The thing about Bernie Sanders and guns...

[DanTex]

He was never going to be a serious candidate to begin with. All he could do was "change the dialog" and bring Hillary to the left a bit.

The problem is, now we realize that he is pretty right-wing when it comes to guns, including not just immunity from lawsuits for gun manufacturers, but even voting against the Brady Bill, which is the only reason there is a national requirement for background checks in the first place.

If he were a legitimate candidate, that would be different. Sure, no candidate is perfect. I'd be happy to see him in the White House, guns notwithstanding. But he's not going to be. The only purpose of supporting his candidacy is to send a message. And now the message includes the phrase "the 30,000 gun deaths a year are not really a big deal, just a distraction."

[leftofcool]

1. Gun control will never be a distraction for the majority of Democrats.

Oh wait, Bernie is not a Democrat.

[Cali_Democrat]

2. It's interesting to see the Bernie supporters aligning themselves with the gunners on this issue

all because of Bernie.

Talk about cult of personality.

I'm seeing Bernie supporters making the same arguments as the gunners in the RKBA forum. Something I would have never imagined shortly after Sandy Hook.

[DanTex]

4. It really is. And amusing.

Suddenly, out of necessity, a bunch of otherwise reasonable progressives have discovered and fallen in love with NRA talking points.

Legal immunity for gun manufacturers? Makes perfect sense! Obviously!! LOL.

[KittyWampus]

21. SOME Sanders supporters. I am okay saying he's from a rural state that hunts-

but then I temper my far-left proclivities with pragmatism.

I also at least try to be tolerant of others opinions when the differ even just slightly from mine.

[cali]

3. lol. silly. Hillary is so much further to the right on so many issues

her record on economic issues on war. HIllary has "evolved" on so many issues it's hard to keep track- like immigration and criminal justice.

And yeah, he's not going to win, but he is going to shake things up.

and if you want to blame Sanders for gun deaths, hey, I feel fine about blaming Hillary for over a million deaths in Iraq, not to mention all those on Libya.

[DanTex]

6. You missed the point. Yes, she is. But she's a legitimate candidate, and he's a pipe dream.

Is he going to shake things up? I'm thinking probably not. A few primaries until he is hopelessly behind and concedes.

All he's accomplished so far is to get a bunch of supposed progressives to parrot NRA talking points. But I will admit, that's something.

[cali]

12. primarie are a long way off and anything can happen

plus O'Malley is getting in'.

And it's utter bullshit to say that's all he's accomplished. He has the MSM talking now about the pressure on her. He is changing the conversations. And it is a populist moment. Clearly Hillary knows this, thus her transparent and pitiful faux populism.

She will be a less than stellar candidate in the GE, and has a good shot of being beaten. Should that happen, I will be blaming the people have been pushing her for President for well over a decade. `In polls Hillary's favorable ratings are now less than her unfavorables.

[DanTex]

14. Yes, anything can happen. The slogan of lottery ticket buyers and Sanders supporters everywhere.

I agree, anything can happen. And I also agree that that's the strongest viability argument that Bernie Sanders has. Which places his candidacy in the same category as my bid to win Wimbledon this summer.

And it's utter bullshit to say that's all he's accomplished. He has the MSM talking now about the pressure on her. He is changing the conversations. And it is a populist moment. Clearly Hillary knows this, thus her transparent and pitiful faux populism.

OK, maybe. But you have to admit, he has been able to demonstrate the remarkable ideological malleabality of "progressives" on the gun issue. If Hillary had voted for legal immunity for gun companies, she's be getting destroyed for it on DU.

Yeah, he can change (slightly) the conversation. For a short while. But, as you say, all it is really going to bring is "transparent and faux populism". Well, no, I don't actually agree with that, but I do agree that Bernie isn't going to significantly change who Hillary is and what she stands for. I mean, seriously, if you think that Hillary's "pivot to the left" is just for show, that means that Bernie's candidacy truly is pointless.

She will be a less than stellar candidate in the GE, and has a good shot of being beaten. Should that happen, I will be blaming the people have been pushing her for President for well over a decade. `In polls Hillary's favorable ratings are now less than her unfavorables.

Yeah, she might be vulnerable. That's a problem. Which is why, by far, the most important thing is to make sure she wins rather than give ammunition to the GOP and sow discontent among progressives. Because if she does lose, it won't be pretty.

