Bernie Sanders: What's Wrong With America Looking More Like Scandinavia?

[madfloridian]

What's Wrong With America Looking More Like Scandinavia?

During an interview on ABC's "This Week," host George Stephanopoulos asked the 73-year-old Vermont senator if it's really possible for someone like him to be elected president. Sanders, who identifies as a democratic socialist, announced his White House run last week.

"Well, so long as we know what democratic socialism is," he said. "And if we know that in countries, in Scandinavia, like Denmark, Norway, Sweden, they are very democratic countries, obviously. The voter turnout is a lot higher than it is in the United States. In those countries, health care is the right of all people. And in those countries, college education, graduate school is free."

When Stephanopoulos said Republicans were likely to jump all over Sanders for saying the U.S. should be more like Scandinavia, the senator said he has no problem with that.

"That's right. And what's wrong with that?" Sanders said. "What's wrong when you have more income and wealth equality? What's wrong when they have a stronger middle class in many ways than we do, higher minimum wage than we do, and they are stronger on the environment than we do?"

.....As The Huffington Post's Jonathan Cohn notes, there's an important distinction between a democratic socialist and what many Americans may think of when they hear the word "socialist." Democratic socialism is a milder, more aspirational form of the ideology. Instead of actively pursuing the goal of government running large industries, a democratic socialist focuses on far less radical objectives, like making the welfare state more generous and limiting the influence of money on politics."

[seabeyond]

1. Scandinavia has some real sexist and racist issues. you know. social issues. i guess if we ignore

that, then ok. but.... i always like to be honest, with that one.

seeing that i have real issues with the social issues.

[madfloridian]

3. We have serious ones in this country also.

[seabeyond]

6. yes we do. and still, we are ahead of them in this.... but certainy over the last decade

we are rising to meet up the european countries in this. i would appreciate, expect that to be stated out loud, if nothing else for education and awareness.

[cali]

9. bullshit. two words: prison industry

we are way worse then any Scandinavian country on that and that is one of the biggest pieces of the problem.

[seabeyond]

10. oh cali.... and here you are.

[Violet_Crumble]

215. And Cali brought up a very good point.

I don't understand how you can think that those countries are lagging behind the US when it's a fact they're miles ahead. Apart from what Cali pointed out those countries all have something the US hasn't got, which is paid parental leave. How is that not a social issue that affects women?

[newthinking]

121. I agree. One thing we (liberals) need to also wake up to. The rise of the right in Europe came from

the US in no small part. Most Americans are very ignorant to the fact that our right wing groups (Republican Institute, "Think tanks", NGOs, etc) have been operating for decades in Europe with the same tactics as here and they have been very effective in helping previously marginalized right wing political factions to move forward there.

My eyes were opened up to this when a friend of mine (who did not know my politics) said he could hook me up with a job with the International Republicans in the area of Eastern Europe I had spent time in. I was SHOCKED. I asked him "You mean *our* Republicans are building institutions there? To which I learned is the case. Much of it done on *our* taxes!

Wake up folks. Our Right wing and corporate forces have been way ahead of liberal international institutions and have created a higher demand for greed based economics all over the world.

They are very active in our "Democracy promotion" and "color revolutions. Everything they touch turns to chaos because they are not really democratic forces. Question everything!

[BlancheSplanchnik]

185. omg.

Ugh!

[Dream Girl]

191. Thanks foe posting. I wasn't aware of this. Could you please start a post on this.

I spent time in Sweden years ago and so I'm kind of shocked at the rise in the right wing there. It makes perfect sense that the global (vast right wing conspiracy) right is organize in Europe and that those efforts are being coordinated from the Good old USA. I would really like to know more about his.

[Rockyj]

218. YES look @ Canada's Harper

& Britain's Cameron! All creepy very right wing!

[madfloridian]

11. In women's rights we are going backwards.

[seabeyond]

13. yes we are. i am well aware of that. hence my need to stand on social justice, while trying to

support sanders.

it is very challenging with his other supporters on du. i think i have a place though, even addressing women and girls rights being taken away, along with their lives.

hence, my pointing out that though economic justice is pretty in those countries, not so much with social justice.

[NaturalHigh]

53. How is social justice not so pretty in those countries, as you allege?

You keep saying that (over and over and over), but you have provided no examples.

[daredtowork]

144. The Unit by Ninni Holmqvist is a great dystopian novel

that describes the sexism and agism lurking in Scandinavian socialist policies.

EDIT TO ADD: I still think pursuing some Scandinavian style socialism in the U.S. would be a huge improvement over what we have now, which is people falling through the cracks.

[davidn3600]

231. It's probably because many of these countries have decriminalized prostitution

It's amazing how SOME feminists are more interested in controlling your consensual sexual activities than the Christian right-wing.

[NaturalHigh]

232. Yes, it's amazing. One would think...

that consent by both parties involved would be their focus, but they seem offended that people are having guilt-free sex. I can't understand it.

For many, I think that it's the idea of sex itself that gets them riled.

[Chathamization]

233. In Sweden and Norway the buyer is breaking the law, not the prostitute. If someone wants to keep

prostitution illegal but protect prostitutes (rather than a legalize and regulate approach, like in Germany), it seems like Norway and Sweden have the best approach.

[davidn3600]

234. That's disputable

Im not really going to get into it much here since we're derailing the OP's topic. But sex workers, and even independent studies, have a very different opinion of the Nordic model compared to what feminists and governments are saying. There is doubt the Nordic model can work very well outside Sweden because Sweden has many other laws concerning gender equality issues that are playing into it. Norway hasn't seen the success with this law that Sweden has seen because of the cultural difference. Prostitution is rampant in Oslo and some say the police are still looking the other way.

In most western countries, it is already illegal for men to buy sex and police can't control it. You really want to dedicate more manpower and resources to police to bust down doors of consenting adults having sex? I mean, that's fucking stupid, especially with so many other problems.

[Dont call me Shirley]

62. No we're not, the gop is taking us backwards, especially women!

[seabeyond]

65. we as a nation, not personally or a party. pretty soon i am gonna be accused of saying democrats

are responsible, regardless what i have said the last three years.

this subthread is absurd.

[Dont call me Shirley]

74. If you wanna discuss this create an OP about it, not as a sub-thread on this OP.

My father was from Scandinavia. I am quite harshly aware of the hardcore blood of, especially, misogyny pulsing through his vessels. His quiet racism was harder to distinguish. No social democratic liberal was he!

I feel so fortunate to be born with the liberal inclusive mind and heart I have.

[pnwmom]

119. Why? There are no rules about creating OP's vs. subthreads. nt

[Dont call me Shirley]

219. True, not trying to be a thread purist

But the whining about it. The subject would get more coverage as it's own OP.

[seabeyond]

145. i did. more people just interested saying i called sanders a racist and sexist.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026614014

at least an hour ago. i know. cause my son called and has talked to me for hours.... lol, not that the definition of social justice, vs economic justice is of interest. that is not the point of the posts in this subthread

[Enthusiast]

111. The GOP is taking us backwards on every front. And at an alarming rate.

[newthinking]

125. See my post above. The GOP are extremely active in Europe too. There is a correlation to the rise

of right wing parties gaining ground in Europe and our right wing parties here in the US. Most liberals are ignorant to the prolific breadth of the Republican brand and the work of their international branches in changing the general tenor of modern capitalism in many places in the world.

As I mentioned in the other thread my eyes were opened up when, more than 10 years ago, I was offered a job connection with the International Republican Institute in Eastern Europe (my friend, who was a work colleague, was unaware of my politics).

Not just their institutions but they have partnered and infiltrated neo-liberal institutions like the IMF and World bank and those institutions are very much involved in changing the way that European countries work.

[Enthusiast]

133. International Fascism.

[Dont call me Shirley]

221. It's very easy to see the pattern, they use the same MO all over the world.

[Enthusiast]

225. They're in control of this nation. They just have to exercise caution lest the people realize it.

[L0oniX]

5. Like they will ignore Baltimore?

[Township75]

8. Someone from Vermont may not see any issue with an almost totally white country

Those countries he refers to have very limited racial diversity, much like his state.

[cali]

12. sorry, not a racist. Am a Vermonter

Vermont is slowly changing. It has become more diverse. Sure, it's only about 3 percentage points less white than it was a decade or so ago, but consider how few people move here. It's cold. It's rural. that limits its appeal to most people whatever their ethnicity.

But to suggest that people from Vermont are more racist as YOU do? False and dumb, hon.

[Township75]

14. I didn't suggest that you nor any other Vermonter were racist

I did point out that the state lacks diversity much like the countries he refers too. That is not something we should strive for.

[cui bono]

98. Really? Now you're trying to say that Bernie is striving for a white country?

People are really scared of Bernie. All of a sudden - since he's thrown his hat in the ring - he's not for social issues and he's racist and sexist.

[Enthusiast]

112. WTF is right!

People are showing their true colors.

