Wow! DU finally decided that bashing Democratic pres candidates might not be the best thing to do!

[DanTex]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by TexasTowelie (a host of the General Discussion forum).

And all it took was Bernie Sanders entering the race to bring about this massive change of heart!

[BainsBane]

1. It's amazing people can argue that with a straight face

after months, even years, devoted to trying to destroy Clinton's political prospects and insulting everyone who fails to despise her on command. Do you suppose they know how hypocritical they sound, or are they so certain that they are the only people who matter that they can't see anything ironic in their indicting others for what they have been doing for a very long time?

As I have said elsewhere, if I were to judge Sanders by his supporters on this site, it would be impossible to support him. I am going to have to block out everything I have read on DU in order to make a rational assessment of the candidates.

[joeybee12]

2. I agree...I like Bernie...but zealotry turns me off...nt

[Warren DeMontague]

9. "zealotry turns me off"

Yes, this X 1000.

And man, there sure are a lot of zealots out there.

[greatauntoftriplets]

10. Same here.

And I am still uncommitted except to vote for the eventual Democratic nominee.

[cstanleytech]

90. Considering the nutjobs for the republicans that

have announced they are running or exploring running for the office who else could anyone with even half a brain cell functioning vote for really?

[Agschmid]

91. Yup.

[DanTex]

8. Seriously.

The same people who get giddy about email-gate and foundation-gate and HSBC-gate and so on, but someone says "I like Bernie but don't think he can win the GD" and they lose their heads.

[Cha]

35. "..lose their heads." is right. Top of the page.. ".. big heaping STFU.." And, that racist graphic

one of his supporters made that got locked. stupid stupid stupid.

I think Bernie became a Dem so as not to divide the Dem Party.. but some of his supporters are something else entirely.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. Who made a racist graphic? /NT

[Cha]

63. It was pointed out to us in another thread in GD that got locked for being meta.. only the

STFU one of course didn't get locked as meta.. just because it was meta, too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6593320

and the original pos.. http://www.democraticunderground.com/12777544

[Fumesucker]

11. I could definitely say the same of Hillary

The thread about Judith Miller is hilarious, the number of people taking a whack at that Iraq War Pinata who will then turn around and excuse Hillary voting and speechifying for the very same thing is astonishing.

[BainsBane]

15. I haven't seen that

one thread. I have seen the thousands trashing Clinton for a long time. Pretending there is anything approaching parity is absurd. People have insisted for months now that using GOP media and talking points was completely legitimate criticism. Now suddenly if anyone raises concerns about Sanders, they are doing the bidding of the GOP. To pretend otherwise runs counter to all available evidence. Your point doesn't even make sense. "You could say the same." The same what? Which candidate have Clinton supporters been trashing for years now?

Why don't we cut to the chase. Let's just stipulate that those of us who refuse to despise Clinton on command are inherently inferior to those who have spewed venom about her for year's now? Okay? It's already been made perfectly clear to me that I and Democrats like me are the enemy, not the 1 percent, not Wall Street, but people like me. After all, I can't write a four digit check to Sanders at the drop of a hat. That means I'm aligned with the 1 percent. That is the nature of the fucked-up logic of the self-entitled crowd around here and I have really had enough of it. Far be it from me to interfere from the noble crusade of the top 10 percent against the top 1 percent. The rest of us are collateral damage or, more appropriately, the enemy for failing to recognize how insignificant our lives are.

[Fumesucker]

21. I'm not sure collateral damage is really the best phrase to use regarding the Iraq war

Judith Miller is getting trashed on that thread and rightfully so. But she was just a reporter working for a private newspaper company, not a member of the greatest deliberative body in the world.

Yet another example of the inverse authority/responsibility curve in American culture, the reporter is totally responsible and gets ripped a new one for listening to the government and getting it wrong, the Senator gets a mulligan for the same offense.

The double standard is glaring.