[cali]

24. uh, fail again, Dan, old boy..

Have a problem with reading comprehension? Miss this? "And yeah, he's not going to win..." and sorry, but I don't buy lottery tickets- except for stocking stuffers.

And yeah, it wouldn't shock me if Hillary imploded in some way. No, I don't want that to happen, but with her history of dishonesty, I wouldn't be shocked. No, I don't think Bernie would win the primary if that did happen.

I can't speak for other people, but my history here backs up my assertion that gun control has not been a big issue for me. I think it's impossible to pass, a losing issue for dems, and I don't support things like federal control of conceal or open carry at all. Hell, I've never supported it in my state.

Here's the thing: I think Bernie has the opportunity to lay the foundation for a progressive populist movement. And I'm sure as hell not the only one; quite a few very smart people have been writing about just that. So although it would be nice to believe Hillary isn't just pivoting for votes, nah, her history makes that unlikely. She's in up to her neck with the big money people. Money=Access. Access, more often than not, mean influence.

And if she loses, it's our loss and her fault as well as the fault of all those shoving her down our throats for nearly 15 years

[DanTex]

29. I'm not old!

I believe you that gun control isn't a big issue for you. Fair enough. Some people don't care about those "other people" who live in gun-violence ridden neighborhoods, while others don't care about the "other people" who lose their jobs to free trade agreements. Different strokes for different folks.

But most DUers actually do support gun control, or at least they did, and now they're bending over backwards to defend Bernie's votes. Not you, but look around, it's happening. Or else to minimize gun control as an issue, conveniently forgetting that in terms of American lives, it completely dwarves all the wars we've been in since (or even including) WWII.

Also, claiming that gun control is impossible to pass, coming from you, is a bit rich, because you must realize that creating an effective populist progressive movement, something that would seriously challenge the hegemony of banks and large corporations, is just as impossible if not more so. The NRA is powerful, but corporate lobbies are more powerful.

And, yes, if Hillary loses because progressives sit out because she's not pure enough, then those progressives (and the people who endlessly bashed her) will share in the blame.

[KittyWampus]

23. He's not an absolute pipe dream. A long shot. But it's a mistake to underestimate him.

[frylock]

5. We need another 30 threads admonishing us that Bernie was never going to be a serious candidate..

that's why ya'll are shitting your collective pants.

[DanTex]

7. Oh, yes, Hillary is positively terrified.

Seriously, if Intrade was still around, I don't even know if I'd bet 50,000-to-1 against Bernie. I might only go to 20,000-to-1. It's remarkable how much ground he's gaining. He might even get 10% of the primary vote!

[frylock]

10. I'm sure Hillary is cool like a fool in a swimming pool..

her most ardent supporters here? Not so much. I look forward to another 20 Sanders is a gun nut threads though. Comedy gold.

[DanTex]

13. Yes gun violence is hilarious, obviously. No argument there.

But, really, if there is any comedy here, it's watching supposed progressives get in touch with their inner NRA nutjob, you know, because Bernie.

[frylock]

35. I'm laughing at you, son.

[DanTex]

39. Glad to be of service! "Laughter is wine for the soul."

[frylock]

41. Comedy gold, bruh..

comedy gold.

[bunnies]

9. Patience, Frylock.

The threads will come.

[frylock]

11. I'm sure they will..

only a week in, and look at this shit show. The accusations of gun nuttery seem a bit premature. I suppose they felt they were going to sink him with that one.

[Mojorabbit]

43. I am loving it. nt

[frylock]

44. it's very telling

[winter is coming]

45. The smell of desperation is so invigorating. n/t

[Cheese Sandwich]

8. He does support gun control. He voted for expanded background checks and the assault weapons ban

Some people want to act like Bernie Sanders is a gun nut who is against any gun control and always votes with the NRA.

It simply isn't true.

For one thing I think his position has evolved over time. So if people want to be honest, they will look at his more current ideas. Those are much more important than something from 20 years ago.

For another thing he has not always agreed with the most strident anti-gun people. I'm OK with that. I don't want to ban all guns, and neither do most Americans. Most Americans support background checks, and banning assault weapons. Bernie is right on the same page with America on this issue, as with so many others.