[nxylas]

143. I think we all know which aspects of Scandinavian countries Bernie wants to emulate

"America should be more like Scandinavia" means something different when Sanders says it than if, say, Sean Hannity had said it.

[pangaia]

148. :>)))))

pretty gosh darn good, you did.

That is all that need to be said about this whole thing.

[appalachiablue]

217. +1 People with a brain & knowledge realize what Sanders means in regard to Scandanavia.

[7962]

173. I knew it wouldnt take long as soon as I read the OP title

RACISTS RACISTS EVERYWHERE!!!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

39. Scandinavia is becoming much more racially diverse.

They have been accepting a lot of refugees/immigrants from the Middle East, especially Pakistan and Iraq, since the '80s. That's what stirred up that right-wing lunatic Anders Breivik (the guy who bombed the government building and shot a bunch of kids a few years ago - inspired in part by the writings of Pamela Geller and her ilk). Predictably, this has stirred up some tensions in some parts, but they are adjusting. My point is, they are not a completely homogeneous collection of blue-eyed blonds any more.

[pampango]

94. Immigrants are a higher percentage of Sweden's population (16%) than in the US (14%).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_immigrant_population

The ten fastest growing groups of foreign-born residents in Sweden between 2013 and 2014 were the following nationalities:

Syria (+25,923)
Eritrea (+5,235)
Somalia (+3,685)
Poland (+3,522)
Afghanistan (+3,299)
Romania (+1,367)
India (+1,347)
Iraq (+1,232)
Iran (+1,225)
Thailand (+1,155)

The only significant resistance to immigration in Sweden is from the far-right political party, as in most European countries.

[yuiyoshida]

196. Surprised that Hong Kong Immigrants are not listed there...

they are mostly every where these days. When I visited Scotland a few years ago, I was surprised to find a Chinese Restaurant in Inverness.

[cui bono]

96. Bernie marched for civil rights in the 60's so you need not attempt to implicate him as racist

or racially unaware just because he is a Senator from Vermont.

He was also born in Brooklyn. Is that racially diverse enough for you?

[madfloridian]

110. ....

[appalachiablue]

235. Candidate and Hair doing well, both are authentic. T-Shirts selling well too.

*BERNIE FOR PRESIDENT-HAIR, T-SHIRTS, different colors and sizes.

LINK...http://www.redbubble.com/people/jrstees/works/14122148-bernie-sanders-for-president-hair?grid_pos=2&p=t-shirt

[emulatorloo]

140. Well said

[uponit7771]

141. wtf does that mean? Someone who's black or who marched or who has black children does't equate to be

...being racially perfect.

I'd lik to see more context but no... I don't want America "looking" more Scandinavian

[cui bono]

149. So you think Bernie wants a white America? Did you even read the article?

Or did you just glom on to the word "looking" from the headline, which isn't even in any of the Sanders quotes.

Why are you attempting to paint him as a racist?

[awoke_in_2003]

160. They didn't even read the OP...

They saw "more like Scandinavia" and went right to race.

[BrotherIvan]

157. Then you don't want a country with the best markers of social equality and

women's rights in the world?

[SMC22307]

161. I didn't know Bernie marched on Washington.

Sanders was an organizer for the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC) and participated in the historic March on Washington in 1963 as a 22-year-old student at the University of Chicago. "It was a question for me of just basic justice — the fact that it was not acceptable in America at that point that you had large numbers of African Americans who couldn't vote, who couldn't eat in a restaurant, whose kids were going to segregated schools, who couldn't get hotel accommodations living in segregated housing," he told the Burlington Free Press. "That was clearly a major American injustice and something that had to be dealt with."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2015/04/29/399818581/5-things-you-should-know-about-bernie-sanders

A young Bernie Sanders attends a meeting with civil rights activists from the University of Chicago.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/recent-business/the-week-in-review-082313

[pocoloco]

220. Wow!! I had no idea Bernie was at the Univ. of Chicago

at the same time many of our future Neocons were getting their education there.

I bet he pissed some of them off!!

[moondust]

103. One big reason

Scandinavia is not more diverse is because of the long, cold winters short on daylight. I was in Oslo at summer solstice once and it never did get completely dark that night; the opposite is true in the dead of winter.

Because of the climate I think many immigrants from Africa and the Middle East have settled in European countries farther to the south where the weather is not as harsh and the quality of life is still quite good.

Of note, Scandinavian countries are typically among the most generous in terms of per capita foreign aid.

[Diclotican]

199. moondust

moondust

The spring/early summer is great in Oslo - specially at summer solice, when you can sit out - almost the whole night - and have a great time - maybe even got some decent weather for a change, usually it rains at summer solice for some reason - but sometimes it match up - and you have one of this wonderfully summer nights who is warm and good - and where kids can play outside to midnight and more - and where it is somewhat dark, maybe a hour or two before the sun rise again...

The winter can be more or less the opposite - even though it is sun every day, or at least a rumor of sun every day - but it goes dark early every day - and it is often a long time before the heat is starting to come again...

But the summers - specially if you walk down to the oslo fjord - and take the boat out on the fjord - sailing along the ice-lands who is there, stepping off on one of them - with some prawns - majonese, some french bread - and just sit there eating the prawn and the french bread - and relax in the sun.... Thats is pure luck from my perspective...

Diclotican

[moondust]

209. Are you in Norway, Diclotican?

If so, it must be nice!

[L0oniX]

165. OFFS ...the race card ...really?

[7962]

177. He's merely pointing out there style of government. Nothing more.

They happen to be mostly white. So what? WHy WOULD it be an "issue"? Since when was it a problem to simply be white? If there's a better example of what he's talking about elsewhere then start an OP with THAT highly diverse country or region highlighted.
Racial makeup has absolutely nothing to do with Sanders point.

[smokey nj]

183. She knows what he damn well what he meant.

[stonecutter357]

210. You Should Be Ashamed Of Yourself.

I did not do anything for you to Ban me from your precious little group.
You where just waiting to ban someone because someone was banned from a Hillery group.
Shame on you,you wanted revenge. PS i love Bernie and will be glad to vote for him.

[smokey nj]

216. Dude, grow up.

[stonecutter357]

237. Your hatred is blinding you.

[gregcrawford]

229. You want to be real careful...

... about making blanket generalizations like that about Vermonters. THIS Vermonter does not take kindly to it. There are more people of color here, relative to our small population, than flatlanders who don't do their homework may realize. And there are sizable populations of refugees who have been welcomed here and who love their new home because of it.

[BrotherIvan]

15. Oh dear God

That's what you came up with???

[seabeyond]

17. you have made it clear social justice issues are not relevant. as i have made it clear they are my

top consideration.

whether in a conversation about sanders or any other conversation, bringing up these countries economic justice issues, i always mention their failings in social justice issue.

do not take it personally. it is just my issue and what i do

is there a problem with that? am i not allowed?

[cui bono]

33. You have a very skewed idea of what economic justice is though.

You say it is only about white males. I asked you elsewhere and you never answered so I'll ask again, why do you leave out minorities and women when you define economic justice? I've never seen that done before.

And also, how do you separate the two, economic and social justice? I see them as being completely entwined.

[seabeyond]

42. middle/upper class and men.

yes. hte majority of which are white men. if that is how you want to address it. but, it is a fact. by definition.

now... ALL i dared to do was point out that these countries fail at the social justice aspect and would behoove all us to be aware.

i do that always, when holding european countries up as a go to.

i think it is important to be informed, educated and aware.

i have had how many people attack, a statement i consistently make on this subject.

no.... i am done here. i am so fuckin done being told simply mentioning it is me saying sanders is a racist and sexist.

i have more than tried to express my points without the emotional outcry. done. five? six? accusations in a little subthread because i dared to point out these countries fail. and maybe we should be aware of it.

[NaturalHigh]

50. Since you "think it is important to be informed, educated and aware"...

How do " these countries fail at the social justice aspect"? With all of your objections you should be able to give us some examples, right?

[cui bono]

54. I want to know why you leave out minorities and women when you define economic justice.

You still haven't answered that. As long as you claim that that is how Sanders views it I will continue to ask you why your definition is sexist and racist.

That is NOT how Sanders views it.

You specifically said yesterday that Sanders is white and male and therefore that's what his idea of economic justice will benefit, white and male. You don't want to answer to it, then retract it and apologize in an OP. That is NOT what/who Sanders is fighting for. He fights for EVERYONE.

You want to continue to claim otherwise, provide some quotes or a video.

[Dragonfli]

120. Economic justice is about the lower classes having opportunity and fair wages

The upper and middle classes are more frequently appealed to by Republicans and third way half Republicans when they talk about reforming welfare, or SS than they are targets of economic justice measures.

It is often the middle class that would gut programs because they are told lazy poor people (and the dog whistles that go with that) are to blame for the decline of their more comfortable class via all their hard earned tax dollars going to those people, the stupid ones buy it and cheer Clinton types for ending welfare as we know it, and Republicans for the war on food stamp recipients supposed life of luxury and pleasure cruises, they also fall for bi-partisan commissions to fix the budget by cutting SS even tho SS is a separate fund entirely.

