I am pro-abortion, not just pro-choice: 10 reasons why we must support the procedure and the choice

[PeaceNikki]

I believe that abortion care is a positive social good -- and I think it’s time people said so ~VALERIE TARICO

Recently, the Daily Kos published an article titled I Am Pro-Choice, Not Pro-Abortion. “Has anyone ever truly been pro-abortion?” one commenter asked.

Uh. Yes. Me. That would be me.

I am pro-abortion like I’m pro-knee-replacement and pro-chemotherapy and pro-cataract surgery. As the last protection against ill-conceived childbearing when all else fails, abortion is part of a set of tools that help women and men to form the families of their choosing. I believe that abortion care is a positive social good. I suspect that a lot of other people secretly believe the same thing. And I think it’s time we said so.

As an aside, I’m also pro-choice. Choice is about who gets to make the decision. The question of whether and when we bring a new life into the world is, to my mind, one of the most important decisions a person can make. It is too big a decision for us to make for each other, and especially for perfect strangers.

But independent of who owns the decision, I’m pro on the procedure, and I’ve decided that it’s time, for once and for all, to count it out on my 10 fingers.

1. I’m pro-abortion because being able to delay and limit childbearing is fundamental to female empowerment and equality. A woman who lacks the means to manage her fertility lacks the means to manage her life. Any plans, dreams, aspirations, responsibilities or commitments–no matter how important–have a great big contingency clause built: “until or unless I get pregnant, in which case all bets are off.”

...

2. I’m pro-abortion because well-timed pregnancies give children a healthier start in life. We now have ample evidence that babies do best when women are able to space their pregnancies and get both pre-natal and pre-conception care. The specific nutrients we ingest in the weeks before we get pregnant can have a lifelong effect on the wellbeing of our offspring. Rapid repeat pregnancies increase the risk of low birthweight babies and other complications. Wanted babies are more likely to get their toes kissed, to be welcomed into families that are financially and emotionally ready to receive them, to get preventive medical care during childhood and the kinds of loving engagement that helps young brains to develop.

Much more that has me applauding in agreement here: http://www.salon.com/2015/04/24/i_am_pro_abortion_not_just_pro_choice_10_reasons_why_we_must_support_the_procedure_and_the_choice/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Abortion: a moral & positive choice that liberates women, saves lives, & protects families

[bettyellen]

1. Excellent post- thank you. So disheartening how many Dems waffle on this.

I hold them all accountable for the erosion of women's reproductive freedom.

[PeaceNikki]

2. I do, too, betty.

It's soft support that has allowed us to get to this point. We need to heed RBG's advice and wake up.

[Brickbat]

3. K&R. So frustrating we have to keep having this conversation.

[PeaceNikki]

8. I wish we'd focus more on this as a party. Our collective complacency feeds the movement to restrict

Drives me nuts

[ismnotwasm]

4. Excellent OP

[Zorra]

5. You had me at #1.

Bookmarking, thanks.

[progressoid]

6. Rec!

[cyberswede]

7. Excellent article. K&R

Thanks for posting!

[Novara]

9. Applauding

I appreciate framing pro-choice as who gets to make the choice. The given is that abortion is safe, legal, and readily available, which it always should be, not safe, legal, and rare. Let's change "rare" to "readily available." Enough with these ridiculous waiting periods, enough with women having to travel hundreds of miles and stay overnight to wait out the imposed waiting period, enough with imposed barriers to have a constitutionally-protected procedure (Roe v Wade).

We are women; we know what is good for us. No one gets to make our healthcare decisions for us.

[PeaceNikki]

10. Amen. And it is a timely article given some recent conversations here on DU.

We need to own this. Complacency has cost us dearly.

[Novara]

15. Absolutely

The left did us a major disservice by capitulating to the right and saying that abortions should be rare. I understand the argument made is that we need good birth control but that will never reduce the need for good abortion care. These two need to be separated - we don't live in a perfect world. Yes, let's have good birth control. But let's also remove the barriers to good abortion care when birth control fails. The need for good abortion care will always be present no matter what. So let's stop making it shameful and horrible and ferchrissakes, stop making women jump through hoops to avail themselves of a legal healthcare option!

As women, as men, as humans, we can determine whether to have a family, when, and how many. This is a huge part of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in my mind. There should be no impediments to that.

[eggplant]

49. Saying "Abortion should be rare" is like saying "Root canal should be rare".

I agree. The "rare" part of the standard rallying cry is somewhat offensive. If abortion is ok (and it is), then people can STFU with the shaming. Women need to be able to have whatever safe, legal procedures they want without having to justify it to some moral authority.

[calimary]

81. GOOD one. We just absolutely have to STOP using the enemy's memes and messaging and framings.

We HAVE TO STOP doing that. Because otherwise we're forced to fight THEIR way, on THEIR ground, on THEIR rules. And when that's the situation, we've already lost.

[arely staircase]

11. condoms are much cheaper nt

[PeaceNikki]

14. 7. I’m pro-abortion because contraceptives are imperfect, and people are too.