Sanders Votes for Background Checks, Assault Weapons Ban

Wednesday, April 17, 2013
WASHINGTON, April 17 – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) today voted for expanded background checks on gun buyers and for a ban on assault weapons but the Senate rejected those central planks of legislation inspired by the shootings of 20 first-grade students and six teachers in Newtown, Conn.

“Nobody believes that gun control by itself is going to end the horrors we have seen in Newtown, Conn., Aurora, Colo., Blacksburg, Va., Tucson, Ariz. and other American communities,” Sanders said. “There is a growing consensus, however, in Vermont and across America that we have got to do as much as we can to end the cold-blooded, mass murders of innocent people. I believe very strongly that we also have got to address the mental health crisis in our country and make certain that help is available for people who may be a danger to themselves and others,” Sanders added.

The amendment on expanded background checks needed 60 votes to pass but only 54 senators voted for it. “To my mind it makes common sense to keep these weapons out of the hands of people with criminal records or mental health histories,” Sanders said.

Under current federal law, background checks are not performed for tens of thousands of sales – up to 40 percent of all gun transfers – at gun shows or over the Internet. The amendment would have required background checks for all gun sales in commercial settings regardless of whether the seller is a licensed dealer. The compromise proposal would have exempted sales between “family, friends, and neighbors.”

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/sanders-votes-for-background-checks-assault-weapons-ban

[Hoyt]

17. If he meant it, then he should come out for banning all semiautomatic weapons, including handguns.

How long is it going to take him to state where he stands?

[Cheese Sandwich]

25. Do the American people support banning handguns, or just internet liberals?

[Hoyt]

36. Does the thought scare you?

[arcane1]

26. Don't go bringing honest arguments into this! We're trying to be hyperbolic!

[cherokeeprogressive]

15. As IF this is the hill the Democratic Party will choose to die on...

What a bunch of fucking disingenuous bullshit.

[DanTex]

16. No, they're not going to die on the hill of Bernie Sanders. Good point.

[cherokeeprogressive]

20. The TRUTH of the matter is... and you KNOW this

is that gun control will be at best a peripheral issue in the 2016 General Election.

You keep spouting the bullshit though. As the saying goes; repeat something enough times and people will start to believe it.

Gun control as an election issue in 2016?

[DanTex]

22. Yes. And the other truth is, Bernie Sanders will be a non-candidate.

Actually, Bernie and significant progress on gun control have a lot in common (despite the fact that he paradoxically opposes it). Both would be great, but neither is going to happen.

[arcane1]

27. He doesn't "oppose gun control." That's a lie.

Why bring lies into the conversation, if the truth is good enough?

[leftofcool]

31. Then why did he vote against the Brady Bill?:

[arcane1]

33. He said he believed it should be left to the states

If he "opposes gun control" then explain his votes in post #8.

[DanTex]

32. He voted against the Brady Bill and in favor of legal immunity for gun manufacturers.

[arcane1]

34. And he explained why he voted against it, and it wasn't due to "opposition"

If he "opposes gun control" then explain post #8.

[DanTex]

37. Interesting, so he voted against something he supported. That's the kind of guy you can trust!

[arcane1]

42. Nope, that's your deliberate distortion of the facts.

Why are you being so dishonest about this?

[frylock]

38. Are you in favor of holding Stanley tool liable for misuse of a screwdriver?

if someone gets killed because of the reckless behavior of someone behind the wheel, should the auto manufacturer be held liable?

[DanTex]

46. Good point! Gun companies should be treated exactly the same as Stanley.

Except they're not. Because there is a special law protecting gun companies. I'm certainly not in favor of giving Stanley special immunity, I think they should play by the same rules as any other corporation.

Obviously.

I still haven't heard any of the newly converted NRAers (or the old ones either) give any legitimate reason why the gun industry should get special treatment. If you think that the legal system is too tough on the poor corporations generally, and they should all get a break, I could understand your argument, sort of, although it would be strange coming from the Bernie Sanders crowd. But this absurdity that gives special priviliges to, of all things, gun manufacturers, is just beyond insane.

[Rex]

19. It's election season, so a special few here will spend this year stirring the pot in GD.

Why anyone still takes them seriously, is beyond me.

[frylock]

40. nobody does

[Rex]

18. Well at least your thread is meant to unify DU and not divide it!

Yepyepyep!

[DanTex]

30. Well, either that, or else he simply doesn't get a lot of votes.