General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAvengers Director: Rumor I Quit Twitter over Feminist Harrassment ‘Horsesh*t’
Avengers director Joss Whedon unceremoniously deleted his Twitter account Monday, leading some to believe he had been chased off by Twitterati angry over his studios handling of Scarlet Johanssons Black Widow character.
On Wednesday Whedon told BuzzFeed that was horseshit.
Per BF:
Believe me, I have been attacked by militant feminists since I got on Twitter. Thats something Im used to. Every breed of feminism is attacking every other breed, and every subsection of liberalism is always busy attacking another subsection of liberalism, because god forbid they should all band together and actually fight for the cause.
I saw a lot of people say, Well, the social justice warriors destroyed one of their own! Its like, Nope. That didnt happen, he continued. I saw someone tweet its because Feminist Frequency pissed on Avengers 2, which for all I know they may have. But literally the second person to write me to ask if I was OK when I dropped out was [Feminist Frequency founder] Anita [Sarkeesian].
http://www.mediaite.com/online/avengers-director-rumor-i-quit-twitter-over-feminist-harrassment-horsesht/
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)your confused me even more, rather than clear up.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)took a while to load the second, to the sjw being tedious bullshit. so i replied without seeing that. fuck. kinda what i am living.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)cyberswede
(26,117 posts)...'cause I mostly see people pointing out how the OP was full of shit.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)Ug. I was hoping this would be a good movie, since my 11 year old son wants me to
Sexist shit is everywhere.
Nothing sexist about it?
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)"Ironic that so many dedicated feminists fell for MRA talking points."
The irony is lost on you.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)One of those is a troll.
One poster (who you cited twice) changed their mind after a dialog ("I agree. That is encouraging."
And the poster who said "sexist shit is everywhere" continued with "But you'll be hard pressed to find it in here..."
...that's hardly "so many dedicated feminists." - nor are DU's most "infamous" feminists even in that thread.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)throw a tantrum? that they are not allowed to call women sluts? how unfair?
have i missed something.
poor little boys.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I thought it was Jeremy Renner and Chris Evans? Did Joss Whedon do that as well? If so do you have a link? That would be pretty uncharacteristic of him.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the mean ole feminist are picking on him. so i read the article. thinking surely i would see why those mean feminists are picking on him. all i got from the article was.
well. too bad. boys. you are not allowed to define women as sluts. your bad. if that is it, then i am gonna say there was not hordes of meanie feminists. but some asshole men.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Did he call anybody a slut?
Was he present when Evans and Renner called Black Widow a slut?
Or is this guilt by association? He directed a movie with some actors who said some unfortunate things in interviews?
Bryant
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)do you think feminist might have been addressing SOMETHING? i am thinking. i mean, those meanie feminists are picking on him for absolutely no reason?
wouldnt you like to know what the ISSUE is? at the very least?
dont you think the article should have let us know WHAT the issue is?
all i found was some men calling a woman a slut.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)1. He isn't complaining about Feminism. He is instead saying that he didn't quit Twitter because of Feminists - indeed he points to Feminist Frequency's Anita Sarkeesian as having reached out to him. I don't know if you are familiar with Ms. Sarkeesian but she was part of the whole Gamergate mess. While there is an element of "see - some feminists like me" in his reference to her, there's also the fact that Sarkeesian has been lambasted by the geek community for pointing out (accurately) that many games have sexist elements to them (and worse). And he's backed her up in the past.
2. He is 100% correct when he says "Every breed of feminism is attacking every other breed, and every subsection of liberalism is always busy attacking another subsection of liberalism, because god forbid they should all band together and actually fight for the cause."
3. You are the one who made the accusation that he was one of the boys who called the Black Widow a slut - I simply asked you to back up that accusation. If you can't - well you can move on to something else that he has actually done and suggest that this is why Joss Whedon - who has been one of the most openly feminist men working in Hollywood - deserves to be attacked for being insufficiently feminist. Frankly - if Whedon isn't feminist enough than there's little hope for anybody in Hollywood.
Bryant
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)2. calling and calidating nad dismissing calling women slut and whore sure in hell not banding together. to tit for tat?