They lie to the middle and upper classes to get them to fight the lower classes and distract us all from the fact that all those tax dollars are almost entirely going to the top via corporate welfare rather than to the hardest working and most impoverished classes of all - the lower classes that have to work three jobs just to fall behind.

You are mistaken about what economic justice means, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you honestly think economic justice is about upper middle class people being able to buy that third vehicle (a Lexus) to go with the range rover and the family van, when it is more about people in my neighborhood where homelessness is rising, that third job is getting too hard for some to maintain, and the disabled or elderly are trying to live on five or six hundred dollars a month.

My neighborhood is in desperate need of economic justice, and I will tell you, my neighborhood is mostly people of color, single mothers, old people (the women among them receiving the least in SS) and kids with no job opportunities whatsoever, sure, their are some middle aged white men (I am a mostly white mixed race middle aged mongrel that passes as just tan), but even we are by no means middle class.

You don't have to worry that economic justice is a white middle class male thing, those that need it do not match that demographic, so it is a good thing that will help your favored causes as well and not something that fights against your issues.

[BrotherIvan]

127. My neighborhood looks the same way

Whites are in the minority and people are working their fingers to the bone just to survive. They want racial justice just as much as anyone, but no one would say that that is somehow seperate from economic justice. They want to see their children rather than working three jobs. They want their children to have a better life and go to college and get good jobs. They fear being one healthcare crisis away from living on the street. They are so tired yet they still lose sleep at night worrying about keeping a roof over their heads and the bills that never stop.

The black, brown and Asian people who make up my community are doing exactly what they've been told to do: work hard and life will be ok. But it's not ok, not by a longshot. And even though the current occupant of the White House isn't a white male, things have not really improved for them at all. And they would be less than thankful for white, upper middle class dilettantes telling them that they don't deserve to live anything but lives of desperation. They might get banned from this board with their response.

[Dragonfli]

129. "They might get banned from this board with their response."

LOL, so true! I am considered a bit of prick here as some of my replies can be harsh, but I am the most "diplomatic" person on my street, I really have had to tone down even my rhetoric or I would have been banned 10 years ago.

I have discussed these issues over coffee with my neighbors, and I would love to post the honest heartfelt replies to some of the crap spread around here, most such quotes would be a 7 to 0 hides (funny thing is, I would agree with most of it, but dare not speak such RAW truth)

[BrotherIvan]

137. Yes, when we are told that DU isn't representative of the country

Believe me, it goes BOTH ways. I don't take this place seriously really though I do encounter a smart poster who has some specialized knowledge now and then and it's like, damn, right on. But for the most part, there is a lot of group dynamics at play and navel gazing. And apparently, those who present themselves as experts should have their credentials checked.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

186. ^

Nice breath of clarity on the U.S.

[newthinking]

142. I understand what you are saying. But in regards to a presidential candidate it is not relavent

They are talking *economics*, not culture. They have their racial issues we have ours. That does not change the fact that most of their economic and democratic model is better than ours.

Social Democracy works better for people.

Parliamentary governance is also a more democratic model.

You really should take this discussion to another OP because it has diverted and really has little to do with the op.

[BrotherIvan]

36. Your assertion is 100% false

I know facts will do nothing to sway you, but just so no one else is swayed by nonsense, here it is. Women in Scandinavia are 1 million times better off than women in this country. How do I know all this? I've actually been there; I've actually seen it with my own eyes. Why? Because I have family in Denmark and I visit every year for Christmas and have traveled extensively throughout all of the countries (except Iceland). I didn't read an article or make a strange assumption. I have seen it living and breathing and women in Scandinavia are completely equal in the society. Their voices and their rights are never given a back seat in day to day life or by the government. Scandianavian women bow down to NO ONE and the gender dynamic is completely different than it is in the US.

All FIVE Nordic countries SWEEP the top five spots for gender equality in the world

http://www.thelocal.dk/20141028/denmark-top-five-gender-equality

Denmark is the fifth best country in the world for gender equality according to the World Economic Forum's Global Gender Gap 2014 report. Moving up from eighth to fifth place, Denmark made it an across-the-board sweep by the Nordic nations, with Iceland, Finland, Norway and Sweden taking the top four spots.

Education - a guaranteed right for all citizens through college (with a stipend for rent and books)
All Nordic countries reached 99 percent - 100 percent literacy for both sexes several decades ago, and girls fare just as well as boys in terms of access to primary and secondary education.

A living minimum wage so no one there works three jobs just to feed their families

Single payer healthcare with everything covered including birth control and womens health. EVERYTHING.

GUARANTEED reproductive rights (it's not even a question any more) more than most countries in the world

Family leave where US ranks at the absolute bottom while every country in Scandinavia is near the top



What Makes the Nordic Countries Gender Equality Winners?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/saadia-zahidi/what-makes-the-nordic-cou_b_4159555.html
The Nordic countries consistently stand out in the World Economic Forum's annual Global Gender Gap Report, which measures how well countries are doing at removing the obstacles that hold women back.

Gender equality in Sweden
https://sweden.se/society/gender-equality-in-sweden/
Sweden ranks as one of the world’s most gender-egalitarian countries, based on a firm belief that men and women should share power and influence equally. An extensive welfare system makes it easier for both sexes to balance work and family life.

I could write a post a mile long to show you that the statement that we should somehow not aspire to be more like Scandinavia because of "racism and sexism" is just flat out wrong. Are there racial tensions between immigrants, mainly those from Turkey and Islamic countries because of the recent violence and culture clash? Yes. There are. But is Scandinavia by ANY measure better for their working class than the US. YES!!

[madaboutharry]

58. I think one of the reasons you see this in the Nordic countries

is that they don't have the same degree of religious ideology woven into the fabric of their culture. Although the majority probably belong to a church, I doubt they have the same up by your own bootstraps and god rewards those who are righteous mentality. I know I didn't explain this that well, but I think you know what I mean.

[BrotherIvan]

66. You are correct

They are extremely secular for the most part and most definitely in government. The people I speak to there are horrified by the intrusion of religion here and the backward slide of rights. They truly look on us as a third world country because by their metric, we are.

[Nay]

70. True -- my friends in the Netherlands say that half the country is non-religious and the

other half is Catholic, but their Catholic churches are very mild and not strident -- they are there mainly for ceremonial purposes (weddings, funerals, etc.)

[Diclotican]

201. madaboutharry

madaboutharry

Most people in the nordic countries have a degree of religious belief - many is baptized as young children, maybe more out of tradition than because of a religious feber from the parents part - but religion is a personal matter in great deal - and most people will feel uncomfortable around people who show off their religion to much - something that could be a clash of culture when people who are used to a different attitude to religion is intruding on our personal space... Many people have no religious belief or connection to religion all together - even if they have been baptized as baby's - it is just not a thing for them....

I think some of it comes from the fact the nordic countries have had their share of "Nutters" who imposed their will on the majority - for a long time it was compulsory to wist the church every sunday - for hours at end - and if you did not - you could be arrested by the local sheriff - or the police if you lived in the city's - you could even be fined - if you counted to not take your time wisting the local church - and if you not followed it up - you could end up in a prison even - that last one was seldom used - because it cost the state to mutch.... But as the 1800s contained most of the countries started to be somewhat secular - mostly because of the influx of new knowledge - and that even the church itself was starting to moderate itself. And I also suspect the fact that we had a pressure valve in the ability to leave Norway - for the americans - that in most cases be the United States - ended most of the religious feber - as they for the most part by the end of the 1800s had emigrated to the americans - to make up a new frontier there instead of continue to be fanatical about it in the old country - who also was one of the poorest countries in the World at the spring of 1900s... 100 year later, Norway was one of the richest countries in Europe - and in the world..

In all - I think the nordic countries is rather secular in their views - and as first stated - religion is a private matter for most - and for the most part it is just not polite to make a fuzz about which church you belong to - or if you belong to any church at all... It is up to yourself and your own views to be honest...

Diclotican

[hifiguy]

61. The crickets are deafening,

aren't they? Some can never be moved by actual facts. They just "know." Just like the fundies and Foxbots do.

[BrotherIvan]

73. One should not claim the mantle if one is woefully misinformed

[hifiguy]

79. At this point it looks more like intentional trolling than anything else.

The admins might want to do something about it.

[BrotherIvan]

81. That is not for me to say

But apparently facts are kryptonite because I have yet to get an answer once they are presented.

[hifiguy]

84. You will wait until the heat death of the universe.

Guaranteed.