[Hekate]

39. The Press is so important that it is enshrined in the Constitution. They have a responsibility equal

....to that of the members of Congress.

Nuh-uh. Judith Miller does not get off lightly for carrying water for the BushCheney cabal and thereby misinforming the masses.

[Fumesucker]

43. Wanna make that claim an OP and see where it goes?

The Press is so important that it is enshrined in the Constitution. They have a responsibility equal
....to that of the members of Congress.

[Hekate]

55. Why, to play mud pies with you? It's not as much fun as you think. nt

[Fumesucker]

67. It's an interesting Constitutional interpretation that I haven't encountered before

That reporters bear as much responsibility as Senators seems a little extreme to me, the reporters certainly don't have the authority a Senator does.

I seem to recall that there was a court case which established a news organization has a legal right to lie. Perhaps there is something similar for Senators that I'm unfamiliar with.

[okaawhatever]

31. No hyrocrisy there. Some of us put things in perspective. We can't pretend like she had the

information back then that she has now. The fact of the matter is, the Bush administration hid quite a bit of intelligence to frame a narrative. Not to mention the lies about yellow cake and WMD. The American public was for the war. Her constituents were very much for the war. People in New York were reading Judith Miller and were disinformed.

Hillary was one of the first to become critical and change her position on it.

Hillary admitted in her book that she got the Iraq ware decision wrong.

I don't vote on one issue and I understand that she voted the way her constituents wanted her to. It's easy to assume a candidate who wasn't a member of congress in 2003 wouldn't have voted for the war, but we don't know that. Given the same information, the same constituency, and the same public support those candidates may have voted for the war.

Disqualifying Hillary based on one vote, when the other candidate didn't vote at all is disengenuous.

[Fumesucker]

40. What do you think would happen if I went on that thread and defended Miller?

Would you support me in defending her?

[okaawhatever]

75. Not the same thing. If you believe Miller didn't know the truth when she was writing it then

it's similar, but the accusations against Judith Miller were that she was one of the ones doing the deceiving. Hillary is guilty of believing it.

[Fumesucker]

82. Another innocent victim cruelly taken in by the ever wily and smooth talking Dubya

Come with me to the Casbah!

[okaawhatever]

84. LOL nt

[Liberal_in_LA]

3. yeah. tone changed when du focused on bernie

[onehandle]

4. There will be more. More voices make us stronger.

Blanket attacks do not.

[ucrdem]

5. The weird thing is I always thought the people bashing Obama 24/7 were secret Clinton loyalists.

Turns out they just like to bash.

[Hekate]

42. You've got that right. It makes one wonder about their real motives. nt

[Andy823]

6. Trust me it's not over

While some here may change their ways, many others won't. They will continue to "bash" away day after day after day. It seems that's all they have to do.

[Cha]

37. The bashing will stop for a bit in the General.. I can't wait!

[Logical]

7. Well, define "democratic candidate" and you have your answer. nt

[BainsBane]

12. It's Democratic

as in candidates of a party.

But your point is clear enough. It has nothing to do with the actual arguments being made but that the people making them think themselves the sole arbiters of democracy and acceptable speech, which is among the reasons they are Sanders greatest liability. I just hope he doesn't let people like this anywhere near his campaign or work on the streets for him, or he won't stand a chance. People who go around telling others how inferior they are don't play well with ordinary folks. Still, they might be useful on the country club/Starbucks circuit. They just have to make sure no media is anywhere in listening distance.

[rhett o rick]

13. I am glad you mentioned the Populist Candidate Sen Sanders.

He has long supported the people. His views are crystal clear. He will support Social Security and work to raise the cap. He will work to roll back the Patriot Act and end domestic spying by the NSA/CIA Security State. He supports putting American workers to work and not Vietnamese workers (ala TPP).

Support the Populist candidate Sen Sanders.