The Pill is 1960’s technology, now half a century old. For decades, women were told the Pill was 99 percent effective, and they blamed themselves when they got pregnant anyways. But that 99 percent is a “perfect use” statistics, and in the real world, where most of us live, people aren’t perfect. In the real world, 1 in 11 women relying on the Pill gets pregnant each year. For a couple relying on condoms, that’s 1 in 6. Young and poor women—those whose lives are least predictable and most vulnerable to being thrown off course—are also those who have the most difficulty taking pills consistently. Pill technology most fails those who need it most, which makes abortion access a matter not only of compassion but of justice.

[arely staircase]

16. I am pro condom because it is even more empowering

One can avoid pregnancy altogether. And save money. Pretty empowering.

[PeaceNikki]

17. I, too am 100% pro-condom! But since 1 in 6 result in pregnancy, also pro-abortion.

http://www.contraceptivetechnology.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/CTFailureTable.pdf

[arely staircase]

21. can't trust birth control, huh?

Where have I heard that before?

[PeaceNikki]

25. Um... in factual data perhaps? Are you claiming it's 100% effective?

[arely staircase]

84. strawman nt

[PeaceNikki]

85. It was a bit of a rhetorical question. We both know for a fact that it is not.

Stating it is not controversial and I am not sure what you were trying to imply by "can't trust birth control, huh? Where have I heard that before?". With what are you trying to equate my 1 in 6 statement? Cuz I kinda think you were heading a bit down Strawman Blvd yourself.

[Arugula Latte]

126. WTF?

You've never heard of condom mishaps?

Of course condoms are good. But when they fail, abortion is good.

Jeeezus.

[enlightenment]

20. There are only two ways a woman capable of

pregnancy can avoid it altogether.

Sterilization and never (ever) engaging in sexual intercourse with someone capable of producing viable sperm.

[arely staircase]

24. you sound lile an abstinance only text nt

[PeaceNikki]

26. Again, are you claiming that BC is 100% effective?

[enlightenment]

30. And you make no sense at all. nt

[Buzz cook]

129. One more way that's 100% effective

If the woman's partner is sterile.

[calimary]

80. I am also pro-condom, but condoms can fail. There HAS to be a variety of options.

Including abortion.

Hey, I had two pregnancies, two normal vaginal deliveries, and that was that. We'd used condoms. They never failed US, at least. But the speed at which I got pregnant once we stopped using them because we decided it was time to start trying to build a family - was actually a little unsettling. It was like ONE MONTH. Stopped using 'em. Took THREE times. ONE month later, BOOM. In BOTH cases!!! I was 35 the first time. Didn't matter. BOOM!!! Friends started calling me "Fertile Myrtle" and my husband "Johnny One-Shot." It gave me a whole new respect for condoms. Criminy - I remember looking at that first pregnancy test and seeing the results and feeling the blood drain from my face - "SHIT - THAT fast??????? Are you KIDDING ME????" I thought we were going to have to struggle and try again and again and again and that it'd take years and maybe we'd have to wind up at some fertility clinic because of my age by then. Uh - NOPE!

But condoms CAN fail. And if one has tried very deliberately and purposefully to avoid pregnancy and there's still an "oopsie" despite that effort, there HAS TO be another option. Or two. Or MORE.

Condoms CAN fail. We just got lucky. Hell, I just got lucky. I refused to go to bed with a guy unless he had one. And I was very up front about it. You want it? Well, then you do this, and I'm there! I'll meet you in bed! Or in the back of the car. Or out in the bushes behind the barn. Or WHEREVER. Otherwise, no.

I actually started referring to it as the "condom test." And I told my daughter about it. I found it EXTREMELY valuable and instructive in assessing whether the guy in question was worth that ultimate love-gift from me. Because going to bed with someone was a big deal for me. I didn't just hop around - just because. And if the guy was willing or even eager to honor my wishes - that told me WORLDS of information about him, all of it good. That told me this guy was worth it. That told me this guy was considerate and generous and loving and caring. That told me this guy would put my concerns and needs up at the top or near the top. That told me this guy would consider my feelings and needs, and make a lot of room for them in his mind. If he passed the test on this count, then he could be expected to do so on other issues also - especially if we were thinking of maybe making a go of it together. I was NOT going to wind up with some dictator who dismissed my concerns - concerns which I found entirely reasonable. I was NOT going to be with a guy who just wanted to get his rocks off and never mind how I would feel about it. And so I passed on a few men who weren't willing for whatever reason it was, to accommodate me. Either they were selfish, or they didn't like the feel, or they found it a hassle and didn't want to be bothered going that extra step, or they didn't want to be told what to do, or they thought it was merely my place to be grateful and willing and passive, or it didn't matter to them that much (in other words, I didn't matter to them that much), or they didn't think they should have to, or they thought I should be the one carrying the full load -("well, why aren't you on the pill?" - Answer: it was chemically BAD and quite incompatible for me! It left me physically sick and very messed up. And I know that because I tried it for awhile.)

That's the reason I'm still with the guy I married some almost-40 years ago. It's HUGELY instructive about the man you're with. Does he consider it lovemaking or just fucking? Does he want it because he actually does care about YOU? Does he want it just because he's horny and doesn't feel like using his hand this time? Does he want it because he figures he bought dinner and a movie or something and now you have to put out because it's his due? That's what went through my mind way back, decades ago, while I was still dating. It proved very effectively, at least to me, the full measure of the man. As I said - that's why I wound up with the guy I'm with.