[BrotherIvan]

109. I'd take the half life of uranium

[Nay]

69. Thank you. I was searching for links, but yours are better than anything I can

come up with. I have longtime friends in the Netherlands, and when I read up above that women are worse off in the Scandinavian countries, I almost busted a gasket. THEY ARE A HUNDRED TIMES BETTER OFF than any woman here in the States. Just the welfare system itself keeps women and children out of poverty and allows women to work without any strains or stresses. Try that here?? You'll starve to death in a slum on $17 a week food stamps. And forget about child care and free school, so you can't even try to get out of the mess.

Please. Women in the Scandinavian countries are treated as truly equal citizens in every way, and can have much more meaningful lives than almost any woman here.

[BrotherIvan]

75. Not to mention

Their equivalent of social security is nearly $3000 a month, so seniors aren't in poverty. They don't have 40% of their schoolchildren in poverty like we do. By every metric, working class people are a million times better off in Scandinavia. It is the wealthy who lose out with high taxes compared to the US.

And to claim that Scandinavia is more racist than the US, one of the most racists nations in the world???? Good lord, I'm flabbergasted just typing it.

[cui bono]

83. Adding to your post... men get paternity leave as well as women getting maternity leave in Denmark.

My cousin got 6 months paternity leave so he could stay home and take care of their baby after his wife had her maternity leave. Now that's feminism!

[BrotherIvan]

104. You bet

It was seriously the strangest statement I've read in a long time. And unfortunately, a lot of people swallowed it. Just gross.

[7962]

178. Thank you for pointing out what should be obvious.

This place has become a sad sad place for a lot of bitter people

[BrotherIvan]

179. It's good that the lies are being countered

People read this info and a lot of new people are curious about Bernie so they may stumble into this thread. Falsehoods and full out lies should not be left to stand. Never get an answer though.

[Chathamization]

180. Thank you. It's a shame that it only takes seconds to create and spread misinformation, but

countering it with facts takes much more time and effort, and usually gets a lot less attention. I hope more and more people realize that they can't believe every unsubstantiated claim that's made around here. I've seen a lot of people accepting at face value posts which are simply inaccurate.

[BrotherIvan]

182. Well at least the true facts are getting out there for people to see

Rather than throwing completely fabricated and untrue opinions.

[pa28]

152. I have a feeling it's going to be a loooong primary season.

That post made me . . .

[BrotherIvan]

154. It has spread to other threads with others picking up the torch

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017263264

[appalachiablue]

222. I was sorry when that OP appeared on the Home Page yesterday and read some of the remarks.

I made a few comments about how my brother and sister visited friends in Sweden and loved it, same with Denmark. I have Indian friends with family in Norway and Scandinavia who are doing fine. They mention how modern the subways are and the airports like Belgium's compared to the US.

I lived in England as a student, have stayed with friends in Germany and France and traveled to Europe a number of times. I know how advanced things are there- parental leave, welfare and health systems, their infrastructure, train and airports. Even cellphone and internet service in France are much less costly.

Multiple political parties exist in Europe which most Americans don't realize, and provide more choice and diversity unlike the US duopoly. Germany has about 4-5 parties for example. A friend from my youth who has been involved in Germany's Green Party for years in EU received the Right Livelihood Award for environmental activism in Turkey I was pleased to learn after many years.

This morning I made some time to attend this important thread and appreciate the knowledge you are imparting here to try to counter those who've already stained Northern Europe with their intended disinformation and/or ignorance. The fear, hysteria of socialism and commie Europe (and now 'white racism') has expanded in the last 30 years obviously, from Reaganism, neoliberal economics and globalization. The influence of US conservative policies, think tanks and banks as in IMF, World Bank, Goldman are also there.

In spite of this, the lifestyle, welfare of the people and economic and social systems there are superior to the deteriorating US as you describe in posts above. We are in a very dangerous, serious time here with escalating problems largely unaddressed except by Sanders and some others. It's grave. I'm trying to convince a relative to consider Scandinavia for their millennials because of conditions here.

[BrotherIvan]

224. Thank you for your post

I think many posters pointing out that anything resembling a country drowning "racism and sexism" is not what Sanders was talking about. The US, as aggressors and imperialists, with a crumbling social structure and a renowned history of cruelty and racism, has no right to cast aspersions against Scandinavia of all places. Sadly, it is nothing more than a tactic in this case.

And yes, when people ask how to get their son or daughter into my alma mater, I tell them to go to Europe. The higher education is so much better.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

22. true, he shouldn't have said identical on social issues

[smokey nj]

27. Yeah, Sanders' impeccable, life-long record on civil rights and social justice is merely a clever

ruse. If he manages to pull out an upset and win the nomination, he will rip off the Bernie mask to reveal he was Strom Thurmond all along.

Seriously, seabeyond, your repeated attempts to smear an honorable man as a racist and a sexist are the most disgusting and offensive display of Rovian-style Swift-boating I can imagine. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[seabeyond]

30. i am not allowed to point out how these countries fail in social justice aspects?

i do it consistently when these countries are held up as the way to go. we need to be educated. factual. and addressing where they do not do so welll. that is the smartest way to progress forward. i do this consistently with these countries.

or is it

i am not allowed to discuss my issue at hand?

i am suppose to be quiet. cause you do not want to hear it?

yet, like always, you change the argument to something i did not say or argue. an easy win for you, right?

[smokey nj]

31. That IS NOT what you're doing and you and I both know it.

[seabeyond]

32. ha. now there is an argument i have heard before. your words do not matter, nor your facts...

doesnt matter if you have been consistent on this issue forever, and have said it often. the reality is.....

you are really saying....

fill in the blank. and you are all so fuckin creative.

i never even considered sanders to be racist or sexist. why the fuck would i put my toe in his camp if i thought, even considered it a possibility he was sexist or racist? why would i encourage my boys to get enthusiast in his campaign if i considered, suggested, thought he sexist or racist?

nothing, my words or my consistency, or my beliefs could allow you to twist it into thinking sanders is sexist and racist.

if i even considered that, you can damn well bet i would be calling him out as a sexist and racist.

[BrotherIvan]

41. You have NO facts

You are just tossing bombs in threads. It's quite reprehensible actually.

[cui bono]

46. You said just yesterday that he is white and male so his economic justice would be just that,

white and male.

I asked you why you leave out minorities and women in your definition of economic justice and you never answered. That is most certainly NOT how Sanders views it.

[cui bono]

40. You are all over DU pretending to want to support Sanders yet slandering his good name

by trying to make him sexist and racist. It's very transparent and you have been called on it several times that I've seen, so I'm sure it's much more than that.

If you don't know enough about him to know he is fighting the good fight for EVERYBODY, then go do some research. You will see he is one of the few people who are actually fighting for us - ALL OF US - in DC at this time.

[BrotherIvan]

43. +++++++

I don't think it's fooling anyone at all. But it's a shame to see as the first remark in a positive thread.

[seabeyond]

51. omg. there is some balanced accusations. you know those threads? they were a call out to me.

i dared to step into three of them that were calling me out, personally and say they changed the argument and tried clarifying. to no success.

how dare i stand up for myself and try to use my own owrds, instead of those hostile to me calling me out.

i am so fuckin bad. the baddest of the bad.

now.... take note of the threads, the many threads, that are not about dissing clinton, her supporters, but talking about sanders, and see how i participate.

take note of the many many many messages on his candidacy i have made supporting the man.

also take note. clearly i said in the past and i will say again

i am a feminist, social justice issue a priority for me, trying to step into sander campaign.

and obviously my issue on social justice pisses the supporters off.

[cui bono]

57. No. I was having a very civil exchange with you and you defined economic justice as being only

Last edited Sun May 3, 2015, 03:15 PM - Edit history (1)

for white males.

You have yet to explain why your definition of it is racist and sexist. You don't get to play victim now just because you don't want to explain your post.

It's not your "issue on social justice pisses the supporters off", it's that you are claiming that Sanders' platform is all about white males. That just isn't true.

So until you can back up your statements you should refrain from making them. Until you do back them up they are simply what we know them to be, slanderous.

Bernie fights for economic and social justice. He doesn't define it in terms that leave out minorities and women, you did that.

Edit to add this for you:

[seabeyond]

59. go back into that thread and see that i do not say the exact thing. addressing middle/upper middle

issues

and in the future. please point out him fighting social justice issues. i would like to hear. i am keeping my eye open myself.

[cui bono]

60. Again. Why do you leave out minorities and women in your definition of economic justice?

You yourself defined it that way - I've never seen anyone else define it like that - and then attribute it to Sanders by saying his platform is solely about economic justice (as you define it). You specifically said Sanders is white and male so that's who he will fight for.

You are the one that needs to back up those claims.

And please, please, answer my question as to why you define economic justice in such a racist and sexist manner. I really want to know. And why you think social justice is separate from economic justice. And, btw... how do you define social justice? Does that also exclude minorities and women?

Here, you asked for this, here is Sanders standing up strongly and loudly for women:

[hifiguy]

87. Someone posted Bernie's ratings from the NAACP

and NARAL yesterday. He was well over 90% from both organizations. That is definitive proof as far as I am concerned.