[Zorra]

14. rhett, did you know Bernie Sanders has 100% ratings by both NARAL and HRC? nt

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

16. Where?

I've seen plenty of Bernie bashing. And I expect it from HRC supporters. Hell, I just stepped out of a Bernie bashing OP just before reading this OP.

[DanTex]

18. Right there. With your post.

Apparently "Bernie bashing", which amounts to "I think Bernie is great but I don't think he can win the GD" is some kind of thoughtcrime, but the endless threads about how horrible Hillary because she has an email server, or banks with HSBC, or whatever other pointless nonsense, all that is A-OK.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

22. Actually I was pointing out that it goes both ways, and it's only to be expected.

Supporters of candidate X are going to talk up candidate X and tear down candidate Y. And vice versa.

Now I've SEEN HRC supporters claim there was no 'Bernie bashing', then gone into a different OP hours later and also seen the exact same supporter actually engaging in Bernie bashing. So there's still hypocrisy out there, but as I said, I'm not surprised by Bernie bashing, I actually expect it, because the candidates are competitors.

"There can be only one!"

[NuclearDem]

27. Like the OP that tells Sanders supporters

to have a "big heaping helping of shut the fuck up." The same one where despite the title Sanders supporters wished HRC well in the primary.

Yeah, that Bernie bashing.

[woo me with science]

17. What an absurd OP.

Last edited Thu Apr 30, 2015, 11:38 PM - Edit history (1)

I call this familiar Third Way tactic the attempt to turn elections from civic exercise into vapid social event. To pretend that merely being a "Democrat" makes all candidates alike regardless of their actual record. To detach party loyalty from actual policies and to insist on absurd rules about not criticizing their records, as though they were guests at a party rather than politicians applying for jobs as our representatives.

Just as our political discourse on TV has been perverted into personality gossip rather than a discussion of issues to find the candidate who best represents the interests of the people, we are now lectured on DU that it's not nice to say anything negative about a candidate....as though we were at a cocktail party or a social gathering rather than vetting applicants for a job that will exert power over the lives of millions of human beings.

We have a grave, systemic problem in this country. It is problem of filthy corporate money buying our elections and our political candidates. Hillary Clinton is the poster candidate for this problem. She is intimately tied to Goldman-Sachs and Wall Street, and her record promises more of the corporate looting and dismantling of democracy that have hollowed out the middle class in this nation and turned us from representative democratic nation into an authoritarian oligarchy with secret laws, secret courts, mass surveillance, militarized police, crushing of whistleblowing and dissent, endless war for profit, and systematic exploitation of the 99 percent for the profit of the One Percent.

This suggestion that calling out a predatory corporate record is "bashing," or that saying something negative about a candidate's record is somehow unseemly, as though we were at a social gathering where if you can't say something nice, you shouldn't say anything at all....This is a Third Way tactic to change the rules of politics. To silence strong, well-founded opposition to candidates whose associations and policies are malignant to ordinary Americans.

Hillary's record is that of a Third Way, corporate-purchased politician. It promises more looting and exploitation of the 99 percent, more bloody warmongering for profit, and more defense of an increasingly authoritarian, undemocratic police and surveillance state, where whistleblowers are not safe.

It is the civic duty of American citizens to speak honestly about the monied corruption in our system and to advocate against purchased candidates and for actual representatives of the people. We can't afford four more years of corporate predation.