Condoms CAN fail. I'm amazed that throughout my years of sexual activity, one never did. But I know it can happen. So condoms are NOT the only answer.

[nashville_brook]

27. typically 86 out of 100 women will get pregnant using male condoms over 10 years

so, you get what you pay for.


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/09/14/sunday-review/unplanned-pregnancies.html?_r=1

The longer any method of contraception is used, the greater the probability of unplanned pregnancy — the same way that any small risk, taken repeatedly, grows in likelihood. This is true for all contraception methods, even in the highly unlikely event that they are used perfectly, every time.

the problem with this typical dismissive attitude is it doesn't take reality into account.

[eggplant]

43. Thank you for your drive-by, meaningless comment. n/t

[PeaceNikki]

55. arely started a competing thread on the topic.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026565438

[cyberswede]

88. ...and another one

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026566305

[PeaceNikki]

91. I can't even.

[beam me up scottie]

120. And another 'I'm not pro-abortion' thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026568703

Because...root canals.



No moral judgment there, not at all.

[PeaceNikki]

121. Sigh. As the poets Anthrax would say, "Talking to some is like clapping with one hand"

[beam me up scottie]

122. Didn't there used to be a jerk-off smilie?

I think we need to resurrect it for these "Republican Rebuttal" threads.

[Starry Messenger]

56. I got pregnant using a diaphragm.

I had an abortion. It's cheaper than raising a kid.

[bullwinkle428]

110. Dude - they BREAK on occasion! I know, as it's happened to me!

[Jefferson23]

12. Highly recommend. n/t

[HereSince1628]

13. All true, well reasoned, and yet probably too complicated

The more lines that are written, the more room for maneuver is created between the lines

I'm for abortion because I believe women of have the right to self-dense.

[indivisibleman]

18. Great Post n/t

[DirkGently]

19. Yes. "Pro-abortion," please. It's well past time.

Sane people everywhere have somehow been persuaded to play a kind of soft defense on this issue. I write this from Florida, where our disturbingly reptilian governor stands poised to sign a "24-hour wait time" bill; which follows up on a "mandatory counseling law," all of which may well be followed by the new round of "20 week ban" laws slithering their way around the country.

Dems have been far too shy about standing up and pushing for the right to easily accessible abortion, and as a result, we have seen endless waves of these bills pandering to the really very small population that delights in eroding women's rights to make their own healthcare decisions.

This has to be a binary, litmus-test issue for anyone who wants progressives, or Democrats, or human beings in general to vote for or support them.

No more waffling about abortion needing to be "rare."
No more passes for disingenuous forced "education" for women or doctors on the subject of their own bodies.
No more pseudo-science treating a fetus as more of a "person" than a woman.

No more.

Great post and link.

[PeaceNikki]

22. We have wait time and parental notification laws here in WI.

Thankfully we border IL and many in SE WI go to Chicago for services. Even with travel, it's cheaper and quicker.

Yeah, the complacency needs to stop and now.

Thank you for your continued strong support on this issue, Dirk. I really appreciate your input.

[nashville_brook]

28. +100000

[cali]

23. ? fabulous op

[enlightenment]

29. Well said.

And long past time where it should be said. Thank you for posting.

[PeaceNikki]

31. We need to keep saying it. Over and over.

[enlightenment]

44. Indeed.

I've never understood why we need to dance around this issue, as if we are afraid of the word abortion. Frankly, it comes down to a very simple idea. You either agree or disagree with the deliberate termination of a pregnancy.

You are either for it or against it. All of the nuance and parsing and "well, but" or "yes, until" addenda in the world are meaningless. You support abortion or you don't. Full stop.

Why and when a woman chooses to abort is irrelevant to the position someone else takes. The moment someone who claims to be "pro-choice" says that limits aren't wrong, they move to the other side of the line, whether they think so or not.

The only choice is between a woman and her medical provider. If she includes someone else in that process, that's part of her choice.

That woman's choice is not for me to decide. My only choice is to support abortion or not.

I support abortion.

[PeaceNikki]

45. Thundering applause.

We could afford soft support, complacency and dancing around it if the efforts to restrict it didn't exist. However, they are wildly successful. As such we need to stand up and own this issue.

The days of being able to stand on the sidelines with a timid golf clap are over.

Thank you.

[enlightenment]

48. Thank you, PeaceNikki.

This discussion is long overdue - and I, for one, am tired of pussy-footing around it.

We definitely need to own this.

[broadcaster75201]

32. BINGO!!! n/t

nt

[Nay]

33. I've never been reticent about saying that abortion is a positive thing. That's why

I never liked the phrase that abortion should be available but "rare." I didn't like it when Ms Clinton said that, because it suggests that abortion is bad, somehow. I never thought that myself.

[PeaceNikki]

34. Me, too.

[roody]

50. I doubt she means it. She wants to be elected.

[SunSeeker]

53. Saying abortion should be rare is not saying choosing abortion is bad.

I'm pro-abortion (as that term is defined by this OP) and I think abortion should be rare. The reason I think it should be rare is not because I think the procedure is bad. I think the need for an abortion should be rare because I think rape and poverty and lack or failure of birth control should be rare. I'm also pro-chemotherapy and think that should be rare too.