3. no. i did not make that accusation. you may have read it, but i clearly did not think he was the one to say that, and you need to re read my words. i was wanting to know what he did, to get the feminists riled, not seeing it in the story.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)So Joss Whedon didn't call woman sluts - but he should be held accountable for other men who did? Is that the argument?
Bryant
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)he might say something about that fuckin offensive interview, you think> but at the very least, understand why women may be pissed at the interview.
this also leads me to exactly what the widow character will be. and that, ya, has to do with wheldon. but... having no information on the character, that really is not relevant.
unless we already know the character and it is relevant.
but seeing how i am just walking into this story, i do not have that information YET
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)the whole "ZOMG Wheldon quits because evil feminists" story suspect:
http://www.salon.com/2014/08/27/joss_whedon_blasts_misogynistic_video_games_tweets_support_for_feminist_frequency_founder/
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Why not get the information and then go after Whedon? Your attack, if you still felt it warranted, would be sharper and more direct. It's not like people haven't written about these issues.
Here for example is an interview that he gave on Black Widow's Character. Doesn't reference that controversy directly, but does talk about how Whedon sees the Character.
Bryant
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)clear. i do not know if this is a dude we hold up to a point, wehre we are not even allowed to address. but if so, bullshit. i can appreciate his position supporting feminist. an ya. i have problems with what he said. that you refuse to acknowledge. and i think cause you know it.
i do not need to treat him with kid glaves. afraid to lose his support. i am sure he is a big boy and can handle it.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)in your accusations. If you feel like he warrants being attacked because he didn't publically chastise Chris Evans and Jeremy Renner than you should have made that clear at the outset. Instead you put him in the same box as those two and assumed he was in agreement.
Being accurate and backing up your accusations is not being weak. It's not being gentle. It's not being soft. And it's certainly not using kid gloves.
Bryant
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)all i am seeing is the men called the female character a slut. people didnt like that. now they
throw a tantrum? that they are not allowed to call women sluts? how unfair?
have i missed something.
poor little boys.
But you are right no point continuing this.
Bryant
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)some men called a character a slut. then other men blamed feminists.
Jeremy Renner and Chris Evans called a character a slut
Chris Evans and Jeremy Renner apologized - Jeremy Renner reneged on his apology.
Some Mens Rights Activists and others (Patton Oswalt for example) claimed that Joss Whedon had been hounded into leaving Twitter.
Joss Whedon then commented that this wasn't true; he hadn't been hounded from twitter by feminists.
Is there anything I've said above that you dispute?
Bryant
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)how i read wheldons comment.
1. SOUNDS like he is pitting feminist against feminist. is he? and surely the militant was just a slip parrating the MRA. see, i can be gracious and understanding, as feminists are labeled militant.
hence my point. where am i wrong? you can tell me. i am receptive. and even if i am not wrong, and it was an ooops.... he is a feminist ally. i can wrap my head around that.
can you?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)feminists of, and that is not supporting feminism.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Let's be factual at least.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)You really shouldn't have an issue with that.
Snow Leopard
(348 posts)but they do get to call someone a slut in this free country
wonder why everyones fee fees got all upset over someone calling a fictional character a slut
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)were hurt?
Snow Leopard
(348 posts)was the feminists who's fee fees were hurt, but I fail to see how a comment about a fictional character translates to hatred of women. It is illustrative that you chose that term though.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)KitSileya
(4,035 posts)On David Letterman, where he claimed that because Black Widow is a fictional character, it doesn't matter that he called her a sl*t. Never mind that his salary should tell him how important we find our fiction, and never mind that he hasn't said word one about the character that actually has had sex with a lot of people (while Natasha has had sex with none, and only been seen looking for a serious relationship with one.)
I find it contemptible of him, to be honest, and am mightily disappointed.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)KitSileya
(4,035 posts)Regressive in some characters, unbelievable in others. Black Widow and Dr. Banner are especially ill-treated IMO. Hawkeye's reveal is just so stereotypical and ill-suited. To me it felt like they cut half the movie - the first half, considering that none of the characters are where we left them last, physically or emotionally. And after the wonderful portrayal of BW and Steve Rogers in CA:TWS it was especially galling. I hope the Russo brothers are slated to direct BW's next outing, and not Joss Whedon.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)I hope so to.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Which is sad, as if everyone didn't already know.
