the Liberal

(26,216 posts)
50. Okay - I'll hang onto it for now.
Sun May 6, 2012, 11:00 PM
May 2012

Just in case.

I don't think anyone is manning Lost-n-found tonight anyway.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
63. She will go to her Fortress of Solitude
Sun May 6, 2012, 11:40 PM
May 2012

And transform into Godhilla, a fifty foot tall dinosaur. Then, she will trample Tokyo. The Japanese Army will lure her to Fukushima, but the radiation there will only make her stronger.

She will then go to Greece and start destroying Athens. Following an old legend, a young girl will pray for help at the foot of Mount Olympus. And down will come Appollo, the Titans, and the Heroes, who will shoot GodHilla with their golden arrows, sending her falling into a volcano to Hades.

The Titans will then rebuild Athens and Tokyo, and they will seal off Fukushima reminding us never again to unleash such powers as Hillary Clinton and nuclear energy, or even the gods may not be able to save us from such foolishness again.

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
67. And do you think the US should directly grant funds for Greek benefits?
Mon May 7, 2012, 02:32 AM
May 2012

Because no one will want to fund them now.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
68. I think the U.S. should make sure that U.S.-owned companies doing business in Greece
Mon May 7, 2012, 02:44 AM
May 2012

start damn well paying the taxes the OWE to Greece, rather than continuing to dodge them...AND that the U.S. should use its influence to get Germany and the EU to back off of vicious austerity demands that, essentially, the entire Greek social welfare system must be demolished and that pensions for elderly Greeks should essentially be abolished(you are aware, I assume, that a Greek pensioner just burned himself to death because the EU austerity demands reduced his pension to a level too low for him to live with dignity...and that it's like that others may join him in that choice, or, frankly, simply starve to death in unheated or uncooled apartments, just to appease the financial vampires who are bleeding Greece to death).

And if the Greek industrial/financial class stages a capital strike, I hope that President Obama will defend the democratic rights of the Greek people and support them if they do what they will then be morally entitled to do, and seize control of the Greek economy, running it by themselves for the good of all. He won't, of course...but that's what a decent human being with a backbone WOULD do.

AND the U.S. should seize any and all assets of all the Greek multimillionaires who plunged their country into this fiscal crisis through their refusal to contribute their fair share to social upkeep. This was their fault, the fault of the ND government that let costs get hopelessly out of hand for the Athens Olympics, and the fault of the international financial sharks who made Greece the victims of their bad loan bundling and other predatory practices. The workers and the poor of Greece bear no responsibility for the shortfall whatsoever. Indeed, before the banks and the Germans invented this "crisis", the Greek government ran one of the most frugal social welfare systems in all of Europe.

If Germany and the EU get their way on all of this, Greece will have no reason to ever call an election again, because it will be forced to be Mega-Thatcherite for the rest of eternity. It simply won't matter which faction of elitists administers the perpetual sacrifice and misery. And that will create the situation the wealthy, all over the world, actually want-freedom FROM democracy.

I'm not, of course, surprised, that, once again, you've taken the side of the rich against common humanity. You'll insist that "progressive-led" austerity is different than right-wing austerity...and you'll look delusional to any Greek person who might be reading this, or anyone else who is losing all their dignity and hope in the name of "paying the banks what they're owed". Typical.

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
72. One of the most frugal benefit systems in the EU? Can you back that up?
Mon May 7, 2012, 03:27 AM
May 2012

Less benefits than the Germans perhaps?

And I take it your answer is "no".

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
74. Here's one measure, from the FAIR website:
Mon May 7, 2012, 03:47 AM
May 2012
Greece spends a greater percent of its GDP than any other EU country on the military, while it ranks second to last in teacher salaries
(Dollars and Sense, 4/14/10). USA Today (5/10/10) put a rare human face on austerity proposals with a profile of a Greek schoolteacher, accurately summing up her situation as “a hard life [that’s] about to get harder.”



Greece also has
a particularly under staffed and poorly organized tax authority


(according to "The Citizens" a conservative website I just checked)

which is clearly far more important to the crisis than any amount of pensions spending.

And here's the thing about pensions...if the Greeks keep cutting them, they'll force older people to keep working, which sounds like the sort ot "rugged individualism" you cheerlead for, but it would also mean that, because those people were taking up the jobs, YOUTH unemployment would massively increase, which would mean that, with the cuts in unemployment coverage that are also happening in Greece, those young people would have no choice to leave, depriving Greece of a population base and thus reducing tax revenues. How, exactly, would THAT make anything better?

The notion of Greece as a victim of big social spending is a right-wing myth. If you call yourself a progressive, you have an obligation to always be against demands for punitive austerity.