Alas, cancer is not rare, and neither are unwanted pregnancies. So chemo and abortions should be readily available to everyone who needs them. But we should of course work on making the need for abortion rare. That is what I think Hillary Clinton is talking about when she and many other pro-choice leaders say abortion should be "safe, legal and rare."

[marym625]

35. Not to disrespect you, but I would say I am not pro-abortion.

I am pro women. And until the parasite living inside her is outside her, she and only she has the right to control it. It's her body and fuck anyone that tries to tell her what she can or cannot do with it

[lobodons]

36. Anti-Abortion rebuttal

Full Disclosure: This is not my opinion, but is what they will come back with. And no matter how hard you try, you will not be able to persuade them otherwise.

The anti-Abortion rebuttal would be: You do have the Choice in the matter. Close your legs.

[PeaceNikki]

37. That's not a rebuttal, that's a childish reply unworthy of further discussion.

The only response that would get would be an epic eye roll from me. And if it were an actual attempt at a rebuttal on DU, an alert as well.

[nashville_brook]

64. that's some offensive BS...did you think women aren't aware of what idiots think?

[zazen]

38. this radical feminist believes abortion unique and ends a life, and that mothers get to make that choice

I know where you're coming from, but denying that a pregnancy is a life growing inside of a person is playing into the hands of the right wing.

As Catharine MacKinnon said, abortion is killing, and who says women don't get to make that decision?

Abortion is like no other procedure. We do not need to accept the Enlightenment masculinist frame of the "Individual," based on the male body, in order to have meaningful freedom.

Let's work on imagining a sense of self based on the female capacity to be grow life. That should be encompassed within our definition of the individual, not Thomas Paine or Jefferson or whomever who assume the Male was normal and the female a derivative, with a pregnancy a separate self/man with its full rights. We have a life and capacity for another symbiotic life within us. We get to choose what to do with that symbiotic life. It's not a limb. IT SHOULDN'T HAVE TO BE. When we try to make our fetus like "a limb" so we're as "free" as men, we limit our sense of individuality to the male experience. It is unique to the female sex for a period of our lives, and we get to define it. What if the Female symbiotic individual is the norm against which rights/freedom is judged?

We deny the moral import of our decisions at our peril. Rather than deadening myself to the life inside me or anyone else, I say, I'll keep working on creating conditions where women get to choose whether to get pregnant in the first place, and choose how to handle it afterwards. And creating a world where mothering an infant isn't so crippling a financial and physical (and sole) responsibility that abortion is also her only viable choice, in which case that's also no choice at all.

I'm saying that we can handle the grief and moral import of ending the symbiotic life within us without trivializing it into a bunionectomy. If a woman cannot for whatever reason sustain the life within her, she gets to make that choice.

But I've had babies and felt them alive within me very early. Are we dead to that? Should I pretend that's an appendix? Deaden myself to the first three months of pregnancy because to accept the right-wing enlightenment era definition of the individual means "life=carrying to term/murder?"

I know you mean to stop shaming of women, but I feel you're playing into the hands and frame of the right-wing. They're forcing us into the position of saying it's not life in order to justify our freedom to choose, based on their old notion of the "individual" based on a male's experience.

[PeaceNikki]

39. oh, ffs."Life begins at conception"?

Beyond the obvious controversy of this statement, there is actually a second and more subtle error here. And that is that human life began only once: at the dawn of humanity, with the rise of the first human beings. Since then, there has been a continuum of human life: every sperm, every egg and every zygote have been full-fledged signs of human life, complete with all the characteristics of normal cellular activity, and all 46 human chromosomes. (Half of these chromosomes go unused in the case of sperm and eggs, but all 46 are there nonetheless.) The correct question is not "When does human life begin?" but "When does personhood begin?"

If pro-choice advocates reject conception as the first moment of personhood, then the question becomes: when do pro-choice advocates believe that personhood begins? One of the best tests of personhood is viability, upon which the 1973 Supreme Court decision Roe vs. Wade was based. Viability is defined as the ability to live outside the womb. It is based upon the broader logic that "a person is as a person does." In other words, people normally breathe on their own, circulate blood on their own, fight off most germs on their own and sustain normal cellular activity on their own. A fetus is able to achieve these functions once it reaches a weight of about 5 pounds. This usually occurs between the 7th and 8th month of pregnancy -- coincidentally, about the time that the baby has finished its brain and central nervous system. The extra womb time appears to be a biological courtesy.


From: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-personhood.htm

I'm not buying what you're selling.

[zazen]

77. a "person is as a person does?" then many disabled/elderly don't qualify as persons

PeaceNikki, for the life of me, I do not understand why you jump to being so combative with someone who's obviously arguing with you from a heartfelt, informed place, who may not agree with you but is in line with a radical feminist as well-versed in the law as Catharine Mackinnon (see "Feminism Unmodified" or "Toward a Feminist Theory of the State.&quot My understanding is that privately Dworkin agreed with her. I know close friends of Andrea who shared with me at their kitchen table in the late 80s the same concerns.

You can continue with the "FFS" and "what you're selling," but obviously I'm not some right-wing maniac who's trolling for Pat Robertson here. Why is that tone necessary?