KitSileya
(4,035 posts)It doesn't matter. He gets to be in the closet if he wants to be, and more power to him. But he doesn't get to call the only woman in the MCU Avengers a sl*t without pushback. BW is linked with 4of the 6 Avengers because 5 of them are straight guys, and they can't think of her except as a potential romance. That is pure sexism. It harms real life women because it reinforces sexism in our culture. Not to mention it is very disrespectful to Johanssen, who is the person people will be thinking of when they hear 'Black Widow is a sl*t'. It's not like actors don't get closely identified by their roles, after all. This bullshit of his about how she's fictional doesn't excuse anything, nor is this faux anyone who has sex with 4 of the 6 Avengers, considering 5 of them are cis straight men and only women could sleep with 4 of them.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)The entire point to the behavior is how obnoxious and misogynist it is--it's using hypermasculinity as a shield, based on the old stereotype that homosexuality and masculinity are inconsistent.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)And probably not PC.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)wouldn't be the first time . . .
Chris Evans realized how offensive the comments were, Renner chose to double down
note that he didn't call Tony Stark a "whore" and a "slut" despite that character's extreme promiscuity.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Joss Whedon has always been a passionate feminist. I'll bet he doesn't cast Renner in any more of his films...
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Pathetic what they will grasp onto.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)octoberlib
(14,971 posts)a slut and a whore.
Chris Evans, Jeremy Renner apologize for their derogatory Black Widow jokes
Yeah, it was a joke. Off-colored. Whatever. Im unapologetic about a lot of things, but I got into a lot of internet trouble. Because thats a thing now, you can get in, Renner told OBrien. The actor then explained how a question about Black Widows romantic partners (shes been linked to four characters in the Marvel Cinematic Universe so far) led to his remark.
Mind you, I was talking about a fictional character and fictional behavior. But, Conan, if you slept with four of the six Avengers, no matter how much fun you had, youd be a slut, Renner said. Id be a slut.
The comments Renner made to OBrien echo the actors apology following the initial uproar.
I am sorry that this tasteless joke about a fictional character offended anyone, Renner said in a statement. It was not meant to be serious in any way. Just poking fun during an exhausting and tedious press tour. Watch OBrien and Renner discuss the incident below.
http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/05/jeremy-renner-black-widow-internet-trouble
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)know your place.
kinda like that?
thanks for the link. and.
no
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)is a fictional character. Which is bullshit.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Avengers movie again. They are dumb movies anyway. No use for them. Waste of time and promotes sexism so shut them down. I so hope it happens.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)KitSileya
(4,035 posts)I want them to start making superhero ensemble movies that actually pass the Bechdel test. Movies where 5/6th of the heroes aren't white cis men. Where they don't equate sterility with being a monster. I want Marvel to stop thinking that if a movie with a female lead doesn't do well, movies with female leads don't do well, while if a movie with a male lead tanks, that movie with a male lead tanked.
I like superhero movies. What's more, I like MCU movies. These are the people who made a 10-episode miniseries where the whole plot hinged on the hero exploiting the men's awful misogyny to get things done. Why can't they get that into their movies? Why do we get fobbed of with Whedon's revolutionary-in-the-90s female characters? It's 2015. Shouldn't we have gotten farther than this?
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)A bunch of MRAs confabulated that a man got chased off of twitter by ebil feminists, which of course are just "SJWs" (a right wing meme, by the way, for those of you pretending to be liberals and using that...FYI.)
MRAs desperately wanted it to be true that a generally feminist man was driven to the brink by women and our shrill demands on social media.
From the article: "Whedon said he bolted from Twitter to find some quiet space to write, comparing working out new ideas amidst the scrum of social media to taking the bar exam at Coachella.
He's fine. The MRAs need to fold tents and admit that their conspiracy theory was a bunch of bullshit.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)thanks.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)chervilant
(8,267 posts)"Every breed of feminism is attacking every other breed, and every subsection of liberalism is always busy attacking another subsection of liberalism..."
Hyperbole, Mr. Whedon? Or, are you casting aspersions out of anger?
