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Fri May 1, 2015, 03:07 PM

I hope that Bernie is capable of being shallow.

Whether you like it or not, presidential politics is overwhelmingly determined on image - not substance. We already know Bernie Sanders has substance. What remains to be seen is whether he can translate the substance of his views into a larger, shallower, more broadly-applicable image that convinces people who don't know very much that he is their candidate.

If he is serious, then learning how to be shallow will be the subject of his study for the campaign. If his only intent is to "steer the debate," then he will fail: Hillary Clinton will not learn anything, no matter what. She has proven that too many times over now. She learns nothing. At most he would make her use some unfamiliar vocabulary for a while before reverting to form. So I hope that his candidacy is serious - that he intends to be President of the United States.

If so, he needs to quickly start learning how not to be so genuine. How to instead spread his substance more thinly, into more shallow threads that normal, uninformed people can relate to. That is the reality of politics in this country. If he plays the self-gratifying game of running the campaign he wants rather than the campaign we need, then nothing will happen. He will be just another lightweight in a long list of them.

Bernie, be the candidate we need. Whatever you've been before, whatever you want to be, forget that and be what we need. Don't be another lightweight making symbolic points. Fight so hard and so deeply you sicken yourself. Let people into your campaign whose soulless mercenary hearts make you sick.

This is what it is. Don't be our ennobling loss. Rise to the day. You're all we've got. Don't repeat the stupidities of history, and don't embarrass us by being a new Ralph Nader.

Win. That is all we require of you.

53 replies, 3103 views

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Arrow 53 replies Author Time Post
Reply I hope that Bernie is capable of being shallow. (Original post)
True Blue Door May 2015 OP
immoderate May 2015 #1
go bernie go May 2015 #2
True Blue Door May 2015 #51
LanternWaste May 2015 #3
True Blue Door May 2015 #5
Bluenorthwest May 2015 #4
True Blue Door May 2015 #6
seabeyond May 2015 #7
True Blue Door May 2015 #8
seabeyond May 2015 #9
True Blue Door May 2015 #11
seabeyond May 2015 #13
True Blue Door May 2015 #15
seabeyond May 2015 #18
True Blue Door May 2015 #25
AgingAmerican May 2015 #10
True Blue Door May 2015 #12
AgingAmerican May 2015 #16
betterdemsonly May 2015 #14
True Blue Door May 2015 #17
betterdemsonly May 2015 #19
True Blue Door May 2015 #20
betterdemsonly May 2015 #21
True Blue Door May 2015 #22
True Blue Door May 2015 #23
True Blue Door May 2015 #24
peacebird May 2015 #26
True Blue Door May 2015 #28
peacebird May 2015 #29
True Blue Door May 2015 #31
peacebird May 2015 #38
True Blue Door May 2015 #46
peacebird May 2015 #48
True Blue Door May 2015 #50
magical thyme May 2015 #33
True Blue Door May 2015 #40
A-Schwarzenegger May 2015 #27
A-Schwarzenegger May 2015 #30
Katashi_itto May 2015 #32
True Blue Door May 2015 #36
undeterred May 2015 #34
True Blue Door May 2015 #41
L0oniX May 2015 #35
True Blue Door May 2015 #42
stage left May 2015 #37
A-Schwarzenegger May 2015 #39
True Blue Door May 2015 #43
stage left May 2015 #52
Enrique May 2015 #44
True Blue Door May 2015 #45
Enrique May 2015 #47
True Blue Door May 2015 #49
A-Schwarzenegger May 2015 #53

Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Fri May 1, 2015, 03:14 PM

1. You rang?

 



--imm

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Fri May 1, 2015, 03:16 PM

2. I disagree.

 

People are tired of the phony banter.

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Response to go bernie go (Reply #2)

Sun May 3, 2015, 08:45 PM

51. It's true that we here are tired of phony banter.

"People", however, watch The Kardashians and celebrate royal weddings.