I won't engage in these discussions anymore, because I don't think you're doing it in good faith--for us to learn from each other to move forward on behalf of women's (and human) empowerment. You seem to be so certain of your position that you belittle informed people with a deep understanding of women's issues simply because they question you.

We're on the same side when it comes to the voting booth and free/unrestricted access to BC, abortion, and pregnancy care, and we can leave it at that.

[PeaceNikki]

83. Yeah, admittedly I am a bit defensive on the issue because of the sweeping legislation restricting

access over the past decade or so. So yeah, I would very much like to completely destigmatize abortion and change the narrative. Also admittedly I am not interested in engaging in conversation which propagates that stigma or implies that abortion is a poor decision that should be wrought with guilt.

So, if we're on the same side at the voting booth, yay! If we're both sincere and strong in our beliefs nothing one says to the other, no matter how 'combative', will change that. And if that keeps you out of this conversation, ok. Have a great weekend.

[zazen]

82. Could we be "Pro-Access?" Because choice isn't enough if you can't get one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6566160

Most people are anti-abortion, including myself. They're heartbreaking, to me.

I don't think the OP will "hear" me because apparently abortions are A-OK with her and "I'm selling something," but maybe other people posting here might see this as a plausible way to reframe the debate, since "choice" is meaningless without the ability to quickly, safely, affordably, privately, supportively access all women's healthcare, including abortion.

Too many things in our society are "choice" anyway without any economics taken into consideration. The freedom to have it is meaningless if it's only available to wealthy women.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

94. A life, but not a person.

Yes, a foetus is alive.

But until it's developed a mind, it's not a person.

I believe that the reason human life has value and computers, say, don't is that we are self-aware. Until the mind is there, a foetus is living tissue, arguably even a living being, but certainly not a person, and its only value comes from its potential to become a person, and its value to others. It doesn't have any value to itself, because there is no "self" for it to have value to yet.

[3catwoman3]

40. An eloquent and rational...

...article. Thank you for posting it.

I find it sad for my fellow women around the planet that not all pregnancies are sources of joy and cause for celebration. How lovely it would be if that were the case, but for a variety of reasons, not all pregnancies are - financial constraints, timing, rape/incest, devastating birth defects, etc.

It is absolutely none of my business, or anyone else's, to tell a fellow woman what she should do about a pregnancy that is not a source of joy. IMO, the rights of those already alive outside the uterus take precedence over the rights of those still inside.

[eggplant]

41. The right to abortion is meaningless without the means to get one. Please give generously.

http://www.fundabortionnow.org/

New to abortion funding? It’s all here – where we are, how we got here, and how we can reverse more than three decades of discrimination against women living in poverty. Sure, there’s a lot you can learn, but the most important thing is what you already know: Women’s lives matter. That’s why we need to fund abortion. It’s why we need to overturn the Hyde Amendment and every other obstacle that stands between a woman and the abortion she needs. It’s why we need you.

[PeaceNikki]

42. Thank you for the link. You're 100% correct.

[eggplant]

47. I used to give to Planned Parenthood, but I've shifted my donations to local Abortion Funds.

PP is great for providing low-cost healthcare to women, and have a great lobbying machine. But for a woman who needs an abortion TODAY, and doesn't have the means (cost, transportation, childcare, time off from work...), lobbying doesn't help.

It is so wonderful that there are resources for women to tap in these situations. We need more of them.

[ScreamingMeemie]

57. "Was" great for providing low-cost healthcare to women... Texas has decimated them

I'm still donating to PP so they can fight the good fight here in my state.

[eggplant]

75. Good for you!

I figure that most people will give to PP, since the awareness of NNAF is low (in comparison) -- My $50 (or whatever) will do much more good for my local fund than for PP. I still encourage people to give to PP as well.

It is an awkward conversation when I get the annual fund drive calls from PP and I tell them that I'm giving my money elsewhere. It is a pretty negative call until I explain where I *am* giving. One of the fund drive callers became a convert.

[Solly Mack]

46. K&R!!!!!!!!

[ananda]

51. I am pro anything that means freedom and empowerment ...

... for everyone, including women.

Women should have complete, affordable, safe access
to birth control, abortion services, and all health
services.

Period.

[bonzotex]

52. exactly, K/R

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

54. Agreed. K&R

[Ino]

58. This is why I think "rare" is important...

It has nothing to do with morality. Abortion is invasive, and there are always risks to invasive procedures. There are better, easier ways to prevent pregnancy. If they fail, there's always abortion. But it's not birth control, FFS!

Interview of Sherri Shepherd by Joy Behar...
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0910/30/joy.01.html

BEHAR: You talk about like abortions that you`ve had.
SHEPHERD: Yes.
BEHAR: Now, you`ve talked about that you had a lot of them.
SHEPHERD: Yes.
BEHAR: How many? How many did you have really?
SHEPHERD: I had a lot.
BEHAR: Ten?
SHEPHERD: Yes, it was a lot.
BEHAR: Really?
SHEPHERD: It was a long time -- it was over a decade and a half ago. But I was young. And it was a time when for me, it was like birth control.
BEHAR: Yes.
SHEPHERD: Because you know, sometimes when you are young, you just don`t think about the ramifications or the consequences of the choices that you make. And I was one of those girls. I didn`t think about these are babies. I just knew that I was pregnant and I didn`t want to be pregnant anymore.
BEHAR: So wasn`t it easier after the fifth abortion to say to yourself I might as well just use a condom and it`s lot easier than an abortion.
SHEPHERD: No. I just didn`t think about it. I was a teenager -- I just didn`t think about it.