[cui bono]

93. No doubt. But somehow someone here will see that through their own kaleidoscope

and get something oddly different out of it.

[hifiguy]

97. That is, shall we say, a Palinesque "talent." nt

[Enthusiast]

126. I fear it serves their intended purpose.

[BrotherIvan]

158. That was me in response to the "supporter's" concerns

No answer.

[smokey nj]

71. What we're witnessing here is the classic Rovian tactic of attacking your opponent on their

strongest point.

[hifiguy]

82. Indeed.

And it is absolutely disgusting.

[Beowulf]

123. I question your feminist credentials

Last edited Sun May 3, 2015, 06:47 PM - Edit history (1)

if you believe Scandinavian countries are more sexist than the U.S.

[smokey nj]

49. Your actions speak for themselves - passive aggressive nonsense.

[backscatter712]

204. seabeyond, do you really think that xenophobia and social injustice are the traits...

...Bernie's trying to take from Scandinavian countries,

as opposed to democratic socialist stuff like universal health care, free higher education, beefed up Social Security, higher standards of living?

Really?

Just go look at Bernie's voting record on civil rights, social justice and women's issues. He's damned good on those fronts.

[Grey]

35. I don't believe he said....

Carbon Copy. Just "more like".

[seabeyond]

56. so how dare i educate, pointing out where they fail. fucking my bad. done.

[stranger81]

91. You are constantly attempting to mislead,

Not to educate.

[cui bono]

92. You are not educating. You are attempting to misinform. n/t

[hifiguy]

100. You never pointed out any salient issue in any detail.

Just drive-by slander of Scandinavia, and, by implication, Bernie.

And your silence in response to Brother Ivan's statistical summary is telling indeed.

[tblue37]

184. seabeyond, saying Scandinavian countries are worse tthan we are in matters of sexism and racism

is just an assertion, a *claim*, presented in general (I.e., nonspecific) terms. That is *not* the same as "educating" others on the subject. To accomplish that goal, you would need to offer specific examples, backed up with factual information from credible sources, as BrotherIvan has done with the charts in his posts.

Another way to offer specifics to support your general but not yet *supported* claim would be to offer specific examples from your own direct experience or direct observation of sexism or racism in those countries, if you have direct experience. Since BrotherIvan does have direct personal experience, he can and does present specific real life examples from his experience and on-site observations to support his claim that Scandinavia treats women and minorities better than the US does.

Merely repeating and re-repeating your unsupported general claim without offering specific, credibly sourced examples to illustrate and support that claim is *not* educating us. If you have specific examples of what you are claiming, then you *should* want to share them in order to tear the veil from the eyes of those who are so mistaken about such an important issue.

[appalachiablue]

228. Thank you and others here for refuting the empty, damaging claims being made about

Scandinavia especially the alleged white supremacy, sexism and racism.

[NaturalHigh]

45. What utopian society would YOU like us to emulate?

I'm trying to figure out what you want with all of your anti-Sanders posts except to stir trouble here. Don't get me wrong; I'm voting for Clinton myself, but I think Sanders seems like a decent guy.

[Exilednight]

63. Our racial inequality is far worse on many levels.

We have 10% of the world population and 25% of the world's prison population. The overwhelming majority of which is minority.

We have serious sexist issues in America, too. Scandanavia has same sea marriage and has actually found stability in "traditional" marriages after legalizing gay marriage.

There may be several ways they are behind us, but in many ways they are ahead of us.

[valerief]

64. FFS!!!! You think Sanders is endorsing sexism and racism??? BIG IGNORE for you! nt

[seabeyond]

67. no. but it helps to win a fabricated argument creating your very own false accusations.

[cui bono]

95. Please provide some links to facts about your claims.

And how they compare with the US.

Thanks!

[abelenkpe]

114. Whaaat?

Pretty crazy twisting Sanders words to mean he thinks we should emulate bigotry.

[hifiguy]

136. Some people make a career of twisting obvious statements into

the opposite of what is actually being said. Even on DU.

[Enrique]

138. Bernie is NOT advocating more sexism and racism

I am strongly confident he is referring to the economic system.

[pangaia]

146. And so....?

Ah hem, so do we.
Does that mean we should emulate that with which we would prefer not to agree?

[cyberswede]

164. Being "more like" something isn't the same as being "just like" that thing.

I'm sure Sanders didn't mean the U.S. should assume Scandinavia's sexist & racist issues.

And I'm also sure he doesn't ignore social issues.

to cui bono http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026614702 and http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026614874

[BlancheSplanchnik]

187. I thought Scandinavia was one of the best places for women...

From what I've read.

[BrotherIvan]

212. You are correct

But I guess being informed about the topic some claim to be an expert on is just too time consuming. I'm very surprised at the comment.

[NorthCarolina]

194. From my vantage point, I see horrendous sexist and racist issues right here

in the good ol' USA. I don't think we should "ignore" that in any country, but I hardly think we are in any position to cast aspersions on another country for these issues until we ourselves can say they've been cast aside.

[yurbud]

211. so they have those problems because they have universal health care and free higher ed?

[Ken Burch]

213. He wasn't saying we should embrace THAT part of Scandinavian life

Just the social democracy.

And you know it.

[Jackpine Radical]

230. I certainly understand that Scandinavia has its problems, and you're absolutely right

about racism and sexism.

Here, for instance, is one description of Danish society:

http://cbslife.dk/does-denmark-have-a-race-problem

{Danes exhibit} a cultural acceptance of casual racism. Our culture has never been particularly sensitive to race and is at times downright hostile to the idea of political correctness. We still bemoan the death of our right to call chocolate-coated marshmallow treats “Niggerballs,” as if it were some kind of divine right bestowed upon us by the Goddess of Free Speech. There exists a pervading sense in our culture that if there is no ill intent behind a slur, it cannot be construed as disrespectful: that it is a conscious choice to be offended. It seems to be a memetic thought, contagious because it absolves the hegemony from guilt and responsibility. It is victim-blaming nonsense, and, moreover, a self-righteous and arrogant notion. This kind of willful insensitivity towards minorities allows racism to be tacitly present in our culture.

I really don't imagine Bernie was advocating that we emulate EVERYTHING they do.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

2. Bernie says what will be good for America

America can learn from other countries - what's wrong with that?

[leftofcool]

16. Learn what? How to be racist?

[madfloridian]

20. We don't need to learn that from any other country. Why equate this OP with racism anyway??

[leftofcool]

23. Because racism is an extreme problem in Scandinavia and no we do not need to look like them at all.

[madfloridian]

26. We have an extreme problem here now. I doubt other countries could teach us more.

[leftofcool]

38. We sure do but they are much worse.

[madfloridian]

44. It's called hijacking when you change the subject from the OP to racism.

Thanks.

[Jester Messiah]

153. Now we know what the arrow in the H logo is for.

"Uhhh..... HEY! LOOK OVER THERE!"

[BrotherIvan]

47. Links? Proof?

Because that just isn't true. The US is one of the most RACIST countries in the industrialized world. I am a person of color and I take great offense to the dismissal of what is going on here.

Here's a hint: No one got shot/mudered for walking down the street while black in Scandinavia, to my knowledge, ever.

[smokey nj]

68. Are you contending that Bernie Sanders wants to usher in a new era of Jim Crow?

[cui bono]

101. So yet another DUer trying to claim Sanders is racist?

Wow. Certain people sure are scared of the man of the people.

Never heard any of this slanderous talk before he threw his hat in the ring. Interesting....

[smokey nj]

117. That they've sunk to this level less than a week into

the campaign says a lot and none of it is good.

[liberal_at_heart]

208. Did Sanders say anything about learning racism from Scandinavia? He said we could learn

how to divest money from politics, give people access to health care and education, and living wages. You people really are desperate. Do some research on Bernie's actions regarding civil rights in this country before you go blabbing your mouth.

[Faygo Kid]

4. Exactly right. Although I'm conflicted.

Of half Swedish, and half Norwegian, descent going back as far as I can determine (about 1800). Bernie is right, again. The Kochs will disagree.

[jwirr]

7. Add to the last paragraph: Like the mixed government of FDR. They called him a socialist to.

[DirkGently]

108. FDR WAS a bit of a socialist.

Somehow, we have gotten to a place where people pretend unregulated capitalism is a core American value. Or maybe our religion or something. Like the Founding Fathers stood on Plymouth rock and shouted,

"Small government, low wages and no environmental regulations, for ALLLL!"

Didn't happen that way. No one anointed pure capitalism our National Way of Doing Business, and in fact, we have made our greatest strides NOT doing things that way. Busting trusts, banning monopolies. Breaking up businesses before they become "too big to fail."

Socialism isn't a dirty word, or un-American, and it's far past time we stopped letting people pretend otherwise.

[Enthusiast]

130. Damn straight! I like your post!

It's too bad you have to remind people of these facts.