The "crisis" was caused by the previous right-wing government and the rich tax evaders. And only THEY should have to sacrifice to solve this "crisis".

girl gone mad

(20,634 posts)
80. The Greek social safety net is very modest by European standards.
Mon May 7, 2012, 04:23 AM
May 2012

Greece does offer a decent pension to some, but this was a political choice made through the decades and it came with a price. Greeks traded away unemployment compensation and other standard benefits to preserve those pensions.

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
84. Greece's generous pensions What makes Germans so very cross about Greece?
Mon May 7, 2012, 05:23 AM
May 2012

It is not only that our EU partners are angry about our lying to them (and to ourselves) about the state of our finances, nor is it only that they will have to help us politically or economically (or both), but there is also the rather damning fact that in many aspects the Greeks enjoy a more privileged life than their German partners in the EU. Through all this borrowing, Greek salaries and pensions rose far above (about 30 percent) Greek productivity. This means that even if salaries in many cases (though not all) were still lower than the German equivalent, pensions were higher, and usually paid at an earlier age. So there is no longer a feeling of the richer EU countries helping their poorer partners – Greece’s mess comes across as exploitation of the underprivileged by the pampered.
Actually, even this frank analysis has skated over some still nastier gulfs of understanding and misunderstanding. Because the outside world looks at Greek pensions and sees a mess of special interest groups securing unaffordable pensions from successive governments, more or less as electoral bribes. (There have been special pension deals over the years for civil servants, for Olympic Airlines staff, farmers, wives of farmers, employees at the National Bank of Greece, even I am told hairdressers, the list is very long).

But seen from the perspective of ordinary Greeks, it has not felt so cosy as all that. If the pension scheme is utterly broke, it is not just because of greedy Greeks.

This devastating academic study details how many Greek state bodies failed to make the correct contributions for their employees, in some cases for years. Then the Greek central government "essentially appropriated" social insurance funds by investing them in state securities or depositing them in the Bank of Greece at low interest rates. Finally, as in many Mediterranean countries, all social spending was skewed towards pensions, essentially for vote-winning purposes. Things like unemployment benefits are pretty miserly in Greece, the real money has always gone to pensions, which have been used as a "substitute" for other welfare policies.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/charlemagne/2010/02/greeces_generous_pensions

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
87. On a progressive website, you cite "The Economist"?
Mon May 7, 2012, 05:57 AM
May 2012

The voice of the pro-austerity financial elite? The magazine that cheered on the worst that Reagan, Thatcher and Pinochet did to working people?

What the hell, dude?

 

dkf

(37,305 posts)
89. This is what came up when I googled for Greek vs German pensions.
Mon May 7, 2012, 07:07 AM
May 2012

If you have a better source I would be interested in seeing it.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
127. All that tells us is that Greece pays somewhat more for pensions than Germany
Fri May 11, 2012, 03:40 PM
May 2012

What you don't seem to get is that Merkel is fiscally persecuting Greece just to get out of having to give her own country a decent pension system.

And the fact remains...if the wealthy in Greece and the corporations doing business there had actually PAID the taxes they were legally obligated to pay, there would have been no "crisis".

What happened in Greece was the banks taking the opportunity to punish the workers and the poor for daring not to die out.

How can you take the side of the financial cabal on all of this and still claim to be a "progressive".

The last four years SHOULD have made the scales fall from your eyes.

girl gone mad

(20,634 posts)
91. Even from a neoliberal magazine..
Mon May 7, 2012, 07:27 AM
May 2012

you can glimpse what has happened, as the banks conspired to loot from the people. As I was telling you, standard benefits were traded away while these pensions were propped up. Yes, the politicians bought votes bu making these promises. No, this is not even close to being the cause of the crisis in Greece.

LongTomH

(8,636 posts)
118. I wish I could do a 'DUrec' for this comment! I'm 100% on board!
Tue May 8, 2012, 12:13 PM
May 2012

The Right has done a brilliant job of selling the idea that social spending is what has collapsed the economies of Portugal-Spain-Ireland-Iceland-Greece and that austerity is the 'cure.' Actually, it has been the predatory banksters that caused the calamity and 'austerity' is the equivalent of medieval doctors bleeding a patient to cure the disease (Which frequently killed the patient!).

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
69. I think that Hillary and Bill will call their broker and pronto!
Mon May 7, 2012, 02:44 AM
May 2012

That's how they will respond to the situation.

 

coalition_unwilling

(14,180 posts)
75. Christ, she's still trying to wash the blood off her hands from 1,000,000+
Mon May 7, 2012, 03:49 AM
May 2012

dead Iraqis. Haiti and Honduras are mere footnotes to that little matter.

