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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsTOM TOMORROW: Circular Debate
Mon May 07, 2012 at 06:50 AM PDT
Circular debate
by Tom Tomorrow
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/07/1088725/-Circular-debate
Octafish
(55,745 posts)by Steve Ragan - Mar 19 2012, 17:55
The Tech Herald
EXCERPT...
Section 215 is in the spotlight because FISA (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act) courts have issued legal opinions on the section in secret. Its a public statute, but how it is interpreted by the FISA courts, or anyone else in the government for that matter, is unknown. However, its clear that the section vastly expands the governments power when it comes to intelligence collection.
While the government has given Congress details on their interpretation, the data was so highly classified that most Congressional members do not have anyone on staff with the clearance to read them.
In a letter sent to Attorney General Holder by Senators Wyden and Udall, this fact was highlighted, along with a note that if their colleagues were fully aware of the data, they would likely be surprised and angry to learn how the Patriot Act has been dealt with in secret. So would everyone else the letter says.
We believe most Americans would be stunned to learn the details of how these secret court opinions have interpreted section 215 of the Patriot Act. As we see it, there is now a significant gap between what most Americans think the law allows and what they government secretly claims the law allows. This is a problem, because it is impossible to have an informed public debate about what the law should say when the public doesnt know what its government thinks the law says, the Senators wrote.
SNIP...
However, in a democratic society in which the government derives its power from the consent of the people citizens rightly expect that their government will not arbitrarily keep information from them. Americans expect their government to operate within the boundaries of publicly-understood law, and as voters they have a need and a right to now how the law is being interpreted, so that they can ratify or reject decisions made on their behalf. To put it another way, Americans know that their government will sometimes conduct secret operations, but they don't think that government officials should be writing secret laws.
SOURCE: http://www.thetechherald.com/articles/Senators-Wyden-and-Udall-still-fighting-against-Patriot-Act-secrecy/16433/
Is it fascism, yet?
Marr
(20,317 posts)would be abused.
Certainly not anyone with Real Power in the summer of 2001 would do anything about anything to predict or prevent anything, let alone connect a couple of the biggest dots ever to see the light of day standing next to each other in sequential order:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1229509
But, noooooo. And so, there went the Bill of Rights, except as it applies to corporations and their majority shareholders.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)OnyxCollie
(9,958 posts)I think we should just trust our president in every decision he makes and should just support that, you know, and be faithful in what happens."
Are Chuckles and Britney Spears the same person? You never see them in the same room together...
I wonder how many socks they have here.
hay rick
(7,603 posts)Of course, when it comes to the Patriot Act, I think we're all missing our underwear.
rurallib
(62,406 posts)wasn't that what Nixon said?
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)Though he argued that, "if the Governor does it, it isn't illegal," then called out the National Guard to guard him from the Sheriff until Al Capone offered to solve the governor's legal issues.
His other argument was that he cashed the tax checks directly into his personal accounts. Since he took the money before the state ever received it, he couldn't possibly be guilty of stealing from the state!
Occulus
(20,599 posts)truebrit71
(20,805 posts)"I wish treestar and prosense were here to make everything okay again "
do you mean
"what do you mean"
think it is the posting style that explains it all!
treestar
(82,383 posts)BBI, Manny Goldstein and the usual suspects will be around to blame it all on the President.
Why is it any better to always be negative? That's what I don't get. Why is the POTUS not allowed to have a side and supporters, whereas his consistent bashers are always considered OK? Sounds like a double standard to me.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)Last edited Wed May 9, 2012, 03:49 PM - Edit history (1)
It's not about "bashing" all the time, but about giving Obama a pass on issues in which identical or similar behavior on the part of Bush would have been criticized.
The poster is suggesting that you and others are being hypocrytical. I presume you see it differently. I presume you don't see yourself in Tom Tomorrow's comic at all.
Uncle Joe
(58,342 posts)Thanks for the thread, FourScore.
a2liberal
(1,524 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)Tom Tomorrow is a very insightful and talented artist.
KG
(28,751 posts)KG
(28,751 posts)done anything wrong...
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)Solly Mack
(90,762 posts)NoMoreWarNow
(1,259 posts)-- the government sees everything we do online. Of that, we can be sure.
MadHound
(34,179 posts)The guy is a national treasure. Sad that he doesn't get more attention.
WillyT
(72,631 posts)Overseas
(12,121 posts)colsohlibgal
(5,275 posts)Obama is actually disappearing more people minus due process than Dubya did.You'll never hear that on mainstream news but you can see all about it at Project Censored online. Once there you can see a lot of other issues covered that MSN won't touch.
We're being spied on all over the place as well, all for our "own good". We keep forgetting what Benjamin Franklin famously said, namely that those who surrender liberty for security have neither. I imagine old Ben is spinning in his grave.
"1984" in 2012.