[PeaceNikki]

59. Um... By definition is is "birth control". It controls birth.

[Ino]

105. Oh, I am so wrong.

You win.

[eggplant]

101. Childbirth is *far* more invasive.

And if a woman chooses to use abortion as their primary means of birth control, that is THEIR RIGHT. Period. End of discussion.

Either the procedure is legal, or it is not. You could make the same argument that one tattoo is ok, but not 10. It is only the public shaming associated with abortion that is different.

[Ino]

106. Did you read my post?

I said nothing about legality or shaming. I did not say a woman should not have that right. I did not say it was more invasive than childbirth. Who are you talking to???

You could make the argument that it's every person's right to have their teeth pulled, and if they prefer to do that rather than brush/floss, it's their right. And you know what? It is their right. BUT IT'S STUPID.

Using abortion as a means of birth control is stupid. It should be a last resort method.

[niyad]

60. k and r + a gazillion. thank you for sharing this excellent article.

(and thanks for giving me a new definition for the woman-hating, pro-forced birthers, that phrase being "gestational slavers&quot

[A Simple Game]

61. Pro-abortion, yep that'll help the cause.

Keep it up you'll have the majority behind you in no time.

[PeaceNikki]

62. Your concern has been noted.

[Novara]

65. The demographics are there already

Most people believe a woman should have the choice to end a pregnancy.

You all have said such wonderful things and it's music to my ears. I'm tired of the efforts to shame women, I'm DAMN tired of the efforts to control women. Women are fully worthy of self-determination and autonomy. I can't imagine controlling someone else's life and future regarding something as personal as whether to have children.

What makes anyone think they have the right to control women?

[PeaceNikki]

68. I suspect the poster to whom you replied is not among them

I base that on the "...you'll have the majority behind you...", not "us" statement.

[A Simple Game]

73. You are perfectly right about the you and us. I am not behind you and neither is or will be

the majority. You will only get the "using abortion for birth control" crowd saying "see we told you so." Pro-choice and easy access are the way to go, not sounding like you are pushing women to use abortion for birth control.

And for the record, I am anti-abortion and pro-choice just like most of the country.

[PeaceNikki]

76. So you want to further restrict or outlaw abortions?

[A Simple Game]

92. Do you even know what pro choice means?

Make sure you know what words are coming out of your own mouth before you put words in mine.

[PeaceNikki]

93. You said, "I am anti-abortion..."

If you are really anti-abortion you would want to restrict or outlaw it. If you want to to be an easily accessible and affordable option for all, you are pro-abortion whether you are willing to say the words or not.

[A Simple Game]

107. You are equating abortion with choice, that is not a true equation.

Do you think it is possible to be the exact opposite of me, both pro-abortion and anti-choice at the same time? Would that be a desirable set of beliefs for you?

And how do you equate pro-choice with being for restriction or banning of abortion. Understand this, anti-abortion is a personal feeling, anti-choice is a political and legal imposition on the ability to choose to have an abortion or to be restricted in your ability to choose. Restrictions can be by way of time limits, or ease of access, etc.

What is so hard to understand about my wanting you to have the choice of an abortion but hoping you choose not to have one? It's not my body, not my life so not my choice.

[PeaceNikki]

112. Abortion is an important part of choice. If you support choice, you support abortion.

Whether *you* would choose one or hope others would or would not is not part of the equationequation and, frankly, irrelevant. You support it or you don't.

[A Simple Game]

117. Whether I choose an abortion, or you choose an abortion, or the woman down the street chooses an

abortion is the only part of the equation that counts. My choice is not your choice or the woman down the streets choice. Your choice is not my choice, and neither of us should have any say about the woman down the streets choice unless she asks for our input. That is the idea, it should be a personal choice. The only way for it to be personal is for the choice to not be political but medical. Politics should have no say in this.

I see your not much for answering questions which may make the conversation more educational so we may as well call this my last reply to you on this subject.

I'm still not sure you understand that there is a difference between abortion and choice.

[A Simple Game]

99. I don't think I have the right to control women, that's why I am pro-choice.

The people that don't understand the difference between abortion and choice in this thread is astounding.

Do you even realize there is a difference between being for or against abortion and being for or against choice?

I would personally not want anyone to have an abortion but I have no right to tell others what they should or shouldn't do and wouldn't. I would think no less of someone that has an abortion than I do of someone that doesn't because it should be a personal choice.

[PeaceNikki]

100. That's what we call "soft support" and it leads to complacency while access is being restricted.

[Rex]

70. The majority are already behind her! I am surprised that you did not know that.

The majority of people in this country are pro-abortion.

[A Simple Game]

96. Please provide a link, I can find no poll that shows a majority are pro-abortion.

You do know pro-abortion does not equal pro-choice, don't you? A very big difference.

This is the best I can find and does not show what you claim.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/abortion.aspx
This doesn't show anywhere near a majority favor unrestricted choice.