I don't know this guy, but what little I've read about this trite brouhaha leaves me with the impression that Mr. Whedon is rather sophomoric.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)ect,... pornifying is their femist right. and since they are feminists too, they are alllowed. just empowering those sluts and all. you know.
so ya. exactly what is this man getting all pissy about with all us feminists.
do tell.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)that he sounds sexist, but I don't know enough about the man to make that claim. And, whining about a Twitter account issue seems so ridiculous when, as a species, we're facing so many ginormous crises.
I think it's sad that so many individuals fail to see sexism, or think that if it's only slightly sexist, it should be okay. I still struggle with self worth having been sexually used by men throughout my childhood. Thus every instance of sexism rubs salt in that wound I've worked so hard to heal.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)But to be clear - he left Twitter voluntarily - and at that point many Mens Rights Activists types suggested that he had been hounded off by feminists, trying to turn his leaving Twitter as a cause celebre for how nasty feminists are. He then was asked about this and made it clear that Feminists did not drive him off Twitter.
Joss Whedon has a long history of supporting feminism.
Bryant
chervilant
(8,267 posts)about "militant feminists" belies that stance. "Militant feminists" is a dog whistle, much like "thugs."
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)He's repeating the argument that others made on his behalf that militant feminists drove him off Twitter. That's the terminology they used.
Bryant
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)whistle.
Thanks for clarifying...in such a supportive manner.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)I reread what he said. In light of his quoted statement, I stand by what I said.
Also, would you try to be civil in your discourse? Most of your past posts I've read have struck me as polite and thoughtful...
BTW, if a feminist tells you that "militant feminists" is a dog whistle, you might want to reconsider using that terminology, or others might think you are sexist.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)You don't have the whole context to the situation, and you aren't interested in getting the context. So you condemn Whedon - fair enough. I disagree. And to be clear I'm not saying that the term isn't generally a dog whistle, I'm saying that in this context he is repeating what others have said.
At any rate- that's fine - let's throw Joss Whedon out - who's left in Hollywood to uphold feminist values?
Bryant
chervilant
(8,267 posts)particularly on a democratic forum.
First, as for "getting the context," I am in the process of so doing. Second, I think "condemn" is too severe a word for my take on Whedon's quote. And, finally, I'm not saying "throw Joss Whedon out."
Bryant, we are all--male and female--socialized within the context of a patriarchal, sexist society. While I am glad that more men are becoming involved in efforts to end the arbitrary hierarchies promulgated by the patriarchy, we have a long road ahead of us. At this point in our evolution, I don't think we have much time remaining to effect change.
I want to point out that I did not make the observations I made to cause you or anyone else to feel defensive. I find that sexism, like racism, is a hot button topic, and people get uncomfortable when confronted with their own isms. As I said herein above, we are all socialized within the context of a sexist society, so we all bear the burden of the language, the attitudes, and the assumptions commensurate with sexism, even when we are actively advocating for change.
ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)I haven't followed this story, and I'll have to see the movie.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)She sees part of her past; and then has a shocking revelation - the revelation is problematic to some (and I can see where they are coming from); but i'm not sure I want to talk about that as some people (like you) might not have seen the movie.
Bryant
ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)You're too old to believe in fairy tales, Joss. Hoisted by his own petard.
ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)The only male?
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Or as Will Rogers put it "I am not a member of an organized political party. I am a Democrat."
kiva
(4,373 posts)Pretty sure he's not.
DeadLetterOffice
(1,352 posts)I'm sure Joss isn't perfect, but anyone who's seen Buffy or Firefly should be pretty clear that his female characters are not exactly wilting flowers waiting to be rescued.
kiva
(4,373 posts)have actually seen his work, because I'm with you, I find it hard to believe that someone who created those characters is a closet sexist.
If you aren't familiar with Buffy, check out Joss' work compared to the Twilight dreck:
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and i was more looking for information on what this was about, than anything else.
kiva
(4,373 posts)because I haven't been following it. However I have watched two of his TV series, and both have very strong female characters. If you haven't seen Buffy, I highly recommend it; a colleague who taught a class on contemporary cultural history used clips from the series to show one of the ways feminism had become part of pop culture.
JHB
(37,160 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)He's always been a passionate feminist.