[pampango]

226. Indeed. Scandinavia and much of Europe still governs using FDR ideas.

If FDR were to return today, I imagine he would feel much more at home in Scandinavia and most of Europe than in his own country. Here he would wonder what we have done to his policies in the 70 years since he died.

[colsohlibgal]

18. Bernie's Message Should Resonate

Anyone not wealthy would benefit from what Bernie is saying. It's not like you cannot get rich, it's just a lot harder to get obscenely rich. Plus - the free or almost free health care would not create the costs we see here, just due to the decidedly lower amount of stress on the middle class - due to not worrying incessantly about how to pay for college and medical costs.

Thom Hartmann spent a couple of weeks in I think Denmark a couple of years ago and found that very few conservatives had a problem with any of this, their main thing is making immigration harder so as to limit who gets in on this sweet setup.

We could have all this if more middle class people started to put 2 and 2 together. Pot and marriage equality seem like done deals, so once we get past that why on earth would they not see how good this system would be for them personally? I mean why are CEOs of huge health insurance companies making 5-10 million dollars a year? It's insane, we are it I think in allowing for profit health care.

Bernie is right there with FDR who is on film and sound bytes saying how he welcomed the hatred of the plutocrats.

[Enthusiast]

132. Great post, colsohlibgal!

[Gregorian]

19. Who's afraid of the big bad GOP?

It seems that up until now our politicians have been asking for permission. If the talking head says the big bad wolf might not approve, they kowtow.


Finally we have someone who is brave and smart enough to realize that this game is just a thin veil. Now we need to win.

[AZ Progressive]

21. An American President envisioned a Democratic Socialist America

FDR, of course

[SoapBox]

24. Good for Bernie...

And good grief folks...we could only hope that candidates (?) will take the best from us and other countries, to make us the best.

Every damn country has issues...I think Bernie is probably the only one in the race on both sides that would have the best, well rounded vision of where we should go and what we should have for all Americans.

GOTV

[BeyondGeography]

25. Somebody get this guy a coach

Bring up Scandanavia and, guess what, the whole appearance becomes an irrelevant conversation about...Scandanavia.

It's called stepping on your message.

[BrotherIvan]

80. I think no one could have anticipated the utter ignorance and agenda-driven misinformation

I know I'm shocked. I thought people with some interest in politics would be better informed. I would think that those who self-identify as Democrats would WANT a society that is more egalitarian *by every single measure*. That doesn't mean he shouldn't talk about it.

[Nay]

169. Agreed. The woeful ignorance is, hopefully, one of the things that Bernie hopes to correct

in his speeches, position papers, discussions. etc.

The spectacle of several people in this DU thread saying that the Scandinavian countries are horrible models just defies belief. They come out first in damn near everything we Dems should want. I can't explain it, except to say that it is one of the very attitudes/beliefs that has infested this country, to the point that even Dems on a Dem board can be propagandized to believe it.

No wonder this country is circling the drain.

[BrotherIvan]

171. It is one of the strangest things I have ever seen on DU

And I think a few people thought attacking what is considered the best place to live on earth was a winning strategy. Sheesh.

[BeyondGeography]

202. Americans are more receptive to socialism than they know

They don't like to think about becoming like other countries. Why bring up Scandanavia when you can talk about the socialist values that Americans already embrace and building on that? He made the same type of mistake the other day when he came close enough to lumping the Clinton foundation with Koch and Adelson to create another sideshow headline.

He's running for President. He's sorely mistaken if he thinks he can make the most of the opportunity without polishing up his approach to a media which is religiously devoted to avoiding substance.

[HereSince1628]

28. I think the US will get an education on democratic socialism and it's benefits

It's been since before the McCarthy era that socialism wasn't demeaned regularly by the right, the Birchers and the libertarians.

Multiple generations have no real idea what democratic socialism means.

[Rolando]

34. If they don't know what socialism means

they don't read history, including social history, which is not about socialism but about trends in society through periods. A good example is American Moderns by a brilliant woman named Stansell.

[HereSince1628]

37. I agree with you, and yes, I don't think most people read history

I think most Americans read very little in the way of non-fiction.

[CTyankee]

52. And a media that stubbornly presents these obsolete views like George S. just

demonstrated.

A big debate on democratic socialism is way past due. Bernie is making it an issue and the time is ripe for the discussion. So many Americans have never been out of their state, region or the country. They have no idea that people can live good lives under democratic socialism, better lives than we Americans have.

[HereSince1628]

55. 14 years of jingoism has been pretty tough on our critical self-awareness.

We're No 1! is the cry, but our exceptionalism is mostly inverted among developed nations.

We're at the top of things like aggressive war, incarcerations, infant mortality, income asymmetry, etc.

[arcane1]

116. "History" to most Americans is over-simplified civic mythology, told to them as children in school

The whole point of history textbooks at that age is to teach patriotism. That's why we have adults walking around all over the place who believe it was the natives who were the thankful ones on that first Thanksgiving.

One thing Americans need to do, as a whole, is try to go 24 hours without kissing our own ass

[MisterP]

29. yeah, Americans already 1. think it looks like Sweden and 2. want it to look even more like it

[pampango]

99. "When asked to choose an ideal wealth distribution, Americans say that they like Sweden/"

Americans are more likely than Europeans to believe that they live in a middle-class society, even though income is really much less equally distributed here than in Europe.

Americans vastly underestimate inequality in their own society – and when asked to choose an ideal wealth distribution, say that they like Sweden.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/inequality-delusions/

[Overseas]

48. K&R. Yes please!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

72. The Nordic countries The next supermodel/The Economist

The Economist can hardly be dismissed as a Left Wing Socialist rag.

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21571136-politicians-both-right-and-left-could-learn-nordic-countries-next-supermodel

SMALLISH countries are often in the vanguard when it comes to reforming government. In the 1980s Britain was out in the lead, thanks to Thatcherism and privatisation. Tiny Singapore has long been a role model for many reformers. Now the Nordic countries are likely to assume a similar role.

That is partly because the four main Nordics—Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland—are doing rather well. If you had to be reborn anywhere in the world as a person with average talents and income, you would want to be a Viking. The Nordics cluster at the top of league tables of everything from economic competitiveness to social health to happiness. They have avoided both southern Europe’s economic sclerosis and America’s extreme inequality. Development theorists have taken to calling successful modernisation “getting to Denmark”. Meanwhile a region that was once synonymous with do-it-yourself furniture and Abba has even become a cultural haven, home to “The Killing”, Noma and “Angry Birds”.

On public services the Nordics have been similarly pragmatic. So long as public services work, they do not mind who provides them. Denmark and Norway allow private firms to run public hospitals. Sweden has a universal system of school vouchers, with private for-profit schools competing with public schools. Denmark also has vouchers—but ones that you can top up. When it comes to choice, Milton Friedman would be more at home in Stockholm than in Washington, DC.

All Western politicians claim to promote transparency and technology. The Nordics can do so with more justification than most. The performance of all schools and hospitals is measured. Governments are forced to operate in the harsh light of day: Sweden gives everyone access to official records. Politicians are vilified if they get off their bicycles and into official limousines. The home of Skype and Spotify is also a leader in e-government: you can pay your taxes with an SMS message.

[DirkGently]

76. "Democratic Socialism" needs to be discussed more often and more openly.

Our conversation in the U.S. is so dumbed down, we don't often get past people just shouting "socialism" as an epithet, with no articulation or discussion. We are simply supposed to think about Soviet tanks in the streets or little pink horned devils or something and dismiss it.

We're like kindergarteners here.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world's civilized Western democracies discuss and pursue democratic socialism along with other approaches, and talk about whether and how to solve social and political problems through a variety of normal, grownup means.

Generally, socialism and democracy appear to work well together, and do not involve standing in line for toilet paper or breaking rocks in a gulag. But we are so busy explaining to people that you need to pay "taxes," because you need "government," because that's how "large groups of people live together cooperatively" that we don't get to the finer points.

We're the rubes of the world, and for some reason, we're proud of it. We're like connoisseurs of ignorance. We consider it optional to even "believe" in things like the scientifically established age of the world or whether pollution is a good idea or a bad one.

This is why we need Bernie out there talking, eventual Democratic nominee or not. He can elevate the conversation, and he does not have the weight of the monied American establishment leaning over his shoulder shushing him, lest the dumb Americans figure out what's really going on.

[madfloridian]

85. .....

[hifiguy]

89. EXCELLENT post!

[arcane1]

118. I'm trying to adopt the habit of asking "what do you mean?" whenever someone shouts "socialist"

Last edited Sun May 3, 2015, 05:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Even if I have to play dumb, I want to get them to think it through, spell it out, and show their work.

"You say he's a socialist, but I'm not sure what you mean by that. Can you elaborate?"

"Ummm...."

[DirkGently]

135. YES! "Okay, socialist, like 'Social Security,' buut ...

what's actually WRONG with whatever we're talking about here?"

Will it or work or not? Is it fair or not? It's not wrong because you can yell "socialism" at it.