The Clinton Dynasty's Horrific Legacy: More Drug War, More Prisons
http://www.alternet.org/drugs/clinton-dynasty-horrific-legacy-more-drug-war-more-prisons

Hillary Clinton's leading role in drafting the TPP
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101667554

Hillary's TPP will mean a pay cut for 90 percent of American workers.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023661805

Hillary pushes for increases in H1B visas and outsourcing.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6405669

Hillary Clinton and Trade Deals: That “Giant Sucking Sound”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016101761

Hillary Clinton Cheerleads for Biotech and GMOs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/112772326

Dissecting Hillary Clinton's Neocon Talking Points - Atlantic Interview
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017209519

NYTimes notices Hillary's natural affinity toward the neocons.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025205645

Hillary Clinton, the unrepentant hawk
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024876898

More from Hillary Clinton's State Department: The fascistic TISA (Trade in Services Agreement)
http://m.thenation.com/blog/180572-grassroots-labor-uprising-your-bank

How Hillary Clinton's State Department sold fracking to the world
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251376647

Hillary Clinton Sides with NSA over Snowden Disclosures
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101695441

On the NSA, Hillary Clinton Is Either a Fool or a Liar
http://m.thenation.com/article/180564-nsa-hillary-clinton-either-fool-or-liar

Corporate Warfare: Hillary Clinton admits role in Honduran coup aftermath
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025601610#post29

The Bill and Hillary Clinton Money Machine Taps Corporate Cash
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025189257

Hillary's Privatization Plan: TISA kept more secret than the TPP
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014829628

Hillary Clinton criticizes Obama's foreign policy 'failure'; strongly defends Israel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014867136

Some of Hillary Clinton's statements on Social Security.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024379279

Hillary Clinton's GOLDMAN SACHS PROBLEM.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025049343

Ring of Fire: Hillary Clinton - The Perfect Republican Candidate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017209285

How Americans Need Answers From Hillary Clinton On TPP, KXL, Wall St & More
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017181611

Hillary Clinton Left Out By Liberal Donor Club
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025809071

Why Wall Street Loves Hillary
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016106575

Hillary Clinton: Neocon-lite
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101684986

Interactive graphic of Hillary Clinton's connections to the Forbes top 400 (Follow link in post)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025824981#post9

The Warmongering Record of Hillary Clinton "I urged him to bomb..."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026219783

Hillary Clinton criticizes Obama's foreign policy 'failure'; strongly defends Israel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014867136

Hillary defends Israel on Gaza carpet bombing
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025274041

Hillary tacks right of Obama on foreign policy.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024707589

Dissecting Hillary Clinton's Neocon Talking Points - Atlantic Interview
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017209519

NYTimes notices Hillary's natural affinity toward the neocons.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025205645

Hillary Clinton, the unrepentant hawk
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024876898

Hillary Clinton Praises George W. Bush and the Art of Compromise
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026394878

Hillary Clinton's role in right-wing Honduran coup and aftermath
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025601610#post29

Hillary Clinton's Horrifying Iraq War Vote Still Matters.
http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/hillary-clintons-iraq-war-vote-still-matters-9737

Secret recordings show US military and a Democratic congressman distrusted Hillary Clinton on Libya (lying, manipulating intelligence)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026157088

Hillary Clinton Blasts ‘Unfair’ World Reaction Over Gaza, Cites Anti-Semitism As Factor
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025364869

Obama didn't go as far as Hillary now says she wanted to go in smashing Syria
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251375376

Hand in Hand With Kissinger: A Review of Hillary Clinton’s Review
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016102317

Hillary Clinton Serves Us KISSINGER KOOL-AID
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025504036

MJ - Hillary Clinton Praises a Guy With Lots of Blood on His Hands
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025493748

[DanTex]

19. Yes that list is what I'm talking about.

But I bet if I point out that Bernie Sanders is great, but he can't win the GD, you'll call foul!

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

23. I won't call foul. I expect you to say such things.

After all, you want to depress votes for Bernie and boost them for Hillary. So of course you'll make such claims.

[DanTex]

24. Actually, no I don't want to depress votes for Bernie. I'm glad he's running.

But he can't win the GD, that's the reality. The other reality is that he's not going to win the nomination.

But other than his inability to win as a national candidate, I have nothing bad to say about him.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

25. If he can win the nomination, he can win the general. Ditto for anyone else who can win the primary.

If he can beat the Clinton machine, he can crush anything the Republicans put out there.