Please provide a link to a poll that shows a majority for abortion, not choice but abortion.

[Rex]

98. .

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

Only around 25% of the people polled were anti-abortion. Over 70% were pro-abortion.

[A Simple Game]

102. I see nothing on that site that confirms what you are claiming.

Most of the polls are about availability (choice) of abortion not whether people are pro or anti-abortion.

The first poll shows only 38% are for abortions to be generally available, 34% available under heavier restrictions, 25% not permitted, and 3% unsure. Available under heavier restrictions is not equal to free choice, nor even does generally available mean restriction free.

Many of the polls on that page are meaningless like the Fox poll close to the bottom which asks if you are pro-life or pro-choice. That is apples and oranges pro-life is not the opposite of pro-choice. I am living proof of that.

I will ask you the same question I have asked others, do you know the difference between anti or pro-abortion and anti or pro-choice?

[Rex]

103. Sorry but you cannot deny the facts on that page just to fit your agenda.

I gave you what you wanted and you poo poo'd. I figured you would, but hey I tried to show you how wrong you are.

Most people are pro-abortion, I am sorry if you don't know what the term means. Please try and educate yourself.

[A Simple Game]

104. Ok, it's a long page maybe I missed it. Please tell me about where on the

page is the poll that supports your claim of 70% support for abortion, not choice but abortion.

[Lars39]

78. Self-determination used to be a hall-mark of the U.S.

When the hell did that change?

[pansypoo53219]

63. i am WAY pro-abortion. we need to control population! i am pro darwin.

[smirkymonkey]

66. +1000

[Rex]

67. I don't see how you can be one, without the other.

Pro-choice cannot be anti-abortion. Pro-abortion cannot be anti-choice.

[PeaceNikki]

69. Me, neither, Rex.

[Rex]

72. Great thread PeaceNikki!

Glad to see this is a no-brainer for the regulars here. The 'concern' will always be there and we must note it. Still, so glad to see us agreeing on something so fundamental.

Human rights, we all either have them or they are not rights at all. Just privileges some of us get, while others get thrown out in the cold.

If women do not have basic human rights, then we are NOTHING and have GALL to call ourselves a civilized species.

[rgbecker]

86. Actually, there is such a thing as forced abortion.

I believe the concept has been and may still be the case in China where those pregnant with a second child are forced to undergo an abortion to limit the family to one child. This would be a case on the part of the government of being Pro Abortion without being pro choice.

That said, the sooner people are unafraid to come out with how they truthfully feel about these various issues, (Abortion, Gay rights, rape) the sooner we will see some serious changes.

[joshcryer]

132. Good point, Hillary Clinton noted that in her hearing on this:

But forced abortion is anti-choice at its core.

[joshcryer]

131. I see it the same way.

Pro-choice is pro-abortion.

But you can be pro-choice and anti-abortion (for yourself or your loved ones; yes a pro-choice man could be anti-abortion in his personal case but it's not his choice, he can still make his intentions known, and a pro-choice woman can be anti-abortion for herself but for choice for other women; I know four women friends who are / were this way with unexpected pregnancies, all of whom had their children).

You cannot be anti-choice and pro-abortion (or anti-abortion pro-choice).

[hifiguy]

71. Thanks for a great post!!

[alphafemale]

74. Pro abortion as much I am pro heart bypass surgery

It's not like YAY! Abortion. Woohoo!

Heart bypass WooHoo!

A necessary thing that has to be there, when other things like birth control or poor choices have failed in the case of abortion.

Or genetics or poor choices have failed in the case of needing a heart bypass.

We do not try to outlaw heart bypasses because the recipients "might" be gluttons.

Something most certainly deemed to be a sin by that book some people love so much.

[Rozlee]

79. Excellent post! If the right wing had their way, the Duggars would be all of us.

Especially one of my cousins. I have a cousin whose IQ is slightly below normal. Sixty years ago, she married a brutish man who abused her and sexually abused her daughters, whenever he was around, which was enough times to get her to give birth to 17 children. One of her daughters died at age 27 from ovarian cancer. She had given birth at age 11 to her father's child. Seven of my cousin's children died. She tried to do what the Duggars did with so many kids. She delegated and had the older children watch the younger ones. Once, the kids were throwing the baby to each other while the baby shrieked in delight. After a while, the baby wasn't making any noise. His neck had been broken. Another child drowned while swimming at a creek. Another was hit by a car. Even as we speak, one is dying at this moment from years of alcohol abuse. He's been in a nursing home for years and has days to live. My cousin doesn't know. She's in critical condition in a hospital herself from a stroke she many or many not recover from. If she recovers, it'll be to learn she's lost an 8th child.

Different members of the community and family tried to help my cousin, but at that time, we all had medium to large families as well, although not super-sized ones like hers. Her husband, when he was there, kept everyone away as well. He was a fiend whose passing was actually rejoiced. I feel sad at the life my cousin's led. She was fresh from Mexico and very simple and uneducated and above all, taught to believe that men ruled absolutely over women. The perfect Republican model. The Duggars have funds and can afford their brood. Their assembly line delegation of parenthood that allows Michelle Duggar to gestate in peace is her choice, unlike my cousin, who really had no choice, being trapped in a system of patriarchy that conservatives feel all women should be in. I'm pro-abortion too. Even though after the fact, I wince at the thought of so many of my cousins not having existed after knowing them, the suffering so many of them endured breaks my heart. Was it part of a great cosmic plan to be born, only to have your neck broken when you were less than a year old? To drown in a creek or be hit by a car while still a small child? To die of blood poisoning because your mother was too overwhelmed and exhausted to notice your cut had gotten infected? And on and on. I loved them all, and I'm not heartless enough to say I wish they'd never been born. But, I wish, conversely, their mother had known better.