Ignore them all you want, those people will not go away, and they do vote.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Fri May 1, 2015, 03:22 PM

3. We often pine for a politician speaking beyond the lowest common demonstrator

 

We often pine for a politician speaking beyond the lowest common demonstrator, and yet as soon as we we perceive that happening, we criticize them for speaking beyond the lowest common denominator.

I don't want ordinary in any candidate I eventually choose, and I certainly don't want more pandering.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #3)

Sun May 3, 2015, 12:06 PM

5. How a candidate speaks only matters until you know who they are.

We already know Bernie is the real thing. Now what matters is everything else.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Fri May 1, 2015, 03:31 PM

4. I don't share your cynicism. I also never call a Democratic Primary candiate 'Ralph Nader'

 

but that's just me.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #4)

Sun May 3, 2015, 12:07 PM

6. This is no cynicism.

This is presidential politics. Choose a candidate you trust, then win or go home.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Sun May 3, 2015, 12:08 PM

7. first, his asset is being authentic and second. anti clinton and obama and others about the shallow?

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #7)

Sun May 3, 2015, 01:40 PM

8. We already know he's authentic.

We need to know what else he is too, so we know if there's a basis for hope in his candidacy or if we're just going to make symbolic points for Hillary to rhetorical acknowledge and then ignore in her "Failing Upward Toward Victory" primary campaign (which would later become her "Avoiding Defeat Until Defeated" general election campaign).

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #8)

Sun May 3, 2015, 01:43 PM

9. he isnt selling to du. he is selling to the nation. i stand that his asset is his authenticity. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #9)

Sun May 3, 2015, 01:50 PM

11. Authenticity is a beginning.

Seeing it as the entirety of the matter is a recipe for Kucinich-hood.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #11)

Sun May 3, 2015, 01:51 PM

13. i think it is the sell. not the beginning and sanders is no kucinich. nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #13)

Sun May 3, 2015, 01:54 PM

15. I agree, he is more than that.

However, his experience so far is with Vermont - a state with fewer people than attended the second Obama inauguration. It will be a steep learning curve.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #15)

Sun May 3, 2015, 01:59 PM

18. it will be. but i cannot stress enough what his voice does for our youth and first time voters.

 

it energizes them.

i think his conversation of middle class is also clear and succinct for our middle class across the nation.

i do not think he even compares to the spaceship discussion.

we just disagree on this one.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #18)

Sun May 3, 2015, 06:05 PM

25. I have more confidence in him than I had in Howard Dean in 2004.

I see no immediate showstoppers. There is definitely room for hope to grow.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Sun May 3, 2015, 01:47 PM

10. "Don't embarass us by having depth"

 

DOH!

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #10)

Sun May 3, 2015, 01:50 PM

12. I'm saying the exact opposite.

Don't embarrass us by being so shallow as to think personal qualities are a substitute for the ability to communicate with large audiences in a political race.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #12)

Sun May 3, 2015, 01:56 PM

16. Ah, I see it now

 

Excellent!

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Sun May 3, 2015, 01:54 PM

14. Nader lost because he was a third party candidate, not because he wasn't as phony as a dlcer. n/t

 

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Response to betterdemsonly (Reply #14)

Sun May 3, 2015, 01:59 PM

17. He would have lost as a Democratic nominee too.

Same as George McGovern, Eugene McCarthy, and every other candidate whose political talents were unequal to the ambition of their values.

There's a difference between wanting to speak and wanting to do, and they're not always compatible. We sometimes mistake the former for the latter, and fail to appreciate the latter if it's not accompanied by the former.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #17)

Sun May 3, 2015, 02:03 PM

19. The dlc has racked up quite a few losses too.

 

Grimes, Nunn and Burke were all New Democrats that run on not being republican. All lost. Doesn't stop them from running more and more of them.

You're no more objective than anyone else. The dlc is an ideology, not a style. You really prefer them because you like centerist policies. You are very right wing on foreign policy issues. Obama ran as a progressive and tracked right after the election. So did Clinton the First.

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Response to betterdemsonly (Reply #19)

Sun May 3, 2015, 02:09 PM

20. I know, that's why I support Bernie Sanders.

That's why I want him to win over people who might do the wrong things out of concerns about electability.