[DanTex]

26. Well, no, that's not true. But since he can't win the primary, it's a moot point.

[Mojorabbit]

29. + a kabillion. nt

[GoneFishin]

69. +1. "When you buy a hat like this I bet you get a free bowl of soup. Oh, but it looks great on you."

You provide a concrete and substantial list of concerns, and you get back underhanded digs and a veiled argument about inevitability, repeated ad nauseam.

[Oilwellian]

94. This n/t

[PowerToThePeople]

20. hmm.

[Gothmog]

28. I am also pleased at this change of heart

[cherokeeprogressive]

30. Go Bernie!

[Scurrilous]

32. Boink.

[Bonobo]

33. Actually bashing them without justification is what is bad.

Truth telling is NEVER bad.

[DanTex]

36. How about the truth that Bernie can't win a national election against the GOP.

Is that truth telling OK?

[Bonobo]

38. I suppose it is in a way.

But my opinion is that that is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Many said that a Black man with a Muslim name could not win.

Am I right?

[DanTex]

46. I wish I had the power to make self-fulfilling prophecies about presidential politics.

I don't think there's any comparison with Obama. He had major support early on, and big time fundraising ability. Sadly, you need that do get elected president. But the fact that it's sad doesn't make it any less true.

[Bonobo]

48. He had power only because he was given the place in the Democratic Convention.

The Dem party know-it-alls might follow our lead if there is a groundswell of support.

[DanTex]

50. OK, but he in fact was given that place. And he was far ahead of Bernie at this time 8 years ago.

He had support from a lot of top Democrats, and he could raise huge amounts of money. And he was appealing to independents. Bernie, a self-described socialist, doesn't have that.

[Bonobo]

52. Anyway, whatever.

There are many reasons to support Bernie besides his electability or lack thereof.

It has to do with shifting politics back in the left direction. I see no other force for doing so.

I also think that your thinking on this matter is exactly what maintains the constant creep to the right.

[DanTex]

54. Yes, shifting politics back to the left is a good reason to support Bernie.

And not wanting a Republican president is a good reason not to bash Hillary.

[Bonobo]

58. +1 -I think the are both correct statements. nt

[Generic Other]

44. It is not the truth. It's a hunch on your part

that may end up being the case as the odds are in your favor, but it is not a fact yet. Bernie is not usurping the throne. It is not a kingdom and Hillary is not the uncrowned queen.

[Bonobo]

47. Well said. nt

[DanTex]

49. Who said anything about usurping a throne? Except you?

I'm just saying that he doesn't have the cross-party appeal or the fundraising ability to compete with the Republicans. Sure, in one sense "anything can happen", for example, maybe aliens will land on earth and enslave us all. But in reality, that won't happen, and neither will Bernie win the presidency.

[Generic Other]

53. I don't want to vote for someone with "cross-party" appeal

Never again.

[DanTex]

57. And I don't want a Republican president.

[Generic Other]

86. Then don't vote for one with a D by their name

We never learn apparently. This time any candidate is going to have to convince me to vote for them with more than empty rhetoric.

[Hekate]

62. Oh goodie. Enjoy the next GOP administration. nt

[840high]

89. xactly - i'm for Bernie.

[GoneFishin]

68. It is a hunch, or worse, a seed being planted. I am impervious to those mind games. I will vote

for whoever represents my interests, in the primary and the general, period. If you do otherwise then you are being played.

[jeff47]

59. Sorry, truth is based in facts, not in guesses and gut feelings.

Your opinion is he can't.

Polling this early is extremely inaccurate, so it isn't "fact" yet either. Unless you think Giuliani won 2008.

We'll see what happens.

[tiredtoo]

65. No that is an opinon

The truth is based on facts.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. It would be nice to tout the candidates of our choice...

It would be nice to tout the candidates of our choice rather than demoralize, denigrate, and dehumanize the choices of others and those that choose them.