But K&R anyway.

kenny blankenship

(15,689 posts)
76. Assuming she's the monster you think she is
Mon May 7, 2012, 03:54 AM
May 2012

She probably won't have to do much. The party with the greatest share of the votes is the rightwing New Democracy bunch who were in power already. They will have 3 days to form a coalition government with PASOK, the nominally Socialist party that was elected to clean up the financial mess in 2009, but which fell on its sword when it accepted the austerity for bailout plan pushed by the northern tier of EU states, basically committing the party equivalent of suicide to protect Greece's EU membership. Even that coalition of enemies falls short of the seats required for a working government by two seats, which means the coalition has to be rounded out with a far far far right party.

In that case, Hillary's job would already be done for her.

If that effort to form a coalition fails, the second place finisher Syriza (the upstart keepin-it-real, anti-austerity-for-bailouts Socialist front) gets a shot at forming a coalition government, They'd be starting with the remnants of PASOK , which was completely arseholed by the Greek electorate for giving into the bailout blackmail, going from 160 seats to just 41. Obviously they will then have to go fishing for coalition partners among the splinter rightwing crazies.

And if that effort fails, then 3rd place finisher PASOK gets a chance to form a coalition government...

If no coalition is worked out at the end of one month, new elections will be held.

Since no party will likely hold an absolute majority after fresh elections, the first place finisher will have three days to form a coalition....

DonCoquixote

(13,615 posts)
82. Be careful
Mon May 7, 2012, 04:31 AM
May 2012

Admitting Hillary is a fan of right wing power when it suits her wallet is sure to get you thrown to the PUMA pit. They are busy gearing up for 2016, y' know?

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
86. That has become pretty obvious in this thread by now.
Mon May 7, 2012, 05:54 AM
May 2012

Some folks here think that imperialism is fine, so long as it's led by an empress.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
102. if Hillary says/does that then it will probably be because it's Obama's policy
Mon May 7, 2012, 03:22 PM
May 2012

that's kind of how it works.

Oilwellian

(12,647 posts)
99. You left out Colombia
Mon May 7, 2012, 01:53 PM
May 2012


The Third Way response to the people's push backs in Greece and France, judging from their vicious history in other countries, won't be pretty.

Mc Mike

(9,106 posts)
101. Maybe re-invade Grenada.
Mon May 7, 2012, 02:57 PM
May 2012

But your questions are super important. Kieros from Athens is already getting tuckered out, and more Chicago boy shock doctrine austerity while neo-nazis are getting elected into office seems like a bad idea, even before another military coup occurs. Rivals the pre-WWI balkan flash point.

Mc Mike

(9,106 posts)
114. Naomi Klein's '07 book. P. 61 on Milton Friedman.
Tue May 8, 2012, 10:34 AM
May 2012

It looks like there's 2 different issues on this post. 1) Whether to back Sec. Clinton and how much power and independence she has.
2)Exactly what's happening in Greece and other European Union partners that are teetering economically (and politically, socially).

I back Pres Obama and Sec Clinton in '12. How much foreign and econ policy control they can exert over this serious situation in Greece is debatable. My opt out scenario of re-taking Grenada wasn't a slur vs. our current Dem admin, just whistling in the dark. I know Sec. Clinton had nothing to do with Raygun pulling out of the Lebanon hot-spot and hitting Grenada, to chalk up a 'win'. I believe the harsh response to Ken here is by people that want Clinton in '16, and I'm thinking about '12. Adverse post-ers on this thread might also just want some recognition of the enormous amount of work our S.O.S. is doing, and I freely admit it.

Chicago boy shock doctrine addresses # 2. Didn't mean for it to be cryptic. Ms. Klein is a syndicated writer for The Nation, The Guardian, and Harpers; and Former Fellow at the London School of Econ. Her book 'The Shock Doctrine' covered the Milton Friedman University of Chicago neo-liberal school of economic thought, whose adherents sometimes self-appelate as the Chicago Boys (p. 95). It was interesting watching Prof. Krugman recently on R. Maddow trying to 're-claim' Friedman, but I think he was just saying current repug economic policy makes Friedman look reasonable, like how Dem politicians will sometimes 'appropriate' the positive aspects of Nixon or Reagan in order to illustrate how out of whack current GOP 'thinking' is.

Prof. Klein talks about WTO \ IMF {"business-friendly policies imposed through arm twisting...The three trademark demands -- privatization, government deregulation, and deep cuts to social spending ... extremely unpopular with citizens..." (p. 10).} That's Greece. I saw Kieros the Athens protest dog running around on this site a while back, ironically putting a 'human face' on the struggle there, which looks like Arab Spring and Occupy. As a Rainbow Coalition labor Dem, I see the Greek protestors and those other groups as allies, who are against the shock doctrine measures enacted against the 99%, by WTO (GATT, Free Trade agreements), IMF-World Bank, G-8 \ G-20, and E. U. economic policy.