[Enthusiast]

139. There are many that profit greatly by keeping us like kindergarteners.

[DirkGently]

168. They're laughing all the way to the bank, or

... rather, all the way FROM the bank, in many cases.

Arg.

[TM99]

193. Well said.

I was a 17 year old when I became an exchange student to the then West Germany.

I was amazed at the social reality of that European country that was so radically different than my own. I received health care when I needed it even as an exchange student. I did not see any adults worried about medical bills like I had started seeing with my own father when his heart problems developed in my early teen years.

I saw a country where education was free. I saw a country where vacation time and reasonable work hours were the norm and not the exception.

When I returned to the US and went to college, I was in culture shock.

We definitely are children when it comes to the European model of Democratic Socialism. Maybe, just maybe, that can change with Sanders being elected our next president.

[DirkGently]

195. Thanks -- That's long been my impression.

Very interesting to hear from someone who's seen European Socialism up close. They seem to have an entirely more mature grasp on what works and what makes sense.

I saw a piece of an interview once where a wealthy German business magnate calmly explained that he was happy to pay lots of taxes to improve infrastructure and generally make the country better. He was PROUD to be contributing to the overall good.

We don't seem to have that attitude here, and it's a huge problem in my opinion.

[TM99]

206. There is a definite maturity that comes

when your history is valued and it is in some instances thousands of years old.

While living in Bavaria, I visited a town named Amberg. That year it was celebrating it's 1000th year as a city. I had never experienced anything like that, and I lived in an historical society certified home!

I also saw how much the German people knew their own history good and bad.

America is like a teenager. We are just old enough to get ourselves into trouble but not yet old enough to be mature or wise.

Most teens are narcissistic, and that is quite normal and healthy for that age. But as a country? No, it isn't.

I definitely agree that it is a very big problem. Sadly, I doubt it will be overcome in my lifetime.

[Oilwellian]

200. Remember this pic?

It's the epitome of this country's ignorance where our socialist programs are concerned.

[DirkGently]

203. I think I had actually suppressed the memory.

But ... yeah.

Good index of about where we are. Still.

Arg.

[pansypoo53219]

77. the GOP made amerika equate socialism=COMMUNISM!

zombie joe mccarthy.

[hifiguy]

90. And Zombie Raygun.

[madfloridian]

78. "The fact of the matter is, we do a lot in our country, which is good," he added. "But we can..

"The fact of the matter is, we do a lot in our country, which is good," he added. "But we can learn from other countries."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/03/bernie-sanders-campaign_n_7199546.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

[daredtowork]

151. Yes - the joke is that American Exceptionalism means Exeptionally Bad. nt

[LittleBlue]

86. I don't care if he loses. Refreshing to see a politician speak his beliefs without shame

Just glad he's saying the truths we need to hear.

[arcane1]

122. The Truth wins either way :)

[fredamae]

88. Where are we

compared to Scandinavia on GMO's? Mass Transportation? Gun Deaths? Police Violence? Health Care? Wages? Workers Rights? Women's Rights? Education? Environmental Protections and recognition of Global Warming? etc
I suspect, we are not as advanced...though, admittedly I am not well informed about any of this.

[True Blue Door]

102. A good rational argument, but some strategic weaknesses in the framing.

For instance, don't get trapped by terminology. Words mean only what they are associated with, and "democratic socialism" sounds like what it is - a compromise among competing necessities.

In other words, the contrast of the two words only draws attention to why it's necessary to stipulate "democratic" - because of the monstrous experiments in the authoritarian form that had soaked two continents in blood for half a century.

By accidentally raising that association, you associate yourself with it even while stipulating the exact opposite. This is why it's bad to be a bearer of bad news: Even if your agenda is to correct the problem causing the bad news, you're still associated with a bad event to the recipient. Communication is all about such associations.

For now it's fine, but eventually he'll have to get some strategists to hone his approach.

[madfloridian]

105. "but eventually he'll have to get some strategists to hone his approach."

That honing of messages is why the Democrats lost the House and the Senate.

Trapped by terminology??

I'd rather a politician would take chances rather than follow the think tank policies of "watch your speech...keep it bipartisan...don't offend the other party."

[True Blue Door]

113. We lost the House and Senate because of Citizens United and vote suppression.

I'd rather a politician would take chances rather than follow the think tank policies of "watch your speech...keep it bipartisan...don't offend the other party."

It has nothing to do with the other party. Offending Republicans is good, but you have to make sure they're the only ones you offend - not just random swaths of the general public who aren't impressed with the symbolism of the left even while they support our ideas on an issue-by-issue basis.

Communication isn't telling people what you want to say (which too many on the left do), and it also isn't telling people what you think they want to hear (which too many in the center do), it's telling people what you want them to hear - which requires understanding where they are and how they hear one thing vs. another.

No think tank is required to appreciate that, but let's also not be anti-intellectual here and pretend that it requires no forethought to communicate ideas effectively.

[madfloridian]

115. "but let's also not be anti-intellectual here" Wow

Communication isn't telling people what you want to say (which too many on the left do), and it also isn't telling people what you think they want to hear (which too many in the center do), it's telling people what you want them to hear - which requires understanding where they are and what they see.

No think tank is required to appreciate that, but let's also not be anti-intellectual here and pretend that it requires no forethought to communicate ideas effectively.

That is so funny. This candidate is simply speaking the truth as he and millions of others perceive it to be.

I see a reverting back to the DLC/Third Way line of thinking in your post.

I do not think that is wise after the last 2 elections.

[True Blue Door]

124. It's fine for now, flying a flag and gathering troops.

But eventually the primary will require him to convince people in the party who are not impressed by the face-value of his candidacy.

If the attitude is just going to be calling those people names and pretending like anything we find inconvenient should be ignored or belittled as a FUD conspiracy, then you've already written the future of the campaign, because that story has been written many times before.

Hillary Clinton is good at working party machinery, and Barack Obama with all his charm and his massive groundwell just barely overcame her. Bernie Sanders can wish to differ from Obama on some issues, but if he despises how Obama campaigned, that will be a problem for him - and for all of us, because he's our best hope at the moment.

But again, this is still early days. Plenty of time to build a campaign.

Republicans write him off. I refuse to do so. And I hope you'll think more of Sanders than to believe he has to campaign like Adlai Stevenson to avoid being "corrupted."

[madfloridian]

128. "flying a flag and gathering troops"

What a condescending statement. When someone says things like that to me, talking as though I just fell off the turnip truck.....it makes me feel angry enough to fight back against such arrogance even harder than I have been doing.

That talking down to those of us who recognize what our party has done to us in the name of "bipartisanship"....is not wise nor does it work.

[True Blue Door]

147. It's not a matter of "bipartisanship."

There is nothing less relevant to this discussion than the Republican Party and what it thinks or will do. Absolutely nothing.

But there are two sets of people who are relevant, that many of us (meaning you, in this case) "talk down to", and that's not going to be a sustainable strategy.

The first group is the half of Democratic voters closer to the middle than to the left - the ones so painfully afraid of their own values they nominated someone in 2004 who voted for the Iraq War even when the smell of fascism was still fresh in the air, and mostly opted for an unapologetic Iraq War supporter in 2008 even with Obama as an alternative.

What is your plan to win over enough of those people to a candidacy as different from the status quo as Bernie Sanders' to secure the nomination?

I assume you are already convinced enough about Bernie Sanders to support him, so why are you still more concerned about having him preach to you than to people different from you?

I'm satisfied that he shares my values well enough, so now I will wait to see how well he can grow beyond that beginning: If he can convince people whose values are not identical to his own that he is a reliable vehicle for their voices and their interests, not just some guy they happen to agree with.

And that speaks to the second group, who is even more nebulous and irrational: The nonpartisan general electorate. What is your plan for them? Hectoring them on the vagaries of anarcho-syndicalism because just saying "Government works when good people work it" would feel insulting to people he already brought on board a long time ago?

[madfloridian]

174. 4 articles to read. Trying to sound like the other party IS a huge huge part of it all.

This has some important points in it.

The centrist think tanks appear to have succeeded in neutralizing the Democratic party.

Al From interview

"One of the important things we had to do in 1992 was remove the obstacles that kept people from voting Democratic in the first place," he said.

That included addressing issues of welfare, fiscal discipline and crime. "As long as people thought we were going to take money from people who worked and give it to people who didn't work, they didn't want to listen to anything else," he added. "The Republicans have to make people understand that they're not just a right-wing, southern party."

More:

Greider: The trouble started when the party abandoned its working-class base.

In the real world of voters, human experience trumps macroeconomics and the slowly declining official unemployment rate. An official at the AFL-CIO culled the following insights from what voters said about themselves on Election Day: 54 percent suffered a decline in household income during the past year. Sixty-three percent feel the economy is fundamentally unfair. Fifty-five percent agree strongly (and another 25 percent agree somewhat) that both political parties are too focused on helping Wall Street and not enough on helping ordinary people.