[Bonobo]

45. Also, false equivalence.

Not all criticisms are the same and not all are bashing.

This is a mindless bumper sticker OP that simply doesn't take ANY complexity into consideration.

[DanTex]

51. True. For example, "Bernie can't win the GD" isn't bashing, it's basic reality.

"Hillary serves her corporate masters and wants to sell out the working class" is mindless bashing.

[Bonobo]

56. Again, an ounce of truth to your post...

with about a pound of unnecessary rhetoric.

"Bernie can't win" is a self-destructive (self if you are a Progressive, that is) statement.

"Hillary serves her Corporate masters" is over-the-top rhetoric that would better be stated as "Hillary is too indebted to the Corporations and Wall Street."

[DanTex]

60. "Bernie can't win" is truthful. Weren't you all about the truth a few posts ago?

There's the double standard. Truth is "self-destructive" if it's truth about Bernie.

And I agree "Hillary serves her Corporate masters" is over-the-top rhetoric. Let's see what a few seconds of googling brings up...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=173166
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5953074
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024439309
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026593233#post2
...

[Bonobo]

66. I don't agree it is true. nt

[jeff47]

61. No, it's your opinion.

At the moment, there isn't any evidence to back it up. The closest we could get to evidence is polling, and this far from an election polling is wrong far more often than it is right.

If you are so interested in elevating the debate, you would be doing so instead of tearing down a candidate you do not like.

[DanTex]

64. How is acknowledging that Bernie can't win "tearing him down"?

I think he's a great person, just that he can't win the presidency. A lot of great people are like that. Martin Luther King couldn't have been elected president either. "Tearing down" is the daily barrage of threads about how horrible Hillary is because of email/HSBC/whatever.

[davidn3600]

70. Why couldnt he win?

We were hearing the same stuff about Obama... He can't win. He can't win. He can't win! We have to pick Hillary to make sure the GOP doesn't win!

Obama is:
...too inexperienced.
...too young.
...black.
...too liberal.
...can't raise enough money.

Now we hear Bernie will be labeled a socialist by opponents and that's a bad thing.
But then we don't worry about Hillary being labeled a feminist?

Both are toxic terms in a general election.

[DanTex]

72. For starters, he's a self-described socialist, and he doesn't have the fundraising capacity.

The comparison with Obama is completely mistaken. Obama did have huge fundraising capacity, from the beginning. He also had a lot of cross-party appeal, and had support from a lot of Democratic leaders. And he didn't call himself a socialist. And he had a charisma that Sanders doesn't have.

[ucrdem]

73. Secondly, do we know he really wants to?

Is he really prepared to spend the next ten years of his life focused on the top job? Cali says he doesn't have a hope in hell and isn't running to win. If that is so he shouldn't be running.

[jeff47]

71. It is "tearing down" because it currently has no facts to back it up.

Instead, you are insisting he be ignored because of your opinion.

We don't know yet if he is sufficiently appealing to win. Polls are wrong the vast majority of the time this far from an election.

Remember, a washed-up old actor couldn't win. And he lost his first attempt. Then he won and became the god to a generation.

[DanTex]

74. Of course there are facts to back it up.

He's a self-described socialist (a bad word in middle America), he doesn't have big-time fundraising capacity, he's far more liberal that most people in swing states, and his poll numbers are close to zero.

There are more facts to back up the claim that Bernie can't win than any of the Hillary smears going around. Moreover, saying that Bernie can't win isn't a "smear". A "smear" is, for example, saying that Hillary obeys her corporate masters.

[jeff47]

76. Golly, it's almost like I specifically addressed those.

He's a self-described socialist (a bad word in middle America)

Not so much anymore. It's been demonized so much by conservatives that many "wrong track" voters are interested in it.

he doesn't have big-time fundraising capacity,

Yeah, that's why Jerry Brown lost his race for governor. He didn't come close to his opponent in fundraising.....except he won. In fact, the big conservative fundraising juggernaut loses a lot more than it wins.

he's far more liberal that most people in swing states

Except those evil "liberal" policies actually poll quite well.

and his poll numbers are close to zero.