I thought I made that clear.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #20)

Sun May 3, 2015, 02:22 PM

21. So you say

 

Thanks for your CONCERN?

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Response to betterdemsonly (Reply #21)

Sun May 3, 2015, 02:23 PM

22. Are you calling me a liar?

If you want to call me a liar, then do it outright and take responsibility for it. Don't just post abusive innuendo because you don't want to contribute anything substantive to an important conversation.

I'm trying to have a conversation about getting Bernie Sanders elected President, and you're more interested in attacking me than talking about that. Be thankful I prefer to talk things out rather than Alerting, because we both know you crossed the line right there.

By the way, an apology would be appreciated.

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Response to betterdemsonly (Reply #21)

Sun May 3, 2015, 03:00 PM

23. Let me reiterate: An apology is required.

Both of your above comments totally ignore the substance of what I say, and when confronted by the difference between your reaction and that substance, you attacked my integrity instead of simply getting back to the issue at hand.

An apology is required, in a timely manner.

If none is forthcoming, I will assume you intend to continue behaving like that, and I have no interest in submitting to that abuse or participating in meaningless diversions from the issues. You'll be on Total Ignore, so I won't be bothered again by your comments.

Failure to respond in a timely manner will be interpreted as the latter.

Have a nice day.

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Response to betterdemsonly (Reply #21)

Sun May 3, 2015, 04:26 PM

24. Your silence is heard loud and clear. Goodbye.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Sun May 3, 2015, 06:07 PM

26. Totally disagree. It is his authenticity that will bring victory.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #26)

Sun May 3, 2015, 06:09 PM

28. How is his authenticity different from the authenticity of every other candidate

who ever lost trying to run as an alternative?

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #28)

Sun May 3, 2015, 06:12 PM

29. Fortunately Bernie IS Bernie, so I have no reason to worry he will follow your advice

Have a nice evening!

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Response to peacebird (Reply #29)

Sun May 3, 2015, 06:27 PM

31. It all depends if he intends to win or not, doesn't it?

Winning will require convincing people very different from you and I to vote for him.

People very different from the Vermont electorate that elevated him to national exposure.

You can dismiss those facts all you want, but they won't go away.

They will draw the line between a symbolic challenge that slightly alters Hillary Clinton's rhetoric for a few months before she runs hard right in the general election, and a meaningful general election. They would also draw a hard line between a lightweight candidacy whose only purpose is to make us feel good about losing, and a major reform Presidency whose challenges would be so massive they would make getting elected seem like the easy part.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #31)

Sun May 3, 2015, 06:48 PM

38. Your concern is duly noted

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Response to peacebird (Reply #38)

Sun May 3, 2015, 07:34 PM

46. Your contempt for critical thinking is duly noted.

I really hope his candidacy isn't shaped by this kind of attitude.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #46)

Sun May 3, 2015, 07:59 PM

48. LOL! "Critical thinking" says Bermie should run as a shallow person instead of as himself?


As I said, your CONCERN is duly noted.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #48)

Sun May 3, 2015, 08:23 PM

50. Critical thinking says politics is not a support group.

I'm not aware of a single successful candidate in US presidential history who "ran as himself" in the puerile way you seem to want it.

Or was Jimmy Carter really some folksy down-home peanut farmer with just some aw-shucks-golly-gee...nuclear engineering degree?

FDR, using painful mechanical contraptions to stand up at campaign stops so the public wouldn't see him in a wheelchair, and standing before corporate executives berating the Hoover administration's obstruction of free trade rather than telling them to stop exploiting workers.

John F. Kennedy talking all about how the Eisenhower administration was soft on the Commies, that was legit?

Just stop using the word "concern" as a magical talisman to avoid having to make intelligent arguments.

Bernie Sanders has a lot more work to do than "being himself," and I seriously hope he can count on better advice than that even if not mine in particular.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #28)

Sun May 3, 2015, 06:31 PM

33. he probably doesn't talk about seeing UFOs

 

also, he looks like the grandfather I always wished I'd had.
his hair is not an obvious wig or dye job.
he doesn't suffer fools.
and he's tall.