[beam me up scottie]

109. If the Duggars had their way, the Duggars would be all of us.

They contribute to anti-choice causes and preach about it on their website. This is why I think DUers should be allowed to trash them at will.

Rozlee your cousin's story is heartbreaking, thank you for sharing it. I can't even imagine such a life.

Being pro-abortion means you never want to see anyone else live it.

[BrotherIvan]

87. Big Rec

It is time to stand up and totally (and easily) disprove all the nonsense the religious whackos have snuck into the conversation. Even on this thread, someone is arguing that life begins at conception and abortion is killing a baby. I've seen and discussed this several times on DU: a fetus in not a baby. Look it up in your Bible if you must. But the idea has been widely accepted from a long, hard PR campaign to erode the right of women to essential medical care.

My friend said it best when we were hanging out with her two year-old, "I used to be against abortion, but now I'm completely for it. Forcing someone to give birth and raise a child is cruel. It's too hard and too dangerous. I want two kids and forcing me to have any more because you believe a lie is bullshit. How many kids do you think I should have before I drop dead?" That's from a mother.

I will add, we have become so arrogant as a species we believe we need every human fetus to be born into yet another human to add to the billions already eating the planet. Why in this day and age, when the majority of children make it into adulthood, are we encouraging large farming families like it's 1909?? It's so willfully blind it's like thinking the sun revolves around the earth (which they probably do but won't admit). I'm hoping this phase of crazy religious backlash blows over in my lifetime. It's not necessary, practical, or best for the children to have monstrous families. Evolve already. And when can we get birth control that's 100% effective? We can go to Mars but we can't prevent a simple process? We haven't quite left the Dark Ages.

Great article. Needs to be said loudly and often.

[PeaceNikki]

90. Thank you. Six out of ten abortions are performed on women who are already mothers.

We know what the risks and rewards are.

[Bluenorthwest]

89. Great post, I agree.

I find the people who want to make this about a word choice to be absurd, as if by saying 'choice' not 'abortion' those opposed would suddenly favor reproductive freedoms. It reminds me of the old 'but if we call it civil unions, they won't object because you know, marriage is sacred' crap.

[yellowwoodII]

95. Too early pregancies and life's journey

I know so many young people whose lives have been affected negatively by early pregnancies. This affects boys, too. Early pregnancies interrupt chances to get an education, and few 17/18 year olds can judge what mates would be appropriate for them.

[beam me up scottie]

97. What the fuck just happened?

I just read through this thread and the others and did one of these:

Pro-abortion, all the way. The 'stop getting preggers and you won't have to get abortions' stigma needs to end now.

Brilliant op.

[bvar22]

108. I am ANTI-Abortion, but firmly Pro-Choice.

This is a matter between woman, her doctor, and her god if she chooses one.
IT is not my business..... or yours, unless she is denied Medical Care.


I can't see myself attending a Pro-Abortion Rally.

[me b zola]

111. This gets a BIG recommendation from me!

I think that many liberal minded people have always hated the "rare" wording, as if we need to grovel and explain to complete strangers how & why we exercise the reproductive choices that we do.

Not all pregnancies should be brought to term, and a women should not ever have to explain to anyone why she terminates a pregnancy.

[valerief]

113. I agree. I tell people I'm pro-abortion, too. Abortion is a remedy, not a fuckin' sin. nt

[PeaceNikki]

116. Amen.

[Nictuku]

114. Pro-Condom

It may be too late for this guy:

https://www.facebook.com/MajoeDuisburg/videos/586441461409520/

[PeaceNikki]

115. I, too am 100% pro-condom! But since 1 in 6 result in pregnancy, also pro-abortion.

http://www.contraceptivetechnology.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/CTFailureTable.pdf

[Lunabell]

118. I hate it when people say, " no one is pro abortion!"

I am pro abortion as well. It is a medical procedure. Nothing tho be ashamed of!

[spanone]

119. i'm pro any medical procedure that your doctor and you decide upon

[ibegurpard]

123. I don't need to be pro-abortion

It's none of my fucking business and I'll fight like hell to keep it that way.

[eridani]

124. I am pro-abortion, but sometimes feel like I am also saying--

--"I hope your birth control fails." No one wants to say that.

[PeaceNikki]

125. That's a ridiculous framing. I never feel that way.

[ScreamingMeemie]

127. I have never felt that way... this is how I feel: It should be a widely shared option

as acceptable and accessible as adoption or giving birth. End of story.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

128. she speaks for me too.couldn't agree more.

[joshcryer]

130. I'm pro-vasectomy.

[In_The_Wind]

135. +1 !!!

[PeaceNikki]

136. Snip 'em all!!

Or something.

[Scuba]

133. Kick.

[nashville_brook]

134. kick