Prof. Klein discussed how that alphabet soup of governmental and quasi-governmental groups actually use crises (social, political, economic), wars, and natural disasters to impose austerity on the citizens, and their corporate and financial industry 1%-er friends make a heap of money in the process. She shows where those groups precipitate crises, then use them and make profits. That's the shock doctrine. Her book gives a ton of good info, I have it dog-eared and marked up extensively.

Greece has strikes and riots, hopeless citizens turning to nazi strong men for an answer, and the possibility of another far-right military coup. The Greeks and Turks are militarized and have long-standing problems with each other. The Turks are embroiled against the Kurds, down into Iraq. The Greeks oppose the existence of Macedonia, which western financial interests carved out of the carcass of Yugoslavia. Last I heard, they oppose its recognition in the UN. So we're looking at a flash point that stretches from the Balkan WWI flash point right down into Iraq, where the whole Middle East is a tinder-box. Not an easy job for our Sec. of State.

Lastly, I call the Dailey bros the Dailey 'Boys', myself. Mayor Emmanuel has a certain boyish charm, and boyish good looks, but I was sorry to hear his opinion on progressives' mental capacities. Klein and Palast both cover the Friedman economic 'Chicago Boys' ethically shaky moves. I'd never call the Pres a 'boy', or the Sec a 'girl', but their connections to Chicago are extensive. I opposed the DLC, in every election primary for the last 20 years, even before the Koch-connection was revealed. But given the GOP penchant for constantly fielding a candidate that is more stupid, craven, and feckless than their previous election cycle offering, I anticipate them running Pauly Shore in '16. So whoever the repugs run, if Sec. Clinton is our party's nominee, I'll cast my first vote for a DLC candidate.





 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
105. Ken: you may be right, you may not be. But I'm not ridiculing you.
Mon May 7, 2012, 03:39 PM
May 2012

I'm sorry if this feels like a thread hijack, but I'm more concerned with people's reactions (first, they ridicule you....sound familiar?). Most respondents to this thread seem to want to score points with one another by suggesting that you're a little off, that you have a marble loose, etc. Again, I don't really know enough about the situation, about macroeconomics, or about Greece itself to know how this will play out--but neither do the others replying to this thread. And I don't pretend to know what's on Hillary Clinton's mind today, but to act as though she's not capable of less-than-savory actions would be to deny both her history, and the position of Secretary of State. They don't pick Sunday School teachers for that position, and I think you brought up a topic worthy of actual discussion.

 

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)
126. Thanks for the thoughtful post.
Fri May 11, 2012, 03:35 PM
May 2012

I started a thread that made some people uncomfortable.

It started a discussion that was outside their "comfort zone".

The response from such quarters was to be expected.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
119. Hillary WILL support the interests of the IMF and the Global Banks.
Tue May 8, 2012, 12:25 PM
May 2012

They OWN our government no matter WHO we vote for.
....but she will make a good show of feeling the pain in front of the TV Cameras,
as will President Obama.
That is the difference between the Republicans and the Democrats on Foreign Policy.
The Democrats make SURE that the World sees them feeling the pain as they drop the hammer.


Foreign Policy is above their pay grade.
Sure, they are allowed to put whatever pretty face they want on it,
but the nuts and bolts of our "Foreign Policy" hasn't changed for over 50 years whether it was the conservative Republicans or conservative Democrats holding the White House and majorities in Congress.

*We WILL grab WHAT we can WHEN we can,
not FOR the American People who WILL pay for it,
but FOR the Global Corporations and the 1%.
SEE: Iraq and the "Oil Law".
SEE: Libya and the IMF

*We WILL support the forces of International Predatory (Disaster) Capitalism,
even if it means financing Dictators and Death Squads.

*Our military is at the disposal of the G-8, WTO, and the IMF.
Bad stuff will happen to anyone who says "NO" to the IMF.

*We WILL support, arm, and finance Israel
no matter WHAT the cost and no matter WHAT the government of Israel does.

Hillary, Bush, Obama, Bolton, Reagan, Rice, Powell .... it just doesn't matter.
Some things do NOT change, even when the White House does.



You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
[font size=5 color=green]Solidarity99![/font][font size=2 color=green]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/center]
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juice feast

(12 posts)
120. What ever it turns out to be
Tue May 8, 2012, 01:02 PM
May 2012

I bet it'll more resemble Maggie Thatcher's thuggery than Indira Ghandi's grace!

Arkana

(24,347 posts)
122. She'll carry out the orders given to her by her boss, the President of the United States.
Tue May 8, 2012, 01:13 PM
May 2012

You need to go have some juice and a cookie.

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