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #33)

Sun May 3, 2015, 07:09 PM

40. That is definitely helpful.

Still, in shallow media terms he doesn't have a lot of image assets.

Sometimes you can tell right away if someone will win or lose. I see no decisive factors either way with him, but actually pulling it off will require some fancy footwork.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Sun May 3, 2015, 06:07 PM

27. "quickly start learning how not to be so genuine"

too late

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Sun May 3, 2015, 06:22 PM

30. I know good political humor when I see it.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Sun May 3, 2015, 06:29 PM

32. I agree. There is a shallow factor to overcome.

 

The current leading candidate is incredibly shallow.

A master of being shallow in fact. A true leader in that regard.

Can Bernie increase his own shallowness to match that?

Honestly I don't think so.

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #32)

Sun May 3, 2015, 06:45 PM

36. Substance leveraged into image is stronger than purely fabricated image.

But it still has to be leveraged. You can't just dump substance on a table like a chunk of bloody raw meat and have the average citizen respond positively - a lot depends on presentation.

A substantial meal well-presented is more appetizing than the most artistically-arranged faux-food on a golden plate. He doesn't have to out-shallow her, just prove he can compete for the votes of shallow people.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Sun May 3, 2015, 06:36 PM

34. Morally serious people don't do shallow.

I don't think Sanders has a shallow side, nor should he cultivate one.

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Response to undeterred (Reply #34)

Sun May 3, 2015, 07:25 PM

41. Then why did FDR go out of his way to hide the wheelchair?

Truly morally serious people do shallow constantly, because it's more important as a leader to communicate with people than to gratify themselves and those whose ideas and depth are identical to theirs.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Sun May 3, 2015, 06:39 PM

35. Bernie is not going to hold his finger up to follow the DC bubble political wind.

 

On the other hand your op slant may be a result of reading too many Manny ops.

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #35)

Sun May 3, 2015, 07:27 PM

42. Speaking of shallow...

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Sun May 3, 2015, 06:47 PM

37. Is this satire?

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Response to stage left (Reply #37)

Sun May 3, 2015, 06:53 PM

39. Parody

of a hip political consultant.
And a very fine parody at that.

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Response to stage left (Reply #37)

Sun May 3, 2015, 07:28 PM

43. Is your question "double-secret" satire?

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #43)

Sun May 3, 2015, 09:36 PM

52. If you want it to be.

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Response to True Blue Door (Original post)

Sun May 3, 2015, 07:29 PM

44. he needs to talk more about Jesus

and sports.

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Response to Enrique (Reply #44)

Sun May 3, 2015, 07:32 PM

45. Not yet, but eventually he'll have to deal with people who love either or both.

And not just tell them they're idiots for thinking those things are politically important.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #45)

Sun May 3, 2015, 07:42 PM

47. he has never insulted anyone like that in the past

why would he do that now?

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Response to Enrique (Reply #47)

Sun May 3, 2015, 08:09 PM

49. He wouldn't deliberately insult anybody.

But it's very easy to miscalculate the difference between courageous passion for your own views and ignorance of the views of others.

That's why people with strong reformist convictions often have a hard time communicating with the apolitical public: A lot of times they think they're owed support because they're right, and the reality in a democracy is that they're not owed anything - they have to convince a certain number of people, no matter how mindless or frivolous the final 10% of those people are.

Nor can a candidate complain that voters aren't treating them fairly, nor can they ignore the problem - pretending the gulf in mutual understanding isn't there won't stop a candidate from falling into it. They have to be aware of how others think, and communicate with them in ways that are neither phony nor condescending from the perspective of the other person. Or at very least assemble a team that can manage this for them.

So, yeah, he will definitely at some point have to talk about Jesus, sports, and pop culture if he gets as far as we hope, not because they objectively mean anything, but because they mean something to a lot of people who are not strongly locked into one side or the other.

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