Instead of addressing this reality and proposing remedies, the Democrats ran on a cowardly, uninspiring platform: the Republicans are worse than we are. Undoubtedly, that’s true—but so what? The president and his party have no credible solutions to offer. To get serious about inequality and the deteriorating middle class, Democrats would have to undo a lot of the damage their own party has done to the economy over the past thirty years.

Long ago, the party abandoned its working-class base (of all colors) and steadily distanced itself from the unglamorous conditions that matter most in people’s lives. Traditional party bulwarks like organized labor and racial minorities became second-string players in the hierarchy that influences party policy. But the Dems didn’t just lose touch with the people they claimed to speak for; they betrayed core constituencies and adopted pro-business, pro-finance policies that actively injure working people.

The shift away from the people was embraced most dramatically when Bill Clinton’s New Democrats came to power in the 1990s. Clinton double-crossed labor with NAFTA and subsequent trade agreements, which encouraged the great migration of manufacturing jobs to low-wage economies. Clinton’s bank deregulation shifted the economic rewards to finance and set the stage for the calamity that struck in 2008. Wall Street won; working people lost. Clinton presided over the financialization of the Democratic Party. Obama merely inherited his playbook and has governed accordingly, often with the same policy-makers.

“The people,” of course, are still present in the party, but they’re treated mainly as data for election strategies. The voters themselves resemble the supernumeraries in a grand opera: they appear on stage at election time, always lavishly praised by the pols. But they are given no lines to speak or songs to sing.

More:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/a-presidents-choice-resis_b_778565.html

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/7925

[True Blue Door]

197. I don't expect Sanders to listen to any of those discredited views.

But I also don't see any actual plans to improve the situation in all that funereal moaning you link to about how far the Party has fallen.

Certainly not specific ideas for the specific candidate, Bernie Sanders, to win people in the party back from that way of seeing things. If they would just be instantly converted the moment someone talked to them honestly about this stuff, they wouldn't have been persuaded otherwise in the first place.

So clearly there is other stuff going on that has in the past put them in the Clintonian column even when there were viable or even electorally superior alternatives.

Undoing this is not a simple matter or it would already have happened. Obama's talents just barely overcame the phenomenon to win nomination in 2008, and yet it still lingers and seeks to retake the Party. So I eventually need to hear from Sanders some explanation, or preferably demonstration, of how he intends to meet or exceed Obama's performance in this respect. Without that, I would have little confidence and my vote for him would just be a despair default.

Being right is such a small part of being a successful candidate even under ideal conditions. None of us should have the attitude that being right means we are owed victory - we will get the victory we build, or else inherit one form of defeat or another.

[Enthusiast]

106. The American right wing has intentionally creating confusion around the term socialism for years.

Ever heard a Republican say, "Socialism has failed everywhere it has been tried." The only socialism they will acknowledge is the cold war Iron Curtain Soviet Union, Cuba or Red China kind.

Of course they're dumber than hell about other shit too.

[madfloridian]

107. Here's the video, thanks to cal04 in the Video forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017263264

[Cali_Democrat]

131. Yes!

Well said, Bernie!

It's about damn time the American bubble gets popped.

Who gives a fuck about what the GOP says. They've been wrong about pretty much everything.

[Beartracks]

134. Some people don't seem to realize he said "more like" Scandinavia.

He didn't say "should be like Scandinavia" or "become Scandinavia."

He said MORE LIKE -- as in, in those areas where it would benefit Americans to be more like Scandinavia, such as in health care, education, and income equality. That in no way means we would be on a slippery slope of actually turning into Scandinavia. To think so is... well... kinda GOP-ish. One country can adopt another country's policy ideas without turning into that country.

======================

[pampango]

155. Well said, Beartracks.

Scandinavians are generally not afraid of immigration or trade precisely because of their "health care, education, and income equality". Fear of 'others' and their stuff comes when you are worried about your health care, education and income equality.

[winter is coming]

162. Seems to be the same folks who think "democratic socialist" = "socialist". n/t

[cyberswede]

163. Good point. nt

[Fritz Walter]

150. Jeg elsker dig, Bernie!

Look it up in Google Translate, if you must.

[madfloridian]

176. I did.

[AlinPA]

156. Did the POS Stephanaopolous answer Bernie's question? i.e., "what's wrong with that?" I'm assuming

the shithead media asshole didn't answer Bernie.

[morningfog]

159. It sounds like Sanders "welcomes their hate."

[L0oniX]

167. It does indeed ...and I love that.

[True Blue Door]

181. Good call. That will be an advantage.

As long as he remains cognizant of the difference between what he says and how the media will report it.

For the moment they'll do him favors though, hoping to create a more interesting primary.

[Buns_of_Fire]

166. No problem here, so long as McDonald's doesn't start serving McLutefisk.

I know, I know. "It'd be an improvement," I hear you say...

[smokey nj]

170. Thanks for the laugh!

[libdem4life]

172. Maybe it's because they don't have a standing army and the Manifest Destiny for Empire.

[7962]

175. I cannot believe the ignorant knee-jerking in half the posts here.

Apparently there is a racist behind EVERY tree in EVERY country in the world. What a bunch of nonsense.

[rbnyc]

189. No doubt.

An important issue, but in this context a total red herring.

[Beartracks]

236. Those are some fat trees, cuz there's terrorists behind each one, too! n/t

[sabrina 1]

188. Nothing wrong with that. n/t

[Thespian2]

190. Every country has problems...

that is not the question...the proper question is how the country deals with them...America should never try to copy the policies of another country...Why not learn from what the Scandinavian countries do to improve the lives of their citizens? Or, should someone tell Bernie that Americans can't change from the disastrous course now being followed?

[certainot]

192. nothing, except they have 1000 radio stations to howl about

how he's unamerican, etc

pretty soon it's like benghazi

[whereisjustice]

198. when you charge people with crimes you pin a scarlet letter on them for the rest of their

lives. Here's how this works...

A cop pulls you over for broken tail light.

When you protest, he punches you in the head, shocks you with taser and adds resisting arrest, etc etc

Then you have 1000s of dollars in fees, fines and most likely a prison term.

Then you rack up more charges because u can't pay the fines.

When you finally get released, you still have the fines and a mark on your permanent record.

As a young adult you literally have no hope, no future.

Should you start a family with our justice system handing you a lifetime of poverty?

What do you do?

Now, if you decide to start a family it will be complete hell with no job and no chance to help your own kids get ahead.

How will you earn money for rent, food, etc? The options are bleak. So, you join the underground economy.

What's the lesson to be learned here?

And if there is a child in this family, he/she grows up seeing how perverted and cruel the justice system is when applied to poor people.

Even worse, they watch how our public officials get down on their knees and kiss the asses of the rich.

But it gets even worse.

Now as bad as employment situation is for the poor, Obama is pushing to send even more jobs to Asia.

And Hillary? You have got to be fucking joking. Her $300,000 a speech bullshit is the problem not the solution.

This country is seriously, irreparably sick.

I suspect there will be more protest actions in years ahead and they won't get anymore polite than they are today.

The rich cannot keep taking and taking and taking from the middle class and below.

And at some point we will run out of cages to house poor people.

History has proven, without exception, that there is only one eventuality.

Police are militarizing for war. NSA and CIA are spying on us for "our safety".

Things are going to get worse for most of us. Much worse.

[backscatter712]

205. Bernie's doing the right thing: owning his democratic socialism like a boss!

Wear it proud, Bernie!

We all know that the first two words coming out of the mouths of any of Bernie's detractors will be "democratic socialism".

And the proper response: "What's wrong with that?"

If Bernie Sanders tried downplaying his democratic socialism, or denying it, the tape-loops would start running on the cable news channels, and he'd be eaten alive.

So Bernie's doing the right thing, for his campaign, and for all of us: wearing it proud.

So when George Stephanopoulos talked about Scandinavia being in the attack ads, Bernie simply explained why he likes so many of the policies from Scandinavia, like universal health care, free higher education, better standards of living, a healthier, more participatory democracy.

That's how we'll win.

[RiverNoord]

227. He will be largely immune to 'socialism' scare attacks.

This is a different kind of candidate than the corporate election machine has seen in a very, very long time...

[struggle4progress]

207. What Americans think of Europeans

... Scandinavia – I’m throwing the Netherlands in here, too, because for whatever reason, most Americans think “Dutch” applies to Denmark, and that they speak Danish in Holland. (I tell people although they’re all tall blondes that speak Germanic languages, Dutch bikes are routinely stolen while Danish ones aren’t.) Scandinavia is considered advanced technologically and blonde, blonde, blonde, but beyond that, there’s no reason to ever visit any of those countries. And most Americans might think Scandinavia is a country, and they speak a language called Slavic ... http://dailycandor.com/what-americans-think-of-europeans/

... contrary to what many Americans seem to think, Amsterdam is not in Denmark ...

[NuttyFluffers]

214. yay!

[ejbr]

223. Cuz I'd look like this