Yeah, it's really too bad that the poll numbers perfectly predicted Giuliani beating Clinton in 2008. Did we bother having an election, or just go with what early polls reported?

A "smear" is, for example, saying that Hillary obeys her corporate masters.

Nah, you're defining "smear" far too tightly here. Asking why she didn't propose any legislation while in the Senate to address DADT or other similar issues is now defined as a "smear".

Right now, we don't know. Probability is not on Sander's side, but probability is not fact.

[DanTex]

79. Yeah, but you were wrong. He won't even come close to winning the primary. You'll see.

Electability (and Bernie's lack of it) are legitimate and important issues. In fact, arguably the most important issue, since whoever becomes president will be pulling left against the Republican congress. And the only argument in favor of Bernie's electability is "anything can happen." Not very strong.


As for Hillary, sure, asking why she didn't propose certain legislation as Senator is fair. Talking about her "corporate masters" is straight-up bashing. And if you don't believe that happens on DU, use google. So is the nonsense about her donors banking with HSBC, and the rest of the idiocy that gets thrown at her every day.

[jeff47]

80. Electability isn't measurable.

Again, a washed-up third rate actor who already lost the nomination once became the right wing's god when he won against an incumbent. He wasn't very "electable" either.

In fact, arguably the most important issue, since whoever becomes president will be pulling left against the Republican congress.

Yeah, remember how Bill Clinton dragged the country to the left and didn't sign NAFTA and didn't gut welfare?

How about how Obama dragged the country to the left and didn't pass Bob Dole's healthcare reform bill. Such a leftist idea that Romney passed it first. And now he's "pulling left" on another free trade deal.

In fact, arguably the most important issue, since whoever becomes president will be pulling left against the Republican congress.

Early polling is wrong 90% of the time. You are using early polling as part of your measure of electability, and declaring something that is only right 10% of the time to be "fact".

As for Hillary, sure, asking why she didn't propose certain legislation as Senator is fair.

Not according to many of her fans on DU. And if you don't believe that happens on DU, use google.

[DanTex]

85. It's estimatable, though. Like I said, you'll see.

And beyond "anything can happen", there's no plausible argument in favor of Bernie's electability. You certainly haven't made one. But you are right that Steven Seagal has as much chance of being elected president as Bernie Sanders. Good point. I agree.

And, yes, Obama has been pulling congress to the left. Most of what he has proposed has gone nowhere, thanks to the GOP. The same will happen with either Hillary or Bernie. The difference between the two, as president, will be much smaller than the difference between either one and a Republican.

[ucrdem]

87. The rationale behind his candidacy is not compelling.

To be perfectly honest nobody here seems to know what it is.

[hrmjustin]

77. Unfortunately the bashing won't end soon.

Challenging is good and right to do but bashing is wrong but unfortunately won't end soon.

[Jamastiene]

78. There is nothing about Bernie Sanders' policies or actions to "bash," as you call it.

But, keep trying to deflect the fact that centrists and conservatives have had complete control of the Democratic Party for decades now. Some of us are just happy to finally have a candidate that doesn't tell liberals in the party to STFU.

[SidDithers]

81. DU rec...nt

Sid

[Rex]

83. The DU!!!!!!!!!!

[ozone_man]

88. It's fine to hold Democrats

to the ideals of the party. When a Democrat acts more like a Republican, I say let the bashing begin.

[840high]

92. +1

[cstanleytech]

93. I wont object to Bernie but we should be asking all of the candidates on what they plan to do

to deal with a republican House and Senate that has shown itself unwilling to help most Americans unless you have a net worth over a million dollars.

[TexasTowelie]

95. Locking thread.

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